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  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    oddTodd wrote:
    That's a terrible analogy. .
    I'm not sure the davs would agree.
    NisDiddums wrote:
    Power Armor: Plasma Cutter: Now, when fully charged, will Cauterize (Rupture) stacks of Plasma Burn.
    So reapers embrace and plasma cutter aren't analogous even they are both single target burst damage powers that "rupture" dots?
    hmm..

    And i guess that Laser Edge and Scything Blade aren't analogous even though they're both melee cones, do compatible damage, share the same animation and both trigger dots?
    hmm...

    I guess laser sword and reapers caress are completely different even though they are both combo attacks with a chance to cause a dot.
    ......

    And your right, light speed dash is NOTHING like thunderbolt lunge even though they are both lunges that snare and root the target.

    Your right that was a terrible analogy. I don't know what i was thinking...:rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Sigma7 wrote:
    (SNIP)
    Your right that was a terrible analogy. I don't know what i was thinking...:rolleyes:

    I might be wrong, but from what I'm reading it seems you were thinking that the PA slotted toggle system shouldn't exist to begin with. Any argument you've given against how it functions, can be applied exactly the same to every slotted PA toggle - like mini gun, micro munitions, concussor beam and such. But the thing is the 'limitations' they have, are really no different than any other charge or maintain power has.

    You can think of the PA slots as a kind of 'universal power' system. You have this generic 'power armor' power that has three threads. When you activate that 'power', you can't use any other powers - which is true for any and all charge and maintain powers. This three-threaded powers acts pretty much exactly like them.

    The difference is that it's not 'set in stone' like other powres are.. but rather you can construct it from three separate pieces to fit the situation. What Rec Circuits does is, it allows you to make one of those threads a self-heal.

    If this slot system is too confusing for someone, like you suggest - and which I do understand - then they shouldn't use the power armor set. It quite likely is the most complicated set to use efficiently. In my opinion, all that is needed is a fair warning that it's 'advanced difficulty' archetype. What comes to free form building - there are good building guides all around, and anyone who is new to making freeform builds is well adviced to make use of them.
    oddTodd wrote:
    (SNIP)
    I fully support this suggestion. In fact, I believe all toggles should work that way.

    This I agree with, at least partially. From what I understand, the power system of the game engine is pretty unflexible, and doing something like this might require - at worst - updating each and every power in the game to have a property of 'turn off toggles'.

    Easier solution would probably be a /slash_command that turns off all currently active powers (including PA toggles, but perhaps excluding powers like advantaged sparkstorm). You could then bind that into a separate key, or just use it as part of keybind for power. Like f.ex. if you had unbreakable on key 4, you could use

    /bind 4 "disable_all_toggles_command $$ +powertrayexec 3"

    Or possibly

    /bind 4 "disable_all_toggles_command $$ powertrayexec 1 3"

    I don't remember how exactly the + symbol works when dealing with chained commands.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Yukitsuki wrote:
    This I agree with, at least partially. From what I understand, the power system of the game engine is pretty unflexible, and doing something like this might require - at worst - updating each and every power in the game to have a property of 'turn off toggles'.

    I don't want to sound unsympathetic, but I'm not particularly sympathetic here. The lack of extensibility we're led to believe is in the codebase is positively criminal, and any and all lead codeslinger time that's not allocated to necessary bugfixes and Things That Can Be Advertised Loudly should be focused on remedying this.

    And probably is, although they're probably working on aspects of this related to mission and world travel functionality moreso than powers at the moment.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    People specifically wanted a toggle heal and it was given.

    Yes, a toggle heal.

    If you don't plan to play a PA toggle build, then the toggle heal is wrong for you.

    I'll say that again: It is wrong for you.

    I'm getting fully, thoroughly sick and tired of people demanding that a power be changed because it doesn't fit into their build.

    Here's a clue. If it doesn't fit into your build, change your build or choose powers that do fit.


    I believe there is a story about moving mountains vice moving to the mountain yourself.

    There's some really large egos in this game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Reconstruction Circuits may also be the best self-heal in the game right now.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    People specifically wanted a toggle heal and it was given.

    Yes, a toggle heal.

    If you don't plan to play a PA toggle build, then the toggle heal is wrong for you.

    I'll say that again: It is wrong for you.

    I'm getting fully, thoroughly sick and tired of people demanding that a power be changed because it doesn't fit into their build.

    Here's a clue. If it doesn't fit into your build, change your build or choose powers that do fit.


    I believe there is a story about moving mountains vice moving to the mountain yourself.

    There's some really large egos in this game.

    Recon Circuits is totally useless for any build that uses any attacks outside of Power Armor toggles and maintains. It is also very annoying even for 100% Power Armor builds that want to use any active offenses or defenses, because they will be disabled while Recon Circuits is active. That includes Unbreakable, which is in the same power set.

    Beta testers that are pointing these issues out to the developers are doing their jobs. Recon Circuits needs some work to get out of beta or else it's going to be of extremely limited use. I'd expect players to say "What the hell were they thinking?" if they get this power as-is on Live. This is still beta, and the commentary on this power is still very warranted. There's no use calling people out for doing the right thing on the Test Server. The developers want our feedback as long as its constructive.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Yukitsuki wrote:
    I might be wrong, but from what I'm reading it seems you were thinking that the PA slotted toggle system shouldn't exist to begin with.

    Woah, your going way too far here. i NEVER said this i have a lv 21 PA build on live right now. Dont put words in my mouth. How did you get "toggles shouldn't exist" from this?
    Sigma7 wrote:

    Toggles are better suited for attacks.

    You seem to be in love with the "toggle heal" idea even at the cost of functionality.
    I like the idea of it on paper too, but the power isn't useful enough.
    I'm getting fully, thoroughly sick and tired of people demanding that a power be changed because it doesn't fit into their build.

    Here's a clue. If it doesn't fit into your build, change your build or choose powers that do fit.
    Im going to assume your talking about me here.
    It that is the case you need to chill out. There is nothing about video game forms that is worth being "sick" or "tired" over. This is the weekend no less...

    On the topic, Its not that RC doesn't fit in my build. As i said, i have a PA build on live that can use it....The problem i have is that i feel like the power is to narrowly focused. Its not that it doesn't fit my build, but that it only fits one build. Its also useless to other builds in the pa framework and technology tree.

