Has anyone here considered that, if Cryptic North was working on The Foundry, telling us at this point in time would be a terrible move?
Sort of like how if you were married, you'd found your wife looking at new places to live, had seen a card for a divorce attorney, and the marriage was becoming stagnant- you'd want to wait to start making the changes she's asked for instead of showing a gradual progression working to a goal?
All I hope is that, if they're working on it, they finish it before our toxic player base alienates Cryptic North the same way they alienated Cryptic the first time with their endless complains and doom saying.
Yeah, we've really alienated them. There have been so many of us that shunned them from the start. After all, they came in here to these forums and made an announcement directly to their player base. Since January they've been in direct communication with us fairly consistently, and we've seen something akin to a plan for where Champions Online is going next.
Oh, wait, no. The playerbase isn't acting like a bunch of mindless fanboys that seem to think Cryptic is their daddy.
Not only must you be new here, you must be new, PERIOD. Go play another game, seriously- and watch how their community and communication are and then come back here and you'll see that what this is?
A multitude of players have been flat-out ignored. By this, I mean game-breaking problems players pointed out from the start that made it to the live server.
Problems players have been pointing out since release, and for a good long time- this is year 4 and they're JUST NOW working on bugs that other games would've squashed within a month.
The NUMBER ONE problem people complain about in this game- the Chat Ban thing? No one ever wanted this thing. No one wants it now. We've been begging for it to be fixed since it showed its face. Well, it is STILL THERE. Not listening to your playerbase in an MMORPG means you're not making a game people will enjoy, you're making your pet project and don't care about the players.
The one thing most of the game's players have been begging for has been blatantly ignored. I asked for a costume set- ANY costume set to be released in the C-Store, and made it clear I would drop $300 a month in Zen every month toward CO if they'd release one by July. LOLNOPE. Couldn't even do that.
I want you to research 'Maintenance Mode' and tell me who alienated who here.
on the other hand I have no sympathy whatsoever for the ones saying . Theres some each time an event is on in the amphitheatre.
I wish that this cake/tree would go away so that we could duel.
Guys(and gals) there's a BIG park next to the city. nice flat open space, only a few trees. Or if you're feeling optimistic(or possibly suicidal, use the flat round bit the helicopter is parked on.
You don't have to be in the amphitheatre to duel.
There are also several arenas in the Powerhouse designed specifically for dueling. If people want to watch, there's even a place for an audience to sit! I get the feeling that nobody's using the Arenas, though, from the number of rockets I keep stumbling across in RenCen.
The need some seem to feel to duel in the middle of RenCen has irked me for some time. I dislike needing to disable all name displays just so I can go to the Tailor or the Bank without my display going slideshow - which is the net effect when there's a crowd in RenCen, two dueling and the rest watching the duel. Why aren't you people using the provided facilities?
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
There are also several arenas in the Powerhouse designed specifically for dueling. If people want to watch, there's even a place for an audience to sit! I get the feeling that nobody's using the Arenas, though, from the number of rockets I keep stumbling across in RenCen.
The need some seem to feel to duel in the middle of RenCen has irked me for some time. I dislike needing to disable all name displays just so I can go to the Tailor or the Bank without my display going slideshow - which is the net effect when there's a crowd in RenCen, two dueling and the rest watching the duel. Why aren't you people using the provided facilities?
I think the main problem with this is that they need to DO something while watching, so they use that time watching in rencen to troll in zonechat....in the powerhouse they're just cut off from their lifeline lol.
The lag they produce irks me a bit as well. Saphire and her damn cake seems a godsend when considering this.
"Do you know what power is? Power is control of men who are lesser than you."
Yes, I think what irks me more than promised content is what you perfectly describe as "our toxic playerbase". I for one, returned in July, and although the thing with the lockboxes is totally new to me, I am not minding it so much because what makes me stay in the game is all the content I haven't even played yet.
So you must have been playing for month.
Our 'Toxic Playerbase', isn't what you think it is. As a matter of fact, do you know what's bad for a game? Let's discuss this.
People being critical of a product and providing feedback on how said product could be improved and therfore made more enjoyable, and wanting to see the products capability expanded. When the product falls short these people offer criticism and suggestions.
OR...
People who tell the other customers to shut up, tell the business to ignore the customers, and gladly nod and take anything they're shoveled from said company.
I'll take the former, and if you want you can call it a 'toxic' playerbase. Personally, if these few players destroy the game- well, then you didn't have a solid game and you probably shouldn't be making them if you can't handle criticism. Good riddance, Darwin knocks at your door.
This idea with the Foundry seems to be a very big thing, and to make a premature announcement would be a deathknell. Anyone who has borne and raised children into this world knows exactly that this would be a bad business, because like children, the playerbase seems to lack the patience and common sense to accept a " no foundry at present". Of course, I'm generalizing, but I don't mean the entirety of the playerbase, but if what i have written makes you feel a certain way, so be it. The shoe fits.
Anyone who has done anything else in their life other than lay around and breed children knows also that communication and laying out a plan for people who have invested in your product is crucial. While no 'definite' announcement is understandable- at least some sort of statement in regards to this would be not only acceptable, but highly advisable at this time (as Trailturtle has done). The 'Premature Announcement' would be no more a Death Knell than the silence, but like I said- it takes doing more in life than breeding to understand this concept.
I mean Hotdamn people, if you can wait 2 whole years for a promise that hasn't even been made properly and still haven't stopped playing the game, 2 more years will just be water off a ducks back. the playerbase spends most of their gaming time in zonechat with their " I wish they had this, and I wish they had that" and all of it preferrably yesterday, and wholeheartedly believe that new players would absolutely NOT get turned off by their constant complaining. Like a drug addict complaining of getting methadone instead of heroin, when both practically have the same effect. But then the influx of Coh and COX players increased in my absence, and many old timers say the increase in whining at the same time is just not so coincidental.
