1- I don't really like vampires myself. In a game where you've got tons of options and you can make origins that are truly unique, saying 'I'm a Malkavian Vampire' seems kind of unimaginative, like you're just grabbing some kind of pre-made character and painting a face on it and giving it a name.
Hell, in Vampire: the Masquerade I made a Malk whose Derangement was that he was convinced he was given the Embrace so he could be (duh duh duuuhhh!!) - a superhero! <strike pose>
Except that he tended to do things like assigning the death penalty for parking violations. If the game had continued much longer, the Prince would probably have put a price on his head...
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
It is the warped visions of one Fletcher Hanks, a truly horrible human being... so yeah, a kind of extreme example... but one aimed at nailing my point across.
Here's the problem with the prevalence of blackredders for me.
Color choice, like all aesthetic consideration, is part of our visual vocabulary. We associate meaning with color. Red and black are not the dominant aesthetic on this planet: go to Asia, or Africa or South America, and you won't find a lot of black and red clothing. Similarly, if you look at the work of history's most acclaimed artists, you won't find a lot of work dominantly in red and black: certainly not the majority of acclaimed paintings. So when we've adopted that aesthetic, we haven't done so because it's universally popular or embraced as beautiful.
So the three questions I ask are: what does a black and red combination mean, where does it come from, and does it reinforce or clash with the aesthetics of the mainstream North American superhero genre that Champions is supposed to represent?
I'll spare you the academic answers and cut to the chase. Put simply, the black and red combination represents a number of qualities; strength, brutal control, and ruthlessness. It's the dominant aesthetic of SS uniforms for a reason (and this is one area where I'm Godwinning, but no, I'm not accusing you of being a Nazi if you wear black and red; having an overlapping aesthetic does not make you a terrible person). The color scheme can certainly be employed well. SS uniforms are very attractive, despite representing a cause that is arguably the most despicable in the long history of humanity's despicable causes. But the attractiveness does carry with it a symbolic imprint that goes against the ideals of the genre.
And so we have blackredders in Champions, a game originally made by George MacDonald and Steve Peterson that's steeped in the traditions of Silver Age Marvel and Bronze Age comics (against which the "humorous" tone of the original writing team for CO also grates, but in the opposite direction). Do blackredders belong here? I think a case can be made for them: as Champions evolved as a pen and paper game, some elements of modern urban fantasy were added in (mainly through the contributions of Allen Varney and Dean Shomshak, but which Steve Long readily embraced in Champions' 5th edition). It's understandable why they were included: the urban fantasy genre/dark occultism has been a part of comics for decades, with books like Tales into Mystery in the 60s and (hewing closer than Dr. Strange did) Tomb of Dracula and Gerber's Man-Thing in the 70s. It's not inappropriate for characters in the urban fantasy genre to have those themes and color schemes: "blackredders" are very much favored by the genre. So anyone who might say they don't belong in this game are ignoring a fairly substantial part of comics history.
The larger question then, isn't whether they belong: it's whether they dominate the game's aesthetic to such an extent that they overwhelm the dominant aesthetic of the mainstream superhero that is the center of this game, populated by characters whose color schemes usually invoke other qualities than the ruthless power of the fascist and self-indulgent power of dark occultism. Does the dominance of red and black color schemes in the game population exceed the proportion of individuals employing those color schemes in the comics to such a degree that it works against the thematic intent of the genre?
I think the answer is both yes and no. Yes, if you're embracing Champions Online as a large genre emulation, faithfully reflecting comics. The blackredder aesthetic certainly doesn't dominate the top ten bet selling comic books, or the most successful comic book movies. No, if you're imagining the character as part of the urban fantasy or Iron Age vigilante sub-genres, and you're mentally filtering out those parts of the game that work against your theme, which is almost necessary for any sane approach to theme in a MMO.
Before we get too upset, we have to come to grips with the serious limitations of the medium., MMOs are probably the worst place in gaming to go for genre reinforcement. All you have to do is log onto WoW and try playing your high fantasy character next to Obama Fartbelcher to see how quickly the thematic walls crumble.
So is it unrealistic to expect to see your themes broadly reflected in Champions Online? Almost certainly. Still, the prejudices remain. I like my superheroes to be about hope and making the world a better place, and not just a pack of psychotic gods or realpolitick **** Cheneys in tights. The repudiation of the theme bothers me on a human level.
Silver Age comics were produced for children, and it was the largely unconscious subversion of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby and the other talents at Marvel that slowly worked comics back to being the all ages medium that it was pre-Comics Code, and the characterization of Silver Age heroes show it. They were flat, platitude spouting, and frequently laughable by modern standards. (The Eisenhower/Kennedy generation was very much into encouraging people to avoid the bloody mistakes of the first two world wars, and remarkably earnest at trying to indoctrinate those values into the next generation -- see also the original Star Trek). I can appreciate the trippiness of "Giant Turtle Olson", but those books aren't going to be a place where someone with even my crass, genre cravings are going to go for entertainment. (For what it's worth, my foundational comics were books like Claremont/Byrne X-Men, Simonson's Thor, both thoroughly Bronze age titles, and Miller's Daredevil and Moore's Miracleman, early Iron Age books, as well as a love of Stan/Ditko/Romita Sidey and Lee/Kirby FF, which were among the more sophisticated works of the Silver Age).