    Also, I'm just here humbly expressing my opinion i didn't whiz in any ones breakfast. These are my opinins and you can trust that if you disagree with me i wont be "sick" or "tired"...
    Sigma7 wrote:
    I don't claim to have all the answers but this power shouldn't go live as is IMHO.
    There's some really large egos in this game.
    don't i know it:rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    oddTodd wrote:
    Reconstruction Circuits may also be the best self-heal in the game right now.

    Then that should be addressed.

    The best way to address that isn't "make it some sort of click so everyone can use it."

    If the healing needs to be nerfed, nerf it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    While were on the subject of toggles.

    Malevolent Manifestation is still overpowered. Please make a new toggle advantage for Ego Storm.

    I prefer if it worked like Snow Storm.. you charge it up then it works for a longer duration depending on how much you charge it up. It would remain a stationary cast, but once you've charged it up it should work exactly like Sparkstorm's Toggle (aka mobile after the cast).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    oddTodd wrote:
    Reconstruction Circuits may also be the best self-heal in the game right now.

    how can this be true when it only works for one build?
    Its not even the best heal in the tech tree....
    Do you know how many noobs will face plant if you say that in zone chat?

    It may be more accurate to say:

    "Reconstruction Circuits may also be the best self-heal for toggle Pa users right now"

    And even that is being disputed.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    oddTodd wrote:
    Reconstruction Circuits may also be the best self-heal in the game right now.

    There is also the thing about Retcon Circuits taking up the Chest Slot so it actually prevents you from using any Chest slot power for the duration of the heal. This might be something to consider before labeling it as the best self heal. It does have a cost even for PA/TOGGLE users.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    NisDiddums wrote:
    *In this build, we've reduced the required amount of players in order to move things along, and to avoid having 8-9 people waiting around for a tenth to join in.

    Any chance you can make changes similar to this regarding Hero Games Queuing?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    I'm gonna agree with Sigma7 here that I really, really am not a big fan of having a self heal only work for one set. CO *is* at its heart a Freeform game, and things should reflect that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    XaoGarrent wrote:
    I'm gonna agree with Sigma7 here that I really, really am not a big fan of having a self heal only work for one set. CO *is* at its heart a Freeform game, and things should reflect that.

    Well personally I don't like the way TOGGLES work and have pointed out that they are not a feature but something you have to work around. Guess people slowly start to realize what I've been saying all along. The same issue with Retcon Circuits can be applied to all TOGGLES with the exception of the atk TOGGLES which have a nice 120arc limitation on top such that if someone goes beyond that you TOGGLES turn off :rolleyes:. I'm really curious how people that never played PA before will react once they try The Invincible and the TOGGLE mechanic out.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Sloth believes that the devs should take and make Rec Circuits work similar to Electric Personality in Sparkstorm, but the reason Rec Circuits might be having an issue is because it's just a toggle and not a toggle that causes a form.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    oddTodd wrote:
    Reconstruction Circuits may also be the best self-heal in the game right now.

    In terms of raw healing, it does more than heals such as BCR and Resurgence (though the latter is more properly an active defense). It does less the "dedicated heals", such as Arcane Vitality, who have the additonal benefit of being able to heal others (and often multiple others).

    I think all the in-combat self-heals -- such as BCR and Resurgence -- are fire-and-forget, you click them once and then let them do their thing. Most dedicated heals prevent you from doing anything else. RC is in-between; more limited than a click-and-go self-heal, less limited than a pure dedicated heal.

    RC is much like the other PA powers -- it's comparable to, but weaker than, similar powers from other frameworks, but it enables you to multitask using other PA powers. This multitasking being the essence of the PA framework.

    There was a comparison earlier between Bionic Shielding and the initial version of RC, pointing out that Bionic Shielding did as much healing, but could apply it more frequently and with less limitations. This is what led to RC's cooldown being removed. That puts an effective floor to the effectiveness of RC.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Nightrod wrote:
    Well personally I don't like the way TOGGLES work and have pointed out that they are not a feature but something you have to work around. Guess people slowly start to realize what I've been saying all along. The same issue with Retcon Circuits can be applied to all TOGGLES with the exception of the atk TOGGLES which have a nice 120arc limitation on top such that if someone goes beyond that you TOGGLES turn off :rolleyes:. I'm really curious how people that never played PA before will react once they try The Invincible and the TOGGLE mechanic out.

    All other toggles are cancelled when you block. This makes them all much easier to integrate with other powersets. This will be even easier now that all PA attacks do not force other powers into recharge. And Recon Circuits is unique in that you cannot hit block to disable it.

    As-is, Recon Circuits is a more limited power than Eye Beams used to be. Its absolutely useless as a heal for anything besides fully PA attack builds. And even then, only specific PA builds that avoid using any active defenses and offenses will not find this power frustrating. Eye Beams actually had a use back in the day as well, but players hated it because the use-case was so specific. Is that really the kind of power we want to release to Live?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    I just wanted to show my support for an ID mastery style melee focused targeting computer clone. Devs, if you make a melee targeting computer, please keep the cool lock on graphic.:)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Pulsewave wrote:
    All other toggles are cancelled when you block. This makes them all much easier to integrate with other powersets. This will be even easier now that all PA attacks do not force other powers into recharge. And Recon Circuits is unique in that you cannot hit block to disable it.

    As-is, Recon Circuits is a more limited power than Eye Beams used to be. Its absolutely useless as a heal for anything besides fully PA attack builds. And even then, only specific PA builds that avoid using any active defenses and offenses will not find this power frustrating. Eye Beams actually had a use back in the day as well, but players hated it because the use-case was so specific. Is that really the kind of power we want to release to Live?

    Gotta say PW is making a pretty fair point here. I definitely like the power alot but its uses do seem to be limited the more I try it out on different alts. This could prove to be a complication down the road that needs addressing sooner than later
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Sigma7 wrote:
    how can this be true when it only works for one build?
    Its not even the best heal in the tech tree....
    Do you know how many noobs will face plant if you say that in zone chat?

    It may be more accurate to say:

    "Reconstruction Circuits may also be the best self-heal for toggle Pa users right now"

    And even that is being disputed.

    Fine. "Best" was a poor choice of word. Let's compare it straight up with the other heals, though:

    (I normalized all heals to this Reconstruction Circuits' value.)

    RC: Heal 100 per second for 8 seconds, you can block or use shoulder/hand toggles while active, nothing else. Low energy cost (9.5 to activate, 6.5 per tick).

    Bionic Shielding: 160 heal up to 5 times in 15 seconds, must be taking damage to work, 63 energy to activate.

