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The glass cannon, and the problem with CO
Archived Post
Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
There is a very simple problem at work, that permeates most if not all of the nerf this/buff that threads. In a nutshell:
1. The game is too easy. It's entirely possible to build a ranged character that can one shot entire groups of mobs including the villain 2 levels or more above your character.
2. It's entirely possible to build said character that can do this, and also have a pretty much foolproof tank like defense.
I salute the design idea that everyone can cherry pick whatever powers they like, from a vast skillset. It's quite a bit of fun to play around with all of these combinations and see what you can come up with, and I've had a good time doing just that. That being said, in practice, it's going to be impossible to ever balance this.
What you've done, is created the dreaded "tank mage". This has been a long standing design no no for a lot of reasons.
There has been a long history of players whining to be more self sufficient, and to be able to solo content, log on for an hour or so and go about their day. This is the game we have in CO. It's fun in the short term, but the long term and deeper game play mechanics are actually hurt by it. There is no sense of accomplishment in CO, because there is very little to no risk vs reward at play.
I know there is a huge volume of playerbase that believes this is what they want out of a game, but the retention of customer base for new MMOs continues to be on a downward spiral, that is only going to get worse the more games that come out that are more or less easy mode for the solo player.
I encourage you to rethink some of the penalties and bonuses for certain powers. Taking high damage powers as part of your powerset, should carry some kind of defensive penalty for doing so. The lack of the "glass cannon" is at the root of the problem in this game. It should not be possible to build a character that has one shot capability, along with more or less god mode defense. I can site many examples of builds that are exactly that if you'd like.
This would also solve your melee problems. Melee character traditionally, and for good reason, have been the "tanks". They are there to hold agro, and keep the mobs off of the squishy players that would get eaten should they overnuke and pull agro. That dynamic is completely lacking in this game. I can "tank" instances with my damage oriented range character in 5 mans, that's just wrong.
I do really appreciate the effort to implement such a deep combination of skillsets, I just feel you need to rethink how some of those choices effect character survivability.
1. The game is too easy. It's entirely possible to build a ranged character that can one shot entire groups of mobs including the villain 2 levels or more above your character.
2. It's entirely possible to build said character that can do this, and also have a pretty much foolproof tank like defense.
I salute the design idea that everyone can cherry pick whatever powers they like, from a vast skillset. It's quite a bit of fun to play around with all of these combinations and see what you can come up with, and I've had a good time doing just that. That being said, in practice, it's going to be impossible to ever balance this.
What you've done, is created the dreaded "tank mage". This has been a long standing design no no for a lot of reasons.
There has been a long history of players whining to be more self sufficient, and to be able to solo content, log on for an hour or so and go about their day. This is the game we have in CO. It's fun in the short term, but the long term and deeper game play mechanics are actually hurt by it. There is no sense of accomplishment in CO, because there is very little to no risk vs reward at play.
I know there is a huge volume of playerbase that believes this is what they want out of a game, but the retention of customer base for new MMOs continues to be on a downward spiral, that is only going to get worse the more games that come out that are more or less easy mode for the solo player.
I encourage you to rethink some of the penalties and bonuses for certain powers. Taking high damage powers as part of your powerset, should carry some kind of defensive penalty for doing so. The lack of the "glass cannon" is at the root of the problem in this game. It should not be possible to build a character that has one shot capability, along with more or less god mode defense. I can site many examples of builds that are exactly that if you'd like.
This would also solve your melee problems. Melee character traditionally, and for good reason, have been the "tanks". They are there to hold agro, and keep the mobs off of the squishy players that would get eaten should they overnuke and pull agro. That dynamic is completely lacking in this game. I can "tank" instances with my damage oriented range character in 5 mans, that's just wrong.
I do really appreciate the effort to implement such a deep combination of skillsets, I just feel you need to rethink how some of those choices effect character survivability.
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I used to hunt tank mages in UO. They usually had the best stuff and lots of reagents. They also usually had no idea how to fight as "Corp Por! Corp Por!" had been their entire life up to the moment they met me.
Ah...the memories...
UO flashback! :eek:
Especially if a certain character with a name quite similar to yours snoops their backpack and steal their Black Pearl during the fight
Very glassy!
It is true that CO has a very different feel than most trinity-based games. But a boss fight where everybody tanks for a little bit, with the boss ping-ponging around as folks draw aggro? That can be fun.
Yeah, if every boss ends up being "zerg the bag of hitpoints" that won't be good. But I think it's a little early to say "nope, back to the system everyone else uses".
Not seeing it. The only way they can do that is to make an enemy UN-tankable. Which is kind of stupid, but I guess that's what they tried to do with Clarence. Still, it didn't stop the ranged portion of the "tank-mage" from kicking in and just blasting Clarence away.