As a matter of fact, after reading this, I'm going to ask you to also stop breeding. Everything from the first line was drivel. Please also never make any business decisions, and for the LVOE OF GOD don't join the military.
That playerbase that's complaining? That's the one making the investment. And if you make above minimum wage, you understand that those customers are what makes you money. Ignoring them is folly.
You criticize them for complaining. Well, since all you know is breeding- a basic biological function of even the most base creature on this planet- let me explain it to you with kids: You are sitting and telling me how wonderful and easy it is to be a parent, that I don't have a reason to be tired and stressed, just because you've been holding one of my kids in your lap for fifteen minutes while he's asleep.
Treating the devs and the team like your own personal butler troupe is not only uncalled for, it makes you look silly. And it mars any hope of decent conversation. You can disagree all you want, but acting like TrailTurtle has more power in this than he does is just lazy thinking, especially when you can't even read what he wrote and make assumptions that reek of manure.
No one is acting like they're our Butler Troupe. No one, at all. As a matter of fact- when you give us a voice, we'll use it. When you ask for feedback, we give it. When we're not satisfied- we voice it.
So before you attack this playerbase that knows much, much more about this game than you do- go and finish your content. We'll see you next month.
There are also several arenas in the Powerhouse designed specifically for dueling. If people want to watch, there's even a place for an audience to sit! I get the feeling that nobody's using the Arenas, though, from the number of rockets I keep stumbling across in RenCen.
The need some seem to feel to duel in the middle of RenCen has irked me for some time. I dislike needing to disable all name displays just so I can go to the Tailor or the Bank without my display going slideshow - which is the net effect when there's a crowd in RenCen, two dueling and the rest watching the duel. Why aren't you people using the provided facilities?
The provided facilities do not meet the needs of the dueling community. The problems with the design were pointed out during the concept and testing phases of their development but they were pushed ahead despite the fact that the arenas, as designed, are actually less useful, or not useful at all, to the intended users, than the open world.
Would people be using the CC stage area if it was designed to prevent participants from seeing the contestants' costumes ?
Our 'Toxic Playerbase', isn't what you think it is. As a matter of fact, do you know what's bad for a game? Let's discuss this.
People being critical of a product and providing feedback on how said product could be improved and therfore made more enjoyable, and wanting to see the products capability expanded. When the product falls short these people offer criticism and suggestions.
OR...
People who tell the other customers to shut up, tell the business to ignore the customers, and gladly nod and take anything they're shoveled from said company.
I'll take the former, and if you want you can call it a 'toxic' playerbase. Personally, if these few players destroy the game- well, then you didn't have a solid game and you probably shouldn't be making them if you can't handle criticism. Good riddance, Darwin knocks at your door.
It's all in the delivery, my friend. Constructive criticism and ranting and raving is, and always will be, a difference from day to night. It's not about telling the business to ignore the customers, it's about knowing how and when to affectively make your opinion known. The toxicity level in the playerbase has most certainly increased, but if you cannot tell that you are beating a dead horse on certain subjects, then what you need to do is either say adieu, or have a damn seat.
Anyone who has done anything else in their life other than lay around and breed children knows also that communication and laying out a plan for people who have invested in your product is crucial. While no 'definite' announcement is understandable- at least some sort of statement in regards to this would be not only acceptable, but highly advisable at this time (as Trailturtle has done). The 'Premature Announcement' would be no more a Death Knell than the silence, but like I said- it takes doing more in life than breeding to understand this concept.
Trailturtle has said " No foundry at this time" plentiful times, Cyber. Yet there are those that still believe that after every new announcement, that they must take the time to write lengthy posts about how a foundry would benefit the game ( which I happen to believe is true, especially where Sg's are concerned and the strengthening of events in sg's etcetera). And as to the other little comment, assumptions are tools for fools, don't let your sexism override your ability to handle yourself in a conversation.
As a matter of fact, after reading this, I'm going to ask you to also stop breeding. Everything from the first line was drivel. Please also never make any business decisions, and for the LVOE OF GOD don't join the military.
That playerbase that's complaining? That's the one making the investment. And if you make above minimum wage, you understand that those customers are what makes you money. Ignoring them is folly.
You criticize them for complaining. Well, since all you know is breeding- a basic biological function of even the most base creature on this planet- let me explain it to you with kids: You are sitting and telling me how wonderful and easy it is to be a parent, that I don't have a reason to be tired and stressed, just because you've been holding one of my kids in your lap for fifteen minutes while he's asleep.
I grew up in the military, and have lost family due to the military, so take your condescending crap and swallow it, it has no business here. I also later worked with the military, and the game is still the same only the players have become more uneducated and brainwashable. How ad hominum you are, well heres some ad hominum right back at you: Obviously one of the basic biological functions malfunctioned somehwere, judging from the sexism dripping from your response.
No one is acting like they're our Butler Troupe. No one, at all. As a matter of fact- when you give us a voice, we'll use it. When you ask for feedback, we give it. When we're not satisfied- we voice it.
So before you attack this playerbase that knows much, much more about this game than you do- go and finish your content. We'll see you next month.
Must be hard being so delusional as to who is and who isn't allowed to have an opinion. "no one at all" Oh please go jump in a river. You obviously aren't old enough to understand the difference about blatant *itching and voicing an opinion. Just because you decide to voice one, doesn't make it valid if the tone you are using is beneath rationality.
"Do you know what power is? Power is control of men who are lesser than you."
