The thing is, though, this AT is clearly War Machine, not Iron Man. It's armor that primarily gets beat up (and fires a whole lot of weapons to get there).
Also now I keep listening to the Swat Kats theme. Thanks, Yuri. Thanks a lot.
The thing is, though, this AT is clearly War Machine, not Iron Man. It's armor that primarily gets beat up (and fires a whole lot of weapons to get there).
Also now I keep listening to the Swat Kats theme. Thanks, Yuri. Thanks a lot.
Update: Power Armor Archetype: The Invincible:
Now has Overdrive instead of Molecular Self Assembly.
That's a really disappointing change. This archetype is not too hot right now. It needs to have attacks removed and utility powers added. I'm still sticking with this recommendation as workable. This isn't even ideal, but it's all in the tech tree. I don't know how you could argue with it.
Power Set
01 Power Bolts (New energy builder)
01 Tactical Missiles (New power) OR Power Gauntlet
06 Mini Gun OR Shoulder Launcher
08 Invulnerability
11 Molecular Self Assembly (replace this with Power Armor energy unlock when it's ready)
Update: Power Armor Archetype: The Invincible:
Now has Overdrive instead of Molecular Self Assembly.
That's a really disappointing change. This archetype is not too hot right now. It needs to have attacks removed and utility powers added. I'm still sticking with this recommendation as workable. This isn't even ideal, but it's all in the tech tree. I don't know how you could argue with it.
Power Set
01 Power Bolts (New energy builder)
01 Tactical Missiles (New power) OR Power Gauntlet
06 Mini Gun OR Shoulder Launcher
08 Invulnerability
11 Molecular Self Assembly (replace this with Power Armor energy unlock when it's ready)
14 Energy Shield OR Bionic Shielding
17 Micro Munitions
22 Lock and Load OR Concentration
27 Chest Beam OR Energy Wave
32 Unbreakable
40 Fire All Weapons (new power)
Why the choice between Bionic Shielding and Energy shield? One a block, ones a heal. I would think the shield should be Energy shield and a choice between Unbreakable and Bionic Shielding.
Why the choice between Bionic Shielding and Energy shield? One a block, ones a heal. I would think the shield should be Energy shield and a choice between Unbreakable and Bionic Shielding.
A choice for Bionic Shielding would be fine with Unbreakable too. The main thing would be to get a self heal in somewhere. I would go with Bionic and Unbreakable vs anything with Energy Shield.
A choice for Bionic Shielding would be fine with Unbreakable too. The main thing would be to get a self heal in somewhere. I would go with Bionic and Unbreakable vs anything with Energy Shield.
I would suggest a choice between Force Shield or Energy Shield, (energy assist or more tankiness) and Bionic (BS) or Unbreakable. Unbreakable isn't a heal, but in team with a healer it teaches another aspect of the game. The other option could be BS or Support Drones(SD). SD fits the tech theme for PA.
I would suggest a choice between Force Shield or Energy Shield, (energy assist or more tankiness) and Bionic (BS) or Unbreakable. Unbreakable isn't a heal, but in team with a healer it teaches another aspect of the game. The other option could be BS or Support Drones(SD). SD fits the tech theme for PA.
Yea. It seems that there is a fixed rule that every AT must pick up a block at 14. So, recommand a heal at lvl 14 is ... well, unless they're going to make the first execption.
the new block advantage fixes the energy shield issue so scratch that one from your list guys, remaining issue for the AT is still the skill arrangement and the lack of self heals. We will see what akinos has for us regarding the latter of those things.
Highly recommend switching primary SS to End. It's got a much better spec tree for PA, includes a couple of nice tanking specs (CC resist and +HP), and it seems to work much better with running energy intensive toggles, especially considering it's easier to get cost reduction than +energy from gear.
The chest slot self-heal seems to fix another issue on the archetype.
Could we please get the OP edited and kept up to date with the current plan for the release version of the AT? It would seem relevant for this thread and the discussion in it.
I think Energy Shield really does need a ranged version of Laser Knight, or some other useful benefit for ranged attackers, PA only has one melee attack. While Laser Sword isn't bad{/I], it's not really enough for most people to make a build around it. Why can't the in set Block for PA get an advantage for using ranged attacks?
They can give the Laser Knight advantage to Retaliation and then give Energy Shield some kind of ranged version of Laser Knight or something.
Tried the Invincible AT, took it to 35 using Debugger.
Plasma Beam emits from hands, immediately skewing 90 degrees from current facing and burning the daylights out of the pavement, but will NOT hit selected target.
Nothing in the tooltip or power description seems to shed light on this malfunction. Is it WAI or am I just using it wrong?
Tried the Invincible AT, took it to 35 using Debugger.
Plasma Beam emits from hands, immediately skewing 90 degrees from current facing and burning the daylights out of the pavement, but will NOT hit selected target.
Nothing in the tooltip or power description seems to shed light on this malfunction. Is it WAI or am I just using it wrong?
The visuals are bugged, but the beam actually does damage things in front of you.
so aside from trying to squee bionic shield in here somewhere what else needs ironing out for the AT aside from plasma beam
-self heal check
-energy shield fixed check
-new energy unlock - check
other than the tweaks to certain options i think we should be nearly set on the AT
still a bit iffy on the SSs but hey personal preference does not = AT worthy
Concentration. Now that we have a ranged-specific toggle that works great with PA, it feels a bit eh to not use it - especially with defensive passive which means you don't get hit by diminishing returns on damage bonuses. Having the form would help maintain aggro too (through improved damage). Having INT as prime SS means you even have the right stat for the form toggle.
I'm not certain where to put it. I'd like it as a pick between Fire All Weapons and Concentration, but level 40 seems a bit late for form. Instead it could perhaps be put as an pick between Overdrive and Concentration (even though I'd really like to have both as an option).
And of course the self-heal could be made more, you know, useful. Like, try putting it as a pick between Bionic Shielding (T1) and Rec Circuits (T3), and see how many people fail to make the right choice.
I am a fan of Endurance primary largely cause a bigger pool of energy = less maintenance, i really find INT to be lackluster with the amount of energy cost reduction on gear right now so it seems superfluous. As for concentration i agree it's...a bit difficult to squeeze into the archetype...the only way i can slice it is if you put the choice between power beam and concentration while removing energy wave. There is just no way to get it in there without sacking something else for it unfortunately.
I am a fan of Endurance primary largely cause a bigger pool of energy = less maintenance, i really find INT to be lackluster with the amount of energy cost reduction on gear right now so it seems superfluous. As for concentration i agree it's...a bit difficult to squeeze into the archetype...the only way i can slice it is if you put the choice between power beam and concentration while removing energy wave. There is just no way to get it in there without sacking something else for it unfortunately.
If only they would consider adding another power choice to the archetype....
Considering this AT is so far seemingly the most "polished" out of ALL the ATs i've seen thus far i don't think it's that bad off. I agree though todd they should just add in a baseline toggle for all ATs just as a double perk at some level you get this + this and bam problem solved right there.
As the first person in the thread to say it, afaik, I'm going to re-iterate along with everyone else -- Please switch the Primary SS to Endurance. It works ever so much better for the AT for so many reasons.
