test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Options
The Gravitar 10-man fight thread
Archived Post
Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
In this thread, we discuss the Gravitar 10-man fight.
What we're looking for:
What we're looking for:
- Is the fight too tough/easy?
- Are her power mechanics easy to understand?
- Did you fully understand the win/fail conditions?
- Were you confused about what to do during the fight?
Post edited by Archived Post on
0
Comments
"Big" ones, 4k through the block.
Main attack, 7k through the block (48k with no block, ouch :-p)
Those values aren't that bad... but I'm using Regen...
Squishies like Infernos will die before they even know what hit them...
Issues with the Queue: seems to not reset the instance properly.
We got beat the first time, left, requeued, we respawned in a "lost" instance.
Apparently no "Leave map" button pops, we have to head back to spawn.
Win conditions: beat her ****.
Lost conditions... err it's a last (wo)man standing apparently.
Dying kicks you out of the fight bubble unless you're rezzed or use a self rez...
What to do?
Bah, the usual Zerg Rush...
Dodge the blue bubbles...
Limited number of respawns before you start getting respawned in the bubble, please.
[Combat (Self)] Gravitar deals 16701 (83894) Crushing Damage to you with Force Detonation.
[Combat (Self)] Gravitar deals 1121 (12860) Crushing Damage to you with Force Eruption.
[Combat (Self)] Gravitar deals 2073 (17338) Crushing Damage to you with Force Detonation.
[Combat (Self)] Gravitar deals 60506 (81584) Crushing Damage to you with Force Detonation.
Might wanna look at her power levels, it's a bit... big ^_^
(Note, even in defeat, there's lulz, because they are so ridiculously high)
Also, the exit spot is waaaaay too small, had to search for it for a few seconds before hugging the ambulances...
(Sorry if the format is a bit chaotic and the speech... erratic... Excitement of the new stuff ^_^)
EDIT: VERY BIG IMPORTANT POINT...
Just like any "big" fight (example Tako-fan-fest), power overlapping disables some FX...
It totally sucks when it's hers that get disabled...
How can I dodge what I can't see?
EDIT2: Also, the rewards... lol?
1 UNTIL recog and some spare change?
Not even enough to buy me a drink in the VIP lounge...
(I suspect that's not yet in place but... XD)
Seemed pretty easy to understand. Stay out of the way of the target circle. It seems like it needs a lot of cannon fodder enemies. Being able to concentrate on the 1 villain wasn't hard.
seriously.
She needs more tells to her attacks, but I like being able to actually MOVE OUT OF THE WAY of an attack. Doesn't save you against the Cascades on crack, but actually having to MOVE in a fight is something I've been wanting for a while.
Too easy after figuring it out. Her last form should be as long as half the whole battle, in my opinion.
I'd suggest making her blue sphere yellow and her yellow sphere red. I don't see much urgency in a blue cone. Hadn't I known before hand what was going on, I might have thought I -should- have been there.
Did not know you would be locked out until it happened and I clicked "Recover". I do not mind being locked out, just wish I knew about it.
Not really.
Other thoughts:
Give her a special music track if possible;
Don't allow people to approach her until 60 seconds pass or all players are in the zone (like other alerts);
Give us some fun perks! Don't leave it at "Defeated Gravitar 100 times". Do something like: did not die once versus Gravitar; whole team survived the fight; did not get caught in the blast radius of her attacks once; dealt the most damage and so on.
Do not make the rewards scoreboard dependant. Melee characters will never have as high a score as ranged characters in this alert.
I think it's great you guys are working on designing fights for 10 heroes, but I'd like to see more difficult and hopefully more interesting mechanics that really justify the need for 10 players here. It's more fun when we feel our contribution is "needed."
1) I love the 'gotta get out of the circle of doom' aspect of the fight. But those people who don't keep their TP on all the time, or don't have it R3ed, are in serious trouble. And Ranged characters can more or less stay out of it, only needing to move back a slight bit when it charges up.