It's all in the delivery, my friend. Constructive criticism and ranting and raving is, and always will be, a difference from day to night. It's not about telling the business to ignore the customers, it's about knowing how and when to affectively make your opinion known. The toxicity level in the playerbase has most certainly increased, but if you cannot tell that you are beating a dead horse on certain subjects, then what you need to do is either say adieu, or have a damn seat.
Trailturtle has said " No foundry at this time" plentiful times, Cyber. Yet there are those that still believe that after every new announcement, that they must take the time to write lengthy posts about how a foundry would benefit the game ( which I happen to believe is true, especially where Sg's are concerned and the strengthening of events in sg's etcetera). And as to the other little comment, assumptions are tools for fools, don't let your sexism override your ability to handle yourself in a conversation.
I grew up in the military, and have lost family due to the military, so take your condescending crap and swallow it, it has no business here. I also later worked with the military, and the game is still the same only the players have become more uneducated and brainwashable. How ad hominum you are, well heres some ad hominum right back at you: Obviously one of the basic biological functions malfunctioned somehwere, judging from the sexism dripping from your response.
Must be hard being so delusional as to who is and who isn't allowed to have an opinion. "no one at all" Oh please go jump in a river. You obviously aren't old enough to understand the difference about blatant *itching and voicing an opinion. Just because you decide to voice one, doesn't make it valid if the tone you are using is beneath rationality.
it's not an ad hominem if he actually addressed your post and you just didn't like what he had to say, by the by. Ad hominem "attacks" are when somebody attacks the character of the debater, rather than the content of their argument. If he argues your view and then calls you stupid, then it's not an ad hominem, it's just rude.
I also didn't see any sexism, although i can only assume you're referring to "laying around breeding children" - and last I checked, it still takes two people of the opposite sex to make them. In fact, the only thing sexist here is your assumption that he was referring to either gender specifically.
He didn't by the way, must be that military education, what with excellent reading comprehension skills that you have been displaying. Lord knows they're known for coopting all the geniuses in your country and not poverty stricken ignorant children barely out of highschool completely unaware that being in the military means little more than supporting a corrupt and horrible military industrial complex, that you are apparently so proud of. So let's not play the military card, mkay? It's a trite, irrelevant fact that doesn't lend any credence whatsoever to your argument.
Trailturtle, as much as we all love him, in the end, is nothing more than a mouthpiece for his corporate overseerers. TT is awesome and I truly believe he does everything he can for this community, even when it is a thankless job. But to sit there and say this game has been treated fairly at all is disingenuous in the extreme. What is TT going to do? Crush all our hopes and dreams and have a significant number of people on this forum walk away from the game? of course not.
I'm not saying you can't enjoy the game as is, you can, there's nothing wrong with that. But there is also nothing wrong with people expressing a dissatisfied opinion. Maybe you prefer a military lifestyle where your opinions are predetermined for you by a higher authority, but most of us actually do prefer critical thinking and giving critical feedback. Yes, some people can express it hotly, but, only because they are passionate about the game and want to see it succeed. They see that 'everything' they have suggested gets ignored, while they are strung a long with a trainwreck of substandard, short, temporary content. So yeah, sometimes they let their anger get the best of them and they rant and rave a little... So what? it's a forum. And everyone here is entitled to an opinion (even you, unfortunately). if you don't like what you're seeing, then do what you're best at: Shutting your eyes and ignoring the obvious.
It's all in the delivery, my friend. Constructive criticism and ranting and raving is, and always will be, a difference from day to night. It's not about telling the business to ignore the customers, it's about knowing how and when to affectively make your opinion known. The toxicity level in the playerbase has most certainly increased, but if you cannot tell that you are beating a dead horse on certain subjects, then what you need to do is either say adieu, or have a damn seat.
And do tell me, what is 'whining'? After all, you stated yourself that 'All you hear' is 'why don't we have this' and 'why not that'. In my personal opinion, that's not 'ranting and raving'. Let's face it this way, your opinion seems to be 'I'm tired of hearing people say what they want'. Sure. Some people can be rude, but if a bad attitude or disgruntled player is 'toxic' to this game, then by all means the game didn't have a leg to stand on and was weak. I have a very difficult time believing that all the 'stupid whiney self-entitled brats' are just flocking to CO and destroying it. As I've seen, the players have kept this game afloat and helped it far more when they are acknowledged.
Trailturtle has said " No foundry at this time" plentiful times, Cyber. Yet there are those that still believe that after every new announcement, that they must take the time to write lengthy posts about how a foundry would benefit the game ( which I happen to believe is true, especially where Sg's are concerned and the strengthening of events in sg's etcetera). And as to the other little comment, assumptions are tools for fools, don't let your sexism override your ability to handle yourself in a conversation.
1- I'm cool with waiting for a foundry. I'm pretty much the type to 'wait and get it right' rather than someone cobble something together and throw it at me. I want to see one. And to be fair? I don't know a lot about the Foundry system, but you know? People have every right to say why they want it. If you don't like it, I think you should take your own advice and say adios and have a seat. Your 'being tired of hearing it' doesn't invalidate what anyone else wants.
2- It takes 2 to breed, both genders, so 'sexism' is just a poor attempt to cry 'foul' because you don't like what I have to say. I know plenty of cases where that's all that both genders have proven themselves capable of. Swing and a miss.
I grew up in the military, and have lost family due to the military, so take your condescending crap and swallow it, it has no business here. I also later worked with the military, and the game is still the same only the players have become more uneducated and brainwashable. How ad hominum you are, well heres some ad hominum right back at you: Obviously one of the basic biological functions malfunctioned somehwere, judging from the sexism dripping from your response.
Again, there's no sexism, but nice try. If you believe that only one gender is responsible for breeding and bears that entirely, I believe that in itself is sexism.