As the first person in the thread to say it, afaik, I'm going to re-iterate along with everyone else -- Please switch the Primary SS to Endurance. It works ever so much better for the AT for so many reasons.
What reasons are those? You should list them if you want to make your case. In my tests for On Alert, primary super-intelligence was more effective than endurance. For this archetype you get better energy returns from your energy unlock plus faster recharge times for Unbreakable and Fire All Weapons.
What makes such a compelling case for primary super endurance?
Wait, you say the energy builder isn't Wrist Bolter? .... well, then I have no idea .... :P
Yeah, that's not possible for the Invincible. Next!
Even if it was possible, that combo is over-valued now. The only way to make that combo worthwhile in my testing was to stack both Mini Gun and Shoulder Launcher at the same time. Otherwise you were better off just using your energy builder when necessary. You can't use multiple shoulder toggles now, and energy is much easier to come by with Concentration, so there is much less value in Kickback for everyone.
What makes such a compelling case for primary super endurance?
The Invincible AT is intended as a Ranged Tank archetype. Given the relatively narrow specializations of Archetypes, we can assume that the priorities of the AT follow the general "Tank" priorities.
Mission completion.
Survive.
Maintain threat control.
Deal damage.
Mitigate incidental damage on behalf of allies. ("Support.")
4 and 5 are theoretically interchangeable dependent on build, however, the primary cause of mission failure in the game thus far is time-outs, so we can safely assume that damage is a higher native priority for tanking ATs than support.
Intelligence is highly synergistic with damage-dealing; it particularly benefits powers with long cooldowns and high costs. It also benefits high-offense characters by synergizing with energy-return mechanics outside of the innate energy returns (Equilibrium, Energy Builders, and Blocking) -- the innate energy return mechanics work better for defensive characters. The talents in the Intelligence tree are damage- and "hard" (non-threat) control- oriented. Thus, it perfectly suits 4 and by extension 3 on the chart above.
Endurance is moderately synergistic with mitigation. It offers its greatest energy return benefit to characters who will be using their energy builder often; however, it also offers a larger 'battery' to characters who will be gaining energy via other means (such as blocking). Several of the talents in the Endurance tree are mitigation-oriented; of particular note are Hardened (max HP increase from Endurance) and Withstand (2SSes grant Mez resistance, an invaluable quality for tanks the AT otherwise has some difficulty obtaining). In addition, its Mastery specialization offers an energy-return mechanic which is useful for any role.
By 'stat value' alone, Intelligence is slightly better; it indirectly offers better control via threat via greater damage. But given that the argument is in favor of choosing a Primary Super Stat, rather than excluding one or the other from the AT, the most significant consideration I can see is really the talent tree. The Intelligence Mastery is virtually useless for the AT and very few of its talents offer mitigation; it allows Constitution to grant 18 HP per point rather than 15 (less maxhp gain even assuming all-equal stats than the Endurance talent Hardened) and a 12% increase to defense from items. None of its talents offer Mez Resist.
Endurance is the clear winner; the stat value gap is more than overcome by its specializations' far better meeting of higher Role priorities. For a similar, Avenger-role Power Armor Archetype, I would say the opposite, but that is not what we are dealing with.
Edit : The logical question is, if mitigation is the primary determiner here, why am I not recommending Constitution -- the AT's third Super Stat, and the one that determines energy return from Blocking? A mitigation stat with mitigation talents.
I could probably BS something numeric-looking but the honest answer is that it's boring. Literally all of the Tank ATs thus far have Con as 1SS. Endurance shakes things up while still providing viable choices for mitigation.
What reasons are those? You should list them if you want to make your case. In my tests for On Alert, primary super-intelligence was more effective than endurance. For this archetype you get better energy returns from your energy unlock plus faster recharge times for Unbreakable and Fire All Weapons.
What makes such a compelling case for primary super endurance?
Obviously the difference in stat points is negligible, so what really matters is the spec trees. End seems to have much better spec trees for a tank: +HP, CC resist, and a HOT, while the Int tree has Revitalize (should a tank ever need an energy builder?), Detect Vulnerability, and some interesting stat boosts of questionable value. End Mastery is also way better than Int Mastery.
The difference in cooldowns and Overdrive's energy return will be negligible.
The Invincible AT is intended as a Ranged Tank archetype. Given the relatively narrow specializations of Archetypes, we can assume that the priorities of the AT follow the general "Tank" priorities.
Mission completion.
Survive.
Maintain threat control.
Deal damage.
Mitigate incidental damage on behalf of allies. ("Support.")
4 and 5 are theoretically interchangeable dependent on build, however, the primary cause of mission failure in the game thus far is time-outs, so we can safely assume that damage is a higher native priority for tanking ATs than support.
Intelligence is highly synergistic with damage-dealing; it particularly benefits powers with long cooldowns and high costs. It also benefits high-offense characters by synergizing with energy-return mechanics outside of the innate energy returns (Equilibrium, Energy Builders, and Blocking) -- the innate energy return mechanics work better for defensive characters. The talents in the Intelligence tree are damage- and "hard" (non-threat) control- oriented. Thus, it perfectly suits 4 and by extension 3 on the chart above.
Endurance is moderately synergistic with mitigation. It offers its greatest energy return benefit to characters who will be using their energy builder often; however, it also offers a larger 'battery' to characters who will be gaining energy via other means (such as blocking). Several of the talents in the Endurance tree are mitigation-oriented; of particular note are Hardened (max HP increase from Endurance) and Withstand (2SSes grant Mez resistance, an invaluable quality for tanks the AT otherwise has some difficulty obtaining). In addition, its Mastery specialization offers an energy-return mechanic which is useful for any role.
By 'stat value' alone, Intelligence is slightly better; it indirectly offers better control via threat via greater damage. But given that the argument is in favor of choosing a Primary Super Stat, rather than excluding one or the other from the AT, the most significant consideration I can see is really the talent tree. The Intelligence Mastery is virtually useless for the AT and very few of its talents offer mitigation; it allows Constitution to grant 18 HP per point rather than 15 (less maxhp gain even assuming all-equal stats than the Endurance talent Hardened) and a 12% increase to defense from items. None of its talents offer Mez Resist.
Endurance is the clear winner; the stat value gap is more than overcome by its specializations' far better meeting of higher Role priorities. For a similar, Avenger-role Power Armor Archetype, I would say the opposite, but that is not what we are dealing with.
"Do they speak English in What?"
If you want to say that Endurance specializations give you Withstand and Hardened, just say so. Those are nice tank bonuses. The mes resist is helpful and so is the extra health. Those are four specialization points you can't get with Int tree. But that's the limit of where Endurance does you any good at all. And just like your point that you can get recharge bonuses directly from items, you can also get both those bonuses from items as well.
On the other hand, with INT you get things that can't be achieved from gear. Revitalize to recharge every EB hit or Exploit Vulnerability for defense penetration. You can also get more health and energy from Enlightened and Expertise. Revitalize has interesting defense applications with Unbreakable that are hard to quantify. Using Unbreakable two or three times a minute can more than make up for missing out on several hundred extra health. Plus it would recharge the self-heal as well, which is currently on a timer.