2) Her 'instant single-target death attack' during the last 1/3rd of her HP bar is just nasty. Before defenses, I got hit for 80,000 damage. 12k after. Despite mitigating like 80% of the incoming damage, and have Con SSed, I got outright blown away.
3) Totally needs more HP. The fight is way too easy once you learn how she plays. Although we were all 40s with end-game gear and knew how to play. Once it's truly PUGed...I dunno. And extending the length of the last 1/3rd of her HP (when she's by far the most dangerous) could be nasty.
4) PUGs can seriously screw this fight up. A single player can get the 'blue aura of doom' attack directly on them and not realize it'll hit everyone nearby. If they don't move away out of the group, you could blast just about everyone.
Overall, I like it. Main thing is that it needs to be just a tad longer so it feels more epic. But it's a DRASTIC improvement over the usual 'tank and spank' tactics that have been used just about everywhere else in CO.
I'm not really sure what could be done flavor-wise here, considering the villain. Adds would really seem out of place lore-wise...
Maybe have her summon Gravity Bombs, similar to Ball Lightning, but the players need to destroy them before they detonate? Maybe the detonate on their own, or she detonates all of them at once, causing mass AoE over the whole map if not stopped?
Realistically? It's too easy. One shot kill mechanics you can't see aside, it's just too easy to pile on DPS and any threat that Gravitar might show just isn't enough. Her damage is little more than a Mega D against me. Her health goes down way fast, she probably needs more health or better resistance. And if you are including one shot kill mechanics, you need to make it visually easy to tell, what it is, and ways to stop it or outright avoid it. Otherwise cheap deaths that the tank can't control are not going to be fun. To put it in terms of the guild healer, he was bored because he didn't have to heal me. Her damage could probably do with a slight boost.
They are easy to understand, but there is little time for people to react to them. They need to take a little longer in their cast time to let people react a bit faster.
Quite easy. Whoever's left standing fairly simple concept. I do like that it doesn't allow for the zerg, and I think this should be left alone. But again, cheap one shots need to be fixed.
Not in the slightest.
Yeah, I think adds would be nice to make it feel like 10 players are needed. I like your idea about bombs, I'm not familiar with the lore but maybe also she could summon a power source that would heal her unless players destroy it (like Shadow Destroyer's adds).
For a fight with a villian that controls gravity you could have moments where players are grounded and others where they have flight. She could cause target areas to pop up and knock up. Maybe instead of making her the focus or adding critters, have the heroes trying to put out fires or rescue people trapped in her wake. Only when players have done enough to prove a pest does she take them on in a final battle with the above mechanics.
When I play champions with the books, I rarely use brawling head on mechanics. I treat each session like a tv show of batman, justice league, xmen, ninja turtles..etc. The villain rarely takes on the group of heroes in these shows. Instead the heroes usually spend half of the episode thwarting the villain and force the villain in to a final confrontation.
I suggest doing the same for future bosses. My two cents from one game dev to another. Otherwise you are going to need some very experienced programers to make fight memorable and interesting enough to be challenging
Also pets are largely useless since aoe damage is so massive, even spcced for pet survival they just die in two aoes (one if its a dual pet power).
Bugs:
Bound Ritual Pets are giving energy Penalty
Duplicated Attack Toys are giving Energy Penalty
Could also use the little timeout at start bubble like other alerts have so people can buff / summon. Cutscene to know why the 10 of us are jumping her couldn't hurt either especially if it has a warning about death lockouts. And obviously needs real rewards and to have the open mission score system to go away and just use the static everyone is even points or have rewards equal to all 10 people
Also I think adding fodder to before or during the fight would help alot, it feels...odd not having there be anyone else as a warm up. And personally would rather see her as an hourly event then an all the time thing.
Actually this is not quite true (at least for me). I did this as my melee character, used 0 TPs during the fight and didnt have any problems getting in and out of the circle of death.... it all boils down to pay attention to her pattern.
Not In Yet. Yes, it's a UNITY token right now. Yes, it'll be replaced before it goes Live.
Is the fight too tough/easy?
Too easy. The mechanics are no brainers and repetitive.
