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Why a Foundry?
jonsills
Posts: 6,317 Arc User
The question has recently been asked - why exactly do we want a Foundry here? After all, it has been pointed out, the Foundry in STO is low in rewards - why would anyone want to play our Foundry adventures in CO?
In my view, there haven't been a lot of complaints about missions not giving adequate rewards (well, except Grab Alerts, but then, high Resource rewards is part of their raison d'etre, no?). What many have been complaining about is a lack of content - that dressing up in our fancy costumes is fun, sure, but then what is there to do?
I believe that the implementation of a Foundry in CO would lead to an explosion of new, player-authored content. Sure, it would doubtless invoke Sturgeon's Law ("90% of everything is crap"), but oh, that other 10%!
It is my belief that people would play these adventures not because they want to have Resources falling on them like rain (it's not that hard to get rich through normal gameplay), but because it's something new to do. Over time, some adventures would prove more popular than others; when that happens, Cryptic can always incorporate them into the main game, perhaps throwing a token payment at the writer (I'd be happy to create adventures in exchange for Zen...).
Discussion?
In my view, there haven't been a lot of complaints about missions not giving adequate rewards (well, except Grab Alerts, but then, high Resource rewards is part of their raison d'etre, no?). What many have been complaining about is a lack of content - that dressing up in our fancy costumes is fun, sure, but then what is there to do?
I believe that the implementation of a Foundry in CO would lead to an explosion of new, player-authored content. Sure, it would doubtless invoke Sturgeon's Law ("90% of everything is crap"), but oh, that other 10%!
It is my belief that people would play these adventures not because they want to have Resources falling on them like rain (it's not that hard to get rich through normal gameplay), but because it's something new to do. Over time, some adventures would prove more popular than others; when that happens, Cryptic can always incorporate them into the main game, perhaps throwing a token payment at the writer (I'd be happy to create adventures in exchange for Zen...).
Discussion?
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- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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1) If you can't find the 10% that is good, it might as well be 100% crap.
2) There are a lot of people who are NOT currently playing the best content in the game because the greatest rewards are offered elsewhere. If it is desired that the Foundry be considered a content infusion then it would need to provide all of what official content generally does. This includes experience as well as other forms of reward.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
It can't just be about playing new content for the sake of playing something new, and not just because it has a feature unique compared to most other content either.
With all that said, and I know I am far from alone when it comes to those who long ago learned the game and found their ideal hero concept and completed it. I could spend countless hours making content just for myself, the fact others could potentially play it and enjoy it even a fraction of what I would seems to me a win for all.
As for the hating on quick missions designed mainly to get objectives and not fight. well I know alot who RP as non coms who favor stealth and cunning, hacker types and such who would love strings of story driven content where fighting was completely optional. I know nuts right? not really when it comes to the super hero genre.
Even if 90% are crap who cares. give every account 1 slot free and charge for the rest. hell make it only gold get one free, and silver have to pay for all slots they want. it matters not to me, but the MORE we get at this point is the main thing I see as a real NEED for CO to expand and hopefully prosper on the eve of its older brothers demise.
This video is about 25 minutes long. But I implore that you watch it for the sake of knowing what a lot of people are asking for. Or perhaps don't realize what they're asking for, saying that in the most positively awesome way possible :cool: . I'm surprised this hasn't been floating around more, or perhaps it has and I'm just not paying attention. I can only say that all of MY own concerns were put to rest after watching it.
The video speaks mostly for itself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pn7iU4EwTc
The lead producer of Neverwinter has said that you could level from start to cap doing NOTHING but User Generated Content and still have good gear.
The fact that there would be a rating system of the UGC would be a good 'filter' for what is good 'content' and what isn't just crap.
If CO gets its version of The Foundry and rewards questionite in this manner then yes, by all means I'm very alright with the idea of having it in.
Can we assume for a moment that not everyone who might potentially use The Foundry is a maxed-out level 40 with all purple gear and lots of globals? If you're not an altaholic and are happy sticking to a single hero that's fine, but The Foundry should be able to accomodate a wide range of players out there regardless of level or gear, especially those who are still progressing and can get something rewarding other than the appeal of playing custom mission arcs.