    Conviction: 267 heal once every 4-6 seconds (assuming you bring cooldowns down), 56 energy to activate.

    BCR: 59 heal once every 2 seconds for 16 seconds, 22 energy to activate.

    So right there the straight-up healing available from RC seems substantially better than from those other powers. (If you have a dodge build, Resurgent Reiki still kicks everything else's butt, with 71 heal up to every 0.5 seconds).

    The two maintained heals are slightly better:

    Arcane Vitality: 70 heal every 0.5 seconds for 4 seconds (so about 40% more healing per second than RC), twice the energy cost, and, of course, you can't do anything while you are maintaining it.

    Empathic Healing: 50-150 heal every 0.5 seconds for 5 seconds for a low energy cost; so it starts out competitive with RC and goes up from there, but again you can't do anything else (not even block) while maintaining it.

    So looking at all these numbers, I can't help but feel that, short of BCR w/ RR on a dodge build, all these self heals look pretty balanced against each other. Switching RC to a fire-and-forget click heal like BCR will be unbalanced.

    As I've said before, I fully support letting players click other powers and override their toggles across the board, but I don't support turning RC into just a better version of BCR.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    oddTodd wrote:
    So looking at all these numbers, I can't help but feel that, short of BCR w/ RR on a dodge build, all these self heals look pretty balanced against each other. Switching RC to a fire-and-forget click heal like BCR will be unbalanced.

    As I've said before, I fully support letting players click other powers and override their toggles across the board, but I don't support turning RC into just a better version of BCR.

    Nothing on Recon Circuits can match the effectiveness of BCR+Resurgent Reiki. Add Masterful dodge and you get virtual 'I WIN' button for 15 seconds. That combo alone gives BCR a nice place for all builds. Reiki alone, without Masterful Dodge, gives BCR a kickin place in any build with decent dodge chance. And with current items, that's any build that wants it.

    That's really the difference. BCR is useful on ANY build, but is particularly useful on Dodge builds, or when combined with the in-set power Masterful Dodge. It's not going to be displaced. On the other hand there's Recon Circuits, which is pretty effective on it's own for a very specific Power Armor build only. And it's totally worthless to any non-PA build. Heck, you can't even use a Power Armor energy builder with it activated. I understand what the devs were going for, but it needs some more work. It's more limited than Eye Beams ever was.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Pulsewave wrote:
    Nothing on Recon Circuits can match the effectiveness of BCR+Resurgent Reiki. Add Masterful dodge and you get virtual 'I WIN' button for 15 seconds. That combo alone gives BCR a nice place for all builds. Reiki alone, without Masterful Dodge, gives BCR a kickin place in any build with decent dodge chance. And with current items, that's any build that wants it.

    That's really the difference. BCR is useful on ANY build, but is particularly useful on Dodge builds, or when combined with the in-set power Masterful Dodge. It's not going to be displaced. On the other hand there's Recon Circuits, which is pretty effective on it's own for a very specific Power Armor build only. And it's totally worthless to any non-PA build. Heck, you can't even use a Power Armor energy builder with it activated. I understand what the devs were going for, but it needs some more work. It's more limited than Eye Beams ever was.

    Honestly It all boils down to how TOGGLES interact with other powers that are not in PA. This is going to become more and more evident as more TOGGLE powers will be added since PA, as I said, is not really that compatible with other powers outside it. Yet the other way around is far worse. If you are not a PA toon then using TOGGLES can cause quite a problem. That is why I do not like TOGGLES, they are too restrictive.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Then how do you adjust the core mechanic of PA of Toggles and keep the flavor of PA?

    If you remove the toggle Mechanic of the PA abilities you have Charge and Maintain. What Solution are you proposing to replace the core mechanic of PA?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    oddTodd wrote:

    So looking at all these numbers, I can't help but feel that, short of BCR w/ RR on a dodge build, all these self heals look pretty balanced against each other. Switching RC to a fire-and-forget click heal like BCR will be unbalanced.
    I don't understand.
    When you say unbalanced i assume you mean RC would be over powered? Do you mean it would be better than BCR? I think because of RR BCR will always be better for martial artist, as it should be. It seems like turning it into a click would leave it some where between empathic healing and BCR, but better than neither which doesn't seem overpowered.

    BTW BCR and RC stack, which is currently something only Toggle PA users can take full advantage of.

    I was just in the power house comparing BCR empathic healing and RC. EH stops you from taking any action like RC, but heals WAY more and it also crits.
    I guess my thing is that when you consider non toggle PA players that may take this power, if your going to take a heal that locks you out of all other action, it would only be worth it if it healed on par with empathic healing.


    So heres me trying to meat you 1/2 way
    .:cool:


    BCR imposes a damage debuff in exchange for the freedom and healing it provides. RC heals heals in a way that only worth it for toggle PA players, but for free form players its not worth it unless it heals as much as EH.

    Reconstruction Circuits compromise suggestion:
    So what if RC got buffed to heal as strong as empathic healing and still locked all non PA toggles out. If you activate a PA toggle then the healing on RC debuffs back down for its current level. The power would also cancel on the activation of any power like you said.
    The high heal with lock out, toggle functionality and debuff penalty would make it a hybrid of BCR, RC and EH.

    In this way RC would be as worthwhile of a choice as EH for non toggle PA freeforms and it would still maintain the toggle functionality your so attached to. Personally i think letting you fire non PA attacks (in addition to the above changes) would make it even more flexible but i understand people want it to be a toggle for its uniqueness so bleh...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Actually...For the Rec Circuits why not Click and it gives a self Buff and while you have that buff you if you use another chest slot power it cancels the buff?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Sloth1024 wrote:
    Then how do you adjust the core mechanic of PA of Toggles and keep the flavor of PA?

    If you remove the toggle Mechanic of the PA abilities you have Charge and Maintain. What Solution are you proposing to replace the core mechanic of PA?

    I have no idea how to solve this and never claimed I do. I just pointed out the problems. Yet if you would ask me I don't think there is anything that can be done except for fleshing out PA enough so that it does not have to interact with other power sets too much. I know this is not rally a solution and it limits freeform but it's not me who came up with TOGGLES and I warned them since September/November of the possible complications that can arise if the continue using the TOGGLE mechanic (way before hey even finished the Wind/Earth sets). They did not listen so here we are now. I don't have a solution yet that does not mean that the issues are not there or should be ignored.

