I do not agree with the 30% reduction in the Forms and Enrage.
Some of us actually run in hybrid mode on our characters with a defense passive and use form or enrage as our damage buff. Chopping 30% off will cause a major damage decrease in my character's damage output and I refuse to use an offense passive and be squishy.
I'll echo what others are saying, requiring a full maintain of a power is unreasonable.
My munitions toon cannot fully maintain two gun mojo on a henchman without it dying, and it's only at rank 1 (with crippling challenge). That's to say nothing of much higher damage maintains.
Speaking of Two Gun Mojo. What about it granting a stack of Enrage, and the advantage on Bullet Beatdown and Lead Tempest which synergize with that single stack of Enraged.
Are you guys looking at these things and making adjustments? Keep in mind that currently you can have one stack of Enraged without it conflicting with other forms (my munitions character, for example, uses Form of the Tempest and is essentially a Bullet Beatdown centric build, I rely on FotT for damage, but the stack of Enraged for defense and aoe with its synergies with Bullet Beatdown and Lead Tempest).
With this change, it looks like there would be a form easily usable with just about any build under the sun.
Not true. Unless the healing one gains stacks on pet heals. It will be all but worthless to any ungrouped support player. Why even bother with the partial damage increase?
I think having the ranged form grant a stack every time you charge or maintain a power half way would be more reasonable, especially for low endurance builds.
since changes are being made to the forms how about looking at inertial dampening field since it looks kinda lackluster compared to the others. Perhaps even make new defensive toggles?
Also you should consider making a crit based version of the concentration toggle since only having the option of a full maintain or full charge seems a bit limiting unless the energy return is large enough to make it worth it.
I think having the ranged form grant a stack every time you charge or maintain a power half way would be more reasonable, especially for low endurance builds.
That would definately be an improvement, and one I could get behind. Though I'm still not sure I like that particular mechanic for the power itself (but I can't think of anything better, either, so I'm willing to deal with it).
Had a question about Aggressor, but I see that's already been asked a few times...
So how about Inertial Dampening Field? It's a pretty weak toggle and one I would only take on characters that lacked toggle options (healers, support, munitions, etc.), but now there's really no incentive for... well, anyone to take it. Except maybe for ranged builds who don't have maintains (that being said, can Concentration include 50% charge-up and not just maintain to build stacks?)
Also, now that auras are getting poked, can we please get a 0-point advantage on all of them to toggle the visual effects on and off like Aura of Radiant Protection does?
Honestly, at this point, I question why there are toggles instead of just rolling the damage into the base powers.
Other than it theoretically being easier to make one modifier power rather than alter several hundred I have no other idea why this is being done.
On the whole, the vast majority of these changes I'm not liking and I'm seeing all sorts of issues this is going to present unless a lot someones thought of these issues already and it's fixed after internal QA sees them immediately as well.
Much of this just hurts more than it helps anything. Kien. always has a way of wording things but the jist of what he said is spot on.
As the dev said...
"If we go through with these changes all affected players will receive a Retcon."
I don't know about you guys, but I kind of like the way this all looks.
Read second post of mine. ^_^
Nis, really dig the new avatar... Comes from trying to talk to the pack of beasts down here? =-p
Akinos, some changes are... yeah, a wee bit over the top.
Like support only auras?
You do remember that the Grimoire is a mostly DPS AT, right?
Not to spread wildfire or anything but it sure does look like our options are getting nerfed, nerfed harder and nerfed again... When do we get the trinity?
Also, 60%? I know why you do that, really, but combined with the support only?
Errrr are Aura-using people allowed to solo anything? Like leveling a bit?
Really, think about what Quincy said: allow auras to perform differently depending on their current role.
Locking them in one role only is killing the whole idea of freeform as we don't even get the most basic choice.
Well, anyway, some of these changes will clearly be to our advantage, but some are... nerfbat-ish, really.
I'll let the number-crunchers (if there're any left) do the math...
Great news !!!
ALL of theses changes are welcome, i wait for them since so many months.
It's time that CO becomes a real MMO with teamplay !
I know that there will be a lot of whine with theses changes, (i hope you will give a free retcon if you don't want a tempest of cry) but i thanks Cryptic to do them.
Good job mens. You are doing a real good job for this game since january.
Edit: since the last changes you have made in this project with support auras for hybrid again, to not frustrate your players who like doing a hybrid character with support passive and continue to play a character who can doing everything without the help of anyone and continue to play at a solo game, please forget my initial message.
This patch won't be a good one, so bad because the initial project really was.
Sometimes, Cryptic should do what they wanted to do and not listen too much the community.
Only if it's an ungrouped support player who also has no ranged or melee attacks and no controls.
