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The Dodge changes and YOU. (What do I do now!?!?)
cheesesloppy
Posts: 245 Arc User
As the title says, what do you do now that dodge is no longer the 'goto' stat to make yourself as resilient as the guy with Invulnerability? With the dodge changes coming in pretty fast(Later today, really), you might all be wondering. Well, with this large gap between the time where I woke up and how I'm still awake, I decided to postpone bed even more by making this thread!
So, whether or not you came here to actually read what I have to say or tell me how wrong I am, read on and I shall gift upon you my wisdom.
The answer is really simple, actually. Those dodge items? keep using them. 8% extra dodge at level 40 with a rank 5 Gamblers gem is pretty sweet. Especially since that brings it to 18%, for a chance to halve damage, if you have avoidance on the item. Beyond that? Constitution.
Yes, that's right. Take the HP stat. Instant increase in surviability. If you're a freeform, Superstat it! You're a Blade or Inferno? Pick one of the more less useful stats(Recovery and endurance... kinda, respectively), and chip some points away to instead get some constitution. Oh yes, I forgot about Growth Gems and + HP secondaries. Get those, too!
'But Turbo!', you might say, 'I shouldn't have to sacrifice my other superstats to be more durable! I want to be the best DPS, but also tank everything!' To which I must reply, why? That's not fair or balanced in any way, shape or form. In my honest opinion, you SHOULD have to sacrifice something to be more durable.
This is, after all, a Game.
TL;DR: Archetypes: Take a dodge item, stat some Constitution. Oh yeah, get some healing patches from the recognition vendors.
Freeforms: Same thing. Take some healing powers. Just stop pretending it's fair that you can stat dodge and be nigh-unkillable. That's unbalanced and you know it.
So, whether or not you came here to actually read what I have to say or tell me how wrong I am, read on and I shall gift upon you my wisdom.
The answer is really simple, actually. Those dodge items? keep using them. 8% extra dodge at level 40 with a rank 5 Gamblers gem is pretty sweet. Especially since that brings it to 18%, for a chance to halve damage, if you have avoidance on the item. Beyond that? Constitution.
Yes, that's right. Take the HP stat. Instant increase in surviability. If you're a freeform, Superstat it! You're a Blade or Inferno? Pick one of the more less useful stats(Recovery and endurance... kinda, respectively), and chip some points away to instead get some constitution. Oh yes, I forgot about Growth Gems and + HP secondaries. Get those, too!
'But Turbo!', you might say, 'I shouldn't have to sacrifice my other superstats to be more durable! I want to be the best DPS, but also tank everything!' To which I must reply, why? That's not fair or balanced in any way, shape or form. In my honest opinion, you SHOULD have to sacrifice something to be more durable.
This is, after all, a Game.
TL;DR: Archetypes: Take a dodge item, stat some Constitution. Oh yeah, get some healing patches from the recognition vendors.
Freeforms: Same thing. Take some healing powers. Just stop pretending it's fair that you can stat dodge and be nigh-unkillable. That's unbalanced and you know it.
Post edited by cheesesloppy on
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My Dodge based characters will get more Dodge from powers*, and less from gear, making things even out fairly clisely.
My non-dodge based characters will still be getting bonus dodge from their gear, and if I got them from 1 to 40 with no dodge (I always level with Heirloom or 11k Q gear - no dodge there), then any Dodge added at 40 is just a bonus, not a requirement.
*Yes, I know Quarry is getting nerfed. Honestly, I've never used it for the Dodge, or even for Audacity. I absolutely ADORE the Heal on Kill Advantage. So again, no change necessary.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
I'm sure they're find another "I win" button to push somewhere.
Wait? Whaaaa..?
Or attempt to outright hack the game.
A few swapping of mods to gain more defense and HP but that really is about it.
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But taking a dodge item was okay, right?
For you, I have another suggestion. In fact I'll put it in the main post. +HP items.
Unless you're a conventional tank. Then that justifies Con as a Super Stat.
I think you have misunderstood. 1 r5 gambler in a heroic agility is 14%. 2 r7s in a legion agility was 18% last I checked.
That's not 8% extra dodge. Base is 10%. 4% vs 39.2 and 8% vs 54%.
Your math is off. You would need 100% dodge and around 50% avoidance to get "half-damage".
Well, if R5 only gives 4% then, yes, his math is off, but he didn't say "half damage" he said it was an 18% chance "to halve damage, if you have an avoidance item." Which should be right, I'm pretty sure the Breastplate of Agility gets you to 50% avoidance.
He probably should edit his sentence to phrase it more clearly.