I'd consider Endurance tree's specializations superior for leveling up a dedicated team tank, but Intelligence tree's specialization better for a hybrid or solo build, and more versatile overall. And at end-game, you may have the most survivability with Revitalize anyway. I consider that all wash for the spec trees themselves. The bottom line is that you can do what you want to do with either tree. But if you want to break out of the role more you are better off with INT.
Intelligence Mastery is also better for this archetype than Endurance Mastery. You call it 50 extra stat points 'virtually useless' when in fact it's actually a decent all around bonus. You will get extra self-healing, better crits, higher equilibrium, better ranged damage, better knockback and better knockback resistance. On the other hand, the Endurance Mastery bonus gives you practically nothing. The extra energy generated is low and is of no particularly value to a tank. Neither bonus is game-breaking, but I'll take INT mastery on this archetype every time. At least its an option that I'd use.
And that's just the spec tree stuff. By the raw stats and powers, INT is certainly better. It scales the energy unlock, it scales Concentration, and it increases the recharge time on the self-heal. You can debate which choice is better, but I'd still go with INT unless there's something really compelling that I'm missing. Right now it's crazy to say the Endurance is the 'obvious' choice. It's just a choice between two effective alternatives.
I'd consider Endurance tree's specializations superior for leveling up a dedicated team tank
Excellent.
You call it 50 extra stat points 'virtually useless' when in fact it's actually a decent all around bonus. You will get extra self-healing, better crits, higher equilibrium, better ranged damage, better knockback and better knockback resistance.
Why is this even a point? I'm responding to it out of sheer confusion.
I didn't call 50 extra stat points 'virtually useless,' I called ten points in non-super stats virtually useless as a Mastery (in competition with Protector Mastery). The amounts you gain for any of those things, as you well know, are miniscule. The Endurance mastery allows the AT to recover energy while their toggles are active. I'd probably still take Protector Mastery for a Tank AT but it's certainly viable for some experimentation; the ICD is a little long but you might be able to manage some decent constant energy return with all the available mechanics. I mean, I kind of assume anyone would take Protector Ma...
...but I'll take INT mastery on this archetype every time.
...why, apparently, yes, we do speak English in "what."
Anyway, you really clinched this at the top. We're not choosing between Intelligence and Endurance; both are still Super Stats. We're choosing between the END tree and the INT tree for a dedicated tank Archetype, and literally everyone agrees END tree is better for tanks.
Edit : And hey, I totally get that you want a hybrid rdps Power Armor build but -- you can do that freeform. ATs are ponies with a number of tricks that is greater than zero (ideally) but less than two. (And if this was going to be a super-awesome-mega-versatile AT, it'd be in Hybrid Role and probably have, ugh, Con primary again for the optional threat talent.) We can work out an rpds Power Armor AT for Silvers later; maybe call it The Inebriated?
Edit : And hey, I totally get that you want a hybrid rdps Power Armor build but -- you can do that freeform.
You're making a poor assumption there. I don't care at all about making a hybrid for the archetype. I'm simply responding to your post from the last page of this thread where you say "Please switch the Primary SS to Endurance. It works ever so much better for the AT for so many reasons."
I was curious whether there was something significant that I missed, but that's not the case so far. I've done a better job explaining the benefits of Endurance than you have and I'm not even trying to make that case for it as the primary superstat. I've clearly outlined that there are pluses and minuses to either choice. But overall INT seems like it's a fine way to go for the reasons I outlined above.
and literally everyone agrees END tree is better for tanks.
Try reading my post again up above. As I said, I'm not convinced that you're better off with a few hundred extra health than you would be cycling Unbreakable more often. Saying that 'literally' everyone agrees is pretty ridiculous.
Not to mention that you seem to be making the assumption that this archetype must be made the best tank possible without consideration to anything else. The Invincible description includes: "And with its arsenals of guns, lasers, and missiles, you can dish out as much as you can take." That suggests that making the absolute best tank possible is probably not the end goal of this archetype. As I said above, you get more versatility and more offensive punch with Intelligence. That may be exactly what the developers are going for here.
Considering this AT is so far seemingly the most "polished" out of ALL the ATs i've seen thus far i don't think it's that bad off. I agree though todd they should just add in a baseline toggle for all ATs just as a double perk at some level you get this + this and bam problem solved right there.
I was totally teasing you. [post=2093613]G_Crush announced the added power for all ATs about two hours before you posted.[/post]
Saying that 'literally' everyone agrees is pretty ridiculous.
...No, literally everyone who's argued an opinion has said the same thing. You said that you considered Endurance a better tanking spec, which seems perfectly sane and rational; your objection is that you think Intelligence gives the AT more versatility, which is also sane but I believe it to be irrelevant. Don't be a weasel. You'll end up trying to defend the claim that Intelligence is the best tanking stat and it will look ridiculous (unless there's an EB with Crip C I'm forgetting about. Even then it would be... difficult).
Not to mention that you seem to be making the assumption that this archetype must be made the best tank possible without consideration to anything else.
Why on earth would you believe that? I even said otherwise in a previous post. CON is also one of its Super Stats, and a much superior mitigation stat even to END.
I don't care at all about making a hybrid for the archetype. ... I've clearly outlined that there are pluses and minuses to either choice. But overall INT seems like it's a fine way to go for the reasons I outlined above.
Intelligence tree's specialization better for a hybrid or solo build, and more versatile overall.
...Do you... not remember things you say, from post to post? It would explain much of my confusion. The only other explanation I can think of is that you're trolling, but you don't really seem the type.
If variety is worth anything, that recommends Int slightly over End (but no more Dex and Con Primaries for a while please!)
Eh, variety's nice but role-appropriateness is better. I'd rather they updated Impulse to Int-primary, incidentally, which would even those numbers right back out.
...No, literally everyone who's argued an opinion has said the same thing. You said that you considered Endurance a better tanking spec, which seems perfectly sane and rational; your objection is that you think Intelligence gives the AT more versatility, which is also sane but I believe it to be irrelevant. Don't be a weasel. You'll end up trying to defend the claim that Intelligence is the best tanking stat and it will look ridiculous (unless there's an EB with Crip C I'm forgetting about. Even then it would be... difficult).
What I said was that I'd expected Endurance tree's specializations superior for leveling up a dedicated team tank. I also specifically said that at end-game, you may have the most survivability with Revitalize anyway. That's a far cry from saying that END is 'better for tanks.'
I expect that it is not particularly common for a player to want to level up as a dedicated team tank. I expect that it is relatively common for a player to want to level up as a more generally effective build with better damage dealing capacity. I also expect that this is what the developers are going for with this build.
The main thing here is that I'm not making any kinds of crazy claims to have to defend. I think that the developers chose good stats for this archetype. Your point that Endurance is clearlybetter doesnt really hold up. If anything you should be arguing that the primary superstat should be Constitution, since that's unarguably the best survivability stat of the three. The fact that you keep talking about how this is a tanking archetype and you're not arguing for super CON suggests that dedicated tanking and survivability isn't even your main concern. So why should the developers change things around for survivability and tanking when you're not even proposing the best arrangement of the three stats for that purpose?