    Nevertheless I still appreciate the addition of a TOGGLE heal :P i just wished the SFX would be not that powerful.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Nightrod wrote:
    Honestly It all boils down to how TOGGLES interact with other powers that are not in PA. This is going to become more and more evident as more TOGGLE powers will be added since PA, as I said, is not really that compatible with other powers outside it. Yet the other way around is far worse. If you are not a PA toon then using TOGGLES can cause quite a problem. That is why I do not like TOGGLES, they are too restrictive.

    What problems do toggles cause with other powersets with this Test update? The interaction with other powers has already been fixed. Toggles no longer cause other powers to go into recharge mode. So there's no interaction problems once this update goes live. Toggles now work just like any other attack, except for Recon Circuits. Hence the problem I keep harping on.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Pulsewave wrote:
    What problems do toggles cause with other powersets with this Test update? The interaction with other powers has already been fixed. Toggles no longer cause other powers to go into recharge mode. So there's no interaction problems once this update goes live. Toggles now work just like any other attack, except for Recon Circuits. Hence the problem I keep harping on.

    Mostly the fact that if you wanted to use for example only Concussor Beam from PA then you would have a power that is somewhat weaker than it's counterparts like TK assult. As such you have to talk toggles to make use of the mechanic since apparently PA powers are supposed to be less effective on their own in comparison to other no toggles powers since they can be used together.

    But yes Recon Circuits is more restrictive since if you compare it to BCR you can't atk while it's running unless you have PA powers.

    My point was that in the future when they will add other non dmg powers to PA like Retcon Circuit we will be faced with the same problem yet again. They will have to eventually expand the TOGGLE mechanic with more slots and more varied abilities.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Nightrod wrote:
    Mostly the fact that if you wanted to use for example only Concussor Beam from PA then you would have a power that is somewhat weaker than it's counterparts like TK assult. As such you have to talk toggles to make use of the mechanic since apparently PA powers are supposed to be less effective on their own in comparison to other no toggles powers since they can be used together.

    But yes Recon Circuits is more restrictive since if you compare it to BCR you can't atk while it's running unless you have PA powers.

    My point was that in the future when they will add other non dmg powers to PA like Retcon Circuit we will be faced with the same problem yet again. They will have to eventually expand the TOGGLE mechanic with more slots and more varied abilities.

    Ok. That is nothing at all like you said a few posts back: "Honestly It all boils down to how TOGGLES interact with other powers that are not in PA. This is going to become more and more evident as more TOGGLE powers will be added since PA, as I said, is not really that compatible with other powers outside it. Yet the other way around is far worse. If you are not a PA toon then using TOGGLES can cause quite a problem. That is why I do not like TOGGLES, they are too restrictive."

    At this point it really looks like you just don't like the toggle system. You are entitled to your opinion, but you should realize that there are loads of other options and play them instead. You can build a great hero using Force powers that works like the classic Iron Man hero.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Sloth1024 wrote:
    Actually...For the Rec Circuits why not Click and it gives a self Buff and while you have that buff you if you use another chest slot power it cancels the buff?

    Then you're better off using it outside of PA, such as a build that spams Force Cascade and could basically keep RC going with no limitation. It would be an interesting novelty: a power that is explicitly more limited if and only if used within the framework it's in.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Pulsewave wrote:
    Ok. That is nothing at all like you said a few posts back: "Honestly It all boils down to how TOGGLES interact with other powers that are not in PA. This is going to become more and more evident as more TOGGLE powers will be added since PA, as I said, is not really that compatible with other powers outside it. Yet the other way around is far worse. If you are not a PA toon then using TOGGLES can cause quite a problem. That is why I do not like TOGGLES, they are too restrictive."

    At this point it really looks like you just don't like the toggle system. You are entitled to your opinion, but you should realize that there are loads of other options and play them instead. You can build a great hero using Force powers that works like the classic Iron Man hero.

    I never hid the fact that I'm not particularly fond of TOGGLES :p
    Well yeah lol I could build a PA hero using Infernal blast powers or ice lol thing is I want the beam look/SFX. I wish there was a beam powerset so that I don't really have to deal with all the PA toggle mechanic which does not interest me at all unless I would want to make War Machine like toons. The only reason I'm using it is because there are no other beam powers in the game. You could argue for Force and yeah I know I tried it but I could still not bring myself to use it over actual beam, Force is too transparent it just bugs me. At this point I hope they make a beam set so I can use it to create my Cosmic/PA toons.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Sigma7 wrote:
    I don't understand.
    When you say unbalanced i assume you mean RC would be over powered? Do you mean it would be better than BCR? I think because of RR BCR will always be better for martial artist, as it should be. It seems like turning it into a click would leave it some where between empathic healing and BCR, but better than neither which doesn't seem overpowered.

    BTW BCR and RC stack, which is currently something only Toggle PA users can take full advantage of.

    I was just in the power house comparing BCR empathic healing and RC. EH stops you from taking any action like RC, but heals WAY more and it also crits.
    I guess my thing is that when you consider non toggle PA players that may take this power, if your going to take a heal that locks you out of all other action, it would only be worth it if it healed on par with empathic healing.


    So heres me trying to meat you 1/2 way
    .:cool:


    BCR imposes a damage debuff in exchange for the freedom and healing it provides. RC heals heals in a way that only worth it for toggle PA players, but for free form players its not worth it unless it heals as much as EH.

    Reconstruction Circuits compromise suggestion:
    So what if RC got buffed to heal as strong as empathic healing and still locked all non PA toggles out. If you activate a PA toggle then the healing on RC debuffs back down for its current level. The power would also cancel on the activation of any power like you said.
    The high heal with lock out, toggle functionality and debuff penalty would make it a hybrid of BCR, RC and EH.

    In this way RC would be as worthwhile of a choice as EH for non toggle PA freeforms and it would still maintain the toggle functionality your so attached to. Personally i think letting you fire non PA attacks (in addition to the above changes) would make it even more flexible but i understand people want it to be a toggle for its uniqueness so bleh...

    I totally concede that BCR with the advantage and a dodge build (or Masterful Dodge) is amazing. But I would prefer that it get nerfed even further instead of having other heals buffed to that level, which totally trivializes any remaining challenge in the game and completely eliminates the need for a healer.

