Ideal PvP battle length poll... Please vote

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  January 2010 edited January 2010

  A3
  B Probably unending. If you build really for survival like that your damage is too low to kill much. I don't know what to answer here cause of that.
  C3

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  January 2010 edited January 2010

  A-2
  Both made of glass, whoever takes control and crushes first
  
  B- I'm going to get a drink
  Two defensive powerhouses are only going to be capable of gank-killing or finding someone afk or stomping someone trying to learn how to play, and shame on them for that last part
  
  C- Between 4 and 5
  This is what I strive for. Not a glass cannon, but not a wall of unmovable HP. I have some attacks, a few "Ohshi" buttons that have multiple functions, solid defense. A fight against someone built like me, if we're both on our A-game and just get caught between recharge timers, should come down to timing attacks or utilities, use of LoS, positioning... you know, tactics!
  
  D- I like the letter D

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  January 2010 edited January 2010

  A3
  B7 (but should be near infinite)
  C4
  
  There should always be the possibility of somekind of counter even if two glass cannons meet, otherwise it's just who presses the button combination for LOL1SHOT first.

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  January 2010 edited January 2010

  A) 1. Maaaybe 2.
  7-infinite if properly specced
  C) 4 to 5

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  January 2010 edited January 2010

  A) 1
  1
  C) 1

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  January 2010 edited January 2010

  Sixtysix wrote:

  I would like to see an established ideal baseline “match length” set by the developers based on community vote or response that they factor into their "balance equation". So if the fastest a match should play out is say 15 seconds then the highest DPS possible should take around 15 seconds to eat through someone with no defense in an avenger role and so on. So what does the PvP community think?
  
  A. Assuming two players in avenger built to be the highest DPS builds possible, what is the minimum amount of time this match should last?
  

  1. Under 5 seconds
  2. 5-10 seconds
  3. 10-15 seconds
  4. 15-20 seconds
  5. 20 – 25 seconds
  6. 25- 30 seconds
  7. Over 30 seconds

  
  B. Assuming two players in protector with built to have the highest defensive builds possible, what is the minimum amount of time this match should last?
  

  1. Under 20 seconds
  2. 20 – 40 seconds
  3. 40 – 60 seconds
  4. 60 – 80 seconds
  5. 80 – 100 seconds
  6. 100 – 120 seconds
  7. Over 2 minutes

  
  C. Assuming two players in guardian with equal consideration given to offense and defense (or A. vs. B.), what is the minimum amount of time this match should last?

  1. Under 10 seconds
  2. 10 – 20 seconds
  3. 20 – 30 seconds
  4. 30 – 40 seconds
  5. 40 – 50 seconds
  6. 50 – 60 seconds
  7. Over 1 minute

  
  A) Over 25-30 Seconds
  
  Over 2 Minutes
  
  C) 50-60 Seconds.
  
  I love a more involved battle.

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  January 2010 edited January 2010

  A. under 5 seconds...enough time to fully say "oh shi..." and do something about it, and have that something mean something.
  B. 80-100 seconds minimum...enough time to get whittled down after you pop some clicky defenses and your opponent really got in some good licks...typical time should be several minutes at least.
  C. 20-30 seconds minimum, assuming medium builds, or an unstoppable force vs an immovable object, it should take a little bit of circling...we're all heroes, heroes last a couple of panels at least.
  
  Edit: Yeah, I kind of rethought some of it.

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  January 2010 edited January 2010

  should make a new header D where u take into account Smoke Grenade lol lol lol

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  January 2010 edited January 2010

  A. 1
  B. 7
  C. 7

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  January 2010 edited January 2010

  Sixtysix wrote:

  I would like to see an established ideal baseline “match length” set by the developers based on community vote or response that they factor into their "balance equation". So if the fastest a match should play out is say 15 seconds then the highest DPS possible should take around 15 seconds to eat through someone with no defense in an avenger role and so on. So what does the PvP community think?
  
  A. Assuming two players in avenger built to be the highest DPS builds possible, what is the minimum amount of time this match should last?
  

  1. Under 5 seconds
  2. 5-10 seconds
  3. 10-15 seconds
  4. 15-20 seconds
  5. 20 – 25 seconds
  6. 25- 30 seconds
  7. Over 30 seconds

  
  B. Assuming two players in protector with built to have the highest defensive builds possible, what is the minimum amount of time this match should last?
  

  1. Under 20 seconds
  2. 20 – 40 seconds
  3. 40 – 60 seconds
  4. 60 – 80 seconds
  5. 80 – 100 seconds
  6. 100 – 120 seconds
  7. Over 2 minutes

  
  C. Assuming two players in guardian with equal consideration given to offense and defense (or A. vs. B.), what is the minimum amount of time this match should last?