Please consider additional, more involved mechanics.
Things hitting harder is okay, but not a substitute for interesting mechanics.
Example: One player gets a red aura around them, while another players gets a blue aura at the same time. Those two players have x seconds to run into one another or the player with the red aura detonates.
Example 2: One player gets a gold aura. If the player with the aura does not stop using abilities, each ability cast will siphon power from their team until they stop using abilities for x seconds.
Are her power mechanics easy to understand?
All too easy.
Did you fully understand the win/fail conditions?
Yes.
Were you confused about what to do during the fight?
Nope.
She would work with others if lots of money is involved (she's greedy), but only any group who could afford to pay her to help them. She's also much less "conquer the world" and more "My cuisine reigns supreme". So actually, just picking a huge fight in the middle of MC just to see who has the huevos to try to stop her is very much in character for her.
The number of individual people who fall into that category in the CO universe you can count on one hand.
We're talking about somebody whose idea of a hostage/ransom isn't "I'll kidnap Mayor Biselle!" but "I'll use my gravity powers to lift the entire U.S. Capitol building half a mile into the air during the State of the Union address with everybody important in DC inside it, and then I'll threaten to drop it and kill everyone unless a really big number gets transferred to my Swiss bank account."
If I recall that got the attention of the Champions, Drifter, and PRIMUS, and even then it was all them versus her and ended up a draw when she got bored with the waiting and left.
As such, you guys upstairs probably want to double her HP at the minimum.
Well, the books do state that she does want to conquer the world, but as you said it's less about actually ruling as it is a desire for everyone to acknowledge her supremacy. Landing in MC to push around as many heroes as possible is perfectly in character for her. I just don't want what some people are suggesting and having henchmen/trash mobs added to the encounter, since she's very much opposed to hiring minions. This is a woman who publicly calls Dr. Destroyer a coward for 'hiding' behind legions of robots and minions.
I know Cryptic has a static environment problem, but they really need to push their skills to make these ten man fights epic. Don't just use a recycled Tutorial for the area. Make it from scratch and make it do stuff.
An idea is put her on a floating platform she brings up, during the cut scene. You have to make your way up there and fight her, through travel powers or using fallen buildings or something. She can knock you off with powers which you can either duck and cover or have to get back up there after falling off. Don't make her do insane damage to make it "more challenging". Make her be more interesting.
There was absolutely nothing to it. I was expecting a raid or an extended mission with some story. The mission is nothing but a tank & spank. COMPLETELY DISAPPOINTING. I have more fun doing the alerts.
Please, Please, Please....add more to this. I really expected something that required teamwork. Somehting that would make us want to save the world from Gravitar. Something that required people to work together but there was nothing.
WOW......You guys did such a great job with CoH stories and here it's like all your creative storytellers were out sick.
Give us some:
Story
Teamwork
Make us have to work together. Otherwise, what do we need a team for?
My thoughts at this point is let Gravitar have that lil stinking, empty block. Eventually she will get bored with it too and go home.
While some others disagree with me, I'll post my viewpoints here.
*is the fight too tough/easy*
I think the fight will be a fine challenge for those that are in premade groups, but to PUGS, it will be impossible.
Her damage output is fine to those expected of it, to PUGS though, and for people entering it without full power trays, it will be a nightmare. This definitely needs to be gated to 40 only.
*Are her power mechanics easy to understand?*
Yes, from what I gathered, keep out of any circle she puts up, or just block.
*Did you fully understand the win/fail conditions?*
Yeah, beat her.
*Were you confused about what to do during the fight?*
Simple enough to understand.
Is the fight too tough/easy?
Its just fine. Tweaking needs to be done no matter what though. My AoPM dodge didn't die against her yellow field and she only did it once. We defeated her quicker than any Alert villain.
Are her power mechanics easy to understand?
I didn't see a problem. Wish she would do something unique rather than stand there and take it. Would prefer her to move around the area until agro starts.
Did you fully understand the win/fail conditions?
It was definitely easy to understand since its just fight. The same conditions as every unoriginal fight in the game.