Though I suppose if it's absolutely nothing but pets it would be the exception with nothing usable.
If it only gains stacks by healing others. Then you cant gain stacks solo. This forces support players to be full time group monkeys or pick another form....one that will reduce their functionality in a group.
In order to solo, they have to be less effective in a group. Thats hardly fair to have one form work that way.
Does this mean these powers can no longer be used in hybrid? I only play in hybrid role, I don't use the other roles for various reasons and it's been that way since the game launched. I'd like to know if I'm effectively locked out of 4 powers now, despite paying for full freefrom, unless I lock myself to one role the way free silver players are locked into.
Pretty much this, there's a few characters I've got who use Aura of Radiant Protection that really won't work in a support role. Why not have the Aura's (possibly the toggles too?) change function depending on what role you're in?
For example the Compassion one would give all full healing factor when in support but in hybrid would sacrifice 75% of that for some damage resistance.
Great news !!!
ALL of theses changes are welcome, i wait for them since so many months.
It's time that CO becomes a real MMO with teamplay !
I know that there will be a lot of whine with theses changes, (i hope you will give a free retcon if you don't want a tempest of cry) but i thanks Cryptic to do them.
Good job mens. You are doing a real good job for this game since january.
If you need people to be forced to team with you to get teams, maybe the problem is not the game.
Other than it theoretically being easier to make one modifier power rather than alter several hundred I have no other idea why this is being done.
I honestly figured that was most of the reason. Only Mental Discipline and Martial Arts Forms offer any unique, cool, and useful mechanics beyond "moar damagez". Enrage and Concentration are going to need mechanics on par with Mental Discipline and MA Forms to stand up.
If it only gains stacks by healing others. Then you cant gain stacks solo. This forces support players to be full time group monkeys or pick another form....one that will reduce their functionality in a group.
In order to solo, they have to be less effective in a group. Thats hardly fair to have one form work that way.
That's a possible issue, but, I think, a smaller one than the one I was referring to. If one form is less effective solo, you can make a choice to be less effective solo or less effective in a group.
If the archetypes don't get access to the forms, though, there is no option at all for them, except to be that much less effective both in and out of groups.
Not even done rebuilding alts from the last series of sweeping changes and now we've got another set lined up. Hate to say it but I'm probably going to spend some time in a game where abilities are adjusted in increments of 5% rather than 50%.
Cheez I only went away from forums for a coupla hours! Y'know actually playing the game and this happens!
So much less reason to take strength as an SS than there has ever been. With the changes to forms a number of my toons will have far less need for STR and could get more from Ego.
Lemme explain
I like to put ranged attacks on to my close combat builds in order to say solo Resistance elite and pull Gladiators one at a time. Now a typical build has a form which now no longer gets benefit from Str and the ranged attacks could use a boost so the use for strength is more limited.
It depends on build of course but Str is getting slightly edged out of the picture. For example I have an old unarmed MA build that uses Avalanche as a maintain mob slayer and Force Blast as a 100 ft attack. With these changes it's probably better to go Dex/Int/Ego rather than Dex/Str/Int.
I also wonder if AORP and AOED really need a self nerf, this will mean that one of my builds might be better served by a dual passive but maybe others can give reasons for this.
I think it is good that you are addressing concerns over forms/enrage and auras and I hope you will keep listening.
Would like to see a greater variety of ranged DPS forms rather than just the one presented. The current one equates to Form of the Tiger. How about some that mimic the other forms. Ones that stack on crits and dodges for those crit monkeys and ranged dodge tanks. Melee damage has several different toggles, might as well give the same kind of love to ranged builds.
Would be nice to see a greater variety of defensive and support toggles as well.
Would like to see a greater variety of ranged DPS forms rather than just the one presented. The current one equates to Form of the Tiger. How about some that mimic the other forms. Ones that stack on crits and dodges for those crit monkeys and ranged dodge tanks. Melee damage has several different toggles, might as well give the same kind of love to ranged builds.
Would be nice to see a greater variety of defensive and support toggles as well.
Certainly, this also. The current "ranged form" is decidedly blah in its implementation. It also lacks the tie-in mechanics that Enrage currently has, which allows you to pick certain powers and advantages to create a cross-set synergistic character. Going to need to spread that love.
I'm assuming that at some point all the other defensive/offensive passives will be "looked at" too? You can't just have some delegated to support and leave offensive and defensive ones available in hybrid role surely?
Make the auras symbiotic - the more teammates you buff with them, the more powerful of a buff you yourself receive.