I would put forth that Intelligence is in terms of Energy Management is better. INT give energy cost reductions. Those reductions, mathematically speaking, has the effect of increasing the Energy Pool (aka Max Energy). Any Endurance gear you add is multiplied by the same amount. In addition, INT as the Primary SS makes energy generation all that much more effect as well. You don't have to fill a vastly increased energy pool that Endurance as a Primary SS would do.
What I said was that I'd expected Endurance tree's specializations superior for leveling up a dedicated team tank. I also specifically said that at end-game, you may have the most survivability with Revitalize anyway.
Ah, fair enough.
...Wait, you are arguing INT might be providing better mitigation? Hm.
I expect that it is not particularly common for a player to want to level up as a dedicated team tank.
Pre On-Alert, you would have been correct.
The main thing here is that I'm not making any kinds of crazy claims to have to defend.
Well, other than Int possibly providing better mitigation than maxhp, mez control, and the other mitigation talents in End at end-game via a single talent. :rolleyes: I might do some number-crunching in a bit if for no other reason than that I sincerely hope you are mistaken. As much as you're throwing around hyperbole, you really haven't made a terribly strong case for Intelligence; your argument essentially consists of, "It's better for hybrids, and 3% recharge reduction on EB use." You've made a number of references to how good this argument is, but haven't really shored it up in any way. And now "Endurance is a better fit for a tanking class" is a wild claim?
Hopefully that's not true, wouldn't you say? Otherwise the two stats' trees pretty clearly need to be rebalanced. Besides, as you've mentioned, you can get CDR from gear.
So let me instead actually make a wild claim, which is that Endurance is better for hybrids.
stuff
I already mentioned why I'm arguing for the midline talent of the tree. Con is boring; Int is insufficient. Endurance feels better -- not only to me but to a number of other posters in the thread. I played the AT up through the early levels (12? 14? something like that) and then debugger-pranced my way through the rest of content. I assume you have as well. It feels a little fragile for a dedicated tank -- the new Block Enhancer advantage really helped, but now that's getting pushed much further back in levels as well... to make room for a damage-increasing toggle, oddly enough.
But still more offense is needed to 'hybridize' this AT? I'm skeptical. I think what is going to benefit it most is additional energy. I don't have the numbers in front of me -- do you happen to? Let's say that a character ends up with some nice easy numbers -- 200 points in 1SS and 150 in each of 2SSes, How much additional cost discount are they going to get from Intelligence with that 50 point difference?
Comparatively, how much additional energy will Kickback be granting them each time they tap their EB and toggle? If they take END mastery, how much will they be getting every 3s in combat, assuming they maintain aggro?
Now, I'll grant, Detect Vulnerability offensively trumps anything they can get out of the END tree; they'll likely have a slightly higher raw Offense score with END (the 1 point more in Gear Utilization is effectively doubled, offensively, from Best Defense, and Power Overhwelming, if they chose it, is better than the Int equivalent -- although I doubt someone would), but it will be pretty far into diminishing returns at that point. But is that really worth all the other losses? After all, this is a tank AT -- which means something different here than when I've said it previously. They have, theoretically, all the time in the world while in solo play (if their defenses hold up). All they need to do is keep attacking.
And in team play, mitigation still trumps all. Do you really believe Intelligence offers better mitigation options than Endurance, even end-game? Can you tell me, at least, which one will let them run Reconstruction Circuits longer?
I would put forth that Intelligence is in terms of Energy Management is better. INT give energy cost reductions. Those reductions, mathematically speaking, has the effect of increasing the Energy Pool (aka Max Energy). Any Endurance gear you add is multiplied by the same amount. In addition, INT as the Primary SS makes energy generation all that much more effect as well. You don't have to fill a vastly increased energy pool that Endurance as a Primary SS would do.
End is vastly better than Int for energy management purposes. Consider for a moment someone with 5 End and 5 Int. Tactical Missiles uses 65 energy for a full charge, and my Energy Builder gives me 16% energy on the first hit, 7.8% on each subsequent hit. A full bar of energy is thus worth 105/65 = 1.61 full charges of Tactical Missiles, and it will take 7 hits of my energy builder to build enough energy for a full charge. (Those are the key stats, 1.61 full charges, 7 EB hits).
Now, add 100 pts of Int. Tactical Missiles now costs 54 energy for a full charge. A full bar of energy is worth 1.94 full charges, and it will take 6 hits of my EB to get a full charge.
Take away 100 pts of Int and add 100 pts of End: Tactical Missiles still costs 65 energy, but my bar is 205, so I can get 3.15 full charges, and it takes just 3 hits of my EB to get the next full charge.
To top this all off, Int has diminishing returns, End does not, and I can get massive cost discounts from gear as well, while the +Energy gear seems really weak by comparison.
The conclusion is that End is, as I said, vastly better than Int for pure Energy management, as it should be. Int also gives cooldown reduction and stealth sight, so it would be totally unbalanced if it was better than End for energy as well!
EDIT: It's actually double diminishing returns from Int once you get past 110 Int, as the % cost discount per point of Int goes down, plus the value of a % increase goes down due to "Cryptic Math".
Yeah, hm. I'm actually very interested in the assertion that INT specs can provide better end-game mitigation than END, and a few of the other claims here. I must do science to these. Don't have time just now -- tonight or tomorrow.
... Do you really believe Intelligence offers better mitigation options than Endurance, even end-game? Can you tell me, at least, which one will let them run Reconstruction Circuits longer?
I never said INT offers better mitigation than anything at all. I've simply asked you to prove your point that Endurance is the clear choice for the best superstat. I even did my best to make your case for you and suggest what makes Endurance a good choice. Unfortunately you're not coming up with anything that makes Endurance a clear choice over Intelligence or Constitution. So far you've put in a ton of effort at trying to prove me wrong in this thread. You'd be better off not trying to show me up, and simply making the best case possible right to the developers.
Interestingly, I just tested out the Invincible and I got a much better boost from Expertise than I expected. I got about 650 health from it, versus the 1000 or so you might get from Hardened. That weakens what I thought was a bigger advantage for taking Endurance. But again, it seemed a bit off for someone to keep harping about tanking and mitigation and not make their argument that Constitution should be the best stat. That's an argument that would at least make more sense. This is a tank archetype, and being the toughest you can be would be an acceptable way to go. Intelligence also makes perfect sense since it matches best stat wise and offers the most versatility. Endurance makes the least sense for this build when you come right down to it. It has less mitigation than CON, less offense and synergy than INT, and the absolute worst mastery skill.
I never said INT offers better mitigation than anything at all. I've simply asked you to prove your point that Endurance is the clear choice for the best superstat. I even did my best to make your case for you and suggest what makes Endurance a good choice. Unfortunately you're not coming up with anything that makes Endurance a clear choice over Intelligence or Constitution. So far you've put in a ton of effort at trying to prove me wrong in this thread. You'd be better off not trying to show me up, and simply making the best case possible right to the developers.