Were you confused about what to do during the fight?
It was odd trying to find out what to do at first since there was no cut scene, no presentation to see what we are fighting, and no reason to attack her since she wasn't doing anything but standing in the middle of piles of rubble. As far as I'm concerned, we're the villains here.
Is the fight too tough/easy?
Assuming that this Epic 10-man Alert is indeed going to be set for level 40s only( I assume this only because level 40s seem to be the only one the queue show for atm) I would have to say that this is indeed far to easy.
Her hit points would have to be doubled at least to make her feel truly powerful and her average damage attacks need a boost in damage, but the warning times need to be a touch longer.
Right now the only thing that makes this fight remotely tough is her one shotting ability which I am not a fan of in the least. I'd like to either remove this one attack or at least lower it's damage output by a lot and add a different more player friendly ability to her arsenal called "ZERO GRAVITY" that I will get into a bit later.
Are her power mechanics easy to understand?
After one play through you get a pretty good idea of what's going on. The yellow bubble of death did however catch me completely off guard.
On our first playthrough we did so much damage that we took her down in an instant. I was tanking with a Defiant/Dodge+Avoid/IDF/12k HP build with end game gear and a ton of support auras helping me out.
Her regular attacks were only tickling me throughout the fight. I had originally thought all her bubble attacks were regular AoE's and not Target Based AoE's because I was up close to her for the whole fight with agro locked. It was only near death that she was able to let go one of these yellow bubbles(that to be honest I didn't even notice because she was about to drop dead) that killed everyone around her(which was more then half the team) right at the same time she died. I had originaly thought she had a self destruct power when she dies or something:p Another play through and some friendly info from another player helped me figure out what was really going on.:D
2 play throughs and both were very successful.
Did you fully understand the win/fail conditions?
It's your typical Smash Alert set up, just without a time limit, so yes. Maybe a time limit would make this fight a bit more pressing. Make players have to gamble with doing more damage quicker or taking the time to block?
Is this suppose to be a more advanced Smash Alert?
Will there be Grab and Burst 10-Man Alert types also?
Or is this just a Epic 10-man version which incorporates all into one?
Were you confused about what to do during the fight?
Of the Mechanics, somewhat at first. I think that's to be expected at first though, your pretty much going in blind. Once you run it a few times it will become quite obvious though.
Of my how to go about my role not at all. I'm the tank so I do what a tank should do. Jump in first, get agro locked, and point her away from the rest of the team. Because our team wasn't a PUG and instead pretty well put together with experienced players with high end builds I didn't feel worried at all during the fight so didn't feel the need to have to pay very close attention. I don't even think I blocked once. Probably why the yellow bubble of death got me.
Putting the Epic in Epic 10-Man Alert!!!
As it stands this fight is far from Epic.
First thing, I suggest boosting the damage of ALL her normal attacks, but at the same time giving us a bit more time to react to them.
Secondly, that fact that she uses GRAVITY is not coming across well at all with Force Powers IMHO. I'm not saying ditch them all together, but I would very much like to see some actual gravity type abilities. Such as:
Power: 1000x Gravity/ Mega Gravity/ Sass Squashed(get it, shes' sassy and she's squashing you. To bad she's doesn't have big feet. Umm... where was I?)
*This power is a Root with Epic Level Strength. You can break out of it but it shouldn't be easy. Those with lunges can still use those to get to the target but will remain rooted because they're still being hit with gravity. This power should also do ticks of damage over time. Giving the healers and blasters something to worry about. Right now they just stand around shooting, kind of boring.
Power: Zero Gravity(This is the fun one and what will truly make this an epic fight)
*After a long charge time this power will disable everyone while Gravitar lifts the group into the sky. After the new area is set you will regain control and be able to move around as normal but flying. The fight will go on for a bit as an Epic Arial battle and then comes the drop! Now Fall damage comes into play. Fall damage by itself doesn't kill you, but it sure does hurt. Having the entire team near death instead of dead is much more interesting. You'll have seconds to recover and get back to the fight before she begins picking players off. This puts a sense of urgency into the gameplay. Support characters will have to make hard choices on who to help first, do they put the tank before there own health?
