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does Villain size matter?

gandalesgandales Posts: 340 Arc User
Other considerations aside, one thing I really like about the harbinger event is the harbinger humongous size. One thing that usually stop CO from feeling epic is that the bosses tends to be in most ocassions either normal size or just a bit bigger.

While I know that camera issues can be bothersome, I think the immersion is better and it feels like an epic battle.
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  • wimpazoidwimpazoid Posts: 456 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    The downside is I can't really get a feel for my melee when attacking the harbinger. Sometimes I would get edged out slightly and my attacks become out of range. Even when I lunge in, it still looks like I'm swinging at air with my sword.

    On my range with 50ft attacks, it feels like I'm attacking in melee range.

    Perhaps some resizing of the occlusion and hit box polygons is necessary.

    If they can get it right, it will be a more immersive epic battle.
  • forutnefireforutnefire Posts: 477 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I agree. Size matters. :tongue:
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    It's not the size, it's how you stop the villain from taking over the world that counts.
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited March 2013
    Size does always make things feel more epic for me, but what detracts from that epicness is not being able to see the monstrous enemy. Harbinger needs to have a hit box big enough so that if you're melee, you can at least see his whole head when you zoom out. And if you're ranged, see the whole dude. All I see when I'm ranged is everybody else's power effects.

    I'd love to fight him with a whole group of melee and munitions and Force and whatever else doesn't bathe him in unholy light and fire just so my screen doesn't turn into a dang slideshow when I'm fighting him.
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  • somebobsomebob Posts: 980 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Size does matter. Once a mob gets too big, powers like Conflag, Lightning Storm, and Avalanche stop working properly.

    Mega-D is partially bugged with this issue (you can fly above him to where you're in range, but the powers above refuse to work and do damage), and the Harbinger is COMPLETELY borked (will not work period at all ever from any spot).
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  • canadascottcanadascott Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Well, not related to the Harbinger of Wetness, but a bit of a relevant story.

    I decided to adapt Josiah Brimstone from the PnP Champions as a nemesis for Thundrax. Josiah's basically made a faustian bargain with the demon Belial, prince of lies, and serves as his less than completely willing agent on earth. Physically, he's non-descript, relatively handsome, 6'0" tall, wears a normal suit.

    I did a reasonably accurate adaption of Josiah, only to find in alerts that he was too ordinary. He didn't make any visual impact. There was nothing about him that really foreshadowed his powers. So I decided to see what changes I could make that made him more visually interesting without misrepresenting the character in canon.

    First, I changed his trenchcoat to blood red. This really added a more distinctive visuak element to the character, giving him something I hoped would be iconic.

    Second, I changed the eyes to black, with a whitish pupil. Just a small touch compared to most demons, but it does hint at what he truly is.

    Finally, I increased his height to 7 feet. He needed to stand out in the crowd in alerts. So he now towers over many of the heroes he's fighting.

    The three changes I made were ones that I think turned a boring nemesis into something a little more interesting. I also changed his power set to Fire because I find that's underused in Nemmy missions, and his previous choice spammed the same annoying DoTs as the boring generic sextet. I justified the change from his canon appearance by saying it's a half-demon or transitional form. I'm pretty easy-going when it comes to that, I'm sure there are a few canon purists who might be a little put off. If I were to do him with full Cryptic resources, I'd probably make him a three stage villain: a normal looking guy with ebon sorcery for his first 1/3 health, a Fire villain for his half-demon form, and finally (when brought down to under 33% Health) he'd morph into a full demon with Claws/Darkness attacks. Obviously that's beyond the scope of the nem creator.

    But I did find that the size mattered when it came to the visual impression that was made. Brimstone's not a minor leaguer, and his appearance needed to reflect that.
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  • deviousideviousi Posts: 27 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    somebob wrote: »
    Size does matter. Once a mob gets too big, powers like Conflag, Lightning Storm, and Avalanche stop working properly.
    Pretty much this. The unclear hitbox and related disjointing becomes confusing for both melee an AoE abilities.

    Usually when I fight the Harbinger, I just pull out my vehicle to avoid both problems.
  • gamehobogamehobo Posts: 1,970 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Size Matters

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  • thatcursedwolfthatcursedwolf Posts: 484 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    The only time I get to see the full size of the Harbinger is when I'm chasing the Exocets. When I'm fighting the Harbinger all I see is midsection.
    I'd love to fight him with a whole group of melee and munitions and Force and whatever else doesn't bathe him in unholy light and fire just so my screen doesn't turn into a dang slideshow when I'm fighting him.

    I try to not hate on powersets but before I messed with my quality sliders I loathed seeing a fire or electricity user as it meant my maintain attacks, which are my main attacks on the hero I send to this, were going to be a pain to start on the Harbinger.
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  • flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Cryptic needs to widen the 'Max camera distance' option, current 70"feet" isn't enough. 120 would be more usefull.
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  • gavinrunebladegavinruneblade Posts: 3,781 Arc User
    edited March 2013

    Finally, I increased his height to 7 feet. He needed to stand out in the crowd in alerts. So he now towers over many of the heroes he's fighting.

    ...

    But I did find that the size mattered when it came to the visual impression that was made. Brimstone's not a minor leaguer, and his appearance needed to reflect that.

    What's funny to me is that at 5'10 (supposedly national average) my character is noticeably short even near normal civilians.

    But I've seen the same effect on my nemesis who was a clone. I ended up giving him a bit more height because he was just too short compared to the heroes and even his minions.

    Didn't go to 7' but still, it really matters for some visuals.
  • kenpojujitsu3kenpojujitsu3 Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    wimpazoid wrote: »
    The downside is I can't really get a feel for my melee when attacking the harbinger. Sometimes I would get edged out slightly and my attacks become out of range. Even when I lunge in, it still looks like I'm swinging at air with my sword.

    On my range with 50ft attacks, it feels like I'm attacking in melee range.

    Perhaps some resizing of the occlusion and hit box polygons is necessary.

    If they can get it right, it will be a more immersive epic battle.

    100% agreed. Having a 50 foot range calculated from the center of mass of a target with a radius of seemingly 48 feet is a bit problematic.
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  • gandalesgandales Posts: 340 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I am glad the topic got attention. I think it shows that if Cryptic solves all the problems mentioned in this topic, huge villains could be a more often choice at the time of making content. :biggrin:
  • rokurocarisrokurocaris Posts: 1,074 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Size also matters in a negative way though.

    Bosses as huge as this (also including Mega D and Kigatilik) tend to cause massive lag simply by the size of their FXs, especially when it comes to debuff auras.
    Just applying Clinging Flames and Negative Ions to the Harbinger is enough to turn the fight into a dia show. :frown:
  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I haven't tried fighting Harbinger yet to see this for myself but...

    Maybe try playing around with the values for /camdist command. I would suggest 60 to start off.

    I used it for fights with Mega Destroid and it was a huge help when I was using melee and on the ground.
  • falchoinfalchoin Posts: 383 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    jennymachx wrote: »
    I haven't tried fighting Harbinger yet to see this for myself but...

    Maybe try playing around with the values for /camdist command. I would suggest 60 to start off.

    I used it for fights with Mega Destroid and it was a huge help when I was using melee and on the ground.

    For Harby I use /camdist 200. I can see what's going on around me and it keeps my video card fans from needing to spin up like crazy.

    I did have to bind it to a key since for whatever reason the camera likes to zoom back in at random times.
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