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Fix the darn AD rotation already.
mrhinkypunk
Posts: 1,569 Arc User
As Gentleman Crush was planning to do before he was shipped off to NW the AD fix where either some sort of cooldown reduction fix was put into place to fix the broken stat or the AD's had more of a global cooldown or a global cooldown that was flat as originally designed. It is vital for this to be placed into the game, Crushed fixed unbreakable only to find that people can now rotate these to have godmode against anything that hits under 1.5-1.8k where attacks basically heal the protection. Then MD that puts a 100% chance to dodge on you basically giving a flat 50-60% so you either never take hardly any damage as long as you have the level of cooldown reduction and int to get pretty much no gap. Fact is even with int you will only have a second or so gap just by using legions of speed wtih 2 x impacts.
This should be top priority for being done as for balance goes and should of come instead of this stupid vehicle balance. I like that people can no long afk farm using vehicles and other weapons being viable but this was all too much, personally I feel that the entire point of the game is to be a hero fighting villains with a choice of various powers and fully customizable costume. A place also to fight with friends and sometimes even rely on each other. The thing is, once you get the cooldown needed to rotate AD's efficiently you can be a super tank DPS healer that can only be tanky due to the AD's and basic 40% damage resistance.
The devs know of this problem but it is about time they actually go through with fixing it, before doing any balance changes or adding any new powers this is something that needs to have a fix which was also something stated by Crush.
This should be top priority for being done as for balance goes and should of come instead of this stupid vehicle balance. I like that people can no long afk farm using vehicles and other weapons being viable but this was all too much, personally I feel that the entire point of the game is to be a hero fighting villains with a choice of various powers and fully customizable costume. A place also to fight with friends and sometimes even rely on each other. The thing is, once you get the cooldown needed to rotate AD's efficiently you can be a super tank DPS healer that can only be tanky due to the AD's and basic 40% damage resistance.
The devs know of this problem but it is about time they actually go through with fixing it, before doing any balance changes or adding any new powers this is something that needs to have a fix which was also something stated by Crush.
Post edited by mrhinkypunk on
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Of course this is far from the only issue in CO, but changing this would be a good start.
For the actual implementation, I think the best choice is to give cooldown reduction a diminishing return after 100%, and a very strong diminishing return after 150%, and then give ADs (and AOs) a fully shared cooldown.
Fact is you have to be careful changing cooldown reduction, it would seem there are two layers of it in int and gear and also a few specs which add to it. The biggest problem they would face with doing a global cooldown nerf is that they'd affect many powers such as mini mines and rising knee which are not over performing for their cooldown's.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
True, but for a value like 150%, that would give you a cooldown on your ADs of 36 seconds. Things can get pretty silly at that point for more things than ADs, conviction with a 2.4 second cooldown, straving run with a 8 second cooldown, evasive maneuvers (what is the default cooldown again, 18 seconds?) with a cooldown of I think 7.2 seconds.
The problem there is that powers themselves are often badly balanced. Every power costs just as much, so in a well balanced game they would all perform more or less equally (yes I know it is not so simple). I don't think having cooldown reduction over perform is a good fix for under performing powers, those powers just need to be looked at themselves.
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sounds good, in most duels that i observated its all about ADs and ascension..lol give them a shared cooldown or make ADs/AOs unique powers so you can only select one
I can get behind this.
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I'd be fine with it but duel wise it'd make it all about stealth and so many people would be NW's based around SS perma stealth, holds and protection field. As a NW you don't even really need AO's and although AD's help 1 is enough to make you defensive enough while up against someone else.
However that's another story, I'm just saying without being able to break out of holds that easy using AO's and lacking MD you'd be so open to getting killed within about 2 seconds of a duel. Hold - gg.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Disclaimer, I am not a fan of stealth in duels.
To make up for a diminishing return on cooldown reduction, give stealth sight a huge buff.
If with >150int you can see through stealth, stealth will hardly be an issue. Stealth sight gear would only be needed if you have a build without int.
Holds would still be tricky, disabling devices in pvp would help a lot there.