My only real gripe with the concept of the Foundry (aside from minimal rewards, which at least could theoretically be changed) is that the Foundry is a watered down version of UGC. Whenever people speak of the Foundry they talk like this will turn into NWN1 and we will get whole freaking worlds of viable content left and right. We won't, because the Foundry isn't the Aurora Toolset or anything like it and there are clearly defined limits on what you can do with it.
With Aurora people could span whole Persistent Worlds and host them in their own servers with their own rules--even modify the living crap out of the D&D rules, add new races, classes etc. They could build their own tile sets and costume pieces for crying out loud and could set up ANY rewards they want--even make up their own gear and stuff. THAT was "real" UGC. I even played PW servers with open world PvP back in my NWN1 days. I saw stuff that will NEVER be done with a Foundry (EVER!).
But like I said, STILL better than the likely 10% crap/90% NO content that we're currently (and likely ever) getting.
For me I have two answers:
1/ Any new playable content is better than none even when 90% of it is bad.
2/ When I table top gamed I always preferred to be a GM so the idea of creating my own missions truly appeals to me and would probably keep me playing the game for a hell of a long time. I would even spend more money on the game.
[SIGPIC]http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd175/Fifer71/mandrakesigmark3.jpg[/SIGPIC]
But it would be quite possibly the biggest lifeline you could give to a bunch of highly motivated gamers using this game who WANT TO BE CREATIVE.
You've already given us so many tools for Role-playing
- Massive character customization on par (or even better in some respects) than even City of Heroes.
- Enough space to write good biographies for our characters. And those bios can even use limited HTML mark-up! (It's unfortunate that this is so poorly documented though. Most people don't know about it!)
- A Nemesis system where we can create enemies and even organizations to fight!
All we need to put all of this together in such a way as to allow for a full experience is a way to write our own missions.
Rewards are nearly irrelevant I think - normal gameplay levels characters so quickly as to make any rewards from the system other than a flat questionite reward meaningless. Just do it like the Daily 3 missions for questionite system already in place in STO and it should be good to go.
PLEASE.
Just GIVE US THE TOOLS TO BE CREATIVE.
I disagree. I care nothing about questonite personally, and I believe that the primary reason we even need the Foundry so desperately is the lack of viable, alternate leveling paths. I wouldn't play Foundry missions just for questionite. I am not login to play Alerts just for questionite right now. Why would Foundry missions be any different?
A game that encourages alting so much NEEDS viable, alternate leveling content. That is why this game feels so stagnant to many of the people that have been here for years. We have to level every character doing the same crap. The point of having a Foundry is not HAVING to do Alerts or just the same old content to level. Every. Single. Toon.
Otherwise the addition of the Foundry will be (for many players, I believe) largely meaningless.
And do what? 'They' haven't done anything yet.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
You could be making a whole new game, you could be making real money.
But you aren't.
If you can't make real money and original content now or for the past seven years,
with the tools just sitting on the internet begging to be used, whats going to change
when an incomplete, buggy, and half supported Foundry shows up?
By the way I was digging around in Champions command line stuff, and
then googled some commands, which lead me to another MMO which is
basically all foundry. You can build anything you want, they say.
I tried a few things, they were awful.
Build your own missions isn't pulling hundred thousand players a day into STO.
Lets hear from the horses mouth: this is fresh today from STO forums
That sure paints a glowing illustration of the success and popularity of the Foundry where it debuted.
Here's a whole thread about why the Foundry isn't a winning feature in STO.
So you are saying that you don't want to take a shot at new content, and just stay with the old ones (but hey! enjoy your sky carrier mission with no healers until the next major patch)
If i can customise my own character storylines, i'm cool with that(bugs aside). I am NOT cool with repeating something i've repeated since may 2010. So i will take a shot at that.
CO is one of the most creative MMORPGS that i have played, and, even if it is on "life support" atm, the players WILL generate some content.
About "****ty" content: if you make content half-heartedly, it WILL be ****ty(but i don't think that dedicated RPers and PvPers alike will create non-challenging, boring content)
To sum up content>no content
Icanhascontent?