Interestingly, I just tested out the Invincible and I got a much better boost from Expertise than I expected. I got about 650 health from it, versus the 1000 or so you might get from Hardened. That weakens what I thought was a bigger advantage for taking Endurance. But again, it seemed a bit off for someone to keep harping about tanking and mitigation and not make their argument that Constitution should be the best stat. That's an argument that would at least make more sense. This is a tank archetype, and being the toughest you can be would be an acceptable way to go. Intelligence also makes perfect sense since it matches best stat wise and offers the most versatility. Endurance makes the least sense for this build when you come right down to it. It has less mitigation than CON, less offense and synergy than INT, and the absolute worst mastery skill.
Just curious why you think the mastery skill is worthless for a tank mastery pulse? consider it gives energy back on getting hit. I don't find protector mastery that useful considering i NEVER get that low of hp as a tank and even if i did i usually never stay there for long. Guardian mastery...is not that much better.
The other thing is that you also are forgetting outburst and how that SSing end with kick back gives you a constant stream of energy that keeps you at the peak of the energy bar. I have never needed to stack shoulder launcher + mini gun in order to accomplish this so i am somewhat perplexed by your statement. I personally felt it was more of a matter of preference since there is no BEST SS for PA but i do believe that the coin toss is the choice between SS INT and SS END each with their own pros and cons. The biggest reason i prefer to go with SS END is that i can pick up SS CON and SS EGO as my secondaries since i get so much cost discount and cooldown reduction from gear i find the benefits of INT not as strong as when i was leveling my character.
Essentially
Kickback + concentration + overdrive = constant outburst buff + 3% energy back from being attacked = +15% damage and healing constantly
Yeah, hm. I'm actually very interested in the assertion that INT specs can provide better end-game mitigation than END, and a few of the other claims here. I must do science to these. Don't have time just now -- tonight or tomorrow.
Hrm. Due to my misremembering now energy builder works (as percentage of max Energy). In Isolation End as a Primary SS is better at the high end. I've not worth through the new higher characteristic levels yet.
But I still will contend that INT as a Primary SS for the Invincible is better. INT Spec gives Expertise which Secondary SS effects which means more Energy and Health primarily. Detect Vulnerability means more damage especially for an AT in Tank role. Revitalize means cool downs are shorter
But it ultimately boils down to personal preference. Both INT and END are Primary SS have their advantages. With INT and END as Super Stats and Concentration and Overdrive, PA/The Invincible won't be worrying about Energy that much at all.
And just to give my math conclusions. The best Energy Reduction with INT as Pri SS and Silver Champions gear is around 95% recution (25 -> 13). So that means an effect energy poll of 170 vs the 300+ with END as a Primary SS.
Just curious why you think the mastery skill is worthless for a tank mastery pulse? consider it gives energy back on getting hit. I don't find protector mastery that useful considering i NEVER get that low of hp as a tank and even if i did i usually never stay there for long. Guardian mastery...is not that much better.
The other thing is that you also are forgetting outburst and how that SSing end with kick back gives you a constant stream of energy that keeps you at the peak of the energy bar. I have never needed to stack shoulder launcher + mini gun in order to accomplish this so i am somewhat perplexed by your statement. I personally felt it was more of a matter of preference since there is no BEST SS for PA but i do believe that the coin toss is the choice between SS INT and SS END each with their own pros and cons. The biggest reason i prefer to go with SS END is that i can pick up SS CON and SS EGO as my secondaries since i get so much cost discount and cooldown reduction from gear i find the benefits of INT not as strong as when i was leveling my character.
Essentially
Kickback + concentration + overdrive = constant outburst buff + 3% energy back from being attacked = +15% damage and healing constantly
Thoughts?
When I tested the Endurance Mastery's energy return I found it ineffective. Its a low amount of energy anyway. And since you're being attacked and you're in tank role, you can always block for a second and get that energy for nothing. It's of very low value for the build.
I also tested Kickback + Wrist Bolter + Automated Assault. The expectation was that you could get constant free energy and never run out no matter how many toggles you used. This produced better DPS when I used Mini Gun, Shoulder Cannon, and Micro Munitions with R3 Wrist Bolters. The DPS wasn't nearly as high without being able to stack both shoulder slots though. In the end Mini Gun, Micro Munitions, and Power Gauntlet combined with Avenger Mastery tested the best, unless I double stacked the shoulder slot. That doesnt seem to have changed much on Test Server, and now you can't doublestack the shoulder.
The scenario you propose has some merit for free energy, but is it really better than your other options? If you want to get energy when you're hit, go with Constitution and take Fuel My Fire. That's 6% free energy every hit. Plus you can take the other CON tree specs for more health and resistance to mez plus healing over time, and take CON mastery for the best defensive option of the three superstats.
The bottom line is that the three stats for The Invincible work well already. As you said, you can make a case for either INT or END as the primary. But INT has a big edge in that it's directly applied to the energy unlocks. The extra energy helps, plus its a good idea to match the main stat to the build. I wouldnt want players telling the developers that they are stupid for not giving us the stat that matches The Invincible's two energy powers. So far, every argument I've read for making END primary can be applied to CON as well. And CON has actually been the better choice for the arguments being made for END.
But I still will contend that INT as a Primary SS for the Invincible is better. INT Spec gives Expertise which Secondary SS effects which means more Energy and Health primarily. Detect Vulnerability means more damage especially for an AT in Tank role. Revitalize means cool downs are shorter.
I'd be sad to lose Detect Vulnerability, but I had enough trouble tanking with the Invincible vs any of my FFer tanks that I'd rather have better defensive options.
Interestingly, I just tested out the Invincible and I got a much better boost from Expertise than I expected. I got about 650 health from it, versus the 1000 or so you might get from Hardened.
The numbers on Expertise and Hardened are perfectly linear; 3 extra HP per point of CON vs 4 HP per point of Endurance. You don't need to test that. I'm a little surprised you had ~217 CON, though; this seems high on a 2SS.
So far, every argument I've read for making END primary can be applied to CON as well. And CON has actually been the better choice for the arguments being made for END.
Yeah, but there's also an argument against making CON specifically the Super Stat, which does not apply to END.
Edit : And most of my argument for END is mitigation-centric. That doesn't mean all of the arguments proposed are.
Comments
It's gotta be Deathwish IX.
But, then... I'm a nerd with a homage. ob
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBbnT-cIDVM
Also now I keep listening to the Swat Kats theme. Thanks, Yuri. Thanks a lot.
Edit: HOW DID I END UP HERE? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRli1rRMoSQ
Well, not everyone can be Iron Man. Someone has to be War Machine.
Oh! Wait? I'm wrong. Almost everyone in CO is Iron Man now that Avengers came out. But I like War Machine better.
Come on now. Who rescued Iron Man from smash bashing into the big building? Your big green meany buddy, that's who!
Now has Overdrive instead of Molecular Self Assembly.
That's a really disappointing change. This archetype is not too hot right now. It needs to have attacks removed and utility powers added. I'm still sticking with this recommendation as workable. This isn't even ideal, but it's all in the tech tree. I don't know how you could argue with it.