Now, as far as 'condescending', I believe you started that way and I'm willing to play nice with you. But take your own advice a second time and swallow it. I'm willing to pour you a glass of 'reality' to help with that thick lil' pill if you want. Face it- this game lacks, Read ANY review of it. It's not the community being 'toxic'. After all, it's kind of a moot point to poison a man dying of starvation.
Must be hard being so delusional as to who is and who isn't allowed to have an opinion. "no one at all" Oh please go jump in a river. You obviously aren't old enough to understand the difference about blatant *itching and voicing an opinion. Just because you decide to voice one, doesn't make it valid if the tone you are using is beneath rationality.
Since you know enough about the military, allow me to make an example you can understand:
"Kettle, this is Pot. Kettle, this is Pot, how copy?"
"Roger, Pot. This is Kettle Actual. Send your traffic."
"YOU'RE BLACK."
You're defending your own opinion but labeling anything that complains as 'toxic'. Anyone who 'wants more' is 'whining'. Anyone who states why they want a foundry is 'tiresome'. So who has tried to halt opinion, who's defending the rights of those opinions?
And I'd rather jump in a lake, the rivers tend to have garbage in them around here. But the sandbars are nice. When you get done swallowing your own condescending attitude, and polish of that cold glass of reality, I've got a cooler of beer at this lake and you're welcome to join me for one.
He didn't by the way, must be that military education, what with excellent reading comprehension skills that you have been displaying. Lord knows they're known for coopting all the geniuses in your country and not poverty stricken ignorant children barely out of highschool completely unaware that being in the military means little more than supporting a corrupt and horrible military industrial complex, that you are apparently so proud of. So let's not play the military card, mkay? It's a trite, irrelevant fact that doesn't lend any credence whatsoever to your argument.
*Snicker*
Actually, Slumpy, I've spent the better part of the last 13 years active duty military. No worries. See? This is your opinion and I support your right to have it, even if I disagree or even dislike it.
I'm not saying you can't enjoy the game as is, you can, there's nothing wrong with that. But there is also nothing wrong with people expressing a dissatisfied opinion. Maybe you prefer a military lifestyle where your opinions are predetermined for you by a higher authority, but most of us actually do prefer critical thinking and giving critical feedback. Yes, some people can express it hotly, but, only because they are passionate about the game and want to see it succeed. They see that 'everything' they have suggested gets ignored, while they are strung a long with a trainwreck of substandard, short, temporary content. So yeah, sometimes they let their anger get the best of them and they rant and rave a little... So what? it's a forum. And everyone here is entitled to an opinion (even you, unfortunately). if you don't like what you're seeing, then do what you're best at: Shutting your eyes and ignoring the obvious.
Actually, you'd be surprised at how often opinions of individuals are wanted. I advise you to look at what a lot of military personnel are saying about 'current problems' overseas. Critical thinking in my line of work is not only welcomed, but it's actually required. As a matter of fact, I've been to several courses on analysis and critical thinking offered by major universities.
Don't judge us all by the outfit, that's all I ask. We's people, too.
for me personally, it's less about the military life itself and more the reasons its utilized by the powers that be.
i was in the canadian reserves for about fifteen minutes once, right after highschool. I thought it'd be an easy way to get a free university education... Then about a week into basic training reality sunk in, that i was a pampered 18 year old upper middle class girl with absolutely no interest in shooting guns. :biggrin:
for me personally, it's less about the military life itself and more the reasons its utilized by the powers that be.
This is true, as a matter of fact...
I think it was said best in MASH.
"War isn't Hell. Hell is Hell, and War is War. Sinners go to Hell. There's no innocent bystanders in Hell. War is chock full of 'em. Little kids, cripples, old ladies. In fact, except for some of the brass, almost everybody involved is an innocent bystander." -Hawkeye
Now, to shift on topic...
Personally, just me?
I think the game's taken a dive because of neglect. I think it's being used as a sort of 'training ground' for Cryptic North so they can move on to bigger projects. People in CO don't complain about its legit strengths, such as the character creator and freeform options. That's proof that players know a good thing when they see one. People in CO complain about its lack of content- after 4 years, we've seen nothing resembling a new zone. The new little 'content missions' are cool and all, but people want a reason to log back in and get on that level 40- they don't want to repeat the process with a new character and call it 'playing a game'. MMORPG's elsewhere offer that sort of thing. In CO, there's one direction to level. One side to pick. And there's not much to do once you've been around the game a while. People are tired of gambling for things we used to buy outright if we wanted. And none of this is a 'stupid' complaint. It's legit.
It's not the players wrecking this. You can't blame the neighborhood kids for throwing rocks at the derelict and abandoned factory no one is taking care of. If anything, this community is one of the -best- I've seen as far as having faith and pushing the game to reach its potential. And when you sit down and look at it- CO could have very well been the BEST superhero MMO and it could still be moving forward, had proper focus been placed on it. Instead, it's been tossed aside for Star Trek and Neverwhatever.
That means it's less a 'toxic' community and more an adrenaline shot in a dying corpse.
I used to be a traffic cop and that has no relevance to anything CO related but if you lot dont calm down your all getting tickets for the over use of NO U!
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I've seen lots of comments about the negative atmosphere of the forum users 'round here ...
I'd just like to remind folks that Cryptic's management (and, to a lesser degree, the devs) played a significant role in creating this atmosphere.
They've shown themselves to be tin-eared when it comes to patches (the release-era XP smoothing that increased levelling time and matched, almost precisely, the content with the XP required to reach 40). The sub-par QC with the Kitchen Sink patch and the nuking of Lemuria (for a game that just barely had enough content for levelling to 40, removal of one of the game's zones for a couple weeks was a major blunder). The post-release announcement that all future content would be gated behind micro-transactions (I'd argue that content is basically a bug fix required to fix the linear levelling path). The promise to communicate with the players followed by weeks of silence. Moving Tumerboy, one of the few devs' in this game's existence with any sort of presence on the forum, to STO without telling us.
