Not really, cause Quarry gives a lower overall buff than the others as compensation.
And there you go. Quarry saved. As if I had any say in the matter. I really want to say that "Blocking" caused all this mess to begin with, but I really love block it's a nice change, it gives defenders something useful to do other than other than managing toggles and balancing spreadsheets.
Back on the topic threading from your quote. That's kinda why I'd be more a fan of just having swords, "work" better against the debuff/buff that Targeting Computer produces rather than change the Slotted Passive cause new powers were introduced that fall out of it's norm. It's one of those, it wasn't an issue till the "new" thing came along.
It's a melee power and realistically doesn't need targeting system to make more effective.
Targeting is essential (melee or otherwise) for digital entitys to interact with the outside world. Targeting reticules make up how computers perceive the world. When you look at the software running on the experimental cars that drive them selves, robots, facial recognition software or military drones you see the computer uses various boxes and reticules to categorize whats in its environment or what it sees. Any digital thing that perceives the real world MUST use targeting as it is basically inherent in digital perception. Otherwise what you have is just a camera.
A good example would be terminator. When Terminators are fighting in melee and the camera shows the Terminators view it is still shows targeting reconciles around the target. If the target pulls out a gun, a smaller reticule appears on the gun and raises the threat level.
Beyond that, all of this goes back to the subjectivity of theme.
In game however, I see the issue of playing a hybrid PA build and having the only Slotted Passive that could benefit you offensively only benefit half of the set.
True. Basicaly all laser sword focused melee PA builds are going to end up hybrids because there are not enough powers to make a build entirely our of laser swords. For example i have concussion beams and energy wave on my build.
Also, being unable to pick TC on a melee focused PA build means that you will not be able to unlock higher tiers as fast.
Maybe instead of having Targeting Computer buff Laser Swords, Have Laser Sword's advantages or inherent attributes utilize Targeting Computer. i.e. If Locked On, Laser Sword critical strikes better?
Doing this through advantages seems like a convoluted solution to a simple problem.
Is there a reason other than your subjective view of the thematics of TC in melee that TC should not buff tech melee? I cant imagine any balance issues that would come with it.
The only arguments i have seen against this have been thematic and not pragmatic.
Doing this through advantages seems like a convoluted solution to a simple problem.
Is there a reason other than your subjective view of the thematics of TC in melee that TC should not buff tech melee? I cant imagine any balance issues that would come with it.
The only arguments i have seen against this have been thematic and not pragmatic.
Its not MY subjective view of thematics. The powers were design to translate a "theme" using game mechanics. Otherwise paint-by-numbers for all I care.
It would have been better for you to respond to the post as a whole than break it up. It seems you lost any of my attempts to look at all sides of the situation due to your adamant stance that you are conveying that "No one is listening"
You are asking to "break open" something that actually works prior to adding more blades cause a ton of "new" blade powers were introduced without first considering of conforming the "new" blades to the targeting computer mechanics that have been here since the beginning.
Why would I want to go all "pragmatic" on dynamic systems? Pragmatic is just "Make you happy regardless of the consequences of doing so"
On the subject of "Quarry" vs. "Targeting Computer" passives in PA
With the "framework passes", It's soon coming to the point where EVERY framework is going to need a second passive :rolleyes:
Why not just get it done now
Some Framework TABS "share" passives, or powers.
Why not just do this to the tech. tree and call it a day? :cool:
They should just have all offensive passive boost all damage, period. They could distinguish each passive by their graphics and secondary effects. Examples:
Electric Form would still look the way it looks with resistance to energy damage and would still give great energy benefits for more offensive punch.
Fire Form would still look the way it looks and would have elemental resistance and the best fire resistance.
Pestilence would still look the way it looks and would deal toxic damage for free, reduce healing, and increase resistance to elemental damge
Quarry would still have the optional healing advantage, increase INT and EGO, and give bonus defense
Targeting Computer would still 'Lock On' increasing critical damage and providing resistance
Ego Form would reduce the cost of Mental powers and give damage resistance to mostly Ego damage.
And so on. I do not see the balance reasons for making some passives (like Targeting Computer) affect only a few different attacks while other passives (Like Quarry) affect every power in the game. That's not based on game balance. That's the '5 monkeys in the room' part of human nature. (see http://balancedworklife.com/career-management/5-monkeys-experiment/)
On the subject of "Quarry" vs. "Targeting Computer" passives in PA
With the "framework passes", It's soon coming to the point where EVERY framework is going to need a second passive :rolleyes:
Why not just get it done now
Some Framework TABS "share" passives, or powers.