However, let us not dismiss the those characters' themes because they were presented with a lack of sophistication intended for readers whose age was in the single digits. The themes of those characters -- hope, compassion, and service are not childish themes. The history of enlightenment and post-enlightenment civilization is largely the struggle to persuade humanity to accept those values -- to repudiate war, slavery, prejudice, lack of personal freedom, and cycles of poverty -- .and the bloody resistance against them by those holding and/or craving power. I believe in promoting those values as the best way for the species to advance in a manner that promotes our collective dignity. They're one of the things that attracts me to comics, and the moral complexity of modern comics has only enhanced them: the struggle for a good person to maintain his goodness in a complicated world is one that interests me, and which I believe is extremely relevant to our times.
I don't enjoy seeing those themes repudiated in favor of their opposites, whether it be aesthetics or a character background choice. I completely understand why the blackredder aesthetic exists, I accept there is a place in the genre for it --- but I still don't like it and wish things were otherwise. However, it's endemic at the larger issue of MMOs and genre emulation, and the only fix for that problem would be a snobbish enforcement of concept that would destroy what little is left of the game population and leave a stifling, self-righteous clique in its place, so it's best to live with it and judiciously use your internal editor to set things right.
However as long as my characters get mocked as tights wearers, I won't shut up about your black and red, and don't give me crap for doing so.
Also, Fletcher Hanks is pretty damn warped. His revenge porn makes the Spectre look downright cuddly.
Here's the problem with the prevalence of blackredders for me.
I completely understand why the blackredder aesthetic exists, I accept there is a place in the genre for it --- but I still don't like it and wish things were otherwise.
However as long as my characters get mocked as tights wearers, I won't shut up about your black and red, and don't give me crap for doing so. .
Ben Reilly stayed dead...Kaine(formerly the evil clone) is the current Scarlet Spider.
He is trying to change his ways and live a quiet life...but keeps getting caught up in situations that require him to be a superhero...it's actually been a great series I think.
He tries his best to do the right thing, but sometimes he forgets...
(Yeah that window is on a upper floor of a high-rise building. Don't worry someone caught her.)
So the three questions I ask are: what does a black and red combination mean, where does it come from, and does it reinforce or clash with the aesthetics of the mainstream North American superhero genre that Champions is supposed to represent?
I'll spare you the academic answers and cut to the chase. Put simply, the black and red combination represents a number of qualities; strength, brutal control, and ruthlessness. It's the dominant aesthetic of SS uniforms for a reason (and this is one area where I'm Godwinning, but no, I'm not accusing you of being a Nazi if you wear black and red; having an overlapping aesthetic does not make you a terrible person). The color scheme can certainly be employed well. SS uniforms are very attractive, despite representing a cause that is arguably the most despicable in the long history of humanity's despicable causes. But the attractiveness does carry with it a symbolic imprint that goes against the ideals of the genre.
Technically, it's 'very dark blue', but ask anyone looking at it and it's 'Black with Red', and it's near-impossible to replicate in-game.
And these fellows might find their National Hero's thoughts on the matter disturbing and politely disagree.
It's just a set of colors, and when people in the game get too wrapped up in colors, I find it best to ask which they'd recommend for someone with military heritage and an admiration of the Spartan lifestyle (for the red) and what they'd recommend in a tactical environment for someone (dark colors).
It's a matter of preference.
In my opinion, if someone looks at a set of colors in a combination they dislike and immediately dismisses that character based on those colors?
Well, they're just a snob and I think my greatest super power is being able to function with or without the approval of someone else. You'd be surprised how far it gets me.
Technically, it's 'very dark blue', but ask anyone looking at it and it's 'Black with Red', and it's near-impossible to replicate in-game.
That's not the entire uniform. It's "black," blue, red, white, and gold. Having black and red amongst your chosen colors does not put you into the "blackredder" category, I don't think. Predominantly black and red with a color or two for embellishment, yes, closer to "blackredder." But the predominant colors here are Dark blue and blue.
And these fellows might find their National Hero's thoughts on the matter disturbing and politely disagree.
It's just a set of colors, and when people in the game get too wrapped up in colors, I find it best to ask which they'd recommend for someone with military heritage and an admiration of the Spartan lifestyle (for the red) and what they'd recommend in a tactical environment for someone (dark colors).
It's a matter of preference.
In my opinion, if someone looks at a set of colors in a combination they dislike and immediately dismisses that character based on those colors?
Well, they're just a snob and I think my greatest super power is being able to function with or without the approval of someone else. You'd be surprised how far it gets me.
And like Thundrax said, choosing these colors doesn't make you an evil person.