    You make an interesting suggestion for a new behavior, but I've already stated what my preference is: Toggles should no longer lock out any other powers, but if you activate a non-toggle power, it shuts off all your toggles. I think that would solve most of the inconvenience, and all it would mean for non-PA users is that if you want to click your Active Defense or whatever, you just have to turn RC back on.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Tested some with RC. Mostly to see exactly what PA powers work with it. It's... confusing actually. It's not that it only allows toggles; there's a few non-toggle PA powers that can be used. Laser Sword, Lightspeed Dash, and Energy Wave can be used while RC is active.

    My suggestions:
    1. Make all PA powers able to be used while RC is active at least. This way RC is viable for any PA build.
    2. Make RC toggle off when blocking, as all other PA toggles do.
    Sure, it'd be nice if RC played well with other powers too, but I think the above would at least make the power worthwhile for any mix of PA powers. It'll be useful to the set instead of only one type of build within a frameset.

    EDIT:::
    oddTodd wrote:
    IYou make an interesting suggestion for a new behavior, but I've already stated what my preference is: Toggles should no longer lock out any other powers, but if you activate a non-toggle power, it shuts off all your toggles. I think that would solve most of the inconvenience, and all it would mean for non-PA users is that if you want to click your Active Defense or whatever, you just have to turn RC back on.
    This would be even more ideal than what I just said.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    kallethen wrote:

    My suggestions:
    1. Make all PA powers able to be used while RC is active at least. This way RC is viable for any PA build.
    2. Make RC toggle off when blocking, as all other PA toggles do.

    Interesting.
    I just know that offensive Melee PA is going to be hella squishy (Assuming that TC buffs melee). Being able to use RC on a melee PA build would be nice.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Pulsewave wrote:
    Nothing on Recon Circuits can match the effectiveness of BCR+Resurgent Reiki. Add Masterful dodge and you get virtual 'I WIN' button for 15 seconds. That combo alone gives BCR a nice place for all builds. Reiki alone, without Masterful Dodge, gives BCR a kickin place in any build with decent dodge chance. And with current items, that's any build that wants it.

    That's really the difference. BCR is useful on ANY build, but is particularly useful on Dodge builds, or when combined with the in-set power Masterful Dodge. It's not going to be displaced. On the other hand there's Recon Circuits, which is pretty effective on it's own for a very specific Power Armor build only. And it's totally worthless to any non-PA build. Heck, you can't even use a Power Armor energy builder with it activated. I understand what the devs were going for, but it needs some more work. It's more limited than Eye Beams ever was.

    Anything using the PA slot system is only going to be useful to a build using the PA slot system. PA is unique in that's it's a stand alone framework, but there is a lot of flexibility within the framework. Several different builds are possible.

    And I really thing that people are discounting how good Reconstruction Circuits really is within PA. RC triggers the Energy shield Phalanx Defense System advantage. RC runs while blocking. with or w/o Energy Shield. And RC will triggers a stack of Concentration.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Sigma7 wrote:
    Woah, your going way too far here. i NEVER said this i have a lv 21 PA build on live right now. Dont put words in my mouth. How did you get "toggles shouldn't exist" from this?

    It wasn't any specific sentence, just the general impression I got from posts like this. It could also be that I confused some of...
    Nightrod wrote:
    Well personally I don't like the way TOGGLES work and have pointed out that they are not a feature but something you have to work around. Guess people slowly start to realize what I've been saying all along. The same issue with Retcon Circuits can be applied to all TOGGLES with the exception of the atk TOGGLES which have a nice 120arc limitation on top such that if someone goes beyond that you TOGGLES turn off :rolleyes:. I'm really curious how people that never played PA before will react once they try The Invincible and the TOGGLE mechanic out.

    ...Nightrod's posts for yours. :p
    XaoGarrent wrote:
    I'm gonna agree with Sigma7 here that I really, really am not a big fan of having a self heal only work for one set. CO *is* at its heart a Freeform game, and things should reflect that.

    PA toggles only really work well for PA set. They are somewhat weaker if used with another set.. in case of rec circuits, if used outside PA toggle build, it's kind of like a weaker maintained heal that you can combine with blocking.

    I'll agree with Pulsewave that it would be good if all PA toggles (including rec circuits) got stopped when 'incompatible' power is used (AO, AD, bionic shielding, pulse beam rifle, whatever). It would make their integration with other powersets much less painful. Aside from that I think rec circuits works fine as is. I don't want it to stop while blocking though, for reasons I've mentioned earlier.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    fuzun wrote:
    Anything using the PA slot system is only going to be useful to a build using the PA slot system. PA is unique in that's it's a stand alone framework, but there is a lot of flexibility within the framework. Several different builds are possible.

    And I really thing that people are discounting how good Reconstruction Circuits really is within PA. RC triggers the Energy shield Phalanx Defense System advantage. RC runs while blocking. with or w/o Energy Shield. And RC will triggers a stack of Concentration.

    Chest Beam is a great attack whether or not you use other toggles. Plasma Beam and Concussion Beam are also useful without other toggles. You don't NEED to match the attacks up to make them useful. They just work better with each other, just like every other framework. You can use them alone, but you miss out on the synergy that way. All the powersets do that.

    Personally, I think you're overstating how good Recon Circuits is. While it does have the benefits you mention, you can't use your energy builder while it's on and you can't activate any other powers. In an open-choice game like this, those limitations override the inherent synergies of Recon Circuits.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    More on Recon Circuits: One power that I think we could look at when thinking of how it should work is Dark Transfusion. That's a power that is designed to work in-set with severe limitations. It reduces all incoming healing while dealing you damage, with the only healing that works coming from within set. But it fills your energy and gives equilibrium, plus it gives a nice damage boost.

    Overall that's a power that does have a specific application, and works best in-set. But it's useful for builds using attacks from any powerset that want more energy and damage. The penalty can only be offset with Darkness powers, but Dark Transfusion is still useful for more than just darkness builds.

    As far as Recon Circuits goes, there's a dev post saying that the power is intended to be a choice between dealing more damage, or healing over time. It takes up the chest slot (although Micro Munitions still fires), so while active it disables your energy builder and all non-PA slot powers of any kind. This is what makes Recon Circuits of such limited value overall. It blocks all other powers while running, except for hand and shoulder slot PA attacks. That's a much more severe limitation than Dark Transfusion, and Recon Circuits is less useful across powersets.

    Right now the only time that Recon Circuits works for all sets is when the user is blocking. It disables most attacks now anyway, and all energy builders. So it's a very good heal if all you do is block, and it's a terrible power otherwise for most builds. So how about tying Recon Circuits to block directly?