And if ego surge would be brought in line with other AOs there is a lot less otions/chance to get a huge spike damage during a hold.
This is the simplest way and it does not affect anything else in the game, I think the discussion must be around the seconds 30, 60, 90, etc, and not so match in a change in the mechanic.
Imp, that's a case by case problem, not something addressed by an effect that impacts all powers with a cd.
AD/AOs are currently broken in that their flat cooldown is not so flat and can be reduced by cd reduction. However, even if this issue was fixed cd reduction is still allowing players to drop a power with a minute thirty cooldown down to 30 seconds or less. That is excessive and should be looked at as well.
I don't think they should become unique as it will remove variety.
I always thought that we should get new powers made specifically for instantly breaking out of holds/kb as well as granting immunity for a short time (probably at a high energy cost). The idea would be to have a much shorter cooldown than Ao's as even with the absurd amount of CD reduction flying around, AO's are still on much too long a cooldown to counter mez.
But yes I support 90sec shared CDs.
The poster formerly known as Lightwave!
Yeah, exactly. If the shared cooldown was as long as the individual cooldown having more than one AD would be less appealing since they'd all refresh at the same time. I'd still like the option to carry more than one so I can apply them in different situations though, like I might want Unbreakable when fighting a lot of henchmen who don't hit that hard, but keep Masterful Dodge for heavy-hitting Rampage bosses.
The poster formerly known as Lightwave!
Just remove hero games and the ability to duel from the game.
Problem solved.
I find it funny that they removed the costume quartermaster because he was a useless part of the game that was just taking up space, but they leave hero games and dueling in... heh.
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I disagree. One of the best parts of this game is that it doesn't force you into the "Stack HP or get in the back" paradigm that other MMOs do.
There needs to be ways to have high survivability without being forced to stack hit points. Primarily because that's boring as hell, and secondly because it just doesn't fit the genre... there are many heroes who can't take a hit, but yet aren't forced to hide behind other heroes who can. Given that, there in fact needs to be specific ways to have survivability that exclude having high hit points.
Players should in fact be able to tank with any passive, just like players should be able to dps with any passive, just like players should be able to heal and support with any passive. Your passive should add flavor to your character, not limit it.
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I am infact all for some sort of nerf to CON but that's another story. (I'd love some deminishing returns on it in line with other stats) Players shouldn't really get over like 12-14k hp max anyway, 22k is seriously stupid. The problem with 5k hp is that it brings you to the level that almost anything can one shot you without using an AD due to attack damage also being increased over time. Changing all of these things will just create another problem, this entire unbreak MD rotation was caused by a fix to unbreakable. Although people already rotated MD with ascension and resurgence it in no way broke 95% of attack powers like this current rotation does.
The thing with stealth is mainly because stealth sight gear isn't given out enough and the stuff in the hero games vendor doesn't work that well. Stealth should be kept exactly how it is but just be made easier to get, the way it is currently if you go further away you become more in stealth until target is broken depending on the persons int. With 290 int and a stealth sight secondary you are able to see stealth but only just when they are within about 50ft, you need about 310 to see 100ft and 360 if you want to see a NW using stacked stealth. 400 int will allow you to see people over 150ft away while they are in stealth making teleport stealth not affect you much.
Fact is that PvP is still in the game and people still do it now and again. It's crazy dead currently though due to this one AD rotation thing simply making people unbeatable without the purest of luck and ganking. You can easily work around stealth, anyone who really does PvP has a stealth sight legacy secondary and pretty high int, if not then they know how to look for the footsteps on the ground so they know where the stealthed person is. The only stealth that can get past stealth sight and make you impossible to find is smoke grenade's advantage, as soon as you hit with that you are taken out of stealth. Currently smoke grenade is the only thing stopping everyone from going pure AOPM / defiant / invuln tanks using ER and some burst power like UR or SR.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Footsteps are not that useful if you can't target the person. And if you ever want to have a significant number of new people in pvp, having things depend on a legacy item is not such a good idea.
The existance of legacy stuff is a big balance problem for CO, stuff like U-09 Crybaby or VB-A1A 'Eagle' Blaster Rifle are just silly. When powerreplacers were 'removed' the existing items should have also been disabled.