There are, however, subliminal effects of colors. When I think of black and red, I don't think "bright and cheery." I'm not going to treat a person differently because of the colors they've chosen to wear (in real life I rarely wear anything other than black because it's the only color I'm really comfortable in), but my instinct, my gut reaction, when looking at someone in this setting (where violence is everywhere), it makes me think "probably a bad guy."
When I dream, if I am alone in my dream, everything is bright yellow and orange, it's sunny and warm. When there are people around, it's blue, and dark, and cold. In real life, I don't much like being around people I don't know, or a lot of people at once, and I prefer the dark, and I love cold weather. But there's something going on there with the colors, something subconscious.
And like Thundrax said, choosing these colors doesn't make you an evil person.
There are, however, subliminal effects of colors. When I think of black and red, I don't think "bright and cheery." I'm not going to treat a person differently because of the colors they've chosen to wear (in real life I rarely wear anything other than black because it's the only color I'm really comfortable in), but my instinct, my gut reaction, when looking at someone in this setting (where violence is everywhere), it makes me think "probably a bad guy."
And if that's what you're trying to evoke with your colors, then so be it. Basic color association with me when it comes to heroes?
Like I said, people put a bit too much stock in the colors, though.
'LOL Blackredder lame' coming from someone gets an eyeroll from me, especially when it comes from certain members of the 'Capes and Tights are the only legitimate costume' crowd (that has fortunately dwindled). Does it suit the character's personality and concept? Then by all means, this game is 'be the hero you want to be', not 'be the hero that meets someone's standards'. Go with black/red.
My only gripe is when it's black/red like the Zin Empire vehicles in Saint's Row 4. That actually hurt my eyes. A darker, more 'Dark Crimson' works better with black. Bright, borderline neon hurts my eyes.
And mother of God, do I hate Red and Blue together. Just me.
There are, however, subliminal effects of colors. When I think of black and red, I don't think "bright and cheery." I'm not going to treat a person differently because of the colors they've chosen to wear (in real life I rarely wear anything other than black because it's the only color I'm really comfortable in), but my instinct, my gut reaction, when looking at someone in this setting (where violence is everywhere), it makes me think "probably a bad guy."
Hence the shock at seeing these colors on the Fantastic Four. It seems downright antithetical to the history of the characters and the series.
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
Hence the shock at seeing these colors on the Fantastic Four. It seems downright antithetical to the history of the characters and the series.
Agreed. Like, the 'pattern' of the costume, I like. But when someone says 'Fantastic Four', the first thing I think about are those white and blue tights.
I mean, If you showed me a Red/Black Iron Man I'd react the same way. Colors -do- have an important function in the overall characteristics of a character. It's like as important as their mask shape, or their signature weapon.
Captain America in any other colors wouldn't be Captain America, for obvious reasons. But if you showed me a 'new' Black and Green Batman, I'd vomit.
..which is why when I was a kid, I never could by those 'alternative color' action figures. Something about them being anything other than their original colors irked me.
But, I'm also of the belief that a lot of people hate Red/Black because it's 'Deadpool colors', and it's hip and trendy to hate Deadpool now that he's more popular. The comics world is full of hipsters.
Here's the problem with the prevalence of blackredders for me.
Color choice, like all aesthetic consideration, is part of our visual vocabulary. We associate meaning with color. Red and black are not the dominant aesthetic on this planet: go to Asia, or Africa or South America, and you won't find a lot of black and red clothing. Similarly, if you look at the work of history's most acclaimed artists, you won't find a lot of work dominantly in red and black: certainly not the majority of acclaimed paintings. So when we've adopted that aesthetic, we haven't done so because it's universally popular or embraced as beautiful.
So the three questions I ask are: what does a black and red combination mean, where does it come from, and does it reinforce or clash with the aesthetics of the mainstream North American superhero genre that Champions is supposed to represent?
I'll spare you the academic answers and cut to the chase. Put simply, the black and red combination represents a number of qualities; strength, brutal control, and ruthlessness. It's the dominant aesthetic of SS uniforms for a reason (and this is one area where I'm Godwinning, but no, I'm not accusing you of being a Nazi if you wear black and red; having an overlapping aesthetic does not make you a terrible person). The color scheme can certainly be employed well. SS uniforms are very attractive, despite representing a cause that is arguably the most despicable in the long history of humanity's despicable causes. But the attractiveness does carry with it a symbolic imprint that goes against the ideals of the genre.
The only red in the SS uniform was around their arm, and it was the flag of their nation. I am unsure if that qualifies as a black/red uniform. Of course your argumentation could simply be used on the flag instead. Although they already had a black/white/red one before.
Anyway some more black and red:
(although that is probably a dark blue)
Colors are always chosen for a reason, but sometimes it is probably really because they look good.
But, I'm also of the belief that a lot of people hate Red/Black because it's 'Deadpool colors', and it's hip and trendy to hate Deadpool now that he's more popular. The comics world is full of hipsters.
Actually I hate most Black/Red because usually the outfit itself just doesn't look right with those colors. Take the Dr. Strange picture I posted for example.. I honestly can't think of any other color combination that would work the same.