Make the form powers consistent:
1. They're toggle powers
2. They impart a slight energy penalty
3. They grant and maintain 1 or more stacks of their respective buff (based on rank or other mechanics)
4. They include some mechanism for building more stacks of their buff, (through crits, applying/rupturing bleeds, etc).
5. They preclude the use of another form power.
Another thought - since many powers currently grant 1 stack of enrage, and since the forms (or lack of a form) specifically allow 1 stack of enrage, perhaps other powers should be looked at and made able to apply 1 stack of focus, or other buffs, as appropriate. Otherwise, remove those abilities and give those powers some other buff that they can apply to their user.
Also, why not simply remove the role-specific nature of passives and just have them provide their buff in a greater or lesser amount, based upon the role you're in; Defiance in melee dps gives a much smaller buff, but it still can be used there, quarry could be used in the tank role, but provides a much smaller damage buff there, etc.
Would like to see a greater variety of ranged DPS forms rather than just the one presented. The current one equates to Form of the Tiger. How about some that mimic the other forms. Ones that stack on crits and dodges for those crit monkeys and ranged dodge tanks. Melee damage has several different toggles, might as well give the same kind of love to ranged builds.
Would be nice to see a greater variety of defensive and support toggles as well.
That's a possible issue, but, I think, a smaller one than the one I was referring to. If one form is less effective solo, you can make a choice to be less effective solo or less effective in a group.
If the archetypes don't get access to the forms, though, there is no option at all for them, except to be that much less effective both in and out of groups.
The problem is, only one play style gets shafted by this. They are given a token form that they can only use while grouped. And then told they can only use their passives while locked in a group centric role. No other role has to make the choice of less effective in a group or less effective solo.
Not even done rebuilding alts from the last series of sweeping changes and now we've got another set lined up. Hate to say it but I'm probably going to spend some time in a game where abilities are adjusted in increments of 5% rather than 50%.
As hard as it is for me to say. "The last" pretty much called it. At least we get the retcons
The problem is, only one play style gets shafted by this. They are given a token form that they can only use while grouped. And then told they can only use their passives while locked in a group centric role. No other role has to make the choice of less effective in a group or less effective solo.
Which is why I've asked about the other passives? You can't just do this to one type of player role. If it turns out the others are on the cards for changing, to keep some balance with what they're doing with the "support" passives, then they might as well just get rid of freeform and make us all play archetypes.
Support players are getting screwed royally on this. And the AoPM change is roughly akin to burning the house down just to kill a fly.
Also, what everyone's already said about:
-Not being able to fully maintain a power before the target dies (on Concentration)
-Aggressor not having a purpose now
-Aspects not having much of a purpose
-Compassion being completely useless outside of a team
-Auras getting hit with the nerf bat so hard that no one will take them
-Also, restricting Auras to support role is a bad idea
I know a lot of people hate AoPM. But the thing that took it from "useful" to "broken" was the interaction with Enrage. You've (somewhat) removed that. Maybe see how it works with Enrage being a toggle before gutting the power as you have here.
Which is why I've asked about the other passives? You can't just do this to one type of player role. If it turns out the others are on the cards for changing, to keep some balance with what they're doing with the "support" passives, then they might as well just get rid of freeform and make us all play archetypes.
If they go through with that, why even have a hybrid form?
Eliminate it, force everyone into trinity roles, and wave goodbye to all the people who will bail out on the game at that point.
I know a lot of people hate AoPM. But the thing that took it from "useful" to "broken" was the interaction with Enrage. You've (somewhat) removed that. Maybe see how it works with Enrage being a toggle before gutting the power as you have here.
I can see a lot of merit in this, as well. I still think that maybe the benefit AoPM gives is a bit too high, but the argument presented does make me wonder how much of that is due to how it interacts with other powers (most of the big ones being changed with this set of proposed adjustments and changes).
How about another ~crazy~ change that will doubtlessly make people really hate me? It's called making Imbue work off of presence. Because putting out ~mega hits~ when you've got over 12k HP and possibly defiant to make getting through that a chore itself is well. A chore, and absurd.
And yes. I know this is a PvP complaint, but getting my offensive builds 1-shot by tanks has made me want to be vocal about the issue.
Support players are getting screwed royally on this. And the AoPM change is roughly akin to burning the house down just to kill a fly.
Also, what everyone's already said about:
-Not being able to fully maintain a power before the target dies (on Concentration)
-Aggressor not having a purpose now
-Aspects not having much of a purpose
-Compassion being completely useless outside of a team
-Auras getting hit with the nerf bat so hard that no one will take them
-Also, restricting Auras to support role is a bad idea
I know a lot of people hate AoPM. But the thing that took it from "useful" to "broken" was the interaction with Enrage. You've (somewhat) removed that. Maybe see how it works with Enrage being a toggle before gutting the power as you have here.