Why not just do this to the tech. tree and call it a day? :cool:
Frankly, getting rid of frameworks and making power picks universally open, transparent, and functional would get rid of all the "my set deserves more than your set" talk and get people to focus on what the game is supposed to be: Building the character you(we) want.
Frankly, getting rid of frameworks and making power picks universally open, transparent, and functional would get rid of all the "my set deserves more than your set" talk and get people to focus on what the game is supposed to be: Building the character you(we) want.
I disagree with those who argue that their set deserves more than anyone else's set too, but just eliminating frameworks would not achieve your stated objective so long as powers matching some concepts are weaker than those, of the same tier, matching others.
I Apologize for breaking your post up again but i want to address each statement because im trying to understand what your saying. Readers can reference your original post for clarity.
Its not MY subjective view of thematics. The powers were design to translate a "theme" using game mechanics. Otherwise paint-by-numbers for all I care.
It sounds like you are saying that targeting computer is not thematic for melee and if that was not the case you would not care if TC buffed melee. Am i understanding this correctly?
It would have been better for you to respond to the post as a whole than break it up. It seems you lost any of my attempts to look at all sides of the situation due to your adamant stance that you are conveying that "No one is listening"
Its easier for me to show how i interpret each statement this way. You seem to be misunderstanding my stance because i is not that "no one is listening". Its true that im assuming that the devs are no longer reading my post about this subject because all the information is already out there. I'm not here to push my agenda so much as to share my opinion and gain understanding. In other words im here to talk to YOU and not put on a show for the devs. I honestly don't want any thing that's bad for the game and i don't want to be unreasonable. The reason that i am here talking with you about this is not to shout you down but to understand why TC buffing laser blades is a bad idea.
You are asking to "break open" something that actually works prior to adding more blades cause a ton of "new" blade powers were introduced without first considering of conforming the "new" blades to the targeting computer mechanics that have been here since the beginning.
I don't think i understand what you are saying here. I'm going to try to rephrase. correct me if im wrong.
Are you saying that TC was fine before laser blades and should not be changed because laser blades were introduced. And that because of this, the new powers should conform to the existing powers instead of the other way around? If that is correct i would go farther and assume that by laser blades conforming to targeting computer, you are referring to that advantage suggestion posted above?
If im understanding all this correctly, i would ask how this would be practical for a laser blade build?
there are three laser blade powers and all of them would have to be advantaged to work with targeting computer. That would eat up a lot of advantage points and make it impossible to use the powers at rank 3. This would also make it difficult if not impossible to get crippling challenge/ nailed to the ground. Considering that melee PA would mostly be a hybrid build, laser swords would have to suck advantage points out of other ranged PA attacks or even Targeting Computer it self. This would be a huge burden on the build and is not a standard way for powers within a framework to interact with their native passive. How would players respond if ego blades had to interact with ego form through advantages instead of being buffed directly to its passive?
Why would I want to go all "pragmatic" on dynamic systems? Pragmatic is just "Make you happy regardless of the consequences of doing so"
Who says practical ideas cant be dynamic?
I'm not taking any "consequences" into consideration because no one has stated them. Feel free to list the negative consequences of this change and i will gladly take it into consideration. You go on to call this a dynamic system. Dynamic implys constant change. I want change (TC). If im understanding you correctly, you don't want TC to change.
I conclude by asking that you clear up any misunderstandings i may have with your stance and also state clearly the negative "consequences" of targeting computer buffing laser blades.
I disagree with those who argue that their set deserves more than anyone else's set too, but just eliminating frameworks would not achieve your stated objective so long as powers matching some concepts are weaker than those, of the same tier, matching others.
That's why I said universally open, transparent, and functional. But right.
I Apologize for breaking your post up again but i want to address each statement because im trying to understand what your saying. Readers can reference your original post for clarity.
It sounds like you are saying that targeting computer is not thematic for melee and if that was not the case you would not care if TC buffed melee. Am i understanding this correctly?
Uh kinda, Yes I would not care if it buffed melee if it wasn't built around any theme in its original inception. My paint-by-numbers comment is geared more towards the idea of just making everything "skins" with virtually the same functionality just for balance sake.
Its easier for me to show how i interpret each statement this way. You seem to be misunderstanding my stance because i is not that "no one is listening". Its true that im assuming that the devs are no longer reading my post about this subject because all the information is already out there. I'm not here to push my agenda so much as to share my opinion and gain understanding. In other words im here to talk to YOU and not put on a show for the devs. I honestly don't want any thing that's bad for the game and i don't want to be unreasonable. The reason that i am here talking with you about this is not to shout you down but to understand why TC buffing laser blades is a bad idea.