Love Deadpool though, especially in MUA.
AWWWW CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE! DON'T YOU DARE. BE SOUR. CLAP FOR YOUR NIGHTMARE AND FEEEEEEEEEEEL THE POWAAAAAAH!
Black and red tinctures on military uniforms are mostly originated from heraldry and tradition. Black/dark gray/dark blue was used because of gunpowder. Red was used for heraldic reason, especially on British uniforms. It's a tradition.
They aren't exactly originated because of visual design.
Red/dark red used by Spartans and Romans was to the some extend for practical reason. Red pigment wasn't expensive, but it did hide blood stains rather well.
Through association with old times these two colors started to be viewed as a warrior colors, but their primary reason was practical.
Back then when warrior really wanted to manifest his wealth and badassery, he was wearing deep blue or purple, hands down two the most expensive natural pigments you could think of.
Black and red tinctures on military uniforms are mostly originated from heraldry and tradition. Black/dark gray/dark blue was used because of gunpowder. Red was used for heraldic reason, especially on British uniforms. It's a tradition.
They aren't exactly originated because of visual design.
Red/dark red used by Spartans and Romans was to the some extend for practical reason. Red pigment wasn't expensive, but it did hide blood stains rather well.
Through association with old times these two colors started to ve viewed as a warrior colors, but their primary reason was practical.
Back then when warrior really wanted to manifest his wealth and badassery, he was wearing deep blue or purple, hands down two the most expensive natural pigments you could think of.
...if you showed me a 'new' Black and Green Batman, I'd vomit.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
But, I'm also of the belief that a lot of people hate Red/Black because it's 'Deadpool colors', and it's hip and trendy to hate Deadpool now that he's more popular. The comics world is full of hipsters.
I absolutely love Deadpool; always have. That doesn't mean that I think everyone should be going around colored like him. There are far more colors in the crayon box than black and red and people need to be reminded of that.
There are far more colors in the crayon box than black and red and people need to be reminded of that.
They do? I'm pretty sure most of them are aware of that, actually. When I see comments like this, my first impression is:
"People in this game are not meeting my standards of appearance."
I think people need to be reminded that people will choose the colors they like best, and not a single person in this game has any right to think otherwise.
I absolutely despise 'Wolves'. I don't think people need to be reminded there are other animals, I just don't like them.
Fun fact, kids- people are gonna go with what they like. You can not like it all you want, but remember there are reasonable people who think your own preferences are just as absurd.
They do? I'm pretty sure most of them are aware of that, actually. When I see comments like this, my first impression is:
"People in this game are not meeting my standards of appearance."
I think people need to be reminded that people will choose the colors they like best, and not a single person in this game has any right to think otherwise.
I absolutely despise 'Wolves'. I don't think people need to be reminded there are other animals, I just don't like them.
I dunno, it's certainly possible to fall into a rut, just choosing those colors from the get-go because that's just what you're used to.
I dunno, it's certainly possible to fall into a rut, just choosing those colors from the get-go because that's just what you're used to.
One could say the same about any other choice in colors.
Really, in a game where there are 100000 winged wolves and Deathlord Darkspikes with plate mail... I think a Red and Black costume is the least of the 'bad' things you could worry about.
Yes, but which ones are the most predominant? So predominant that there is a name for people who use those colors?
It's certainly not the babyblueyellowers, is it? :P
I see a lot of BLACKBLACK and Black. Like, that bottom black.
As a matter of fact, a cursory stroll into the Ren Center Powerhouse revealed a few, but by no means the most common. White and blue is common, and so is BLACK BLACK and Jesus White.
It's a classic color combination, and it looks good together. Red doesn't always match up so well with other colors, either. With white? Peppermint (Sorry Thundrax!). Red and Green? Christmas. Red and brown? That time I ate too much Chipotle. Red and blue? Eyesore. Red and Yellow? That time I got punched in the kidneys for saying I liked Deathstroke more than Deadpool.
Face it. It's a classic color combination, it looks good together to a lot of people. Hell, how many sports cars are a combination of Black and Red?
Does it fit all concepts? Nope. But it fits mine and a few others.
Truth be told, term "blackredder" was coined only on this forum by few people disliking this combinnation and then repated again and again. It is not something universal. If not few topics on forum started by always the same people, it wouldn't be in use.
As an F4 fan..I am hating this costume "revision" it looks stupid.
I didn't really like their future foundation ones either, I think their Ultimate costumes and perhaps original and Fantastic Four: WGH costumes were great.
Marvel, get it right, if you produce a reboot of F4 with THOSE costumes...I will cry for the Invisible Woman..and possibly the Human Torch
I see a lot of BLACKBLACK and Black. Like, that bottom black.
As a matter of fact, a cursory stroll into the Ren Center Powerhouse revealed a few, but by no means the most common. White and blue is common, and so is BLACK BLACK and Jesus White.