  1. Under 10 seconds
  2. 10 – 20 seconds
  3. 20 – 30 seconds
  4. 30 – 40 seconds
  5. 40 – 50 seconds
  6. 50 – 60 seconds
  7. Over 1 minute

  
  A/3 : 10-15 sec
  B/5 : 100-120 sec (though this probably won't end)
  C/6 : 50-60 sec. I like a long fight, so long as there's an end in sight.

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  January 2010 edited January 2010

  Reading a lot of these responses: you guys are recognizing that the poll is asking for the minimum time for this to happen...that is, one party got RAWKED and it's the fastest that a toon can be dropped.
  
  In any case, people sound like they're indicating that fights should last longer than they do currently?

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  January 2010 edited January 2010

  quixotic1 wrote:

  Reading a lot of these responses: you guys are recognizing that the poll is asking for the minimum time for this to happen...that is, one party got RAWKED and it's the fastest that a toon can be dropped.
  
  In any case, people sound like they're indicating that fights should last longer than they do currently?

  
  Yeah I am getting that impression too. Hopefully, once we get enough responses, we can take a "average" of what we have and maybe just maybe the devs can use that for some sort of balance.

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  January 2010 edited January 2010

  a 1
  b 1
  c 1

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  January 2010 edited January 2010

  3, 4, 3
  
  /10char

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  January 2010 edited January 2010

  I can't believe you're still talking about it like it can be salvaged.

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  February 2010 edited February 2010

  7
  7
  7
  
  I like 7s

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  February 2010 edited February 2010

  A really good game-designy question. Let me throw in my own two cents (bear in mind I'm not on the powers team, so I speak as a player, not as a dev):
  
  A) 2
  4
  C) 2
  
  A) Even in a fast game like Champs, it's no fun to get rocked in < 5 seconds. Assuming that the players are going into a fight flat-footed (no extra endurance), they should have to build up to face-melting. One or two good face-melts should do it.
  
  In a perfect game world, there shouldn't be stalemates. I'm not suggesting any specific changes to make it happen, but I'd like to make sure any duel has a possibility to end (question was minimum time, not average time).
  
  C) Again, minimum time. Average time should probably be more like 20-30 seconds; enough to develop some strategy but not enough to drag.

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  February 2010 edited February 2010

  Lucid wrote:

  A really good game-designy question. Let me throw in my own two cents (bear in mind I'm not on the powers team, so I speak as a player, not as a dev):
  
  A) 2
  4
  C) 2
  
  A) Even in a fast game like Champs, it's no fun to get rocked in < 5 seconds. Assuming that the players are going into a fight flat-footed (no extra endurance), they should have to build up to face-melting. One or two good face-melts should do it.
  
  In a perfect game world, there shouldn't be stalemates. I'm not suggesting any specific changes to make it happen, but I'd like to make sure any duel has a possibility to end (question was minimum time, not average time).
  
  C) Again, minimum time. Average time should probably be more like 20-30 seconds; enough to develop some strategy but not enough to drag.

  
  Are you guys ready to bash your head into your keyboards on Friday?

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  February 2010 edited February 2010

  One problem with a theory of 5s or more vs an Avenger is that it implies a dps of maybe 900 (a 40). Currently, it's possible for a Sentinel build to heal at that rate indefinitely. As long as you have spammable healing, it really can't take longer to drop someone than it takes for them to fully recover, or the answer becomes 'forever'.

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  February 2010 edited February 2010

  A:2
  B:4
  C:3
  
  I'm not big on PvP, but these times look good to me

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  February 2010 edited February 2010

  A. Smoke Grenade
  B. Smoke Grenade
  C. Smoke Grenade
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  What? It's the truth.

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  February 2010 edited February 2010

  Anxiety wrote:

  A. Smoke Grenade
  B. Smoke Grenade
  C. Smoke Grenade
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  What? It's the truth.

  
  Rotf /signed + true.

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  February 2010 edited February 2010

  So, let's suppose we decide 'B, B, B' is a good answer to this poll. How do we achieve this?
  
  Currently, without expendables, clickies, blocking, healing, fleeing, debuff layering, and PA toggles, a LV40 avenger using an offensive passive can do ~1000 dps (pre-mitigation; this includes some time spent energy building) and will be dropped after around 5,000 damage (pre-mitigation); a Lv40 defender using a defensive passive might be down to ~500 dps and will be dropped after around 20,000 damage (pre-mitigation, and assumes a fairly average defensive build). It's not really possible to have a balanced build, if you've got a defensive passive you'll look a lot like the defender, if you've got an offensive passive you'll look a lot like the avenger. These numbers are are at the low end of the desired range -- it's a 5s fight for the avengers, 40s fight for the defenders.
  