That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
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Base dodge chance is 10%. My Primary Defense has a rank 5 gamblers gem, which gives me 8%. I have Heroic Agility, which gives 55% last I checked. So, yeah, if you dodged you'd reduce the damage by half. It was 6am when I made that post and CO is currently down so I can't check my numbers, so I may very well be wrong on the avoidance part. Once CO becomes un-broken, I'll check all the numbers and edit the post to reflect such.
Still, 39% is better than 20%.
Dude, dodge does not halve anything. Wtf?
39.2% Dodge, 58.7 Avoid
(1 r5 gambler)
Base numbers from Legion Agility
54% dodge 58.7 Avoid
(2 r7 Gambler)
If we estimate that avoidance around 50% mitigation, you reduce damage by half somewhere between 40-50% of the time, taking full damage otherwise.
In reality you mitigate far less than 50%, because you have to take the full damage taken into calculation as well.
You would average around 20-25% total mitigation, though that technically falls apart if a big hit gets through and kills you outright.
Now while avoidance is more or less the same, instead of 39.2 and 54% we see 4% and 8%.
You're looking at more like 2% and 4% total mitigation - unless you have powers that can buff dodge high enough to hit practical numbers, defense stacking actually provides better mitigation for a change, and sadly not by a lot unless you're multiplying it heavily with spec trees.
Seems to work fine to me.
I dunno, it seemed like Avoidance was doing a lot more than 25%. It deserves MORE TESTING. But yes, if a big hit gets through, that's a problem. As such, that's what the extra consitution would be for. +HP too.
I honestly cannot emphizie with you because I've played with a LR character, Dex Str/Int, and I did just fine.
HOWEVER, your total mitigation is dependent on your chance. Mitigating half damage 18 times out of 100 hits means you're getting far less than 50% mitigation.
Yes, you keep writing off defense like it's useless. 80% resist all = all damage divided by 1.8, or nearly half.
An 18% chance to half the damage you take of the attack. That is exactly what I meant.
And that is why I am telling people that it is time to look at a more stable solution. Boosts to HP directly increase your survivability. The rest is up to your luck if you use dodge, or if you remember to Block.
First - everyone gets defense - the only matter is how much. If its always in effect, its not necessary for calculating mitigation for outside sources (like dodge)
Second - 81 defense is about 18-19% resistance, and you have to stack heavily for def numbers to really get a boost. Even then its still limited
At over 300 defense, I was still mitigating less than 50% without a def passive. Those that need def the most (ie ATs) rarely have the option of stacking it. With a def passive defense you end up hitting diminishing returns anyway.
Mitigating 18000 of a 100,000 damage hit is meaningless since the hit kills you anyway.
If you understood the math, you would already know why HP boosts barely made a dent to adding survivability vs mitigation, and why dodge was so heavily favored over defense.
If you don't understand the math, you shouldn't be telling people anything.
Yes of course everyone gets it - however, Resistance is GREATLY magnified when you blend it with other forms of mitigation. It's also a standard option for every superstat choice. There are ways to magnify your Resist All in Protector, Guardian, Warden, Sentry and Vindicator, plus adjuncts (+Offense, if you have Vindicator first) in in every other spec tree except Sentinel and Commander. I don't know why you keep crapping on Defense. How is it limited?
Dude read that again:
Are you really saying taking 60% damage without doing anything at all, just standing there with no defensive powers or blocking or anything, is not valuable? Regarding ATs, all of the Tank role ATs can increase their defense from gear by ~80%. All of the ranged DPS ATs can increase theirs by ~50% (and they all have Guardian so probably should). Most of the melee DPS ATs have Vindicator(!)
Is a 100k hit your baseline?
ps speaking of math, under what circumstance were you saying you'd only mitigate 18k out of 100k? Not if you had 300 defense, that'd be 100k / 1.71, or 58,479 damage taken - you're still dead but get your math right bro
You should stop being so rude to people that don't immediately pat you on the back for saying dodge is a good mechanic. High health obviously does increase your survivability. I don't think it should be necessary to explain to you how it works differently from dodge, right? But it plainly does make you more survivable.
I may not get the math 100%, but what I do get is the results of my tests on the PTS.
Theory vs Practice, and what I have seen on the PTS convinces me that this change is not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. If I did absolutely no testing, and relied purely on what what everyone else has said, then yeah my tune would be wildly different by now.
Maybe I need to make a video so people look at it in action rather than stress about numbers.
I never said it was invaluable - but in order to hit those numbers you have to specifically build for it. Even FFs with Guardian/warden & vindicator won't necessarily hit those numbers. Most ATs won't ever come close.
You obviously have no idea of what the AT spec trees are like if you assume they all have guardian and Melee ATs all have vindicator.