On top of all this, Cryptic sold LT subs so they ended up being stuck with players like me who remember all this garbage.
Cryptic ended up with the community it deserves. FWIW, I could make an argument this community is far, far better than Cryptic deserves.
Edit: something else to add. The devs have had an interesting habit of removing powers from the game. I mean, gone, nuked out of existence. A few times I've come back to the game only to find my single toon past L10 is missing powers and requires a full respect. It would've been nice if the game had some kind of in-game notification of this happening since it's rather an impediment to simply jumping in and trying something new if you have to work out a new build for half an hour first.
Meanwhile STO got a full blown expansion with hours of new playable content and a new faction to boot. Oh, and apparently it'll be getting more new stuff complete with a whole new friggin' zone around the end of this year.
CO's latest offerings are pathetic.
Well that's an entirely different argument right there.
Yeah. I will readily admit that we've seen SOME content, some of it actually quite involved -- On Alert and Vehicles aren't chump change!
The problem primarily is that most people aren't happy about the direction of development.
That's true. I personally would like the direction to move away from vehicles. And plenty of other stuff. But I do appreciate that we're not in a limbo like we were over half a year ago, with nothing happening.
I think the game's taken a dive because of neglect. I think it's being used as a sort of 'training ground' for Cryptic North so they can move on to bigger projects. People in CO don't complain about its legit strengths, such as the character creator and freeform options. That's proof that players know a good thing when they see one. People in CO complain about its lack of content- after 4 years, we've seen nothing resembling a new zone. The new little 'content missions' are cool and all, but people want a reason to log back in and get on that level 40- they don't want to repeat the process with a new character and call it 'playing a game'. MMORPG's elsewhere offer that sort of thing. In CO, there's one direction to level. One side to pick. And there's not much to do once you've been around the game a while. People are tired of gambling for things we used to buy outright if we wanted. And none of this is a 'stupid' complaint. It's legit.
Exactly. We've got a whole bunch of shiny new stuff, but precious little of it is what we'd call forward progress. Cryptic would tell us it's as much fun to be doing donuts in the parking lot as it is to be flying down the highway, but we know which one gets us nowhere.
The core problem is that Perfect World and Cryptic, at a management level, are willing to accept a lower standard for CO's development and community support than STO and NW, while the community rejects that lower standard.
I want to make clear that this is no reflection on the people who are dedicated to CO. LordGar, TrailTurtle, Gentleman Crush, and the Cryptic North team are doing their damnedest to keep us as happy as they can under management-defined constraints that nobody else at Cryptic has to deal with.
To be honest, we can't know for sure if CO's lowered standards are being set by Jack Emmert or by his superiors at Perfect World. We can guess at Jack's motives from his history with the studio, but PWE is an inscrutable black box that only seems to convert cash into lockboxes and Zen.
This state of affairs, surviving from event to event with no plan or goal in sight, is demoralizing to our community. And Cryptic/PWE management either doesn't know, doesn't care, or doesn't want to tell us the truth because it might somehow be worse than the silence.
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
, or doesn't want to tell us the truth because it might somehow be worse than the silence.
The worse case is the game shuts. No biggie. When that happens play something else. The money I spent on this game I would have spent on rum so its most likely extended my life :P
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
So, came over from CoX after 8+ years of daily play and have fallen in love with CO hands down. Character creator is amazing, freeform ability is industry-unique, etc.
Do I think the playerbase is toxic? Not at all. I do tire of doing alerts over and over again, and now with 5 level 40s, what keeps me going is creating additional alts, but that will grow old soon.
Foxy mentioned the phoenix project and there are two others (valiance online, heroes& villains) that do talk of having a foundry-like capability along with possibly base editors like we had in CoX.
What IS frustrating is that my goodness, the untapped capabilities in CO are enormous, can you imagine the players who would flock here due to not only being able to create the most unique characters ever (saw a toon the other day that looked like a germ with huge teeth, amazing!), but also to create content that could expand on the CO lore?
But I know from the conversations that the Foundry is a dead issue, will never happen and I've given up hope that it will.
I think if I can afford it, that once the competitor games come, I'll have no choice but to start playing them as I want a game that's devoted to new content (not just the short events that add nothing to the overall evolving lore of a game), and allowing the fan base to make its own content (Cryptic even had a video expounding the benefits of it for NW and STO but I guess CO is a stepchild and not included).
But even with that, I know I'll never be able to get freeform in the other games (and power armor ability for concurrent power execution) so I'll continue to play CO till its dead for those capabilities, too bad i couldn't make it my exclusive game since it by far, is years ahead of its time in terms of capability and function.
Cryptic and PWE deserves all the attitude we have to offer. There have been too many times where they ask our opinions and we give it (and point out bugs and flaws) and get ignored.
as for Trailturtle, I don't understand why people feel the need to defend him. I never see anyone take shots at him. People love him, myself included. All I ever see is people, myself included, getting angry at the INFORMATION given.
Even here in this thread, no one has attacked him.
The enemy is PWE and Cryptic. They know it, and I think that is why they never talk to us. Because it is futile and will only be a one way conversation, them telling us something, then them muting us and talking to themselves.
Comments
Sort of like how if you were married, you'd found your wife looking at new places to live, had seen a card for a divorce attorney, and the marriage was becoming stagnant- you'd want to wait to start making the changes she's asked for instead of showing a gradual progression working to a goal?