Tank-mages aren't the problem. Poor design of the game's content is a much larger problem.
But tank-mages certainly exist in this game. And the only way to make them worse at tanking, would be to make tanking in general worse. Which gets back to ... poor design.
Hehe, isn't there a saying, "be careful what you wish for, you might get it"?
It's like, we want an IWIN button, and when we get it we get bored pretty quickly . This may be no problem for the individual player (after all, the individual player can just suck the game dry and move on). But it is a problem for the devs of an MMO, who want people to stick around.
However, I don't think the situation is quite as gloomy as all that. I think it's still possible to balance a game of tank mages AND have teaming. It's just a different type of gameplay and the risks and rewards need to be different.
I keep bringing up the comparison with CoV - the CoV archetypes were pretty much self-sufficient too, just like CO toons. Yet it was still possible to have great fun teaming in CoV.
IOW, I think there's some truth in the interdependencies (Trinity) argument, but it's not an absolute. It's not the only way of designing gameplay with good risk/reward for both solo and teaming, just one of the easiest, in the context of "damage is king".
This game is notably harder than EQ used to be (lol auto-attack and afk). But in EQ, soloing was considered to require significant skill. By dividing combat roles across three people instead of one, you are adding "fake difficulty". By that I mean no one individuals job is any harder, (if anything, the individuals job is 3 times easier) but because the roles are split up you are required to haul around two other people in order to do anything. Which makes combat harder, if not impossible, for an individual because they are denied the basic tools that combat is designed around.
Some of the problem with this game is that people are trying to pigeonhole trinity-based characters in a game that is balanced around tank-mages. The nemesis confrontation starts your party off in 5 different parts of the map, forcing people to solo for a bit. And even the new "support" powerset, Celestial, was literally forced into picking up offensive powers (via two-function powers) because a pure support-bot just dosn't work in this game. I can accept the idea that a character is required to do a bit of everything. Such is par for the course for the superhero genre.
Now that said, the other (larger) part of problem is that some powers are broken and decidedly off-key in terms of where they should be power-level wise. This is the part that has people leaving the game. People want to make a swordsman who is roughly as effective as a fire elemental. Mostly because it is implied that you should be able to do so, and partially because of PvP (which is all but dead at the moment). If you want to retain people, get more people to fix the broken powers. This part isn't really acceptable after the decades worth of MMO, and even tabletop RPG, balance experience that the industry has accumulated.
Another word for these is 'superhero'.
Don't "crap" it for those of us that log on for an hour and go do in that hour what would of taken 2 or 3.
And finally, maybe it is simply your perspective. This thread is repetitive another " game is too easy and my fun and pride is in grinding grinding grinding until my nose bleeds!"
God forbid anyone deviates from the WoW-Clone pattern we've seen in almost every single MMORPGs for the past few years. Or that anyone takes a risk and tries to do something innovative and new. Or make us feel like we're not playing the same game we've played a hundred times before in a different skin.
Please, break the holy trinity. Wreck it. If I never hear the word 'tank' again, I'll be happy!
Oh, god, this, this, this.
I like the fact that CO isn't that hard. It means that I can just pick powers that I like the look of and go have fun with them, instead of having to bust out the calculator to find the top 10% powers.
The fact that the next guy along is a tankmage compared to me does not impact my gameplay at all. Unless I pvp against him, which is a different discussion entirely, and this isn't a pvp thread........right?
RIGHT!
I like making hero salad too and it being playable.
There's nothing mistaken about it. The system is designed to allow you to create characters like that. And that's a good thing.
The poor design isn't on the character creation side. It's on the content creation side. The designers of encounters and content and boss fights and lairs ... they are the ones dropping the ball. They're not designing content with the playerbase in mind.
The players are doing what players do.
It's time for the designers to design with that in mind.
Or else you get things like the Clarence Fight. Ugh. Bad design all around.
When you have a group that's experienced with that playstyle, and is invested in that playstyle, they'll tear through content fast, efficiently and easily. It's when you have people who are running tactics that are counter to that playstyle where things slow down and get messy. Remember DPS is part of the trinity.
There are no PVP rewards for people who do not kill. So the trinity doesn't work for PVP.
First of all, it's laughable that your frame of reference is WoW. WoW was an EQ clone turned into easy mode. If anything, WoW really started and fueled the decline of the MMO. If you've never played an MMO that actually did have challenge, and actually did have a risk vs reward system that created value to the items that dropped in the game, I feel sorry for you.
I know what the playerbase thinks they want, and you have it. Congratulations, you can log on, one shot mobs, and feel awesome, you have your game. We'll see if you're still playing it a year from now. Success in an MMO is based on retention. This thread isn't about what players want, it's about customer retention, and is aimed at the devs.