It's a classic color combination, and it looks good together. Red doesn't always match up so well with other colors, either. With white? Peppermint (Sorry Thundrax!). Red and Green? Christmas. Red and brown? That time I ate too much Chipotle. Red and blue? Eyesore. Red and Yellow? That time I got punched in the kidneys for saying I liked Deathstroke more than Deadpool.
Face it. It's a classic color combination, it looks good together to a lot of people. Hell, how many sports cars are a combination of Black and Red?
Does it fit all concepts? Nope. But it fits mine and a few others.
I don't think I have to "face" anything. Not sure you read anything I write but I've mentioned numerous times that I use the color combination sometimes because it's two colors that go well together. You're not telling me anything I don't already know.
Truth be told, term "blackredder" was coined only on this forum by few people disliking this combinnation and then repated again and again. It is not something universal. If not few topics on forum started by always the same people, it wouldn't be in use.
It's a tag of a very artificial origin.
However, this guy is. :P I had no idea that it was a Champs thing. I thought it was something that came up from the proliferation of the same styles being used in comics these days.
What exactly makes it an artifical origin? It's a trend, that's not only been used in this game, and someone has put a name to it.
What exactly makes it an artifical origin? It's a trend, that's not only been used in this game, and someone has put a name to it.
If you count people complaining at this forum, it's no more than ten people, at best. Even considering how low is CO population, is hardly a representative group, even if a very loud one.
Of course black and red is a popular combo.
So it's blue-white, or red-white, or red-yellow. Or black and white. Or a few other combinations of primary colors.
They do? I'm pretty sure most of them are aware of that, actually. When I see comments like this, my first impression is:
"People in this game are not meeting my standards of appearance."
I think people need to be reminded that people will choose the colors they like best, and not a single person in this game has any right to think otherwise.
I absolutely despise 'Wolves'. I don't think people need to be reminded there are other animals, I just don't like them.
Fun fact, kids- people are gonna go with what they like. You can not like it all you want, but remember there are reasonable people who think your own preferences are just as absurd.
Funny how you think I was talking only about this game.
Hm... let's see... possibly a few metallic colors would work, like golds or silvers. Heck, even adding in a darker green somewhere. Or a gray. Or brown.
Now look at these costumes. Can you think of other pallets that they would work with? Me personally, I can't (Except for the first.)
There are other dark colors than black. Use the darker blues.
Jackets 1-3 could even be darker brown, Leather as the material.
Too much black just makes the whole costume a smudge.
Or add a 3rd color to the pallet. Balances things up.
CHAMPIONS ONLINE:Join Date: Apr 2008
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His current look is black and gold, rather than blue and gold, but you get the idea, right?
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Is how you do 'black' and 'red' I suppose the aren't really black and red at all but yeah you get my point. Use darker colours or a darker grey and use a more saturated red. >.>
Note that when we first started discussing blackredders, it was meant to refer to people who use only the darkest black and the brightest red, often putting the red into glowy bits and then turning the glow up high. Usually, this was accompanied by tons of pointless spiky bits. You know, like a Liefeld design from the early '90s. We were disparaging them because the design could often be actually painful on the eyes.
Now, of course, it's expanded to the point where some use that to describe any costume that uses the colors black and red at the same time, even if they're the minor components in a larger combination.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Black and Blue, Red and Black , White and Black , who cares FF as a whole is a a bit lame. The only good thing to come from the FF is this guy and he is the only reason people read that comic
That comic should be renamed to THE FANTASTIC DOOM!
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Comments
Except that he tended to do things like assigning the death penalty for parking violations. If the game had continued much longer, the Prince would probably have put a price on his head...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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What... what is this? No, seriously, what the hell is this?
That art... it's absolutely godawful. And shouldn't there be blood pouring out of that guy's mouth?
Color choice, like all aesthetic consideration, is part of our visual vocabulary. We associate meaning with color. Red and black are not the dominant aesthetic on this planet: go to Asia, or Africa or South America, and you won't find a lot of black and red clothing. Similarly, if you look at the work of history's most acclaimed artists, you won't find a lot of work dominantly in red and black: certainly not the majority of acclaimed paintings. So when we've adopted that aesthetic, we haven't done so because it's universally popular or embraced as beautiful.
So the three questions I ask are: what does a black and red combination mean, where does it come from, and does it reinforce or clash with the aesthetics of the mainstream North American superhero genre that Champions is supposed to represent?
I'll spare you the academic answers and cut to the chase. Put simply, the black and red combination represents a number of qualities; strength, brutal control, and ruthlessness. It's the dominant aesthetic of SS uniforms for a reason (and this is one area where I'm Godwinning, but no, I'm not accusing you of being a Nazi if you wear black and red; having an overlapping aesthetic does not make you a terrible person). The color scheme can certainly be employed well. SS uniforms are very attractive, despite representing a cause that is arguably the most despicable in the long history of humanity's despicable causes. But the attractiveness does carry with it a symbolic imprint that goes against the ideals of the genre.