There are already options to get permanent stealth and make stealth sight useless (see one of the power replacers I mentioned). Without legacy gear even EM alone is severily overpowered.
Most games do not let you use stealth in combat. If they do have that ability, it's from a skill that lets you disappear for 2 or 3 seconds on a 1 or 2 minute cooldown with no option for cooldown reduction. Plus, stealth tends to only last for 30 or 60 seconds.
As for the AO / AD rotation, I always thought they should be tactical use buffs with long cooldowns. Instead, you have powerful buffs that are easily rotated so something is always up. Because our toons aren't stupid powerful enough.
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and I DISAGREE with the CON shaming
What if I WANT TO have over 15.000 HP? i DON'T EVEN PVP! I want to have that much HP for Concept reasons and to survive that B!tch Gravitar (which I haven't managed, most of my characters don't go about 8000+ HP
It's my choice of Survability! HP
leave CON alone, no need for Dimish Return! it's the only Stat that DOES IT ONE JOB RIGHT
Don't suggest NERF on stuff because of PvP Shenanigans
Stealth needs to be changed to not be such a binary mechanic where it's only either godmode or totally useless. The one gradual aspect of stealth is that it scales with distance, however this part of it is completely overshadowed by the strong buffs and debuffs for stealth. As long as distance plays a much bigger role in stealth then it can become something fun to fight against and with.
Yes AD and AO global cooldowns need fixing....not for PvP or the 20 people that participate in it, but for PvE. Though it will affect squishies more than tanks.
As for PvP, with the fix the metagame - especially for squishies - will shift even more towards stealth builds and they + their counters are far less flexible and diverse than just slapping 2 ADs into any old build. So I think such a change would be worse for PvP, but likely better for PvE.
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To offset that a bit, they can just make ego surge (+nimble mind) perform equally to other AOs.
And I would prefer to have the damage bonus on AOs affect the same damage bonus offense, severity, etc do.
The poster formerly known as Lightwave!
Unfortenly I wasn't playing as FreeForms before the Imbue nerf
But I can say that Imbue suuuuuuuuuuuuck sooooooo much
It's the Worst Active Offence I have ever used!
It doesn't give Break Free, the Critical Boost is pathetic, the Duration is short and and WHAT THE HELL?
and the ADV to drop Agro doesn't seem to work
Ego Surge with Nimble Mind is better Imbue than the Imbue
You guys realize it doens't even count as Active Offense right? I never used it but the description just says it's a instant buff, so it's not ment to act as one just saying, i guess you can say the same for Dark Transfusion which also is just a buff. Problem solved right? Take it with a official AO and you're happy. (if i'm wrong don't beat me up just saying how i think about this)
They could at least make the crit/severity scale up w/ rank. I mean, come the f- on, not even that for Imbue? Breakfree portion is also incorrect.
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ive 11k HP , 91% defense and like 760 offense in hybrid form and i still can get killed by some mobs if i am nott carfeful enough...
We are superheroes/beings .. we schould not die easily....
i agree with a bigger shared cooldown on ADs and AOs... atleast in duels/pvp... leave it like it is in pve but change it for duels...
in general id say we need to seperate PvP mode from PvE mode...
in some other games we had a "PvP Bar" and PvP Gauge...those are only touched when in PvP mode or on PvP maps... means if youre in PvP mode your ADs and AOs have a bigger shared cooldown... call it champion penalty because you shouldnt fight other heros you should fight villains
Right now it seems to be the inverse. A Freeform character with Con using Nimble Mind and Juggernaut + Aggressive Defense actually gains more DPS by secondary statting Con over say, Ego. It's more than just inequitable, it's a no-brainer.
For there to be a meaningful choice between picking superstat Con vs. superstat DPS or heal, their relative benefit needs to be close enough to make the player think twice.
IMO what could be done is to use Pre and bonus healing as a benchmark: 200 Pre gives +30% additive healing, and in most roles that's almost 30% real. Since Con has no DRs, 200 Con should give under 30% survivability over base.