I can understand that. My approach is that it's very risky in general to overhaul something that wasn't "broken" until Laser Blades were expanded the way they were. So I'd like to explore all possible options to assimilate the new blades into working with the existing framework cause they are new. Before resorting to just overhauling Targeting Computer and make it essentially a Quarry clone.
I don't think i understand what you are saying here. I'm going to try to rephrase. correct me if im wrong.
Are you saying that TC was fine before laser blades and should not be changed because laser blades were introduced. And that because of this, the new powers should conform to the existing powers instead of the other way around? If that is correct i would go farther and assume that by laser blades conforming to targeting computer, you are referring to that advantage suggestion posted above?
Not that it should "not" be changed. Just explore all other options before making said change. It's just a basic "good" design/engineering practice to do so. I was saying TC is only considered broken because something "new" was added. Yes, its is a correct assumption regarding to the advantage suggestion, as long as it's taken as "see if this works first before changing the old power"
For example, Laser Sword wasn't considered a combo power before, though with the additional powers and the player base disapproval of it NOT being a combo power (which makes sense for it to be so on the surface level) now I hear that the power is capable of doing an order of magnitude more damage than any other combo in game.
Now I have to test this out myself, but these are the kind of things I'd like development to avoid in general.
If im understanding all this correctly, i would ask how this would be practical for a laser blade build?
there are three laser blade powers and all of them would have to be advantaged to work with targeting computer. That would eat up a lot of advantage points and make it impossible to use the powers at rank 3. This would also make it difficult if not impossible to get crippling challenge/ nailed to the ground. Considering that melee PA would mostly be a hybrid build, laser swords would have to suck advantage points out of other ranged PA attacks or even Targeting Computer it self. This would be a huge burden on the build and is not a standard way for powers within a framework to interact with their native passive. How would players respond if ego blades had to interact with ego form through advantages instead of being buffed directly to its passive?
It's not impossible, Invulnerability is an option, it's actually a PA passive. Now when I said advantage, I noticed that it keeps getting skipped over in that I also said, "or inherent mechanic built into the power" that means how Infernal Blast has "poison" or swords have "bleed" or Ego Blades use Ego Leech. They don't take up advantage points, it's already built into the power at default. I did actually provide two suggestions there.
I do want to add that Orbital Cannon could be held under the same situation in that it really should work with Targeting Computer in some way both thematically and mechanically, but it's not considered a "ranged" attack so it doesn't work. I still wouldn't immediately break open Targeting Computer to fix it, but I would apply that same idea to Orbital Cannon in that it be made to more effective when used against enemies that are Locked On.
Who says practical ideas cant be dynamic?
I'm not taking any "consequences" into consideration because no one has stated them. Feel free to list the negative consequences of this change and i will gladly take it into consideration. You go on to call this a dynamic system. Dynamic implys constant change. I want change (TC). If im understanding you correctly, you don't want TC to change.
I conclude by asking that you clear up any misunderstandings i may have with your stance and also state clearly the negative "consequences" of targeting computer buffing laser blades.
The main reason is that making this change impulsively would lead to every other offensive passive changed in the same fashion for the same reasoning, it sets bad precedence. This would lead to everything just being a power "skin", which is fine. I think Marvel Super Hero Squad Online is mostly built that way and all the characters are essentially just different costumes/FX.
So generally I follow the axiom is that for every bug found, 2 were missed. for every bug fixed, 2 were introduced. The same goes for change in that for every issue present 2 things weren't evaluated as relevant factors, so when a change is made, 2 new problems would always be introduced as a result of that change.
So taking that into consideration, I have no problem with change, provided that we look at all aspect in which that change would influence and weigh the pros and cons and we consider all possible solutions in that same manner. The only exceptions being time-sensitive situations in which this is not as these powers have no effect on the Invincible AT which is the product that was released.
So the second phrase I go by in regards to it is, "If it aint broke, don't fix it" and in this case, it isn't Targeting Computer that's necessary broken. It just not doing anything with powers that have been introduced after it was made. So at makes me first inclined to think "Swords are broke, over Targeting Computer" and that's a save assumption. Cause in truth all the Laser Swords are pretty raw in its original inception, there basically sword skins right now with nothing mechanically different than any other sword. So I see more benefit in buffing the swords than changing the passive at this time.
Frankly, getting rid of frameworks and making power picks universally open, transparent, and functional would get rid of all the "my set deserves more than your set" talk and get people to focus on what the game is supposed to be: Building the character you(we) want.