Yeah, we've really alienated them. There have been so many of us that shunned them from the start. After all, they came in here to these forums and made an announcement directly to their player base. Since January they've been in direct communication with us fairly consistently, and we've seen something akin to a plan for where Champions Online is going next.
Oh, wait, no. The playerbase isn't acting like a bunch of mindless fanboys that seem to think Cryptic is their daddy.
Not only must you be new here, you must be new, PERIOD. Go play another game, seriously- and watch how their community and communication are and then come back here and you'll see that what this is?
A multitude of players have been flat-out ignored. By this, I mean game-breaking problems players pointed out from the start that made it to the live server.
Problems players have been pointing out since release, and for a good long time- this is year 4 and they're JUST NOW working on bugs that other games would've squashed within a month.
The NUMBER ONE problem people complain about in this game- the Chat Ban thing? No one ever wanted this thing. No one wants it now. We've been begging for it to be fixed since it showed its face. Well, it is STILL THERE. Not listening to your playerbase in an MMORPG means you're not making a game people will enjoy, you're making your pet project and don't care about the players.
The one thing most of the game's players have been begging for has been blatantly ignored. I asked for a costume set- ANY costume set to be released in the C-Store, and made it clear I would drop $300 a month in Zen every month toward CO if they'd release one by July. LOLNOPE. Couldn't even do that.
I want you to research 'Maintenance Mode' and tell me who alienated who here.
Trailturtle does good, though.
The need some seem to feel to duel in the middle of RenCen has irked me for some time. I dislike needing to disable all name displays just so I can go to the Tailor or the Bank without my display going slideshow - which is the net effect when there's a crowd in RenCen, two dueling and the rest watching the duel. Why aren't you people using the provided facilities?
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I think the main problem with this is that they need to DO something while watching, so they use that time watching in rencen to troll in zonechat....in the powerhouse they're just cut off from their lifeline lol.
The lag they produce irks me a bit as well. Saphire and her damn cake seems a godsend when considering this.
"Do you know what power is? Power is control of men who are lesser than you."
So you must have been playing for month.
Our 'Toxic Playerbase', isn't what you think it is. As a matter of fact, do you know what's bad for a game? Let's discuss this.
People being critical of a product and providing feedback on how said product could be improved and therfore made more enjoyable, and wanting to see the products capability expanded. When the product falls short these people offer criticism and suggestions.
OR...
People who tell the other customers to shut up, tell the business to ignore the customers, and gladly nod and take anything they're shoveled from said company.
I'll take the former, and if you want you can call it a 'toxic' playerbase. Personally, if these few players destroy the game- well, then you didn't have a solid game and you probably shouldn't be making them if you can't handle criticism. Good riddance, Darwin knocks at your door.
Anyone who has done anything else in their life other than lay around and breed children knows also that communication and laying out a plan for people who have invested in your product is crucial. While no 'definite' announcement is understandable- at least some sort of statement in regards to this would be not only acceptable, but highly advisable at this time (as Trailturtle has done). The 'Premature Announcement' would be no more a Death Knell than the silence, but like I said- it takes doing more in life than breeding to understand this concept.
As a matter of fact, after reading this, I'm going to ask you to also stop breeding. Everything from the first line was drivel. Please also never make any business decisions, and for the LVOE OF GOD don't join the military.
That playerbase that's complaining? That's the one making the investment. And if you make above minimum wage, you understand that those customers are what makes you money. Ignoring them is folly.
You criticize them for complaining. Well, since all you know is breeding- a basic biological function of even the most base creature on this planet- let me explain it to you with kids: You are sitting and telling me how wonderful and easy it is to be a parent, that I don't have a reason to be tired and stressed, just because you've been holding one of my kids in your lap for fifteen minutes while he's asleep.
No one is acting like they're our Butler Troupe. No one, at all. As a matter of fact- when you give us a voice, we'll use it. When you ask for feedback, we give it. When we're not satisfied- we voice it.
So before you attack this playerbase that knows much, much more about this game than you do- go and finish your content. We'll see you next month.
The provided facilities do not meet the needs of the dueling community. The problems with the design were pointed out during the concept and testing phases of their development but they were pushed ahead despite the fact that the arenas, as designed, are actually less useful, or not useful at all, to the intended users, than the open world.
Would people be using the CC stage area if it was designed to prevent participants from seeing the contestants' costumes ?
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
It's all in the delivery, my friend. Constructive criticism and ranting and raving is, and always will be, a difference from day to night. It's not about telling the business to ignore the customers, it's about knowing how and when to affectively make your opinion known. The toxicity level in the playerbase has most certainly increased, but if you cannot tell that you are beating a dead horse on certain subjects, then what you need to do is either say adieu, or have a damn seat.
Trailturtle has said " No foundry at this time" plentiful times, Cyber. Yet there are those that still believe that after every new announcement, that they must take the time to write lengthy posts about how a foundry would benefit the game ( which I happen to believe is true, especially where Sg's are concerned and the strengthening of events in sg's etcetera). And as to the other little comment, assumptions are tools for fools, don't let your sexism override your ability to handle yourself in a conversation.
I grew up in the military, and have lost family due to the military, so take your condescending crap and swallow it, it has no business here. I also later worked with the military, and the game is still the same only the players have become more uneducated and brainwashable. How ad hominum you are, well heres some ad hominum right back at you: Obviously one of the basic biological functions malfunctioned somehwere, judging from the sexism dripping from your response.
Must be hard being so delusional as to who is and who isn't allowed to have an opinion. "no one at all" Oh please go jump in a river. You obviously aren't old enough to understand the difference about blatant *itching and voicing an opinion. Just because you decide to voice one, doesn't make it valid if the tone you are using is beneath rationality.