And so we have blackredders in Champions, a game originally made by George MacDonald and Steve Peterson that's steeped in the traditions of Silver Age Marvel and Bronze Age comics (against which the "humorous" tone of the original writing team for CO also grates, but in the opposite direction). Do blackredders belong here? I think a case can be made for them: as Champions evolved as a pen and paper game, some elements of modern urban fantasy were added in (mainly through the contributions of Allen Varney and Dean Shomshak, but which Steve Long readily embraced in Champions' 5th edition). It's understandable why they were included: the urban fantasy genre/dark occultism has been a part of comics for decades, with books like Tales into Mystery in the 60s and (hewing closer than Dr. Strange did) Tomb of Dracula and Gerber's Man-Thing in the 70s. It's not inappropriate for characters in the urban fantasy genre to have those themes and color schemes: "blackredders" are very much favored by the genre. So anyone who might say they don't belong in this game are ignoring a fairly substantial part of comics history.
The larger question then, isn't whether they belong: it's whether they dominate the game's aesthetic to such an extent that they overwhelm the dominant aesthetic of the mainstream superhero that is the center of this game, populated by characters whose color schemes usually invoke other qualities than the ruthless power of the fascist and self-indulgent power of dark occultism. Does the dominance of red and black color schemes in the game population exceed the proportion of individuals employing those color schemes in the comics to such a degree that it works against the thematic intent of the genre?
I think the answer is both yes and no. Yes, if you're embracing Champions Online as a large genre emulation, faithfully reflecting comics. The blackredder aesthetic certainly doesn't dominate the top ten bet selling comic books, or the most successful comic book movies. No, if you're imagining the character as part of the urban fantasy or Iron Age vigilante sub-genres, and you're mentally filtering out those parts of the game that work against your theme, which is almost necessary for any sane approach to theme in a MMO.
Before we get too upset, we have to come to grips with the serious limitations of the medium., MMOs are probably the worst place in gaming to go for genre reinforcement. All you have to do is log onto WoW and try playing your high fantasy character next to Obama Fartbelcher to see how quickly the thematic walls crumble.
So is it unrealistic to expect to see your themes broadly reflected in Champions Online? Almost certainly. Still, the prejudices remain. I like my superheroes to be about hope and making the world a better place, and not just a pack of psychotic gods or realpolitick **** Cheneys in tights. The repudiation of the theme bothers me on a human level.
Silver Age comics were produced for children, and it was the largely unconscious subversion of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby and the other talents at Marvel that slowly worked comics back to being the all ages medium that it was pre-Comics Code, and the characterization of Silver Age heroes show it. They were flat, platitude spouting, and frequently laughable by modern standards. (The Eisenhower/Kennedy generation was very much into encouraging people to avoid the bloody mistakes of the first two world wars, and remarkably earnest at trying to indoctrinate those values into the next generation -- see also the original Star Trek). I can appreciate the trippiness of "Giant Turtle Olson", but those books aren't going to be a place where someone with even my crass, genre cravings are going to go for entertainment. (For what it's worth, my foundational comics were books like Claremont/Byrne X-Men, Simonson's Thor, both thoroughly Bronze age titles, and Miller's Daredevil and Moore's Miracleman, early Iron Age books, as well as a love of Stan/Ditko/Romita Sidey and Lee/Kirby FF, which were among the more sophisticated works of the Silver Age).
However, let us not dismiss the those characters' themes because they were presented with a lack of sophistication intended for readers whose age was in the single digits. The themes of those characters -- hope, compassion, and service are not childish themes. The history of enlightenment and post-enlightenment civilization is largely the struggle to persuade humanity to accept those values -- to repudiate war, slavery, prejudice, lack of personal freedom, and cycles of poverty -- .and the bloody resistance against them by those holding and/or craving power. I believe in promoting those values as the best way for the species to advance in a manner that promotes our collective dignity. They're one of the things that attracts me to comics, and the moral complexity of modern comics has only enhanced them: the struggle for a good person to maintain his goodness in a complicated world is one that interests me, and which I believe is extremely relevant to our times.
I don't enjoy seeing those themes repudiated in favor of their opposites, whether it be aesthetics or a character background choice. I completely understand why the blackredder aesthetic exists, I accept there is a place in the genre for it --- but I still don't like it and wish things were otherwise. However, it's endemic at the larger issue of MMOs and genre emulation, and the only fix for that problem would be a snobbish enforcement of concept that would destroy what little is left of the game population and leave a stifling, self-righteous clique in its place, so it's best to live with it and judiciously use your internal editor to set things right.
However as long as my characters get mocked as tights wearers, I won't shut up about your black and red, and don't give me crap for doing so.
Also, Fletcher Hanks is pretty damn warped. His revenge porn makes the Spectre look downright cuddly.
On a completely unrelated note:
http://www.primusdatabase.com/images/f/fb/Josiah_Brimstone.jpg
http://www.primusdatabase.com/images/2/2d/Black_Paladin.jpg
http://www.primusdatabase.com/images/e/ef/Baddrax.jpg
Though your argument stands if we're simply talking about heroes.