    SOLUTION: Have Recon Circuits heal the user at the current level ONLY while blocking. Reduce Recon Circuit's healing rate to 25% of normal when not blocking. Allow Recon Circuits to trigger the Phalanx Defense System advantage of Energy Shield, as it currently does. Remove Recon Circuits from the toggle system completely so that it doesnt prevent any other powers from working. (Note: The current level is +245 health every 1 s for 8 s. Total of 1960 health over 8 seconds for my lvl 40 with 10 PRE. Reducing healing to 25% while not blocking makes this a less effective heal than default BCR, and Recon Circuits uses much more energy.)

    That change keeps to the spirit of Recon Circuits by encouraging the player to block instead of attack for the full benefit. It also preserves the in-set synergy of the power by triggering the defensive benefit of Energy Shield's 3-point Phalanx Defense advantage. The numbers I've suggested may need to be adjusted. Im not sure that at 25% healing this power would be worth it anyway, as all other heals would be better. But it all allows this new power to be useful for any build. And it works in a new way that no heal does today.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Pulsewave wrote:
    The numbers I've suggested may need to be adjusted. Im not sure that at 25% healing this power would be worth it anyway, as all other heals would be better. But it all allows this new power to be useful for any build. And it works in a new way that no heal does today.

    I'm not a big fan of your proposed mechanics to begin with, but given 25% of current performance, I would simply go next door to the Gadgeteering tree and grab Bionic Shielding and get more healing with fewer limitations. I don't think the power would be viable at all unless it provides at least as much healing over 15 seconds than Bionic Shielding.

    Mind you, that change in mechanics would probably drive me to do that anyway. A weak self-heal that works better if you block? Meh.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Pulsewave wrote:
    That change keeps to the spirit of Recon Circuits by encouraging the player to block instead of attack for the full benefit.

    I don't think that's true at all. The spirit of RC to me is that I can cycle it in with my minigun and plasma beam or what not to keep pouring on the fire. Bionic Shielding and BCR's Resurgent Reiki advantage are both much worse than the current incarnation of RC if you are playing team content and you aren't a tank, and the maintained heals require that you stop attacking. Conviction is really the only other option, and the healing from RC is superior, plus it triggers Overdrive.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Pulsewave wrote:
    (SNIP)
    SOLUTION: Have Recon Circuits heal the user at the current level ONLY while blocking. Reduce Recon Circuit's healing rate to 25% of normal when not blocking. Allow Recon Circuits to trigger the Phalanx Defense System advantage of Energy Shield, as it currently does. Remove Recon Circuits from the toggle system completely so that it doesnt prevent any other powers from working. (Note: The current level is +245 health every 1 s for 8 s. Total of 1960 health over 8 seconds for my lvl 40 with 10 PRE. Reducing healing to 25% while not blocking makes this a less effective heal than default BCR, and Recon Circuits uses much more energy.)

    That change keeps to the spirit of Recon Circuits by encouraging the player to block instead of attack for the full benefit. It also preserves the in-set synergy of the power by triggering the defensive benefit of Energy Shield's 3-point Phalanx Defense advantage. The numbers I've suggested may need to be adjusted. Im not sure that at 25% healing this power would be worth it anyway, as all other heals would be better. But it all allows this new power to be useful for any build. And it works in a new way that no heal does today.

    I think this would destroy Rec Circuits. People generally want to minimize the time they are blocking, because while they are blocking they aren't doing anything useful. Having a healing power that's practically useless if you aren't blocking, would make it next to worthless - unless it's effects would be positively massive. I don't see how it would keep the 'spirit of RC' either - I can't see it being meant to 'encourage people to block'. It was designed to work with PA toggles, it offers people a choice between using a chest slot weapon, or using that slot for healing, thereby reducing their damage output for the time.

    I don't think the fact that RC heals you while you are blocking is really anything very special if you look at the bigger picture. BCR heals you while you block. Bionic Shielding heals you while you block. CoPD heals you while you block. Any clicky heals aren't terribly much affected by blocking either - since you can just stop blocking for a split-second it takes to activate them.. and their cooldown will cycle while you block.

    I think it's balance measure - the heals that you can't use while blocking, are generally the charge/maintain heals that overall are more powerful than RC. The mechanism as it is now, allows it to be comparable (within PA set) with the other non-charge, non-maintain heals.

    I could imagine something like a 2-point advantage that would allow RC to run as 'regular toggle', without disabling powers. But I don't know if there would then be enough to distinguish it from BCR - is there really such a big difference between a regular toggle, or a clicky that has a lingering effect?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    MathMan wrote:
    I'm not a big fan of your proposed mechanics to begin with, but given 25% of current performance, I would simply go next door to the Gadgeteering tree and grab Bionic Shielding and get more healing with fewer limitations. I don't think the power would be viable at all unless it provides at least as much healing over 15 seconds than Bionic Shielding.

    Mind you, that change in mechanics would probably drive me to do that anyway. A weak self-heal that works better if you block? Meh.

    Bionic Shielding should be more effective than Recon Circuit's baseline heal though. Bionic Shielding has the big limitation of not healing squat unless you take damage. My proposal would make Recon Circuits a weak self-heal if you're attacking, but it becomes that strongest heal while you block. And it works in or out of combat without having to take damage.

    Here are my test numbers for sample heals:
    Recon Circuits: +245 health every 1 s for 8 s. Total of 1960 health over 8 seconds. Cost 5.6 initial energy plus 3.7 energy / s for 35.5 total. No recharge time. Penalty that it cannot crit.

    BCR: +145 health every 2 s for 16 s. Total of 1160 health over 16 seconds. Cost 13 energy. Recharge 8.7 s. Can stack on itself and has fantastic Resurgent Reiki advantage. Penalty of 10% damage.

    Bionic Shielding: +393 health when attacked, up to 5 times for 1965 total health. Cost 37 energy. No recharge but can only affect every 15 seconds. Penalty of no heal without being attacked.

    Conviction: +654 health. Cost 33 energy. Recharge 3.5 s.

    My goal is to make Recon Circuits roughly equal to other heals overall, rather than something that's totally incredible for a very specific build but useless for 98% of the builds in the game. I just realized that Recon Circuits also has a penalty that it cannot crit. Perhaps if you applied my recommendation that penalty could be removed. I think it could use some testing. But I'd like to see the power in action. Even though the self-heal is weak while not blocking, it does give you free health over time without a direct penalty to damage dealt. You just have to pay the energy cost. And when you block, the heal is pretty substantial.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Pulsewave wrote:
    Bionic Shielding should be more effective than Recon Circuit's baseline heal though. Bionic Shielding has the big limitation of not healing squat unless you take damage. My proposal would make Recon Circuits a weak self-heal if you're attacking, but it becomes that strongest heal while you block. And it works in or out of combat without having to take damage.