"Do you know what power is? Power is control of men who are lesser than you."
it's not an ad hominem if he actually addressed your post and you just didn't like what he had to say, by the by. Ad hominem "attacks" are when somebody attacks the character of the debater, rather than the content of their argument. If he argues your view and then calls you stupid, then it's not an ad hominem, it's just rude.
I also didn't see any sexism, although i can only assume you're referring to "laying around breeding children" - and last I checked, it still takes two people of the opposite sex to make them. In fact, the only thing sexist here is your assumption that he was referring to either gender specifically.
He didn't by the way, must be that military education, what with excellent reading comprehension skills that you have been displaying. Lord knows they're known for coopting all the geniuses in your country and not poverty stricken ignorant children barely out of highschool completely unaware that being in the military means little more than supporting a corrupt and horrible military industrial complex, that you are apparently so proud of. So let's not play the military card, mkay? It's a trite, irrelevant fact that doesn't lend any credence whatsoever to your argument.
Trailturtle, as much as we all love him, in the end, is nothing more than a mouthpiece for his corporate overseerers. TT is awesome and I truly believe he does everything he can for this community, even when it is a thankless job. But to sit there and say this game has been treated fairly at all is disingenuous in the extreme. What is TT going to do? Crush all our hopes and dreams and have a significant number of people on this forum walk away from the game? of course not.
I'm not saying you can't enjoy the game as is, you can, there's nothing wrong with that. But there is also nothing wrong with people expressing a dissatisfied opinion. Maybe you prefer a military lifestyle where your opinions are predetermined for you by a higher authority, but most of us actually do prefer critical thinking and giving critical feedback. Yes, some people can express it hotly, but, only because they are passionate about the game and want to see it succeed. They see that 'everything' they have suggested gets ignored, while they are strung a long with a trainwreck of substandard, short, temporary content. So yeah, sometimes they let their anger get the best of them and they rant and rave a little... So what? it's a forum. And everyone here is entitled to an opinion (even you, unfortunately). if you don't like what you're seeing, then do what you're best at: Shutting your eyes and ignoring the obvious.
This is a game about absurd heroes in silly outfits. Relax.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
And do tell me, what is 'whining'? After all, you stated yourself that 'All you hear' is 'why don't we have this' and 'why not that'. In my personal opinion, that's not 'ranting and raving'. Let's face it this way, your opinion seems to be 'I'm tired of hearing people say what they want'. Sure. Some people can be rude, but if a bad attitude or disgruntled player is 'toxic' to this game, then by all means the game didn't have a leg to stand on and was weak. I have a very difficult time believing that all the 'stupid whiney self-entitled brats' are just flocking to CO and destroying it. As I've seen, the players have kept this game afloat and helped it far more when they are acknowledged.
1- I'm cool with waiting for a foundry. I'm pretty much the type to 'wait and get it right' rather than someone cobble something together and throw it at me. I want to see one. And to be fair? I don't know a lot about the Foundry system, but you know? People have every right to say why they want it. If you don't like it, I think you should take your own advice and say adios and have a seat. Your 'being tired of hearing it' doesn't invalidate what anyone else wants.
2- It takes 2 to breed, both genders, so 'sexism' is just a poor attempt to cry 'foul' because you don't like what I have to say. I know plenty of cases where that's all that both genders have proven themselves capable of. Swing and a miss.
Again, there's no sexism, but nice try. If you believe that only one gender is responsible for breeding and bears that entirely, I believe that in itself is sexism.
Now, as far as 'condescending', I believe you started that way and I'm willing to play nice with you. But take your own advice a second time and swallow it. I'm willing to pour you a glass of 'reality' to help with that thick lil' pill if you want. Face it- this game lacks, Read ANY review of it. It's not the community being 'toxic'. After all, it's kind of a moot point to poison a man dying of starvation.
Since you know enough about the military, allow me to make an example you can understand:
"Kettle, this is Pot. Kettle, this is Pot, how copy?"
"Roger, Pot. This is Kettle Actual. Send your traffic."
"YOU'RE BLACK."
You're defending your own opinion but labeling anything that complains as 'toxic'. Anyone who 'wants more' is 'whining'. Anyone who states why they want a foundry is 'tiresome'. So who has tried to halt opinion, who's defending the rights of those opinions?
And I'd rather jump in a lake, the rivers tend to have garbage in them around here. But the sandbars are nice. When you get done swallowing your own condescending attitude, and polish of that cold glass of reality, I've got a cooler of beer at this lake and you're welcome to join me for one.
*Snicker*
Actually, Slumpy, I've spent the better part of the last 13 years active duty military. No worries. See? This is your opinion and I support your right to have it, even if I disagree or even dislike it.
Actually, you'd be surprised at how often opinions of individuals are wanted. I advise you to look at what a lot of military personnel are saying about 'current problems' overseas. Critical thinking in my line of work is not only welcomed, but it's actually required. As a matter of fact, I've been to several courses on analysis and critical thinking offered by major universities.
Don't judge us all by the outfit, that's all I ask. We's people, too.
i was in the canadian reserves for about fifteen minutes once, right after highschool. I thought it'd be an easy way to get a free university education... Then about a week into basic training reality sunk in, that i was a pampered 18 year old upper middle class girl with absolutely no interest in shooting guns. :biggrin:
This is true, as a matter of fact...
I think it was said best in MASH.
"War isn't Hell. Hell is Hell, and War is War. Sinners go to Hell. There's no innocent bystanders in Hell. War is chock full of 'em. Little kids, cripples, old ladies. In fact, except for some of the brass, almost everybody involved is an innocent bystander." -Hawkeye
Now, to shift on topic...
Personally, just me?