@the_banished_one
Just a simple Sig
Why is it so hard to make it interesting?
Want to play a robot struggling to make its way in a human world? Have a mission label set to [Robot]. Then you'll be addressed appropriately throughout your career, you'll have mission chains that allow you to play the role you wanted to define without having to go through generic content.
Want to play a villain? A mystic? An alien who's crash landed on earth. Cryptic doesn't have the resources to all do these, but the Foundry could make them possible.
Missions which are more than "kill 15" but where we get actual choices to make and consequences to our choices?
You want to go through your career without seeing a lame pop culture reference? Find a creator that you trust not to include them, and support them.
How many complaints have we seen that the average Champions Online/ MMO mission is boring? They're boring when they're filler, when there's no context. A Foundry system gives us a chance to play missions by talented people who care and who are willing to go beyond a basic mission structure.
There will be a lot of dross (and it will be the community's job to find good missions and support them, and keep a wary eye for missions whose ratings have been inflated). This isn't a panacea for everything wrong with the game, but lack of content is the game's major problem and -- judging by what the NWN editor can do -- this will be a huge step in the ring direction.
No the players are the game's major problem.
Its not lack of content that makes 80% of first time players leave before they reach Kodiak.
Its not lack of content that makes the players who stay feel like this is a dead
game when they can't find people to team with. That is a huge issue.
Its not lack of content that killed PVP, another huge issue here.
Its not lack of content when the people sigh "Everything can be solo'd in this game" and nobody
queues for the non soloable content.
Its not lack of content when the crowds scream "Death to the lowbie in the alert!"
Its not lack of content when comes the weeping and sobbing of "Chat banned again."
Its not lack of content that makes the RP community swarm into Caprice like flies to unfresh
things instead of utilizing the vast open world and hundreds of instances all around them.
Foundry solves none of these 'major problems' with the game.
How/Why? Cuz we designed the game the way it is? Cuz we're supposed to play the game and like it no matter what even if we have no reason to be here?
If people actually leave before Kodiak there is nothing we can do about them. If they do, its likely because they simply don't like the game and fighting tooth and nail to retain them would be pointless.
PS: Also, 80% of statistics are made up on the spot.
According to YOU...
...and teaming is a separate issue.
Yeah, a huge OTHER issue that has nothing to do with this topic, which appeals only to a small demographic (as opposed to general content, which even PvP'ers may play) and which I have no hope that will ever be resolved on this game given its history with PvP and the lack of dev interest on addressing PvP issues.
When people sigh "Everything can be solo'd in this game" they're talking about wanting to play the actual, regular content with a team, and having actual team based mechanics in the game. Not about playing crappy, forced minor teaming queued content that amount to a single tank and spank fight in a single room, with no real objectives other than tank and spank (i.e. Alerts).
A very minor, separate issue that's not a reason for people to stop playing the game (unlike lack of content).
A whole separate issue that has nothing to do with the lack of content and wouldn't bring back the people that have left due to lack of content anyways.
I can't speak for the RP community since I don't RP in this game and haven't really RP'ed in years. But if I DID still RP, I wouldn't touch Caprice unless I wanted to meet up with people before moving on to some place else or there was actually something interesting going on in there at the time.
No one claimed that it would and none of those things you pointed out (several of which I don't agree are even "major" problems) prove that lack of content isn't an issue (only that YOU personally don't care about it). The only "major problem" in this game that has ever been claimed that the Foundry could solve--the only thing that's even RELEVANT to what a Foundry is (a tool for creating content)--is lack of content.
BINGO. There is no lack of content.
Just lack of the player's imagination and attention span to use the content they have.
The devs know this.
When they look over what needs looking over they see all the instances, missions, items, powers, etc, and its already a lot of content and their spreadsheets and graphs show them whats getting used, and they know the whole "not enough content" crowd is a bunch of lazy liars who don't use the content they have.
The posibilities are endless, all you have to do is widen your mind, set it to in a another level. And you're in your way intoa gaiming nirvana.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
/signed
I used to use Hero Games as an alternate leveling path. I used to use Canada as an alternate leveling path. Now, we have West Side and Alerts (Hero Games being essentially dead).