    Here are my test numbers for sample heals:
    Recon Circuits: +245 health every 1 s for 8 s. Total of 1960 health over 8 seconds. Cost 5.6 initial energy plus 3.7 energy / s for 35.5 total. No recharge time. Penalty that it cannot crit.

    BCR: +145 health every 2 s for 16 s. Total of 1160 health over 16 seconds. Cost 13 energy. Recharge 8.7 s. Can stack on itself and has fantastic Resurgent Reiki advantage. Penalty of 10% damage.

    Bionic Shielding: +393 health when attacked, up to 5 times for 1965 total health. Cost 37 energy. No recharge but can only affect every 15 seconds. Penalty of no heal without being attacked.

    Conviction: +654 health. Cost 33 energy. Recharge 3.5 s.

    My goal is to make Recon Circuits roughly equal to other heals overall, rather than something that's totally incredible for a very specific build but useless for 98% of the builds in the game. I just realized that Recon Circuits also has a penalty that it cannot crit. Perhaps if you applied my recommendation that penalty could be removed. I think it could use some testing. But I'd like to see the power in action. Even though the self-heal is weak while not blocking, it does give you free health over time without a direct penalty to damage dealt. You just have to pay the energy cost. And when you block, the heal is pretty substantial.

    You need to also remember a rather significant point that Bionic Shielding is not limited to self-only, and when you apply it to other people it's overall heal-per-time grows dramatically. It's also very efficient as a 'shield' thrown on someone who's under heavy pressure - giving you time to use a slower heal like Psionic Healing. The not healing while not taking damage usually isn't a big deal - if you didn't take damage, you didn't really need the healing either.. and you can simply re-apply it as the timer runs out. Most of the time if you've been taking enough damage to take your health low, you'll get hit a few times during the 16 second span - or you take bleeding or poison damage which also triggers it. The only time when I find it matters, is the rare occasions when you get ONLY hit by big nukes.. and no small hits at all. What is more significant though, is that the 'cooldown' in it cannot be shortened.

    BCR on the other hand I'd never take on a build that doesn't have a reasonable amount of dodge chance.. and I'd never take it without reiki advantage. As far as I'm concerned, BCR = reiki. I rarely, if ever, bother to rank up BCR - because it's base heal isn't really the point.

    If you want to compare the power of those healing skills, then compare them in the situation where they are used for their full advantage. Consider BCR+reiki with character that has 60% dodge, and enough cooldown reduction to shave off a chunk of it's cooldown.

    Consider Bionic Shielding used in a team setting where you can apply it to 3 or 4 characters at time. Factor in situations when a squichy character pulls an aggro, and you need to keep that character alive until tank can re-establish aggro.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    oddTodd wrote:
    I don't think that's true at all. The spirit of RC to me is that I can cycle it in with my minigun and plasma beam or what not to keep pouring on the fire. Bionic Shielding and BCR's Resurgent Reiki advantage are both much worse than the current incarnation of RC if you are playing team content and you aren't a tank, and the maintained heals require that you stop attacking. Conviction is really the only other option, and the healing from RC is superior, plus it triggers Overdrive.

    I mentioned the spirit of Recon Circuits because of a post by Akinos: Originally Posted by CrypticAkinos
    ...Reconstruction is currently intended to be a choice between more DPS or self healing in the Chest Slot....
    That post, plus the fact that Recon Circuits can work for all builds, but only while blocking and not attacking, is where I get to the current spirit of the power.

    What you mentioned about Bionic Shielding and BCR is exactly what I'm trying to accomplish with Recon Circuits. Those powers are relatively balanced while being useful for various builds. Recon Circuits is not balanced at all, but it instead limited by being useful only for very specific builds.

    Bionic Shielding is an easy comparison. The power is useless unless you take damage. Compare my proposed Recon Circuits to Bionic and now you actually have a decision to make. If you're always taking damage then Bionic Shielding is still the best choice for a self-heal. That's as it should be, because you don't get healed at all from Bionic unless you take more damage.

    With my change to Recon Circuits you'll never be in the situation where you waste your heal. You always get healed, and you don't have a direct damage penalty for self-healing like you do with BCR. If you're using Energy Shield's Phalanx System advantage you automatically get a defense bonus while healing too. But it's a weak heal if you're attacking, and a very strong heal if you block. That sounds balanced to me. Yeah, I wouldnt choose it on every hero, but I'd think about using it on a lot of my builds. The goal should be to make powers that are useful for many builds, balanced with other powers, and a little bit better when combined with other powers in the framework.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Pulsewave wrote:
    Bionic Shielding should be more effective than Recon Circuit's baseline heal though. Bionic Shielding has the big limitation of not healing squat unless you take damage.

    It has, however, the not-inconsiderable benefit of being able to heal other people.

    It's also considerably less limiting than the current version of RC as it doesn't impose any action restrictions on you or the recipient.
    Pulsewave wrote:
    My proposal would make Recon Circuits a weak self-heal if you're attacking, but it becomes that strongest heal while you block.

    I could maybe see someone using a power like this, but I wouldn't. It's also not anything like the current Reconstruction Circuits or its "spirit" (no DPS tradeoff, no Chest Slot).
    Pulsewave wrote:
    And it works in or out of combat without having to take damage.

    Out-of-combat regeneration is quick enough that a heal that works there is of rather limited benefit.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    MathMan wrote:
    It has, however, the not-inconsiderable benefit of being able to heal other people.

    It's also considerably less limiting than the current version of RC as it doesn't impose any action restrictions on you or the recipient.



    I could maybe see someone using a power like this, but I wouldn't. It's also not anything like the current Reconstruction Circuits or its "spirit" (no DPS tradeoff, no Chest Slot).



    Out-of-combat regeneration is quick enough that a heal that works there is of rather limited benefit.

    There's a DPS tradeoff in that Recon Circuits already has a significant energy cost. That reduces your DPS if you spam it. You can basically have a perpetual weak self-heal if you can afford the energy cost. At that point you need to make sure that the heal does not displace BCR. I don't see the chest slot being a big deal either, especially considering that it currently isn't doing anything as-is. Recon Circuits currently doesnt lock out Micro Munitions. The chest slot thing was either an idea that was passed on or it's bugged.