Power Set
Why the choice between Bionic Shielding and Energy shield? One a block, ones a heal. I would think the shield should be Energy shield and a choice between Unbreakable and Bionic Shielding.
A choice for Bionic Shielding would be fine with Unbreakable too. The main thing would be to get a self heal in somewhere. I would go with Bionic and Unbreakable vs anything with Energy Shield.
I would suggest a choice between Force Shield or Energy Shield, (energy assist or more tankiness) and Bionic (BS) or Unbreakable. Unbreakable isn't a heal, but in team with a healer it teaches another aspect of the game. The other option could be BS or Support Drones(SD). SD fits the tech theme for PA.
Yea. It seems that there is a fixed rule that every AT must pick up a block at 14. So, recommand a heal at lvl 14 is ... well, unless they're going to make the first execption.
Could we please get the OP edited and kept up to date with the current plan for the release version of the AT? It would seem relevant for this thread and the discussion in it.
They can give the Laser Knight advantage to Retaliation and then give Energy Shield some kind of ranged version of Laser Knight or something.
They already did. (Sort of, since it's PA only.)
Plasma Beam emits from hands, immediately skewing 90 degrees from current facing and burning the daylights out of the pavement, but will NOT hit selected target.
Nothing in the tooltip or power description seems to shed light on this malfunction. Is it WAI or am I just using it wrong?
The visuals are bugged, but the beam actually does damage things in front of you.
So long as you're at the same elevation.
Yes, that still needs fixing too. :rolleyes:
-self heal check
-energy shield fixed check
-new energy unlock - check
other than the tweaks to certain options i think we should be nearly set on the AT
still a bit iffy on the SSs but hey personal preference does not = AT worthy
Concentration. Now that we have a ranged-specific toggle that works great with PA, it feels a bit eh to not use it - especially with defensive passive which means you don't get hit by diminishing returns on damage bonuses. Having the form would help maintain aggro too (through improved damage). Having INT as prime SS means you even have the right stat for the form toggle.
I'm not certain where to put it. I'd like it as a pick between Fire All Weapons and Concentration, but level 40 seems a bit late for form. Instead it could perhaps be put as an pick between Overdrive and Concentration (even though I'd really like to have both as an option).
And of course the self-heal could be made more, you know, useful.
If only they would consider adding another power choice to the archetype....
What reasons are those? You should list them if you want to make your case. In my tests for On Alert, primary super-intelligence was more effective than endurance. For this archetype you get better energy returns from your energy unlock plus faster recharge times for Unbreakable and Fire All Weapons.
What makes such a compelling case for primary super endurance?
Kickback in END tree
You know ... Wrist Bolter + Automated Assault + Kickback = hehehehehe~~~
Wait, you say the energy builder isn't Wrist Bolter? .... well, then I have no idea .... :P
Yeah, that's not possible for the Invincible. Next!
Even if it was possible, that combo is over-valued now. The only way to make that combo worthwhile in my testing was to stack both Mini Gun and Shoulder Launcher at the same time. Otherwise you were better off just using your energy builder when necessary. You can't use multiple shoulder toggles now, and energy is much easier to come by with Concentration, so there is much less value in Kickback for everyone.
The Invincible AT is intended as a Ranged Tank archetype. Given the relatively narrow specializations of Archetypes, we can assume that the priorities of the AT follow the general "Tank" priorities.
4 and 5 are theoretically interchangeable dependent on build, however, the primary cause of mission failure in the game thus far is time-outs, so we can safely assume that damage is a higher native priority for tanking ATs than support.
Intelligence is highly synergistic with damage-dealing; it particularly benefits powers with long cooldowns and high costs. It also benefits high-offense characters by synergizing with energy-return mechanics outside of the innate energy returns (Equilibrium, Energy Builders, and Blocking) -- the innate energy return mechanics work better for defensive characters. The talents in the Intelligence tree are damage- and "hard" (non-threat) control- oriented. Thus, it perfectly suits 4 and by extension 3 on the chart above.
Endurance is moderately synergistic with mitigation. It offers its greatest energy return benefit to characters who will be using their energy builder often; however, it also offers a larger 'battery' to characters who will be gaining energy via other means (such as blocking). Several of the talents in the Endurance tree are mitigation-oriented; of particular note are Hardened (max HP increase from Endurance) and Withstand (2SSes grant Mez resistance, an invaluable quality for tanks the AT otherwise has some difficulty obtaining). In addition, its Mastery specialization offers an energy-return mechanic which is useful for any role.
By 'stat value' alone, Intelligence is slightly better; it indirectly offers better control via threat via greater damage. But given that the argument is in favor of choosing a Primary Super Stat, rather than excluding one or the other from the AT, the most significant consideration I can see is really the talent tree. The Intelligence Mastery is virtually useless for the AT and very few of its talents offer mitigation; it allows Constitution to grant 18 HP per point rather than 15 (less maxhp gain even assuming all-equal stats than the Endurance talent Hardened) and a 12% increase to defense from items. None of its talents offer Mez Resist.
Endurance is the clear winner; the stat value gap is more than overcome by its specializations' far better meeting of higher Role priorities. For a similar, Avenger-role Power Armor Archetype, I would say the opposite, but that is not what we are dealing with.
Edit : The logical question is, if mitigation is the primary determiner here, why am I not recommending Constitution -- the AT's third Super Stat, and the one that determines energy return from Blocking? A mitigation stat with mitigation talents.
I could probably BS something numeric-looking but the honest answer is that it's boring. Literally all of the Tank ATs thus far have Con as 1SS. Endurance shakes things up while still providing viable choices for mitigation.
Obviously the difference in stat points is negligible, so what really matters is the spec trees. End seems to have much better spec trees for a tank: +HP, CC resist, and a HOT, while the Int tree has Revitalize (should a tank ever need an energy builder?), Detect Vulnerability, and some interesting stat boosts of questionable value. End Mastery is also way better than Int Mastery.
The difference in cooldowns and Overdrive's energy return will be negligible.
"Do they speak English in What?"
If you want to say that Endurance specializations give you Withstand and Hardened, just say so. Those are nice tank bonuses. The mes resist is helpful and so is the extra health. Those are four specialization points you can't get with Int tree. But that's the limit of where Endurance does you any good at all. And just like your point that you can get recharge bonuses directly from items, you can also get both those bonuses from items as well.
On the other hand, with INT you get things that can't be achieved from gear. Revitalize to recharge every EB hit or Exploit Vulnerability for defense penetration. You can also get more health and energy from Enlightened and Expertise. Revitalize has interesting defense applications with Unbreakable that are hard to quantify. Using Unbreakable two or three times a minute can more than make up for missing out on several hundred extra health. Plus it would recharge the self-heal as well, which is currently on a timer.
I'd consider Endurance tree's specializations superior for leveling up a dedicated team tank, but Intelligence tree's specialization better for a hybrid or solo build, and more versatile overall. And at end-game, you may have the most survivability with Revitalize anyway. I consider that all wash for the spec trees themselves. The bottom line is that you can do what you want to do with either tree. But if you want to break out of the role more you are better off with INT.