I think the game's taken a dive because of neglect. I think it's being used as a sort of 'training ground' for Cryptic North so they can move on to bigger projects. People in CO don't complain about its legit strengths, such as the character creator and freeform options. That's proof that players know a good thing when they see one. People in CO complain about its lack of content- after 4 years, we've seen nothing resembling a new zone. The new little 'content missions' are cool and all, but people want a reason to log back in and get on that level 40- they don't want to repeat the process with a new character and call it 'playing a game'. MMORPG's elsewhere offer that sort of thing. In CO, there's one direction to level. One side to pick. And there's not much to do once you've been around the game a while. People are tired of gambling for things we used to buy outright if we wanted. And none of this is a 'stupid' complaint. It's legit.
It's not the players wrecking this. You can't blame the neighborhood kids for throwing rocks at the derelict and abandoned factory no one is taking care of. If anything, this community is one of the -best- I've seen as far as having faith and pushing the game to reach its potential. And when you sit down and look at it- CO could have very well been the BEST superhero MMO and it could still be moving forward, had proper focus been placed on it. Instead, it's been tossed aside for Star Trek and Neverwhatever.
That means it's less a 'toxic' community and more an adrenaline shot in a dying corpse.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I'd just like to remind folks that Cryptic's management (and, to a lesser degree, the devs) played a significant role in creating this atmosphere.
They've shown themselves to be tin-eared when it comes to patches (the release-era XP smoothing that increased levelling time and matched, almost precisely, the content with the XP required to reach 40). The sub-par QC with the Kitchen Sink patch and the nuking of Lemuria (for a game that just barely had enough content for levelling to 40, removal of one of the game's zones for a couple weeks was a major blunder). The post-release announcement that all future content would be gated behind micro-transactions (I'd argue that content is basically a bug fix required to fix the linear levelling path). The promise to communicate with the players followed by weeks of silence. Moving Tumerboy, one of the few devs' in this game's existence with any sort of presence on the forum, to STO without telling us.
On top of all this, Cryptic sold LT subs so they ended up being stuck with players like me who remember all this garbage.
Cryptic ended up with the community it deserves. FWIW, I could make an argument this community is far, far better than Cryptic deserves.
Edit: something else to add. The devs have had an interesting habit of removing powers from the game. I mean, gone, nuked out of existence. A few times I've come back to the game only to find my single toon past L10 is missing powers and requires a full respect. It would've been nice if the game had some kind of in-game notification of this happening since it's rather an impediment to simply jumping in and trying something new if you have to work out a new build for half an hour first.
Speak for yourself I'm so happeh I sh@t rainbows.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Well that's an entirely different argument right there.
The problem primarily is that most people aren't happy about the direction of development.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
That's true. I personally would like the direction to move away from vehicles. And plenty of other stuff. But I do appreciate that we're not in a limbo like we were over half a year ago, with nothing happening.
Exactly. We've got a whole bunch of shiny new stuff, but precious little of it is what we'd call forward progress. Cryptic would tell us it's as much fun to be doing donuts in the parking lot as it is to be flying down the highway, but we know which one gets us nowhere.
The core problem is that Perfect World and Cryptic, at a management level, are willing to accept a lower standard for CO's development and community support than STO and NW, while the community rejects that lower standard.
I want to make clear that this is no reflection on the people who are dedicated to CO. LordGar, TrailTurtle, Gentleman Crush, and the Cryptic North team are doing their damnedest to keep us as happy as they can under management-defined constraints that nobody else at Cryptic has to deal with.
To be honest, we can't know for sure if CO's lowered standards are being set by Jack Emmert or by his superiors at Perfect World. We can guess at Jack's motives from his history with the studio, but PWE is an inscrutable black box that only seems to convert cash into lockboxes and Zen.
This state of affairs, surviving from event to event with no plan or goal in sight, is demoralizing to our community. And Cryptic/PWE management either doesn't know, doesn't care, or doesn't want to tell us the truth because it might somehow be worse than the silence.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
The worse case is the game shuts. No biggie. When that happens play something else. The money I spent on this game I would have spent on rum so its most likely extended my life :P
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Do I think the playerbase is toxic? Not at all. I do tire of doing alerts over and over again, and now with 5 level 40s, what keeps me going is creating additional alts, but that will grow old soon.
Foxy mentioned the phoenix project and there are two others (valiance online, heroes& villains) that do talk of having a foundry-like capability along with possibly base editors like we had in CoX.
What IS frustrating is that my goodness, the untapped capabilities in CO are enormous, can you imagine the players who would flock here due to not only being able to create the most unique characters ever (saw a toon the other day that looked like a germ with huge teeth, amazing!), but also to create content that could expand on the CO lore?
But I know from the conversations that the Foundry is a dead issue, will never happen and I've given up hope that it will.
I think if I can afford it, that once the competitor games come, I'll have no choice but to start playing them as I want a game that's devoted to new content (not just the short events that add nothing to the overall evolving lore of a game), and allowing the fan base to make its own content (Cryptic even had a video expounding the benefits of it for NW and STO but I guess CO is a stepchild and not included).
But even with that, I know I'll never be able to get freeform in the other games (and power armor ability for concurrent power execution) so I'll continue to play CO till its dead for those capabilities, too bad i couldn't make it my exclusive game since it by far, is years ahead of its time in terms of capability and function.
Best business plan ever!
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
as for Trailturtle, I don't understand why people feel the need to defend him. I never see anyone take shots at him. People love him, myself included. All I ever see is people, myself included, getting angry at the INFORMATION given.
Even here in this thread, no one has attacked him.
The enemy is PWE and Cryptic. They know it, and I think that is why they never talk to us. Because it is futile and will only be a one way conversation, them telling us something, then them muting us and talking to themselves.