    And there's a difference between out-of-combat healing and being able to heal without taking more damage. On many occasions I've wanted a basic heal for brief pauses while soloing the Serpent Lantern. You don't drop into non-combat mode when you move between groups. I generally prefer Conviction since I know that I'm getting my heal when I want it, and I know that many other players feel this way. My change would make Recon Circuits heal less than Conviction while not blocking, but would cost less energy. And while you block the heal would be better than Conviction. And overall Recon Circuits is less of a hassle since it only has to be activated every 8 seconds instead of every 4 seconds or so.

    Again, my point isnt to design a heal that's so good it's a no-brainer for everyone to choose. That's not balanced. My goal is to adjust a power with extreme limitations and make it something that a variety of builds could use. If you can see where my power is useful for a variety of builds, but that you wouldnt choose to use it for others, isn't that a good thing? If my numbers are off, that's easy to adjust. The main point is finding a mechanic that's new and works without getting over or underpowered. Isn't the current version of Recon Circuits totally useless for almost every build in the game, and overpowered for the specific builds that it's tailored to?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Pulsewave wrote:
    I mentioned the spirit of Recon Circuits because of a post by Akinos: Originally Posted by CrypticAkinos
    ...Reconstruction is currently intended to be a choice between more DPS or self healing in the Chest Slot....
    That post, plus the fact that Recon Circuits can work for all builds, but only while blocking and not attacking, is where I get to the current spirit of the power.

    The key word there is "more" DPS. I interpret that statement to mean you should still be doing some damage while healing, just less than you would otherwise. The fact that RC doesn't work while attacking for other builds is because it was designed as a PA toggle, not because it was designed to interact with other powersets in a particular way.

    I don't want a heal that requires me to do nothing but turtle for 8 seconds in order to be effective. I could use my Active Defense and Empathic Healing for that.

    I also don't get how your proposed changes make RC more useful to non-PA builds. You can already use RC and hold block and get the full heal.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    More problems with PA energy costs

    So...can we get this looked at? Like, seriously?

    Pennywidget's using Wrist Bolters w/Automated Assault, Minigun, Micromunitions, Inertial Dampening Field, Attack Toys and Drones on Live, and was using Force Sheath, MSA, and stray Wrist Bolter ticks between toggle activations for energy returns. She's running INT/end/ego with a full suite of Silver Champions purple primaries and whatever secondaries I've picked up that fit. On Live, prior to the recent MSA-bustin', that worked just fine - I didn't really have energy problems if I stayed on top of Force Sheathe and made sure to flicker my toggles every now and then.

    On PTS, as I'd stated in the last patch notes thread, the exact same configuration of powers, substituting Overdrive for MSA as was required, was a godawful mess. I was out of energy constantly, and had to spend inordinate time on the builder just to work up enough energy to hold one toggle on long enough to try and get at least one goddamned stack of Overdrive going. I switched to Concentration over IDF to see if it helped. Nurp. I respecced Penny's Commander line for maximum active-pet discount. Helped somewhat, but not enough. I deactivated the pets altogether, and still had to be careful using just Minigun and Micromunitions.

    I don't know if it's just something I've overlooked, but I'm not the only one seeing bizarrely massive cost increases for PA powers, I'm not. Can we check and see if there's some manner of bug somewhere.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    oddTodd wrote:
    The key word there is "more" DPS. I interpret that statement to mean you should still be doing some damage while healing, just less than you would otherwise. The fact that RC doesn't work while attacking for other builds is because it was designed as a PA toggle, not because it was designed to interact with other powersets in a particular way.

    Yes, Recon Circuits working as a toggle realistically prevents most builds from using it. Even exclusively PA builds are hamstrung by it, as active offenses and defenses are disabled, along with the energy builder. I consider that an issue that should be worked out in beta and not released to Live.
    I don't want a heal that requires me to do nothing but turtle for 8 seconds in order to be effective. I could use my Active Defense and Empathic Healing for that.

    Then you should like my recommended change. Currently the only way to make use of Recon Circuits for most builds is to hold block, because all your other powers are disabled anyway. My solution fixes this and allows the heal to function without disabling your other powers.
    I also don't get how your proposed changes make RC more useful to non-PA builds. You can already use RC and hold block and get the full heal.

    My solution keeps the Recon Circuit's healing just as effective as ever while blocking. However, my solution also allows you to use clicky powers while Recon Circuits is running, as well as use any attacks from any powerset. That makes Recon Circuits much more universally useful. It might not be the heal that you'd choose on every build, but it should be a useful heal for some builds. For example, any non-Celestial build that currently uses Conviction for healing (IE: not for MSA trigger) should benefit from my take on Recon Circuits.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    More problems with PA energy costs

    So...can we get this looked at? Like, seriously?

    Pennywidget's using Wrist Bolters w/Automated Assault, Minigun, Micromunitions, Inertial Dampening Field, Attack Toys and Drones on Live, and was using Force Sheath, MSA, and stray Wrist Bolter ticks between toggle activations for energy returns. She's running INT/end/ego with a full suite of Silver Champions purple primaries and whatever secondaries I've picked up that fit. On Live, prior to the recent MSA-bustin', that worked just fine - I didn't really have energy problems if I stayed on top of Force Sheathe and made sure to flicker my toggles every now and then.

    On PTS, as I'd stated in the last patch notes thread, the exact same configuration of powers, substituting Overdrive for MSA as was required, was a godawful mess. I was out of energy constantly, and had to spend inordinate time on the builder just to work up enough energy to hold one toggle on long enough to try and get at least one goddamned stack of Overdrive going. I switched to Concentration over IDF to see if it helped. Nurp. I respecced Penny's Commander line for maximum active-pet discount. Helped somewhat, but not enough. I deactivated the pets altogether, and still had to be careful using just Minigun and Micromunitions.

    I don't know if it's just something I've overlooked, but I'm not the only one seeing bizarrely massive cost increases for PA powers, I'm not. Can we check and see if there's some manner of bug somewhere.

    I suggest the following:
    • Check the description for MSA on Live vs Overdrive on PTS and report the energy return along with your current End/Int/Rec stat levels
    • Starting with nothing else active, monitor the energy cost (from the tooltip) for a fully-charged Chest Beam.
    • Start adding pets, IDF, and other toggles, and monitor how the tooltip changes as you add each one.
    • Do this on Live and on PTS and see if the same set-up is actually showing drastically different energy costs for a given power.
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