If Enrage was the issue, why not have it scale damage (about 10% per stack) purely off of how many stacks of defiant you have on you rather than strength? Defiant would still scale off constitution though.
The Enrage changes (exclusive toggle + reduced effectiveness) pretty much tear down Primal Rage builds anyway. At that point, it takes a most of the steam out of Primal Rage builds which are the current "problem child." It looks like the other three auras, which ranged from useful (AoRP) to meh (AoED) to bad (AoAC, lawl) are eating the nerfbat for the sake of AoPM.
This is making changes with a sledge hammer, not a scalpel.
The Enrage changes (exclusive toggle + reduced effectiveness) pretty much tear down Primal Rage builds anyway. At that point, it takes a most of the steam out of Primal Rage builds which are the current "problem child." It looks like the other three auras, which ranged from useful (AoRP) to meh (AoED) to bad (AoAC, lawl) are eating the nerfbat for the sake of AoPM.
This is making changes with a sledge hammer, not a scalpel.
Ridiculous. AoAC was always great and will only get better!
Enrage:
Enrage is now a toggled form. Toggling on Enrage allows you to build more than 1 stack of Enraged! at a time. This power counts as a Form.
This power now affects Melee damage for its full amount, and ranged damage for half that amount.
Effectiveness reduced by 30%
Advantage: Endorphin Rush: This advantage has been removed because it no longer fits the intended function of the power.
1) how do you gain stacks of enraged now? Using might powers is not as easy as doing crits or dodging. Perhaps on knocks?
2) What will/has become of the synergy with defiance?
3) Is growth still a 0 point advantage? If not, I'd like to see replaced in some form. On defiance perhaps?
4) As all have said, what about agressor now? New AO that scales off of str and adds crit would be nice.
5) Why the 30% overall reduction? Seems unecessary, especially with the type of defense available now.
6) As someone else mentioned, will the damage buff from agressor now be coded back into the melee attacks?
If they go through with that, why even have a hybrid form?
Eliminate it, force everyone into trinity roles, and wave goodbye to all the people who will bail out on the game at that point.
Which is why this change is pretty insane, you can't logically have this particular sort of "inequality" in the powers system. Effectively, what is being said is that if you want to heal and have passives that buff you or your allies then you have to be totally a support role player; which is effectively a support archetype in almost everything but name.
The Enrage changes (exclusive toggle + reduced effectiveness) pretty much tear down Primal Rage builds anyway. At that point, it takes a most of the steam out of Primal Rage builds which are the current "problem child." It looks like the other three auras, which ranged from useful (AoRP) to meh (AoED) to bad (AoAC, lawl) are eating the nerfbat for the sake of AoPM.
This is making changes with a sledge hammer, not a scalpel.
Changing with a sledge hammer, then burning the remnants to be sure.
And Shaosyant, Imbue already "can" scale with Presence. Right now it's Con OR Pre, whichever's higher. I assume you mean making it only scale with Pre?
You don't need to change old powers, Cryptic. You need to make new ones. These changes will only make people make hybrid builds and end builds that are focused to one kind of spectrum. I like seeing builds that only utilize melee or range along with the occasional mix of both. Changing focus and enrage will make all builds that use them hybridized.
Please don't make my heroes be less effective and less super. Forms and Enrage don't need to do less damage. Passives that directly effect my character don't need to be weaker, but how they effect other players may need to be changed.
But if you insist on making AoPM be less effective for the user then nerf it as much as you are nerfing the Forms and Enrage by the same 30%. I still disagree with the nerfs at all, though. I choose a passive to make my hero super and if it benefits my team than that's an added bonus.
If you do any of these changes to currently existing powers you only discourage players from using them. We want to make our characters strong and not dependent on other heroes unless when necessary against a big challenge. Don't force me to team with players because my hero sucks by himself. The damage I'll end up doing will only make fights more tedious and the super long fights that much more boring to sit through.
My focus martial artists don't use ranged. Don't force me to get ranged powers.
My AoPM is supposed to have uber stats since he's not choosing a passive that boosts his damage. That's the balance. This goes for any passive that boosts everyone's effectiveness.
Champions! We have some big changes coming with some powers you know and love, as well as some new powers to round out some builds and add missing elements that players have been asking for!
If we go through with these changes all affected players will receive a Retcon.[
Since On Alert! went live we have been looking at the state of powers and want to offer a sneak peak at some of the changes that will be making their way to the PTS soon!
First up, we are making some adjustments to Forms, as well as adding 3 brand new forms to choose from!
Below are the patch notes relating to Forms.
Thanks for the info, particularly the advanced retcon notice as they will be needed if these changes go through.