The real hook to MMOs is social interaction. It's the friends you make, and the difficulties you overcome with those friends. That's the root of the problem with modern MMOs, because everyone can solo, the social interaction of the game has been left by the wayside.
You can badmouth WoW all you want, but at least that game built some kind of sense of community and fostered cooperation to get things done.
100000000000 pieces of loot that are all slight variations on each other will not keep people playing your game for long. Friendships built do. If you don't understand the point of the thread, perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough.
I like Superchum. His posts are always where its at.
If you think the game is too easy (I don't agree, but i'm new to this MMO) try a less tuned toon. the forum is filled with talk about how some builds are underpowered. Try them and see how they merit. I'm doing a Duel blade/Archery mix and finding that yes, it is a tougher game than my Munitions toon. But it is also a different game for me, and I like that. Balance is for suckers.
I look at other heroes and i realize they have nothing to offer to me to make missions easier. I can deal great damage, resist enemy attacks, and heal myself just fine. In the rare cases i have grouped, organization is unneccesary. we just charge at the enemy and see who kills them all first. This sounds like fun, yes, but it leaves you with an aftertaste of "Why didn´t I solo this again?"
most of the content seems designed to be soloed, and hell, the way exp is divided, rescued npcs, and lack of sinergies amongst players, makes it feel like the game actually punishes me for trying to do the "MM" part of "MMORPG"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnoY6Sh4pGk
Keep in mind this is *without* using electric sheath, with ES this would have easily been a one shot, that's a TAPPED gigbolt with only sonic device as a buff.
Wow! I love it when other people save me the trouble of speaking.
/signed
I just started playing it about 2 weeks ago and have found a fabulous group of friends there. o.O
Against Cosmic: Neut Nade+Ebon Rift.
Against Anything Else: Neut Nade+PA Combo.
The problem is that the powers are not balanced. In framework games you have to balance Framework A against Framework B, C, etc. Doing this you usually get your "roles". Frame work A is melee + defense, B is range damage but no defense, etc. Just because this is the norm, does not mean it has to be followed.
However, when you have an open field game, like Champions, you need to have all powers balanced with each other, rather than framework to framework balance. This is the problem right now. Champions made an open field, but seems to have created balance within frameworks. So what does everyone do? Grab the best power from this framework and that one.
When you compare gigabolt or explosive arrow to vapor form or sniper rifle there is no comparison at all. But if you compare Ice vs. Electric or Archery vs. Munitions it is different. For this game to be balanced you would need to have taking vapor form just as good an option as taking gigabolt and so on; here is where the game fails. There should be a reason to take every single power in the game, and right now there is not. Each set has between 2-4 really good set defining powers, and a bunch of thematic fillers. So, again, to be powerful you narrow your choices to 2-4 powers from different sets.
Just look at the energybuilders and advantages. Do the devs really consider having a chance for a power to chain to another target to be as valuable as getting a 100% avoidance and dodge buff? Even with the EB's there are 3 or 4 that are clear cut better choices then the others, and it gets worse as you get better powers; in a open format game this should not be the case.
I'm really waiting for the set that lets you summon billions of enemy-aligned-but-confused minions in front of you so someone can stumble upon the summon-death arc combo and bring new ruination to the balance in pvp.
As a side note, I like doing a mission or even just 'patrolling' and running into a fellow hero in need. On a Support character of mine I often just play the role of the Night Nurse. Healing those in need.
Do we play for advancement or for fun? To some its synonymous...for others, not so much.
This is what I am talking about here. Challenge yourself. Am I the only person who makes theme builds?
My Main is slightly lacking in the theme department, but that is due to Supernatural needing to be looked at.
I slightly edited the quote. Cutting out text for length and bolding type.
This is the problem people! YOU are responsible for the reason. YOU make your character. That's what all this customization is about, not being some 1 hit Tank Mage.
I like that this game isn't for people like this. I like that this game is scaring that type off.
Perhaps a good solid RP server would be an option. (Though Super Groups function in this way to an extent.)
As for the EB comparison, one is ranged the other melee. Yes, that is valuable. True it isn't as good in the same way. However ranged EB's are better in PvP. Not that I am into that sort of thing. But again...it comes down to the context of your character.
As for the game being long lasting as the OP stated.
Neigh complete character ownership really is a huge deal. I agree the MM aspect is very important...but you gain that in spades through the RP aspect.
I soloed most of the time in CoX and in WoW. I don't think the soloability of the game is the issue, but this game does have a decided lack of MM in its MMORPG. I don't even think it's necessarily that characters are more or less self sufficient. Some ATs were self sufficient in CoX and it was a very teaming friendly game.
There need to be xp bonuses for teaming, one way or another. Either a straight up boost to xp based perhaps on team size or the addition of scalable door missions more like CoX. (Which might address people's concerns about ease if you could adjust the difficulty as well.)