VARIANT
"Nearly all men can withstand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
-Abraham Lincoln-
Dr. Strange's.
You know who's fans look at the other fandoms and and go "..dude. You're taking it too far."
Dr. Strange's.
You know who's fans laugh at the Super SRS mercs, soldiers, grimdarks, and the entire Iron Age?
Dr. Strange's.
You know who's really the only one character that did Black/Red well..?
I rest my case.
*swoon*
I suppose I'm in the minority that likes the characters who's image has changed the least in their entire comic run.. Mainly Strange and Doom.
It's just most of the time he'd rather not be...
did they change that?
He is trying to change his ways and live a quiet life...but keeps getting caught up in situations that require him to be a superhero...it's actually been a great series I think.
no..
BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN! I coulda stopped him... it's all my fault..
(Yeah that window is on a upper floor of a high-rise building. Don't worry someone caught her.)
Technically, it's 'very dark blue', but ask anyone looking at it and it's 'Black with Red', and it's near-impossible to replicate in-game.
And these fellows might find their National Hero's thoughts on the matter disturbing and politely disagree.
It's just a set of colors, and when people in the game get too wrapped up in colors, I find it best to ask which they'd recommend for someone with military heritage and an admiration of the Spartan lifestyle (for the red) and what they'd recommend in a tactical environment for someone (dark colors).
It's a matter of preference.
In my opinion, if someone looks at a set of colors in a combination they dislike and immediately dismisses that character based on those colors?
Well, they're just a snob and I think my greatest super power is being able to function with or without the approval of someone else. You'd be surprised how far it gets me.
That's not the entire uniform. It's "black," blue, red, white, and gold. Having black and red amongst your chosen colors does not put you into the "blackredder" category, I don't think. Predominantly black and red with a color or two for embellishment, yes, closer to "blackredder." But the predominant colors here are Dark blue and blue.
And like Thundrax said, choosing these colors doesn't make you an evil person.
There are, however, subliminal effects of colors. When I think of black and red, I don't think "bright and cheery." I'm not going to treat a person differently because of the colors they've chosen to wear (in real life I rarely wear anything other than black because it's the only color I'm really comfortable in), but my instinct, my gut reaction, when looking at someone in this setting (where violence is everywhere), it makes me think "probably a bad guy."
When I dream, if I am alone in my dream, everything is bright yellow and orange, it's sunny and warm. When there are people around, it's blue, and dark, and cold. In real life, I don't much like being around people I don't know, or a lot of people at once, and I prefer the dark, and I love cold weather. But there's something going on there with the colors, something subconscious.
Colors are important, no just on the surface.
And if that's what you're trying to evoke with your colors, then so be it. Basic color association with me when it comes to heroes?
Black-Night/Dark
Red- Spartans/warrior
White- Medical/clean
Blue- Cool/New
Yellow- Sporty/Loud
I still get hungry when I see brighter reds.
Like I said, people put a bit too much stock in the colors, though.
'LOL Blackredder lame' coming from someone gets an eyeroll from me, especially when it comes from certain members of the 'Capes and Tights are the only legitimate costume' crowd (that has fortunately dwindled). Does it suit the character's personality and concept? Then by all means, this game is 'be the hero you want to be', not 'be the hero that meets someone's standards'. Go with black/red.
My only gripe is when it's black/red like the Zin Empire vehicles in Saint's Row 4. That actually hurt my eyes. A darker, more 'Dark Crimson' works better with black. Bright, borderline neon hurts my eyes.
And mother of God, do I hate Red and Blue together. Just me.
That's not what I'm trying to evoke with colors. It's something subliminal, unconscious. It's not me putting a feeling to a color deliberately.
Hence the shock at seeing these colors on the Fantastic Four. It seems downright antithetical to the history of the characters and the series.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
Agreed. Like, the 'pattern' of the costume, I like. But when someone says 'Fantastic Four', the first thing I think about are those white and blue tights.
I mean, If you showed me a Red/Black Iron Man I'd react the same way. Colors -do- have an important function in the overall characteristics of a character. It's like as important as their mask shape, or their signature weapon.
Captain America in any other colors wouldn't be Captain America, for obvious reasons. But if you showed me a 'new' Black and Green Batman, I'd vomit.
..which is why when I was a kid, I never could by those 'alternative color' action figures. Something about them being anything other than their original colors irked me.
But, I'm also of the belief that a lot of people hate Red/Black because it's 'Deadpool colors', and it's hip and trendy to hate Deadpool now that he's more popular. The comics world is full of hipsters.
The only red in the SS uniform was around their arm, and it was the flag of their nation. I am unsure if that qualifies as a black/red uniform. Of course your argumentation could simply be used on the flag instead. Although they already had a black/white/red one before.
Anyway some more black and red:
(although that is probably a dark blue)
Colors are always chosen for a reason, but sometimes it is probably really because they look good.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
Actually I hate most Black/Red because usually the outfit itself just doesn't look right with those colors. Take the Dr. Strange picture I posted for example.. I honestly can't think of any other color combination that would work the same.