Enrage:
Enrage is now a toggled form. Toggling on Enrage allows you to build more than 1 stack of Enraged! at a time. This power counts as a Form.
This power now affects Melee damage for its full amount, and ranged damage for half that amount.
Effectiveness reduced by 30%
Advantage: Endorphin Rush: This advantage has been removed because it no longer fits the intended function of the power.
1) Please don't remove Giant Growth or Endorphin Rush from this power. As for Giant Growth, there are characters who are built almost entirely around that advantage and as for Endorphin Rush, I know that is not used often but I have a character that hinges pretty heavily on this advantage.
2) Unless I'm missing something, this power would be completely non-competitive with several other options since it doesn't generate energy. It needs an energy generation mechanic as well. Something as simple as generates energy when a stack is granted.
3) Might powers are going to lose power with this change since they were balanced around Enraged and Aggressor. Hopefully this has been considered and will be addressed before a change like this hits live server.
Focus:
Now scales only on Dexterity, instead of Half of Strength and Dexterity
This power now affects Melee damage for its full amount, and ranged damage for half that amount.
Effectiveness reduced by 30%
The stripping of the dual stat interaction combined with an overall 30% decrease in effectiveness is going a bit overboard. One or the other is fine but both put together is gutting this power to an alarming degree. Your freeforms are going to feel this significantly. Some of your ATs like the blade, the master, the fist, the unleashed and the specialist are going to be absolutely trashed if you do both of these changes together.
*New Power* Concentration: Toggle - Form
Concentration grants you bonus ranged damage and a lesser amount of bonus melee damage. This bonus scales with your Ego or Intelligence, whichever is higher.
Concentration grants you bonus energy when you gain a stack of it. This bonus energy scales with your Ego or Intelligence, whichever is higher.
You gain a stack of Concentration whenever you fully charge or maintain a power.
This buff lasts 20 seconds.
This power can be found in the "Technology" Tree (along with Power Armor, Gadgeteering, Archery, and Munitions).
Making this function off of a full maintain or a toggle is a no-go. There are SO many factors that make this too clunky to be interesting. The simplest problem is that many of the enemies we face can't survive a full maintain preventing us from using them to generate stacks in preparation for the enemies we need to hit harder and thus want the stacks for. This is the same issue munitions characters run into trying to use two gun mojo to proc the enrage stack needed to influence the Not Without Incident and Tread Softly advantages. The other problem is that unlike some of the various martial arts forms this locks players into picking very specific powers to trigger it. This form should use a mechanic (or several) like the martial arts forms...particularly Tempest Form and Master Form. Those are two of the most used because they fit the most concepts. They are the gold standard so to speak.
*New Power* Compassion: Toggle - Form
Compassion grants you bonus healing and a lesser amount of bonus damage. This bonus scales with your Presence or Recovery, whichever is higher.
Compassion grants you bonus energy when you gain a stack of it. This bonus energy scales with your Presence or Recovery, whichever is higher.
You gain a stack of Compassion whenever you heal an ally.
This buff lasts 20 seconds.
This power can be found in the "Mystic" Tree (with Sorcery and Supernatural).
Making this function only when an ally is healed is a no-go. It needs something so it can function for solo players as well. Otherwise, this is taking a step towards forcing a trinity which TBH many of the below changes seem geared towards.
*New Power* Manipulator: Toggle - Form
Manipulator grants you bonus Hold Magnitude and a lesser amount of bonus damage. This bonus scales with your Presence or Recovery, whichever is higher.
*NOTE* This will allow you to hold Super Villains and Legendaries (for very short amounts of time).
Manipulator grants you bonus energy when you gain a stack of it. This bonus energy scales with your Presence or Recovery, whichever is higher.
You gain a stack of Manipulator whenever you fully charge or maintain a Control power.
This buff lasts 60 seconds.
This power can be found in the "Mind" Tree (with Telepathy and Telekinetics).
Sounds cool.
These are some huge changes, and we would like to give more players more options for toggleable stacking buffs.
In relation to this, we have taken a look at the Aura passives in the Mystic Tree and a few changes will be made to these powers.
We would like Auras to better fill their role as support powers which greatly strengthen the team of the player who is using them. Below are the notes relating to Auras.
Aura of Primal Majesty:
The self portion of this passive has been reduced by 60%.
The ally portion of this passive has been increased by 45%.
This passive is now a support only passive.
Aura of Arcane Clarity:
The self portion of this passive has been reduced by 20%.
The ally portion of this passive has been increased by 120%.
This passive is now a support only passive.
Aura of Runic Protection:
The self portion of this passive has been reduced by 50%.
The ally portion of this passive has been increased by 50%.
This passive is now a support only passive.