Ok, i understand where your coming from now.
It seems that we have different views about how TC and laser swords should interact but at least we seem to agree that they should interact on in some way.
Ok, i understand where your coming from now.
It seems that we have different views about how TC and laser swords should interact but at least we seem to agree that they should interact on in some way.
Comments
And there you go. Quarry saved. As if I had any say in the matter.
Back on the topic threading from your quote. That's kinda why I'd be more a fan of just having swords, "work" better against the debuff/buff that Targeting Computer produces rather than change the Slotted Passive cause new powers were introduced that fall out of it's norm. It's one of those, it wasn't an issue till the "new" thing came along.
A good example would be terminator. When Terminators are fighting in melee and the camera shows the Terminators view it is still shows targeting reconciles around the target. If the target pulls out a gun, a smaller reticule appears on the gun and raises the threat level.
Beyond that, all of this goes back to the subjectivity of theme. True. Basicaly all laser sword focused melee PA builds are going to end up hybrids because there are not enough powers to make a build entirely our of laser swords. For example i have concussion beams and energy wave on my build.
Also, being unable to pick TC on a melee focused PA build means that you will not be able to unlock higher tiers as fast. Doing this through advantages seems like a convoluted solution to a simple problem.
Is there a reason other than your subjective view of the thematics of TC in melee that TC should not buff tech melee? I cant imagine any balance issues that would come with it.
The only arguments i have seen against this have been thematic and not pragmatic.
Its not MY subjective view of thematics. The powers were design to translate a "theme" using game mechanics. Otherwise paint-by-numbers for all I care.
It would have been better for you to respond to the post as a whole than break it up. It seems you lost any of my attempts to look at all sides of the situation due to your adamant stance that you are conveying that "No one is listening"
You are asking to "break open" something that actually works prior to adding more blades cause a ton of "new" blade powers were introduced without first considering of conforming the "new" blades to the targeting computer mechanics that have been here since the beginning.
Why would I want to go all "pragmatic" on dynamic systems? Pragmatic is just "Make you happy regardless of the consequences of doing so"
With the "framework passes", It's soon coming to the point where EVERY framework is going to need a second passive :rolleyes:
Why not just get it done now
Some Framework TABS "share" passives, or powers.
Why not just do this to the tech. tree and call it a day? :cool:
They should just have all offensive passive boost all damage, period. They could distinguish each passive by their graphics and secondary effects. Examples:
- Electric Form would still look the way it looks with resistance to energy damage and would still give great energy benefits for more offensive punch.
- Fire Form would still look the way it looks and would have elemental resistance and the best fire resistance.
- Pestilence would still look the way it looks and would deal toxic damage for free, reduce healing, and increase resistance to elemental damge
- Quarry would still have the optional healing advantage, increase INT and EGO, and give bonus defense
- Targeting Computer would still 'Lock On' increasing critical damage and providing resistance
- Ego Form would reduce the cost of Mental powers and give damage resistance to mostly Ego damage.
And so on. I do not see the balance reasons for making some passives (like Targeting Computer) affect only a few different attacks while other passives (Like Quarry) affect every power in the game. That's not based on game balance. That's the '5 monkeys in the room' part of human nature. (see http://balancedworklife.com/career-management/5-monkeys-experiment/)Frankly, getting rid of frameworks and making power picks universally open, transparent, and functional would get rid of all the "my set deserves more than your set" talk and get people to focus on what the game is supposed to be: Building the character you(we) want.
I disagree with those who argue that their set deserves more than anyone else's set too, but just eliminating frameworks would not achieve your stated objective so long as powers matching some concepts are weaker than those, of the same tier, matching others.
It sounds like you are saying that targeting computer is not thematic for melee and if that was not the case you would not care if TC buffed melee. Am i understanding this correctly?
Its easier for me to show how i interpret each statement this way. You seem to be misunderstanding my stance because i is not that "no one is listening". Its true that im assuming that the devs are no longer reading my post about this subject because all the information is already out there. I'm not here to push my agenda so much as to share my opinion and gain understanding. In other words im here to talk to YOU and not put on a show for the devs. I honestly don't want any thing that's bad for the game and i don't want to be unreasonable. The reason that i am here talking with you about this is not to shout you down but to understand why TC buffing laser blades is a bad idea.
I don't think i understand what you are saying here. I'm going to try to rephrase. correct me if im wrong.
Are you saying that TC was fine before laser blades and should not be changed because laser blades were introduced. And that because of this, the new powers should conform to the existing powers instead of the other way around? If that is correct i would go farther and assume that by laser blades conforming to targeting computer, you are referring to that advantage suggestion posted above?