Foundry missions, even if simple, could be available for lots of levels, even low level.
Better still, one could create a series of linked Foundry missions to make a story arc.
I played NWN and NWN2 for its entire run. I became a dev for a persistent world, and then a DM. I know that CO won't have that level of customization. But even the small amount of creativity that the Foundry allows will be just what our game needs. Similar to NWN, the CO community is full of creative types with some technical know-how, probably even more so than in STO. Let us show it.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
pointless to debate it before its confirmed.
finding the good stuff wont be an issue, i'm sure we will have lists on the forums anyway.
.
Very, very few people used it for actual mission content...and everyone else who used it, used it for PLing.
When all was said and done...CoH wasted a whole issue on the thing.
CO already has alerts for PLing.
I would much rather CO spend time and resources on actual in-game mission content then on this.
VARIANT
"Nearly all men can withstand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
-Abraham Lincoln-
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
I rather see working Foundry, with xp/drop rewards, to give the capable community to create mission content that last little longer than a week long "event".
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
Okay - Fair enough. I was approaching this more from the standpoint of someone who has several 30+ level characters and still enjoys enough of the current content to do it when I want to level. But that I'd like something for my top-end characters to do other than what's there. (UNITY, Nemesis stuff, re-doing Comic Series etc.)
Also - in terms of history, in City of Heroes, the Architect, while providing a lot of good tools for storytelling, was also abused as a high speed leveling farm. Which was not the intent.
But yes - you have a valid point. For some people, there will need to be incentive other than pure storytelling to run Foundry missions.
Also - someone else brought up a point that dovetails with yours. Champions, unlike City of Heroes or DCUO, has no way to play VILLAINS currently. If you wanted to play a villain in Champions, the foundry might be an excellent way to do so! Spend all your time in there and level up via missions that are tagged as having villain morality.
So while it will be fun for the vets with a stable of leveled characters with nothing more to do. It will be close to useless to anyone else wanting to get characters to that point
You cant consider it new content if you are still required to use old content just to get to the point it benefits you. its usefullness as a means to tell your charcters own personal journey is limited if that journey still has to require same old path we have all traveled a hundred times
Funny, I thought the mission architect revitalized the game and had a thriving MA story arc community. I enjoyed it immensely and never had problems finding real story missions (I refused to play "farm" missions).
The fact that a lot of players abused the system and others just didn't care for it does not make it a failure or waste of time. Many of us enjoyed it as it was intended to be used. It kept me in the game when I wasn't sure whether to stick with CoH or not. CO was not a viable alternative for me at the time. If CoH were still going, I wouldn't have returned to CO.
I do enjoy CO, but it is lacking in comparison (from my perspective; opinions will vary). Adding the Foundry would be a terrific enhancement to CO for me and my family/friends. I might even be able to convince a few more to join.
That's why somebody else earlier in this thread pointed out the Neverwinter dev noting that leveling through user content there will be viable. We're hoping that concept and toolset will be migrated here (and STO).
Prediction: if this comes to pass, users will create missions that are on the order of Alerts. These will be farmed, longer missions will be under-utilized. It really is all about the carrot for many players.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
LOL
sorry had to get that out of the way before I could stop laughing enough to answer coherently.
THere is very much indeed a lack of content in CO. Since its first month passed a common term applied to it by we who have actually experienced the game from beginning to end on multiple characters has been Fun FOR A MONTH. A great on and off again MMO at its best days for all but the most addicted die hard fans of the game.
Its why the game is also often called stagnant by those who have actually been around here since the game launched.
Sadly you have to always compare this game to cryptics previous creation City Of Heroes, its inevitable and the same thing always comes up, pound for time, year for year, CO has grown at a snails pace and suffer from the 3 steps forward 4 steps back saying at the same time. We have not seen any truly significant expansion of the game world and in an MMO one of the main draws is exploration. When you have seen all of MC, Canada, the desert, MI, and swam in the depths of the ocean you have pretty much seen it all as far as CO areas go. Viborea bay still has some stigma attached to it because we who where here remembered it was originally going to be a pay for update to the game within its first months, while most players especially lifers felt frustration and the sense of being nickel and dimed.