Reward Possibility
I personally would like to see this give out 3 Rank 5 Mods along with a nice amount of Resources to make it worth doing often.
Opening Cutscene
Since I'm sure it will be getting one anyway, and honestly I think it will need one just to have SOME story behind it. I'd like to suggest an opening scene with her hovering in the sky pulsing with a Gravity Aura(of course she would have to hover on down to the ground before the fight begins). Maybe holding up a building filled with important folks in it, which would be the reason for a possible time limit? I dunno, something cool.:p
In Conclusion
All in all this Alert needs a lot more work but has some fantastic potential. I hope you'll be working hard on it to make it as intense as possible! Keep up the great work!
From what I was told it appears Cryptic needs to make new hires. There is no other easy way to put this, but your company appears to lack creative/advanced mechanic programers.
Two things have become apparent to me. First, this community needs to accept that Blizzard is the only company atm able to create interesting boss fights. They maintain a high playerbase simply because their bosses, be they WoWs or Diablos, require a level of teamwork that creates friendships and guild community. Rewarding their successful teamwork with loot but also cheers. Second, Crypitic needs to make up for this lack of talent and provide faster content in the form of zones and dynamic mechanics.
If all the team can do is tank and spank fights, then make more of them but have them be more like Bloodmoon's zerg rush feel. The random spawns would need to be sporadic and plenty to avoid campers. More dynamic content in the form of "public events" like attacks on police station. Bank robberies. Muggings.Hostage rescues. More set content in the form of more villain team alerts. Most of all focus on nemesis, because players like to see their works come alive. Focus on your strengths instead of wasting time on weaknesses.
You wouldn't think Blizzard can make 'interesting' fights either to listen to their detractors. So, going off the first pass of a boss, you feel comfortable enough to say that they should just give up and do what you want them to do? The first passes of Resistance and Demonflame were a bit standard as well, and they changed them for the live release. Why don't we wait to see how they change the boss in response to feedback before we call Cryptic useless at making encounters, hmm?
I think that plus the idea above in which she raises everyone into the air would be very cool.
The first she could do pretty often, but the second maybe only just before the last 1/3 of life.
you mean like what Vikorin the Blind used to do? how original!
I think the mechanic of drawing everyone fits very thematically.
I disagree with your subtext that no mechanic should ever be reused. Especially from a boss that few in the game have likely faced.
Personally, I think it would be fun.
What do you mean use to do?
First off, glad you like the idea and thx for the support.
Secondly, she actually does have the gimmick you were talking about already. She can cast a Black Hole of Sucky Swirlyness that pulls everyone in so she can blast them with her bubbles.:p It's actually kind of funny getting swirled around her, now I know what it's like to get flushed.:p
Blizzard spends months setting up boss fights. And why should I wait for Champions to play catch up? Listen, some devs know how to program epic fights. These devs stand out. It's a blessing for these companies to have such talent. But talent can't be trained. If it could then every NBA player would be as good as Jordan. Every comic artist would be as good as Jim Lee. Every studio would be able to produce God of War.
I have nothing against Cryptic trying to make epic boss fights. I just think they could make them in a way that pertains to their strengths. Such as making the fight more like a city rescue mission. Where the have rescue scientists and save civilians to make the fight easier. Saving no one makes her invisible or near impossible for gluttons of punishment. Better rewards for helping civilians but also achievements for taking her on without saving people.
I wish I could draft out a demo scenario, but I am already paid to design games for my company, it would be unfair for me to charge them and then help Cryptic for free. Cryptic will eventually find their niche as all artist and designers do. But to make one epic boss fight for WoW it takes 3 months average. That includes drop tables, sounds, stats, art, mechanics and internal testing. And that's for a team of veterans.
So, if Cryptic is up for epic boss designs they should expect to take just as long. Because blizzard breaks teams up and does about 3 bosses at a time.