Aura of Ebon Destruction:
The self portion of this passive has been reduced by 50%.
The ally portion of this passive has been increased by 200%.
This passive is now a support only passive.
These are some really big changes, and player feedback is important at the different stages of adjusting and balancing these powers, and your feedback is greatly appreciated! Keep your eyes on the PTS for your chance to test these new changes in the next few days!
This entire aura section is pretty horrible. Here's why.
1) You penalize your solo players or even team players who for whatever reason don't have a team at the time. Using myself as an example. I have many friends in this game and run my own supergroup. Even still, I solo plenty. Cutting the effectiveness of these powers down when solo (Especially the non-primal ones) effectively removes them from being useful for a solo player. A solo player running an aura is already reducing their effectiveness (AoPM not included) compared to other options so gutting them even further is game breaking. This forces trinity style play on any character using them.
2) AoED and AoAC were already underpowered both solo and in a group. A reduction in effectiveness is the last thing these two powers need. AoRP was just right and didn't need to be changed. IMO it's the most balanced power you folks have in the game. Good without being great, benefits a solo player without making Invuln or Defiance useless, benefits a team without making everyone unkillable. Please don't mess with the numbers on this power. It was your standard bearer and this change would kill it by means of what I explained in point 1.
3) Locking any power to one role is a no-go. A big point of freeform for many players is not only power selections, emanation points, and hue shifting but role selection as well. Hybrid or balanced was the stance people used that didn't want to excel in any one specific area but wanted to be in the middle of the road. Many players, myself included, play exclusively in this role. You gave us a spec in the protector tree that allowed hybrids to tank. I took that as a sign that you were allowing people to play any role in hybrid if they chose while knowingly taking a reduction in some aspects to maintain balance in others. Making these passives work in support role completely undermines this idea and effectively locks players like me who paid/pay for freeform out of 4 power choices. I'm not using these if I'm locked into support role because I don't like how support role plays. I don't like the trade offs and I chose freeform to have that choice among others. Please don't set the precedent of stripping choices like this away.
Um, wow. This is going to necessitate a LOT of build replanning.
::EDIT::
And now that I have time to think of it, it's not going to affect PvP the way we'd like it to. Ranged will still dominate because the tools melee relies on to close in (CC and so forth) are STILL useless because of gear/spec trees. Any chance those will be looked at as well (Protector's snare invulnerability, for example).
Dangit, I just re-wrote three builds with a fourth in progress.
My input on ranged form: Needs more varieties. Martial arts have several different forms that trigger in a variety of ways. I'm hoping you're working on a few other forms to maximize variety. I think a crit based one would make a good sister to the double blade form. Maybe throw out something for dodging attacks for any ranged dodge-tanks.
I know a lot of people hate AoPM. But the thing that took it from "useful" to "broken" was the interaction with Enrage. You've (somewhat) removed that. Maybe see how it works with Enrage being a toggle before gutting the power as you have here.
1. Get rid of the enrage power, and make aggressor the form that permits you to maintain more than 1 stack of enrage. Have it get you a stack of enrage whenever you (attempt to) knock a target. Remove its flat crushing damage increase, and just have it maintain however many stacks of enrage as you have ranks in the power.
2. Keep the planned changes to auras, minus the support-only restriction. Add 2 advantages to them - 1 that gives you a significantly greater buff to yourself, and other that gives you some benefit based upon how many other people are affected by your aura.
3. Create a form power that buffs ranged damage and generates stacks of its buff based upon whether you attack your target from a certain minimum range or further, (say 30'). These buffs would provide a cost discount for ranged attacks.
4. Create a form power that buffs ranged damaged based upon hitting 2 or more targets w/ a ranged attack.
-Auras getting hit with the nerf bat so hard that no one will take them
We're a long way out from any of this going live, so I wouldn't be too worried about the exact numbers just yet. These will be tweaked until they are all useful.
-Also, restricting Auras to support role is a bad idea.
I actually totally agree with this and don't expect this change to stay.
I promise you, we don't sit here and think of ways to gut powers or destroy builds. I know that can be a side effect of balance changes, but if things are out of line then things are out of line. Thanks again for all the feedback, guys.
Edit: I wouldn't go changing around any guides based on these patch notes! NOTHING is final. Heck, we could still up and decide to revert everything if we hate the way it's going. Above all else, this is to keep you guys involved in the process! It's as much your game as it is ours.
Thanks for the info, particularly the advanced retcon notice as they will be needed if these changes go through.
1) Please don't remove Giant Growth or Endorphin Rush from this power. As for Giant Growth, there are characters who are built almost entirely around that advantage and as for Endorphin Rush, I know that is not used often but I have a character that hinges pretty heavily on this advantage.