If im understanding all this correctly, i would ask how this would be practical for a laser blade build?
there are three laser blade powers and all of them would have to be advantaged to work with targeting computer. That would eat up a lot of advantage points and make it impossible to use the powers at rank 3. This would also make it difficult if not impossible to get crippling challenge/ nailed to the ground. Considering that melee PA would mostly be a hybrid build, laser swords would have to suck advantage points out of other ranged PA attacks or even Targeting Computer it self. This would be a huge burden on the build and is not a standard way for powers within a framework to interact with their native passive. How would players respond if ego blades had to interact with ego form through advantages instead of being buffed directly to its passive?
Who says practical ideas cant be dynamic?
I'm not taking any "consequences" into consideration because no one has stated them. Feel free to list the negative consequences of this change and i will gladly take it into consideration. You go on to call this a dynamic system. Dynamic implys constant change. I want change (TC). If im understanding you correctly, you don't want TC to change.
I conclude by asking that you clear up any misunderstandings i may have with your stance and also state clearly the negative "consequences" of targeting computer buffing laser blades.
That's why I said universally open, transparent, and functional. But right.
No worries. It's understandable.
Uh kinda, Yes I would not care if it buffed melee if it wasn't built around any theme in its original inception. My paint-by-numbers comment is geared more towards the idea of just making everything "skins" with virtually the same functionality just for balance sake.
I can understand that. My approach is that it's very risky in general to overhaul something that wasn't "broken" until Laser Blades were expanded the way they were. So I'd like to explore all possible options to assimilate the new blades into working with the existing framework cause they are new. Before resorting to just overhauling Targeting Computer and make it essentially a Quarry clone.
Not that it should "not" be changed. Just explore all other options before making said change. It's just a basic "good" design/engineering practice to do so. I was saying TC is only considered broken because something "new" was added. Yes, its is a correct assumption regarding to the advantage suggestion, as long as it's taken as "see if this works first before changing the old power"
For example, Laser Sword wasn't considered a combo power before, though with the additional powers and the player base disapproval of it NOT being a combo power (which makes sense for it to be so on the surface level) now I hear that the power is capable of doing an order of magnitude more damage than any other combo in game.
Now I have to test this out myself, but these are the kind of things I'd like development to avoid in general.
It's not impossible, Invulnerability is an option, it's actually a PA passive. Now when I said advantage, I noticed that it keeps getting skipped over in that I also said, "or inherent mechanic built into the power" that means how Infernal Blast has "poison" or swords have "bleed" or Ego Blades use Ego Leech. They don't take up advantage points, it's already built into the power at default. I did actually provide two suggestions there.
I do want to add that Orbital Cannon could be held under the same situation in that it really should work with Targeting Computer in some way both thematically and mechanically, but it's not considered a "ranged" attack so it doesn't work. I still wouldn't immediately break open Targeting Computer to fix it, but I would apply that same idea to Orbital Cannon in that it be made to more effective when used against enemies that are Locked On.
The main reason is that making this change impulsively would lead to every other offensive passive changed in the same fashion for the same reasoning, it sets bad precedence. This would lead to everything just being a power "skin", which is fine. I think Marvel Super Hero Squad Online is mostly built that way and all the characters are essentially just different costumes/FX.
So generally I follow the axiom is that for every bug found, 2 were missed. for every bug fixed, 2 were introduced. The same goes for change in that for every issue present 2 things weren't evaluated as relevant factors, so when a change is made, 2 new problems would always be introduced as a result of that change.
So taking that into consideration, I have no problem with change, provided that we look at all aspect in which that change would influence and weigh the pros and cons and we consider all possible solutions in that same manner. The only exceptions being time-sensitive situations in which this is not as these powers have no effect on the Invincible AT which is the product that was released.
So the second phrase I go by in regards to it is, "If it aint broke, don't fix it" and in this case, it isn't Targeting Computer that's necessary broken. It just not doing anything with powers that have been introduced after it was made. So at makes me first inclined to think "Swords are broke, over Targeting Computer" and that's a save assumption. Cause in truth all the Laser Swords are pretty raw in its original inception, there basically sword skins right now with nothing mechanically different than any other sword. So I see more benefit in buffing the swords than changing the passive at this time.
/agree
/signed
*points to link in sig "I, Have A Dream"
It seems that we have different views about how TC and laser swords should interact but at least we seem to agree that they should interact on in some way.
Yup
Bug: One Hundred Hands and Emphatic Healing are not triggering Overdrive.