In short, your argument is hyperbole. Blizzard takes months to design things because they generally have several other things involved, and quite frankly, Blizzard's patches since Cataclysm have been less than stellar, and some would even argue before Cataclysm.
How do you go from, "Cryptic doesnt know how to design an interesting boss encounter," to, "only Blizzard knows how to design an interesting boss encounter ?"
I have to say that I'm liking the increase in the number of ground targeted attacks. This is something that should be increased because it gets people moving without resorting to knocking everybody all over the place. I liked the Mechassassin and Steelcommando event because they used these a lot.
A few mechanics from various boss fights in SWTOR that stuck with me are:
Those are just a few of the boss gimmicks that stuck with me because I remember having a lot of fun with them and they made the fights mobile and different.
Big Bang - Every 30 seconds she starts a summon animation and says something appropriate before knocking the entire party to her, snaring them and then a few seconds later doing a Force Eruption. Anybody who didn't get out of range takes damage, is knocked to the edges of the room and also trapped in a containment bubble (although without the bubble so it looks like you have lost gravity). Easy to avoid if you know what to do but keeps you on your toes. This attack is a threat dump.
Rubble Trouble - Every member of the party is targeted and nearby debris starts to float around them (Or a big old circle appears under them. Whatever) Move out of the way or get a lump of debris/forklift/car/passer-by thrown at you. Size of blasts should be such that if the group is spread out a lot then it will be harder to find space to move into that isn't going to result in some damage taken. Easiest to avoid if all the ranged players bunch up together so they can scatter when it triggers.
Accretion Disc - All Heroes closer than 50ft are repelled and all heroes further than 75ft are sucked in.
Weight of the World - Random player is targeted and starts to suck nearby players towards them. Player is held in place and the closer other players get to them the slower they move and they start taking crushing damage. There is a tipping point where players can no longer run fast enough to escape the gravity well.
That sounds really fun and funny.
1. Make movement controls clunky or movement generally slow (think of movement in Diablo or compare the run speed of a WoW character to something like Acro here)
2. Make things that kill the players depending on where they're standing (close to each other, in fire/toxic gunk/whatever)
3. Have the boss do things to disrupt their movement on top of the lousy movement controls (snares, knocks, adds that are faster than they are, disabling the main travel movements indoors/in-combat)
4. Collect your mountains of cash from people joining for your "challenging", "in-depth", "dynamic", "innovative" boss content. (This is where you do the ???? and Profit" steps, btw)
This may have been sparked by frustration at the latest Invulnerable Minions/Plagued/Arcane/Jailer/Fast Elite pack encounter in Inferno. :mad:
Something I was curious about from the FX side, would there be any plans to incorporate those spacial-temporal distortion FX that we've seen in Demonflame/Aftershock & the Distortion Travel Powers into the look of her powers?
It would be a good opportunity to really showcase the effects on perception that Gravity manipulation on that scale would have on a person. and really add "gravity" to threat Gravitar poses.
This especially works if the FX could only be done on the client side as that's kind of how it would work in real life where the person "inside" the gravity field would experience time passing differently than those "outside" of the field, since light passing through the field gets warped.
Some recent movie examples I could think of would be Sunshine.
Not this please..
I don't like fighting rooms!
A badass boss is one thing, leaping to platform A to pull switch B so that you can access C is Tomb Raider stuff.
I have a copy of Alice the Madness Returns which is unplayed now. It's not that I can't win the fights it's that I can't jump from one f****ing platform to another fast or accurately enough to get past that level.
I didn't buy it coz I thought it would be an interesting challenge - I got it for the story and I am locked out of this.
I doubt that CO is going that route and I thought that reply #43 had some very good suggestions (for a challenging game) but please no room fighting.
I'm not going to say that this fight should have it but sometime in the future. While you may not enjoy it I'm sure there is another several people who do and I see nothing wrong with throwing one or two alerts or missions with that kind of mechanic in.
Warlord has far, far less personal power than Doctor Destroyer, Mechanon, or Gravitar. He can stand up to a team of heroes alone. Doctor Destroyer fought dozens of heroes and killed several of them at the Battle of Detroit.