2) Unless I'm missing something, this power would be completely non-competitive with several other options since it doesn't generate energy. It needs an energy generation mechanic as well. Something as simple as generates energy when a stack is granted.
3) Might powers are going to lose power with this change since they were balanced around Enraged and Aggressor. Hopefully this has been considered and will be addressed before a change like this hits live server.
The stripping of the dual stat interaction combined with an overall 30% decrease in effectiveness is going a bit overboard. One or the other is fine but both put together is gutting this power to an alarming degree. Your freeforms are going to feel this significantly. Some of your ATs like the blade, the master, the fist, the unleashed and the specialist are going to be absolutely trashed if you do both of these changes together.
Making this function off of a full maintain or a toggle is a no-go. There are SO many factors that make this too clunky to be interesting. The simplest problem is that many of the enemies we face can't survive a full maintain preventing us from using them to generate stacks in preparation for the enemies we need to hit harder and thus want the stacks for. This is the same issue munitions characters run into trying to use two gun mojo to proc the enrage stack needed to influence the Not Without Incident and Tread Softly advantages. The other problem is that unlike some of the various martial arts forms this locks players into picking very specific powers to trigger it. This form should use a mechanic (or several) like the martial arts forms...particularly Tempest Form and Master Form. Those are two of the most used because they fit the most concepts. They are the gold standard so to speak.
Making this function only when an ally is healed is a no-go. It needs something so it can function for solo players as well. Otherwise, this is taking a step towards forcing a trinity which TBH many of the below changes seem geared towards.
Sounds cool.
This entire aura section is pretty horrible. Here's why.
1) You penalize your solo players or even team players who for whatever reason don't have a team at the time. Using myself as an example. I have many friends in this game and run my own supergroup. Even still, I solo plenty. Cutting the effectiveness of these powers down when solo (Especially the non-primal ones) effectively removes them from being useful for a solo player. A solo player running an aura is already reducing their effectiveness (AoPM not included) compared to other options so gutting them even further is game breaking. This forces trinity style play on any character using them.
2) AoED and AoAC were already underpowered both solo and in a group. A reduction in effectiveness is the last thing these two powers need. AoRP was just right and didn't need to be changed. IMO it's the most balanced power you folks have in the game. Good without being great, benefits a solo player without making Invuln or Defiance useless, benefits a team without making everyone unkillable. Please don't mess with the numbers on this power. It was your standard bearer and this change would kill it by means of what I explained in point 1.
3) Locking any power to one role is a no-go. A big point of freeform for many players is not only power selections, emanation points, and hue shifting but role selection as well. Hybrid or balanced was the stance people used that didn't want to excel in any one specific area but wanted to be in the middle of the road. Many players, myself included, play exclusively in this role. You gave us a spec in the protector tree that allowed hybrids to tank. I took that as a sign that you were allowing people to play any role in hybrid if they chose while knowingly taking a reduction in some aspects to maintain balance in others. Making these passives work in support role completely undermines this idea and effectively locks players like me who paid/pay for freeform out of 4 power choices. I'm not using these if I'm locked into support role because I don't like how support role plays. I don't like the trade offs and I chose freeform to have that choice among others. Please don't set the precedent of stripping choices like this away.
Yeah I use Endorphin Rush, it probably wasn't doing much but I'd hate to lose that advantage personally.
Comments
Agreed .
Some of us actually run in hybrid mode on our characters with a defense passive and use form or enrage as our damage buff. Chopping 30% off will cause a major damage decrease in my character's damage output and I refuse to use an offense passive and be squishy.
Also agreed.
Not true. Unless the healing one gains stacks on pet heals. It will be all but worthless to any ungrouped support player. Why even bother with the partial damage increase?
Though I suppose if it's absolutely nothing but pets it would be the exception with nothing usable.
Also you should consider making a crit based version of the concentration toggle since only having the option of a full maintain or full charge seems a bit limiting unless the energy return is large enough to make it worth it.
That would definately be an improvement, and one I could get behind. Though I'm still not sure I like that particular mechanic for the power itself (but I can't think of anything better, either, so I'm willing to deal with it).
So how about Inertial Dampening Field? It's a pretty weak toggle and one I would only take on characters that lacked toggle options (healers, support, munitions, etc.), but now there's really no incentive for... well, anyone to take it. Except maybe for ranged builds who don't have maintains (that being said, can Concentration include 50% charge-up and not just maintain to build stacks?)
Also, now that auras are getting poked, can we please get a 0-point advantage on all of them to toggle the visual effects on and off like Aura of Radiant Protection does?
Other than it theoretically being easier to make one modifier power rather than alter several hundred I have no other idea why this is being done.