THis was before we went hybrid model mind you.
I could roll up a new character right this minute, and work through every bit of content, still take less then a month, possibly enver even suffer a single death, all because its that easy to meta game the content once you know it. All the so called challenge mechanics are only challenging to the first timers. Meanwhile if CoH wasnt about to be wrongly shut down, I could make a new character and play through content I have never done, because the game is that deep in content, that varied. When CO was still young it was something we could argue over. CO is no longer a babe fresh in its crib, in the MMO world its now a full grown adult, but its not its more like a adult who suffered from extreme mental disability and is only a child in thought if not in body.
The foundry should be abit more ironed out now then when it first came to STO. word is its the central hub of the games design and by now probably fairly polished.
New content, especially for lifers and returning vets is the only thing that could really keep them feeling like the game is big enough to stay around.
Meanwhile during COHs first few years we saw the game literally double in size,
Funny... I did all the missions of the game, every single one of them in my first month, leveling without using alerts. I was lvl 40 in the middle of Monster Island, and was yet to go to Lemuria and Vibora Bay Apocalypse.
I spent 2 years on CoH and, not only counting the fact that they kept adding missions and TF on every issue, but even then there are still missions I have never done, and now sadly will never ever do. Just the amount of content of the game was enormous, and they kept adding at it, with new areas (Just after going free to play we got First Ward, a zone area that was free for VIP players and premiums and free could buy, getting access to really good stories, Revamped Dark Astoria, with one of the best storyline in the game, only for Incarnates, and then Night Ward). 3 new areas... in less thana year of being Free to Play.
Add tot hat the content created by the AE. Sure, many of those were farm missions, and there were humorous ones fighting catgirls... and then there were really great stories, some considered by the dev team to be even better than theirs.
I mean, its not like I don't know what star trek is, but I'm not familiar with what makes star trek star trek, or what any of it means so I'd never be able to write a good enough story or come up with anything because to me, all I see is, "Men in funny outfits with different heads flying through space talking about things and going beep beep boop on remotes"
I'm just not familiar with it. Even in game I spend a majority of my time doing just that, flying through space, talking in all chat, and going into my ship to check out the beep beep boops.
If we were talking about maybe star wars, or an apocolypse, or good vs evil, <----I can get into those and write for days, because I'm familiar with those basic concepts enough to know whats interesting.
I am kinda surprised the system never hit CO first. I mean, its a game that taps into the most basic story line to ever be told over the campfire to mankind. Its just good VS evil. Pretty basic yeah, but the amount of stories you can come up with just from this idea alone is limitless. Sure you can do the same thing in Star Trek, and make a series devoted to good and evil, but, how was I supposed to know that Klingons don't usually inhabit ice climates? I didn't even know what those colors on their uniforms meant until I played the game lol. The thing about the champions world is there are no pre-set rules and standards, its super powers, nothing has to make sense, and the majority of people in the world either know what a super hero is, or have a version of their own marvel super heroes or batman. Familiarity, thats all it is.
CO is not just a MMO but a community. UGC is another way to enable players to interact with one-another. This is important because the bonds between players plays just as much of a role in keeping players in a MMO as the content it provides.
The most obvious example what social bonds can do for a MMO is the WOW community. Wow is not the best MMO on the market but it is successful and resilient because has the most robust community "every one plays wow, because every one plays wow". I even witnessed wow spread like a virus among the management and IT division at my job. Wow was a vehicle for work friends to hang out together. Wow ended up being chosen because it was the most social, not because it was the "best" mmo.
IGN sighted UGC as one of the "Ten Trends That Are Saving Video-games" see minecraft or the skyrim mod community for examples.
Foundry would inevitably allow SG basses as well. SGs are small social groups within the game. With SG bases and foundry these groups will be able to form alliances (Story arcs made by SG leaders) and rivalrys (base raiding foundry pvp maps) that can revolve around UGC. These kinds of relationships help MMOs retain players so cryptic can have a audience for the z-store.