  Now, since we were looking at minimum times, we'll ignore defensive actions for the moment and just look at offense. Without involving expendables, clickies plus debuffing can probably cut the avenger/avenger fight to about 3s, defender/defender to about 25s. Once we toss in expendables, it crumbles down to around 2s and around 15s.
  
  That's low. Now, the easiest way of addressing this, without changing numbers on many many powers, would be to double PC hit points. That's still too short once we toss in expendables, but nerfing certain expendables seems justified (*cough*Qularr Mutagen/Rampage Biologicals), or just making them energy forms that don't stack with one another or with other energy forms. However, then we run into a new problem: in PvP as it now stands, it's very easy to break contact and full heal. Teleport is the most visible offender here, but most travel powers are hard to follow if you make a modest effort at evasion.

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  February 2010 edited February 2010

  Pantagruel wrote:

  So, let's suppose we decide 'B, B, B' is a good answer to this poll. How do we achieve this?
  
  Currently, without expendables, clickies, blocking, healing, fleeing, debuff layering, and PA toggles, a LV40 avenger using an offensive passive can do ~1000 dps (pre-mitigation; this includes some time spent energy building) and will be dropped after around 5,000 damage (pre-mitigation); a Lv40 defender using a defensive passive might be down to ~500 dps and will be dropped after around 20,000 damage (pre-mitigation, and assumes a fairly average defensive build). It's not really possible to have a balanced build, if you've got a defensive passive you'll look a lot like the defender, if you've got an offensive passive you'll look a lot like the avenger. These numbers are are at the low end of the desired range -- it's a 5s fight for the avengers, 40s fight for the defenders.
  
  Now, since we were looking at minimum times, we'll ignore defensive actions for the moment and just look at offense. Without involving expendables, clickies plus debuffing can probably cut the avenger/avenger fight to about 3s, defender/defender to about 25s. Once we toss in expendables, it crumbles down to around 2s and around 15s.
  
  That's low. Now, the easiest way of addressing this, without changing numbers on many many powers, would be to double PC hit points. That's still too short once we toss in expendables, but nerfing certain expendables seems justified (*cough*Qularr Mutagen/Rampage Biologicals), or just making them energy forms that don't stack with one another or with other energy forms. However, then we run into a new problem: in PvP as it now stands, it's very easy to break contact and full heal. Teleport is the most visible offender here, but most travel powers are hard to follow if you make a modest effort at evasion.

  
  
  
  Let's start with the base values: Say 'B,B,B' is '7.5 seconds,15 seconds, 30 seconds'. If: Health/Minimum seconds until death = Max DPS allowed

  • Avenger = 3583/7.5 = 478 max DPS. (40% more damage then guardian)
  • Guardian: 5137/15 = 342 max DPS.
  • Protector: 6409/30 = 214 max DPS. (37% less damage then guardian)

  
  Right here it shows the Developers current balance and the 'players preference' would be very far off base.
  Take PA running 3 toggles in R3 electric form and starting with a R3 energy form:

  • .5 seconds: Start R2, Teflon Mini Gun = 3.5 seconds total run time for 1,000 damage
  • .5 seconds: Start R3 Concussor Beam = 3 seconds total run time for 4,410 damage
  • 2.5 seconds: Full Charge R3 Chest Beam = 2.5 seconds total run time for 5,910 damage
  • Total time = 3.5 seconds for 11,320 damage using 134 energy. Roughly 3,234 dps. Average gear will take off about 17% of that so 2,684 dps after smashing/energy bonus in gear. Far far greater then the 478 max dps if we want an all out offensive battle to last 7.5 seconds.

  These are actual numbers from test last night using only gear I got from the debugger and 2 catalysts, this will include the debuff in Teflon Rounds and Chest Beam. REC/END were my superstats and this used about 134 energy... if I used immolation for the energy form it would have ate less energy.
  
  
  Fix:
  
  Keep Guardian as your base and then adjust so that, in the case of this example, Guardian vs. Guardian lasts 15 seconds. I this example you would get:

  • Avenger = 40% more damage output then guardian from.
  • Protector = 37% more damage mitigation then guardian form.

  
  If we find that an offensive form guardian can put out 1000 DPS , and a defensive from guardian can mitigate about 40% of that with gear . This is 600 DPS or about 75% more then what we want regarding health in a even face off. (Offensive vs defensive guardian)
  
  One way to counter this, as you suggest, is to add 75% more health to each of the forms. Another way would be to do what COX did and put some sort of auto resist on each player when they enter PvP. In this case all damage done to you in PvP is reduced by 57% before the regular damage equations take place. Personally, I think the latter would be the easiest fix.
  