Intelligence Mastery is also better for this archetype than Endurance Mastery. You call it 50 extra stat points 'virtually useless' when in fact it's actually a decent all around bonus. You will get extra self-healing, better crits, higher equilibrium, better ranged damage, better knockback and better knockback resistance. On the other hand, the Endurance Mastery bonus gives you practically nothing. The extra energy generated is low and is of no particularly value to a tank. Neither bonus is game-breaking, but I'll take INT mastery on this archetype every time. At least its an option that I'd use.
And that's just the spec tree stuff. By the raw stats and powers, INT is certainly better. It scales the energy unlock, it scales Concentration, and it increases the recharge time on the self-heal. You can debate which choice is better, but I'd still go with INT unless there's something really compelling that I'm missing. Right now it's crazy to say the Endurance is the 'obvious' choice. It's just a choice between two effective alternatives.
Excellent.
Why is this even a point? I'm responding to it out of sheer confusion.
I didn't call 50 extra stat points 'virtually useless,' I called ten points in non-super stats virtually useless as a Mastery (in competition with Protector Mastery). The amounts you gain for any of those things, as you well know, are miniscule. The Endurance mastery allows the AT to recover energy while their toggles are active. I'd probably still take Protector Mastery for a Tank AT but it's certainly viable for some experimentation; the ICD is a little long but you might be able to manage some decent constant energy return with all the available mechanics. I mean, I kind of assume anyone would take Protector Ma...
...why, apparently, yes, we do speak English in "what."
Anyway, you really clinched this at the top. We're not choosing between Intelligence and Endurance; both are still Super Stats. We're choosing between the END tree and the INT tree for a dedicated tank Archetype, and literally everyone agrees END tree is better for tanks.
Edit : And hey, I totally get that you want a hybrid rdps Power Armor build but -- you can do that freeform. ATs are ponies with a number of tricks that is greater than zero (ideally) but less than two. (And if this was going to be a super-awesome-mega-versatile AT, it'd be in Hybrid Role and probably have, ugh, Con primary again for the optional threat talent.) We can work out an rpds Power Armor AT for Silvers later; maybe call it The Inebriated?
You're making a poor assumption there. I don't care at all about making a hybrid for the archetype. I'm simply responding to your post from the last page of this thread where you say "Please switch the Primary SS to Endurance. It works ever so much better for the AT for so many reasons."
I was curious whether there was something significant that I missed, but that's not the case so far. I've done a better job explaining the benefits of Endurance than you have and I'm not even trying to make that case for it as the primary superstat. I've clearly outlined that there are pluses and minuses to either choice. But overall INT seems like it's a fine way to go for the reasons I outlined above.
Try reading my post again up above. As I said, I'm not convinced that you're better off with a few hundred extra health than you would be cycling Unbreakable more often. Saying that 'literally' everyone agrees is pretty ridiculous.
Not to mention that you seem to be making the assumption that this archetype must be made the best tank possible without consideration to anything else. The Invincible description includes: "And with its arsenals of guns, lasers, and missiles, you can dish out as much as you can take." That suggests that making the absolute best tank possible is probably not the end goal of this archetype. As I said above, you get more versatility and more offensive punch with Intelligence. That may be exactly what the developers are going for here.
I was totally teasing you. [post=2093613]G_Crush announced the added power for all ATs about two hours before you posted.[/post]
dex 5
con 4
ego 3
end 3
str 2
rec 2
pre 2
int 2
If variety is worth anything, that recommends Int slightly over End (but no more Dex and Con Primaries for a while please!)
...No, literally everyone who's argued an opinion has said the same thing. You said that you considered Endurance a better tanking spec, which seems perfectly sane and rational; your objection is that you think Intelligence gives the AT more versatility, which is also sane but I believe it to be irrelevant. Don't be a weasel. You'll end up trying to defend the claim that Intelligence is the best tanking stat and it will look ridiculous (unless there's an EB with Crip C I'm forgetting about. Even then it would be... difficult).
Why on earth would you believe that? I even said otherwise in a previous post. CON is also one of its Super Stats, and a much superior mitigation stat even to END.
...Do you... not remember things you say, from post to post? It would explain much of my confusion. The only other explanation I can think of is that you're trolling, but you don't really seem the type.
Edit:
Eh, variety's nice but role-appropriateness is better. I'd rather they updated Impulse to Int-primary, incidentally, which would even those numbers right back out.
What I said was that I'd expected Endurance tree's specializations superior for leveling up a dedicated team tank. I also specifically said that at end-game, you may have the most survivability with Revitalize anyway. That's a far cry from saying that END is 'better for tanks.'
I expect that it is not particularly common for a player to want to level up as a dedicated team tank. I expect that it is relatively common for a player to want to level up as a more generally effective build with better damage dealing capacity. I also expect that this is what the developers are going for with this build.
The main thing here is that I'm not making any kinds of crazy claims to have to defend. I think that the developers chose good stats for this archetype. Your point that Endurance is clearlybetter doesnt really hold up. If anything you should be arguing that the primary superstat should be Constitution, since that's unarguably the best survivability stat of the three. The fact that you keep talking about how this is a tanking archetype and you're not arguing for super CON suggests that dedicated tanking and survivability isn't even your main concern. So why should the developers change things around for survivability and tanking when you're not even proposing the best arrangement of the three stats for that purpose?
Ah, fair enough.
...Wait, you are arguing INT might be providing better mitigation? Hm.
Pre On-Alert, you would have been correct.
Well, other than Int possibly providing better mitigation than maxhp, mez control, and the other mitigation talents in End at end-game via a single talent. :rolleyes: I might do some number-crunching in a bit if for no other reason than that I sincerely hope you are mistaken. As much as you're throwing around hyperbole, you really haven't made a terribly strong case for Intelligence; your argument essentially consists of, "It's better for hybrids, and 3% recharge reduction on EB use." You've made a number of references to how good this argument is, but haven't really shored it up in any way. And now "Endurance is a better fit for a tanking class" is a wild claim?
Hopefully that's not true, wouldn't you say? Otherwise the two stats' trees pretty clearly need to be rebalanced. Besides, as you've mentioned, you can get CDR from gear.
So let me instead actually make a wild claim, which is that Endurance is better for hybrids.
I already mentioned why I'm arguing for the midline talent of the tree. Con is boring; Int is insufficient. Endurance feels better -- not only to me but to a number of other posters in the thread. I played the AT up through the early levels (12? 14? something like that) and then debugger-pranced my way through the rest of content. I assume you have as well. It feels a little fragile for a dedicated tank -- the new Block Enhancer advantage really helped, but now that's getting pushed much further back in levels as well... to make room for a damage-increasing toggle, oddly enough.
But still more offense is needed to 'hybridize' this AT? I'm skeptical. I think what is going to benefit it most is additional energy. I don't have the numbers in front of me -- do you happen to? Let's say that a character ends up with some nice easy numbers -- 200 points in 1SS and 150 in each of 2SSes, How much additional cost discount are they going to get from Intelligence with that 50 point difference?
Comparatively, how much additional energy will Kickback be granting them each time they tap their EB and toggle? If they take END mastery, how much will they be getting every 3s in combat, assuming they maintain aggro?