Love Deadpool though, especially in MUA.
They aren't exactly originated because of visual design.
Red/dark red used by Spartans and Romans was to the some extend for practical reason. Red pigment wasn't expensive, but it did hide blood stains rather well.
Through association with old times these two colors started to be viewed as a warrior colors, but their primary reason was practical.
Back then when warrior really wanted to manifest his wealth and badassery, he was wearing deep blue or purple, hands down two the most expensive natural pigments you could think of.
Don't even try to tell me those kids don't look evil.
That's interesting stuff.
My favorites are the Classic
and the Lionsgate Animated Movie
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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/barfs 10 characters
I absolutely love Deadpool; always have. That doesn't mean that I think everyone should be going around colored like him. There are far more colors in the crayon box than black and red and people need to be reminded of that.
Yeah, Dr. Strange's classic costume is much, much better.
They do? I'm pretty sure most of them are aware of that, actually. When I see comments like this, my first impression is:
"People in this game are not meeting my standards of appearance."
I think people need to be reminded that people will choose the colors they like best, and not a single person in this game has any right to think otherwise.
I absolutely despise 'Wolves'. I don't think people need to be reminded there are other animals, I just don't like them.
Fun fact, kids- people are gonna go with what they like. You can not like it all you want, but remember there are reasonable people who think your own preferences are just as absurd.
I dunno, it's certainly possible to fall into a rut, just choosing those colors from the get-go because that's just what you're used to.
One could say the same about any other choice in colors.
Really, in a game where there are 100000 winged wolves and Deathlord Darkspikes with plate mail... I think a Red and Black costume is the least of the 'bad' things you could worry about.
Yes, but which ones are the most predominant? So predominant that there is a name for people who use those colors?
It's certainly not the babyblueyellowers, is it? :P
I see a lot of BLACKBLACK and Black. Like, that bottom black.
As a matter of fact, a cursory stroll into the Ren Center Powerhouse revealed a few, but by no means the most common. White and blue is common, and so is BLACK BLACK and Jesus White.
It's a classic color combination, and it looks good together. Red doesn't always match up so well with other colors, either. With white? Peppermint (Sorry Thundrax!). Red and Green? Christmas. Red and brown? That time I ate too much Chipotle. Red and blue? Eyesore. Red and Yellow? That time I got punched in the kidneys for saying I liked Deathstroke more than Deadpool.
Face it. It's a classic color combination, it looks good together to a lot of people. Hell, how many sports cars are a combination of Black and Red?
Does it fit all concepts? Nope. But it fits mine and a few others.
It's a tag of a very artificial origin.
I didn't really like their future foundation ones either, I think their Ultimate costumes and perhaps original and Fantastic Four: WGH costumes were great.
Marvel, get it right, if you produce a reboot of F4 with THOSE costumes...I will cry for the Invisible Woman..and possibly the Human Torch
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I don't think I have to "face" anything. Not sure you read anything I write but I've mentioned numerous times that I use the color combination sometimes because it's two colors that go well together. You're not telling me anything I don't already know.
However, this guy is. :P I had no idea that it was a Champs thing. I thought it was something that came up from the proliferation of the same styles being used in comics these days.
What exactly makes it an artifical origin? It's a trend, that's not only been used in this game, and someone has put a name to it.
If you count people complaining at this forum, it's no more than ten people, at best. Even considering how low is CO population, is hardly a representative group, even if a very loud one.
Of course black and red is a popular combo.
So it's blue-white, or red-white, or red-yellow. Or black and white. Or a few other combinations of primary colors.
Funny how you think I was talking only about this game.
Now look at these costumes. Can you think of other pallets that they would work with? Me personally, I can't (Except for the first.)
Hm... let's see... possibly a few metallic colors would work, like golds or silvers. Heck, even adding in a darker green somewhere. Or a gray. Or brown.
Honestly, they do need something.
Kudos on the Dr. Strange costume, though.
There are other dark colors than black. Use the darker blues.
Jackets 1-3 could even be darker brown, Leather as the material.
Too much black just makes the whole costume a smudge.
Or add a 3rd color to the pallet. Balances things up.
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His current look is black and gold, rather than blue and gold, but you get the idea, right?
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Blackredder is a destiny.
<-- btw, check out my custom forum title :biggrin:
But you're right...it's all going Blackredder. Red Hulk. Dr. Strange. The Bat family. FF.
I got a question, though:
Finn, tell you you photoshopped this. Otherwise, we've suddenly gone back to the '90s.
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It's the bold new direction.
http://graphicpolicy.com/2013/11/14/cornell-stegman-tear-into-wolverine-1-for-all-new-marvel-now/
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Is how you do 'black' and 'red' I suppose the aren't really black and red at all but yeah you get my point. Use darker colours or a darker grey and use a more saturated red. >.>
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Now, of course, it's expanded to the point where some use that to describe any costume that uses the colors black and red at the same time, even if they're the minor components in a larger combination.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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That comic should be renamed to THE FANTASTIC DOOM!
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They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!