  The above, however, is only half the fix. The second half deals with the forms:
  
  * Avenger should put out 40% more damage than using the same powers in Guardian form.
  I think this could be done by buffing everything offensive by 20%... so 20% more base damage, and 20% more damage bonus in an energy form etc.
  
  * Protector should mitigate 37% more damage using the same powers in Guardian from... so say you get 31% mitigation from INV in guardian, you would get 1.8 more value in Protector. or it would have 56% mitigation value.

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  February 2010 edited February 2010

  Sixtysix wrote:

  One way to counter this, as you suggest, is to add 75% more health to each of the forms. Another way would be to do what COX did and put some sort of auto resist on each player when they enter PvP. In this case all damage done to you in PvP is reduced by 57% before the regular damage equations take place. Personally, I think the latter would be the easiest fix.

  Unless you add healing resist as well as damage resist, the result is degenerate stalemated fights, which can already be a problem in lower tiers (I was in a T2 UTC today that got timed out due to stalemate -- the game was at 7-0 when I entered (along with, I think, one other char), and it pushed up to 8-4 (due to the other team not realizing the odds had changed, I assume) before everyone went totally defensive and the kills stopped happening. \As far as I could tell, just about every char in the game has a passive defense (usually regen), no char had crippling challenge, most chars had teleport, no chars had a meaningful hold. Healing is a problem already in PvP -- my level 40 support char can heal 750 dps basically forever, and there's better healers than me. A benefit of extra hit points is that it doesn't change the balance of offense to defense and healing.

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  February 2010 edited February 2010

  Pantagruel wrote:

  Unless you add healing resist as well as damage resist, the result is degenerate stalemated fights, which can already be a problem in lower tiers (I was in a T2 UTC today that got timed out due to stalemate -- the game was at 7-0 when I entered (along with, I think, one other char), and it pushed up to 8-4 (due to the other team not realizing the odds had changed, I assume) before everyone went totally defensive and the kills stopped happening. \As far as I could tell, just about every char in the game has a passive defense (usually regen), no char had crippling challenge, most chars had teleport, no chars had a meaningful hold. Healing is a problem already in PvP -- my level 40 support char can heal 750 dps basically forever, and there's better healers than me. A benefit of extra hit points is that it doesn't change the balance of offense to defense and healing.

  
  The stalemates in T2 can be summed up with 2 powers Regeneration + Block; well I guess you can throw TP in there too. One player with Crippling Challenge will change the entire battle there; I know this from experience. So the problem is just how effective block can be at low levels, especially with regeneration. This is where you get the Block vs. Crippling Challenge debaters. Block is overpowered there and crippling challenge completely destroys it... two extremes on the spectrum. I have often found T2 to be a battle of which team has someone with crippling challege on it; when one team has it and the other does not more times then not 15-0 is the outcome
  
  750 Heal per second at level 40 does not much worry me. Average PA builds can spike well over 3,000 dps at 40. Other toons can maintain well over 1,000 dps basically forever. I am also going to guess your 750 number includes active healing... meaning you are sustaining a heal power and not doing damage.

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  February 2010 edited February 2010

  Sixtysix wrote:

  750 Heal per second at level 40 does not much worry me. PA can spike well over 3,000 dps at 40. Other toons can maintain well over 1,000 dps basically forever. I am also going to guess your 750 number includes active healing... meaning you are sustaining a heal power and not doing damage.

  With current damage values, 750 healing per second isn't a problem, granted. However, if we want a short fight (avenger vs avenger) to still last 5 seconds, well, that means even in a short fight you're only talking 800 dps or so, and 750 hps will almost totally negate that.

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  February 2010 edited February 2010

  Pantagruel wrote:

  With current damage values, 750 healing per second isn't a problem, granted. However, if we want a short fight (avenger vs avenger) to still last 5 seconds, well, that means even in a short fight you're only talking 800 dps or so, and 750 hps will almost totally negate that.

  
  Healing is the inverse of damage (+ or - health points). A balance fix would effect them both. So if healing is not out of whack now, it will not be after a fix. If it is out of whack now, the ratio of what you can heal to damage can be adjusted.

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• Archived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User

  February 2010 edited February 2010

  A. (2) reason being is b/c both are in avenger mode so its like a draw really. both have low hp and very high dmg almost bordering ononeshot kill.
  
  B. (7) reason is b/c it like wraping 2 people in tank titanium armor and giving both of them a baby screwdirver and saying now have fun. there is no victor in that. time itself would be "hey guys i gotta go now you can finish this some other lifespan."
  
  C. (3) average attck vs defense (which imo is wat pvp really is) it allcomes down t the player. thi is where tatics and skill really come in. a true match to grab a drink and popcorn and say "LET IT BEGIN!!!"
  
  
  ......but that opinion on it

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