Is a 100k hit your baseline?
ps speaking of math, under what circumstance were you saying you'd only mitigate 18k out of 100k? Not if you had 300 defense, that'd be 100k / 1.71, or 58,479 damage taken - you're still dead but get your math right bro[/QUOTE]
Most bosses won't hit anywhere close to 100k, it was more for simplification and example of extreme boss damage that has made dodge virtually a requirement in situations like Grav.
18% mitigation should be obvious with those numbers, which is about what you get with 81 def. It was rounded for simplicity bro.
Did you test in alerts? Would guess not since there's hardly enough people around to.
You won't see the impact unless you fight something heavy duty, and typical PTS testing won't reveal the full picture.
Even tough rated mobs in standard alerts hit harder than most npcs you'll find in the open world, let alone extreme damage output like Gravitar or Cybermind or Forum Malvanum.
You're also probably not running ATs, a factor most people testing on PTS ignore because as subscribers most don't have ATs or significant experience with them to begin with.
The 5 man team spawn in Ph is hardly reflective of typical content these days.
Squall, Soldier and Scourge/Cursed (essentially the same AT) do not have Guardian, but Soldier and Squall have Vindicator (actually better for this purpose). Of the melee DPS ATs, yes, most of them do have Vindicator, which is what I said, please read more closely. Every other AT except Inventor has access to +30% Def from items or more from their role perk trees, and some amount from their superstat tree, whether in the form of increased % from items or in raw Defense from superstats. Obviously nobody will get over 81 def if everyone is always fitting Legion dodge gear with all dodge mods, sure!
And there you go again with this notion that alerts are so brutally hard and dodge is an absolute requirement for anyone to survive in them. Seriously ALERTS?
e: caveat, okay there's the two support ATs that have Sentry, which provides raw Resist All rather than +Defense (mathematically it comes out to around the same total in my experience)
18.3% dodge chance
55% Avoidance
30% with Quarry.
Notice you had to edit your original post to regain some credibility there
When you've had to tank as often as I have on a lowly Cursed AT, you'd realize why I've placed so much significance there. Not only do I have a Con secondary SS, a AD heal (resurge) but had to invest in necrull's and eruption.
I shouldn't have to tank - but the reality is any alert I run I need to be prepared to because its a likely (albeit unfortunate) possibility.
I shelved most of my ATs because it simply wasn't worth spending over 1k on devices just to make running their dailys more bearable.
I do play smart as an AT, there are a number of people who can attest to that. Good play only goes so far in compensating for inherent weakness.
Just a few weeks ago I was doing a grab as a 40 FF as a quarry PA with 4 random people level 15 or less. There were 4 deaths before we even cleared a single group. 2 people quit shortly thereafter. The other two stuck around since I was carrying the alert and did their best to contribute, dying repeatedly all the while.
I'm no longer gonna be around to be one of those people carrying lowbies through alerts. I know I won't be the only one leaving. Things like that trickle down and have effects on the population.
It's already a moot point as the changes went live - but if I'm so wrong and the game miraculously flourishes then it's a win for the people who stay.
...wait wait wait wait.
What the hell are your ATs? Infernos? No AT is that weak except the Ranged ones. If you need to spend 1K on stuff to make them preform better, you did something wrong in either build, specs, or all around playstyle. It's a player problem, not an AT Problem.
That's the pot calling the kettle black don't you think?
Why yes I have an inferno and she often gets stuck tanking as well - she's got supernatural possession and heroic resonance but it's not fun when someone decides to aggro 3 groups of tough mobs.
My unleashed was relatively fine but bcr only goes so far - she tends to tank as well from generating threat.
My soldier has topped open missions like Thrash of the Lich King but it must be pure luck, not the fact that her hits register more often than my FFs and the lack of her output being affected by DR. Couldn't quite keep up with Rob's Bullet, but I still beat him once or twice.
My blade has MD and WoTW but the lack of self healing aside from a heroic resonance and supernatural possession made her more a liability. The lack of effective aoes didn't help either.
My mind was supplemental - having bubbles and a self heal kept deaths to a minimum but her main team contribution were her auras. When teams had no need for said auras....
My radiant's sole benefit was being the one AT with a res power. A doomlord or celestial allows everyone to do that, without being limited to being a radiant.
My invincible is decent - but he's got a def passive and a self-heal. Still a poor choice for tanking anything heavy duty like elite TT or Grav without support, unlike most of my ATs, he's less vulnerable to teammates training excessive mobs onto the team.