They also may want to reconsider the way they handle "get this specific drop" missions. Right now, non grouped people can all kill whoever has it and (depending on the damage they do) probably all get it. In WoW people have to team temporarily for that kind of thing. I hate to advocate even that much forced teaming, but there's so little interaction in this game.
Or is the lack of socialness simply a product of this being such a new game?
2. The beauty of this game is you can go roll an archetype of the trinity system if you want to. Would you take away a players choice not to and pigeon hole him to one of those roles? This game would be just another clone then.
3. The customization and not having to rely on others is what makes me enjoy this game the most. I have played many games like WoW, FF, GW's, to name a few. While I love group content and the need for others to progress, I also like to go solo and not have to think about finding someone to help me clear this area cuz oh noes I might get 3 shot by this mob. This game fills its niche just fine when it comes to that. I played WoW and FF for group play. I still go play GW's for the pvp and I play this one because it allows me to be a juggernaut. I can still chat with others and group up if I want to. I just don't have to.
4. The whole idea of player retention is only hiding that you want changes for you. I would rather them fix real issues like endgame content (or lack there of) and bugs.
TLDR: MMO's are what you make of them. Feel that grouping is lacking? Well put it upon yourself to find someone to play with. Don't make the game force you. Have fun and if you don't, go play something else.
This what I like about the game being able to make a hero to how I want him to be, like if I wanted to make a kunfu hero with Guns and a rocket launcher which makes me smile in joy.
*steals your nightshade*
Each power should have a balanced game/combat value, not an use your imagination value. That's like saying it would be perfectly balanced to have a set do 1 pt of damage for every power and blame the player base for saying there is no value in it... after all they could have found a way to make that power work with their character, because that is what customization is about. Do you really think there should be "powerful" sets and "gimp" sets so that players can customize their very own gimp super hero; sounds like an oxymoron to me. Then what do players do who want to play a powerful theme A type super hero, but theme A was chosen to be a gimp set?
Look at it like this, If all the powers were balanced would that in anyway change your ability to customize your character: Not at all. However, powers not being balanced changes the ability of many players to customize a character they want to play; because get this they may want to be power set A and yet still compete in PvP or even worse, feel herioc with their choices.
When looking at these I was thinking about fire and archery, both of which are ranged energy builders.
I disagree ith you hole heartedly. Aside from bugs and miscalculations I seldom see posts of fire about the quality of powers in PvE. So far in this game the loudest voice of distaste for this game has come from the pvp area...that one over there--->
Not even the hard core PvPers at that but wrather the wanna be's (yea thats the group) These people consist of players who don't like to loose. They get hit with STC and quit a match cus they think it makes someone unstoppable or cry whenever they get beat by a new combo. So far (please feel free to correct me) ALL of the nerfs in this game aside from CoPD have been to try and give this crowd of PvP crybabies a pacifier.
I like being abke to solo content when I only have a few hours to play. I like being able to drop 40k of dmg on a Cosmic by myself, I like being able to play a game that makes my superhero seem...well Super. Are you telling me you didn't like to sit in your CoPD circle and whoop bad guy booty?
The issue with this game is that the team at Cryptic is trying to please what they feel are the masses and at the same time have a unique and profitable game. PvP is jacked up...wow big suprise...name me a game that has a balanced pvp system?
Actually, the devs have stated that when it comes to power nerfs/buffs PvE concerns trump PvP concerns. In fact, I recall a post where a dev stated that none of the changes up to that point had been for PvP reasons. I believe this was post mini-mines & taser arrow nerfs. Since that point, I don't think they've changed this policy. Qularr weapons were nerfed hard after the Nemesis mission and Winter event were released and people were trivializing that PVE content.
I would hope they will explain why STC is getting nerfed for pve then...
Nerfing STC will lead to more new combos, not less. There was a guy in the High Tech Arena dropping sigils and using the supernatural chain to pull people into them. A week or two of that sort of creativity is a lot more satisfying than sitting in the PH with STC looming over every power pick.
The fact remains if you want an overpowered build you CAN get one. That is how you act as a Superman or Gladiator, the top tier heroes. But for those who find Animal Man and Leech an interesting concept it will hurt them quite badly.
Thus the choice is yours. I can care less if you 1 hit whole mobs a villain included. Good job, try to stay entertained. I however create my own entertainment by playing a game the way its meant to be...my way. So as you are getting bored and complaining about powers not standing up to others which I can agree with...take Personal Force Field. I have a theme build that has crap defense because the power sucks...but you don't see me complaining the game is too hard or too easy. Even Batman has adversaries that give him a run for his money...and he has a ton of money.
I think you misinterpreted my statement.
As for the Energy Builders...I was thinking you meant Electricity and Might.