Now, I'll grant, Detect Vulnerability offensively trumps anything they can get out of the END tree; they'll likely have a slightly higher raw Offense score with END (the 1 point more in Gear Utilization is effectively doubled, offensively, from Best Defense, and Power Overhwelming, if they chose it, is better than the Int equivalent -- although I doubt someone would), but it will be pretty far into diminishing returns at that point. But is that really worth all the other losses? After all, this is a tank AT -- which means something different here than when I've said it previously. They have, theoretically, all the time in the world while in solo play (if their defenses hold up). All they need to do is keep attacking.
And in team play, mitigation still trumps all. Do you really believe Intelligence offers better mitigation options than Endurance, even end-game? Can you tell me, at least, which one will let them run Reconstruction Circuits longer?
End is vastly better than Int for energy management purposes. Consider for a moment someone with 5 End and 5 Int. Tactical Missiles uses 65 energy for a full charge, and my Energy Builder gives me 16% energy on the first hit, 7.8% on each subsequent hit. A full bar of energy is thus worth 105/65 = 1.61 full charges of Tactical Missiles, and it will take 7 hits of my energy builder to build enough energy for a full charge. (Those are the key stats, 1.61 full charges, 7 EB hits).
Now, add 100 pts of Int. Tactical Missiles now costs 54 energy for a full charge. A full bar of energy is worth 1.94 full charges, and it will take 6 hits of my EB to get a full charge.
Take away 100 pts of Int and add 100 pts of End: Tactical Missiles still costs 65 energy, but my bar is 205, so I can get 3.15 full charges, and it takes just 3 hits of my EB to get the next full charge.
To top this all off, Int has diminishing returns, End does not, and I can get massive cost discounts from gear as well, while the +Energy gear seems really weak by comparison.
The conclusion is that End is, as I said, vastly better than Int for pure Energy management, as it should be. Int also gives cooldown reduction and stealth sight, so it would be totally unbalanced if it was better than End for energy as well!
EDIT: It's actually double diminishing returns from Int once you get past 110 Int, as the % cost discount per point of Int goes down, plus the value of a % increase goes down due to "Cryptic Math".
I never said INT offers better mitigation than anything at all. I've simply asked you to prove your point that Endurance is the clear choice for the best superstat. I even did my best to make your case for you and suggest what makes Endurance a good choice. Unfortunately you're not coming up with anything that makes Endurance a clear choice over Intelligence or Constitution. So far you've put in a ton of effort at trying to prove me wrong in this thread. You'd be better off not trying to show me up, and simply making the best case possible right to the developers.
Interestingly, I just tested out the Invincible and I got a much better boost from Expertise than I expected. I got about 650 health from it, versus the 1000 or so you might get from Hardened. That weakens what I thought was a bigger advantage for taking Endurance. But again, it seemed a bit off for someone to keep harping about tanking and mitigation and not make their argument that Constitution should be the best stat. That's an argument that would at least make more sense. This is a tank archetype, and being the toughest you can be would be an acceptable way to go. Intelligence also makes perfect sense since it matches best stat wise and offers the most versatility. Endurance makes the least sense for this build when you come right down to it. It has less mitigation than CON, less offense and synergy than INT, and the absolute worst mastery skill.
Just curious why you think the mastery skill is worthless for a tank mastery pulse? consider it gives energy back on getting hit. I don't find protector mastery that useful considering i NEVER get that low of hp as a tank and even if i did i usually never stay there for long. Guardian mastery...is not that much better.
The other thing is that you also are forgetting outburst and how that SSing end with kick back gives you a constant stream of energy that keeps you at the peak of the energy bar. I have never needed to stack shoulder launcher + mini gun in order to accomplish this so i am somewhat perplexed by your statement. I personally felt it was more of a matter of preference since there is no BEST SS for PA but i do believe that the coin toss is the choice between SS INT and SS END each with their own pros and cons. The biggest reason i prefer to go with SS END is that i can pick up SS CON and SS EGO as my secondaries since i get so much cost discount and cooldown reduction from gear i find the benefits of INT not as strong as when i was leveling my character.
Essentially
Kickback + concentration + overdrive = constant outburst buff + 3% energy back from being attacked = +15% damage and healing constantly
Thoughts?
Hrm. Due to my misremembering now energy builder works (as percentage of max Energy). In Isolation End as a Primary SS is better at the high end. I've not worth through the new higher characteristic levels yet.
But I still will contend that INT as a Primary SS for the Invincible is better. INT Spec gives Expertise which Secondary SS effects which means more Energy and Health primarily. Detect Vulnerability means more damage especially for an AT in Tank role. Revitalize means cool downs are shorter
But it ultimately boils down to personal preference. Both INT and END are Primary SS have their advantages. With INT and END as Super Stats and Concentration and Overdrive, PA/The Invincible won't be worrying about Energy that much at all.
And just to give my math conclusions. The best Energy Reduction with INT as Pri SS and Silver Champions gear is around 95% recution (25 -> 13). So that means an effect energy poll of 170 vs the 300+ with END as a Primary SS.
When I tested the Endurance Mastery's energy return I found it ineffective. Its a low amount of energy anyway. And since you're being attacked and you're in tank role, you can always block for a second and get that energy for nothing. It's of very low value for the build.
I also tested Kickback + Wrist Bolter + Automated Assault. The expectation was that you could get constant free energy and never run out no matter how many toggles you used. This produced better DPS when I used Mini Gun, Shoulder Cannon, and Micro Munitions with R3 Wrist Bolters. The DPS wasn't nearly as high without being able to stack both shoulder slots though. In the end Mini Gun, Micro Munitions, and Power Gauntlet combined with Avenger Mastery tested the best, unless I double stacked the shoulder slot. That doesnt seem to have changed much on Test Server, and now you can't doublestack the shoulder.
The scenario you propose has some merit for free energy, but is it really better than your other options? If you want to get energy when you're hit, go with Constitution and take Fuel My Fire. That's 6% free energy every hit. Plus you can take the other CON tree specs for more health and resistance to mez plus healing over time, and take CON mastery for the best defensive option of the three superstats.
The bottom line is that the three stats for The Invincible work well already. As you said, you can make a case for either INT or END as the primary. But INT has a big edge in that it's directly applied to the energy unlocks. The extra energy helps, plus its a good idea to match the main stat to the build. I wouldnt want players telling the developers that they are stupid for not giving us the stat that matches The Invincible's two energy powers. So far, every argument I've read for making END primary can be applied to CON as well. And CON has actually been the better choice for the arguments being made for END.
I'd be sad to lose Detect Vulnerability, but I had enough trouble tanking with the Invincible vs any of my FFer tanks that I'd rather have better defensive options.
The numbers on Expertise and Hardened are perfectly linear; 3 extra HP per point of CON vs 4 HP per point of Endurance. You don't need to test that. I'm a little surprised you had ~217 CON, though; this seems high on a 2SS.
Yeah, but there's also an argument against making CON specifically the Super Stat, which does not apply to END.
Edit : And most of my argument for END is mitigation-centric. That doesn't mean all of the arguments proposed are.