At the same time, bonus healing can be substituted by other means, like mods. However, Growth Amulet gives too little to compete with raw Con, so that should be given a boost. 338 HP is on Vigi less than 10% of base HP, vs. +14% healing on Vigi. That needs to change as well, as does primary gear.
I think something like this should be considered:
1. Buff base HP from 4800 to 5200
2. Buff Vigi HP bonus from 338 to 700
3. Buff Primary gear HP and Growth Ammy VII HP to 1400
4. Reduce Con bonus to 7 HP per point
5. Do something about Juggernaut, Aggressive Defense and Nimble Mind
Or something to that extent with some tweaking to actual numbers since they're approximations. The idea is to roughly preserve HPs of the uber tanks if they make slight adjustments to their gear, while making it easier for squishies to be less squishy.
Sure, they lose Defense if they slot HP, but tanks will feel it least due to how Resistance scales. On the other hand, a HP boost of a few thousand will more than make up for the loss of defense for squishy characters, and it will more closely reflect how offensive gearing and gearing for heals works, i.e. that most of your healing and offense comes from other sources than the basic stat's effect.
Melee builds do need the advantages you get out of the str specs to be competitive. Ranged got a large buff since on alert (the addition of concentration), while some melee sets were made a lot weaker (the changes to agressor and enrage, and yes might ended up even stronger against knock immunes, but that is just might), making things even harder for melee is not something I agree with. The thing that needs to be changed on the str specs is change the severity spec to only apply to melee attacks.
Removing the con scaling from nimble mind is enough to stop con working better for dps than ego.
The thing is, if all melee builds need the extra defense, why tie Juggernaut to a single stat? Wouldn't the melees that don't stat Con need the defense more than the ones that do? And what of the melees that use Dex?
I actually think Melee DPS role should give something defensive - something like a flat +10% Dodge to reflect that being in Melee mode makes the character more aware of the need to deflect incoming hits, and to contrast the straight up HP and Resistance of Tank role.
And if the problem is that the defense can be converted to offense - to the extent that it gives more offense than the direct path, then the question should be: why does taking a defensive option boost offense more than taking the offensive option?
How ever you put it, nerfing the str specs will mostly affect melee. Most melee doesn't need to perform lower compared to ranged then it does now, so if you want to argue for that, add things to compensate(for more then just dps builds).
Hybrid and Support survive with the heal bonus, Tank role is Tank role. What other melee builds are there? Ranged role? Regardless of the specs Melee role is the outlier here.
Also, could you look through my post again.and first, identify where you got the notion of "nerf" and second, answer my question about why Juggernaut should be tied to Con?
Placing 'Juggernaut' in the same line as ego surge, very strongly implies you'd like to see it made less effective. If not it would be nice if you could specify what you mean with 'doing something about'.
And what does it matter if tank is a tank, and hybrid gets heals, dps gets a damage boost. I still don't see any reasons for tying any melee buffs to a dps role.
And I don't care if juggernaut is tied to con or just to your secondary superstat. It is not something I designed or have a strong opinion about.
Also, does Melee DPS get an equitable damage boost? It doesn't appear so. Hybrid role easily gets +35% healing, while losing less than 25% damage due to better superstat scaling. Tank role gets both 25% HP and 10% resist. Melee DPS only gets the multiplicative 25% - it doesn't even get as much builder strength as Ranged. This is something that really belongs in another thread though.
Then the obvious solution would be to make it scale with secondary SS - with a slight nerf to account for the higher totals of two stats, so that AoPM with all mods and gear going into secondary SS ends up the same as the current numbers with AoPM and all mods and gear going into Con.
I also don't think there is anything wrong with Con, unless you're looking to one/two-shot your opponent.
I agree it is silly that the melee dps role gets less than the ranged dps role. But even if those were made equal most of those thing would stay the same. If dps role is deemed to be underperforming compared to other roles that is not only a melee problem.
I would prefer to just have one dps role again, any advantages melee needs can be added with specs now. And also, having two dps roles makes melee/ranged hybrid builds more difficult.
And agreed, we are drifting a little far off topic.