A. Cryptic most successful MMO at the moment (STO) has foundry and its next big project (NWO) is focused on foundry.
B. Foundry will make it easier to add one of the most requested features, SG bases.
C. Foundry can be made to support one of the other features that players like the most (the nemesis system).
D. UGC supports and reinforces all online social communities.
Main point:
Cryptic should start viewing their games as social networks and consider nurturing them with that in mind.
UGC is a key feature in in all social networking businesses worth mentioning.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
That would actually be pretty damn cool. "In order to join our super group, you must complete this UGC mission arc based around the super group." Then you have appearances made by certain members of the super group throughout the story. Man, I could only imagine the shenanagins a Red Academy mission would entail.
Claims versus expectations. They could have a single daily mission that provides xp and that claim would be true. What they promise and what we expect often end up vastly different
Call me jaded or a realist. But ill believe it when i see it. Especially when we have a working example of "fails to measure up" (sto). I really dont need to play what if
Something along the lines of arresting all the crazies that reside there. Aka everyone.
Unless of course power leveling encourages players to buy more characters, more inventory space, costume slots, Zen devices and whatnot. The only reason that a player time sink would actually hurt the company's bottom line, since its a time sink that doesn't involve a player spending money to advance.
So make Foundry customization installments payable.
1) To see user created content which incidently was one of the original selling points of Champions Online, which never really came to fruition.
2) To make my own creations and finally give some light to villain groups which more or less get left in the dark later on in the game.
3) To get an influx of new content rather than wait for Cryptic to make it, which to be fair, doesn't seem to happen a whole of a lot lately.
|Champions Online Stuff ->| Roster | Copycat Heroes | Moments ||
I enjoy new content but that content has to be worthwhile in terms of rewards.
Yes, I enjoy carrots.
Also, I'm a raging altoholic and want something, anything, that doesn't force me to be just in time... to be TOO LATE! on every single new character (I refuse to do smash alerts at 6, so I have to hear Poe's voice every... single... time.).
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
If the foundry is going to be advertised as allowing players to create their very own missions, then it's expected that people should be allowed to do exactly that, regardless of a player's personal opinion whether or not that there should be a level of quality storytelling involved. Unless Cryptic creates a set of rules that requires player acknowledgement regarding usage of the foundry, players should be able to use the foundry however they damn please.
I don't want to see the same thing happening regarding CoX's Mission Architect, where people were being blasted for not creating mission arcs based on story and for XP effeciency instead. The head developer at the time had the gall to threaten such players with bans and character deletions, when no one at Paragon Studios had the sense to list out a set of rules regarding usage. Broadcast chat in Atlas Park (which is equivalent to zone chat in MC) also became a frequent flame fest between players because of this.
"Learning the Ropes" was an awesome MA arc that replaced the default 2-5 experience. One shots or story arcs, there was always something different to do if I got tired of the official routes.
With CoH feeling the executioner's axe in a little over a day the Foundry could help pull more refugees in and keep them here.
I've done most missions (one chain bugged), a few lairs, in about a month, and hit level 40. And there's really almost nothing different in any enemy group.
In CoH, I have multiple 50s, have done different storyline content on each main character, and still haven't done more than a third of it. And then the AE arcs that I played, created, helped others create...
The reason I haven't done other characters and powers in CO is because there's nothing in the game for me to do except what I've already done, and there's apparently no prospect for me to get anything in the game...except what I've already done.
I don't know how you know that I'm a lazy liar, would YOU like to explain how you know I'm a lazy liar?
Ah, the exploits we shall see!
Wait? Whaaaa..?
This is biggest load of nonsense I've read on a gaming forum in a long time. And I was a regular on the COH forums, so that's saying something.
Others in this thread have already shown you don't know what you're talking about so I'll leave it at that.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
But on a serious note: Why? This game attracts many creative individuals who want to make their own idea of a hero. The costume creator is a place you can get lost in for hours. The Foundry lets them make their idea of a superpowered adventure. Imagine that, your own hero, in your own story. Doesn't that evoke excitement? Isn't that a logical evolution in a game like this?