My behemoth turned Devastator only exists to have a reason to use Therakial's sword in a costume. As a behemoth we ran TT elite on a team of 4 ATs backed by an FF healer. As a dev she's still got some survivability and the con stacking helps. Enrage and spec trees being her only source of healing only go so far.
My marksman is the most dodge heavy of the bunch. Even with 124+ con, the dodge factor only goes so far with limited self-healing. Taking r2 quarry with the advantage severely inhibits damage and fails to provide healing when needed most (bosses).
But aside from playing every role and solid pvp experience I apparently have no clue of what I'm talking about based on those standards, not to mention the 8 FFs I have, like the AoPM setup that I had tanking Grav yesterday before the dodge changes went into effect.
I just checked, and my mistake they buffed numbers since I last saw. Still 18.3 vs 39.2 is a huge hit, the avoidance not so much.
As an invul you should do fine if you can heal in warlord - I usually grab 2 hallways and the final room before i start fighting back and tank it all solo on my invul.
Where have I been rude to you, also didn't you quit
So.. you're mad because team content requires you to work as a team.
Logic error.
Cool. When is this change going to Live?
Well, considering the Voids high HP, I'd say so.
Let me guess... someone's gonna say "We shouldn't have to move around and use our blocks! facetanking everything is our god given right no matter what role or passive we pick"
If your teammates decide to aggro 3 groups of mobs... dont rush in and aoe like crazy... oh wait, lemme guess, someone's gonna say "We shouldn't have to be smart about how we use our powers! Spamming aoe all the time is our god given right no matter what role or passive we pick"
There's a lot of things you can do to survive. Try some of them... you might actually have fun.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
and in case you think I'm being sarcastic, no, someone actually said literally that
Tomorrow, after I give away some keys for AT PVP to enjoy my main (or try to) one last time.
In the meanwhile I have a few more things to give away and am still sorting now.
That alone was fairly rude, and that was just this thread. It's not like this is the only thread that has "discussed" the changes in depth.
Most of my FFs will do fine even in the hardest content because I built them to be able to. Silver players and ATs as a whole don't have that luxury.
As mentioned above - just sorting through stuff I haven't given away yet already - no point in it going to waste if someone else can enjoy it. I like to be considerate of the experience other players have, not simply assume mine is what everyone has.
Telling someone they're being rude is one thing. Being rude in response makes you no better.
But really, why the need to be so aggressive over this, people will either choose to stay or go. Then when the cds get nerfed, people will once again choose to stay or go.
I've simply tried to emphasize that the people downplaying the nerfs aren't seeing a bigger picture. The fact that they need to resort to insults or refer to this as "forum pvp" says more about their stance than I ever could.
I'll probably break over 30-40k worth of giveaways by the time I finish, but truth be told I'm giving away stuff for more than just myself. I was clearly not the only person upset by the changes, as well as the future direction. If I'm blowing things out of proportion, than all the folks I've given stuff to will have plenty of time to enjoy my gifts.
But I would say the general decline of the market was already pretty indicative. On the bright side, they are adding some much needed changes.
Oh cut the crap already Gradii...
1. So statting dodge/avoid is OK, but statting for HP, defense, or healing isn't? DOUBLE STANDARD MUCH?!
2. Never met an unkillable character? Then you're blind. They've been all over the place.
In fact, until the Legacy Device nerf it was as easy as getting 5 Eruptions and going primary INT with cooldown redux gear and Revitalize + Radiance. Even without it devices, very easy to make an nearly unkillable dodge & heals tank with the right setup. And when I say nearly unkillable I mean that it takes 5 strong PvP builds to take out one heavily stacked defense player. Been there done that in team duels, BASH, etc. The threat PvE enemies provide pails in comparison to what players who are properly setup and skilled can do to attack, do if you're nearly unkillable in several people versus you alone in PvP, you're going to be god-like in PvE.
tl;dr
Gradii has no clue what the hell she/he is talking about. People should stop listening to her/his whining about dodge/avoid gear getting a nerf.
Remember, the focus needs to be on "characters first". That means YOUR character's own powers, advantages, specializations, talents, etc. Gear is the next priority. And devices after that. But gear and devices should be there to support your character, not replace you.
+1 for being observant
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
Everyone is killable, unrestricted pvp is proof of that. The hardest person to kill that I can recall was Wesley's Paragon, and when his specialized build was nerfed even as a lifer he left.
No player is immune to death - everything has a cd and every character has a window of vulnerability.
Having seen Alyssa in action, I'm inclined to take AgentNX5's word on this. If he can't kill something, then it's unkillable or a reasonable approximation thereof.
I just realized something. While the dodge nerf might lower Alyssa's defense (on paper) the offense buff is going to send her damage to even more ridiculous levels. I'm scared. O_O
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