On the whole, the vast majority of these changes I'm not liking and I'm seeing all sorts of issues this is going to present unless a lot someones thought of these issues already and it's fixed after internal QA sees them immediately as well.
Much of this just hurts more than it helps anything. Kien. always has a way of wording things but the jist of what he said is spot on.
Totally agree, except the AoPM nerf....well ok 50% and its even =P
Read second post of mine. ^_^
Nis, really dig the new avatar... Comes from trying to talk to the pack of beasts down here? =-p
Akinos, some changes are... yeah, a wee bit over the top.
Like support only auras?
You do remember that the Grimoire is a mostly DPS AT, right?
Not to spread wildfire or anything but it sure does look like our options are getting nerfed, nerfed harder and nerfed again... When do we get the trinity?
Also, 60%? I know why you do that, really, but combined with the support only?
Errrr are Aura-using people allowed to solo anything? Like leveling a bit?
Really, think about what Quincy said: allow auras to perform differently depending on their current role.
Locking them in one role only is killing the whole idea of freeform as we don't even get the most basic choice.
Well, anyway, some of these changes will clearly be to our advantage, but some are... nerfbat-ish, really.
I'll let the number-crunchers (if there're any left) do the math...
ALL of theses changes are welcome, i wait for them since so many months.
It's time that CO becomes a real MMO with teamplay !
I know that there will be a lot of whine with theses changes, (i hope you will give a free retcon if you don't want a tempest of cry) but i thanks Cryptic to do them.
Good job mens. You are doing a real good job for this game since january.
Edit: since the last changes you have made in this project with support auras for hybrid again, to not frustrate your players who like doing a hybrid character with support passive and continue to play a character who can doing everything without the help of anyone and continue to play at a solo game, please forget my initial message.
This patch won't be a good one, so bad because the initial project really was.
Sometimes, Cryptic should do what they wanted to do and not listen too much the community.
If it only gains stacks by healing others. Then you cant gain stacks solo. This forces support players to be full time group monkeys or pick another form....one that will reduce their functionality in a group.
In order to solo, they have to be less effective in a group. Thats hardly fair to have one form work that way.
Pretty much this, there's a few characters I've got who use Aura of Radiant Protection that really won't work in a support role. Why not have the Aura's (possibly the toggles too?) change function depending on what role you're in?
For example the Compassion one would give all full healing factor when in support but in hybrid would sacrifice 75% of that for some damage resistance.
If you need people to be forced to team with you to get teams, maybe the problem is not the game.
That's a possible issue, but, I think, a smaller one than the one I was referring to. If one form is less effective solo, you can make a choice to be less effective solo or less effective in a group.
If the archetypes don't get access to the forms, though, there is no option at all for them, except to be that much less effective both in and out of groups.
So much less reason to take strength as an SS than there has ever been. With the changes to forms a number of my toons will have far less need for STR and could get more from Ego.
Lemme explain
I like to put ranged attacks on to my close combat builds in order to say solo Resistance elite and pull Gladiators one at a time. Now a typical build has a form which now no longer gets benefit from Str and the ranged attacks could use a boost so the use for strength is more limited.
It depends on build of course but Str is getting slightly edged out of the picture. For example I have an old unarmed MA build that uses Avalanche as a maintain mob slayer and Force Blast as a 100 ft attack. With these changes it's probably better to go Dex/Int/Ego rather than Dex/Str/Int.
I also wonder if AORP and AOED really need a self nerf, this will mean that one of my builds might be better served by a dual passive but maybe others can give reasons for this.
I think it is good that you are addressing concerns over forms/enrage and auras and I hope you will keep listening.
Would be nice to see a greater variety of defensive and support toggles as well.
Certainly, this also. The current "ranged form" is decidedly blah in its implementation. It also lacks the tie-in mechanics that Enrage currently has, which allows you to pick certain powers and advantages to create a cross-set synergistic character. Going to need to spread that love.
Make the form powers consistent:
1. They're toggle powers
2. They impart a slight energy penalty
3. They grant and maintain 1 or more stacks of their respective buff (based on rank or other mechanics)
4. They include some mechanism for building more stacks of their buff, (through crits, applying/rupturing bleeds, etc).
5. They preclude the use of another form power.
Another thought - since many powers currently grant 1 stack of enrage, and since the forms (or lack of a form) specifically allow 1 stack of enrage, perhaps other powers should be looked at and made able to apply 1 stack of focus, or other buffs, as appropriate. Otherwise, remove those abilities and give those powers some other buff that they can apply to their user.
Also, why not simply remove the role-specific nature of passives and just have them provide their buff in a greater or lesser amount, based upon the role you're in; Defiance in melee dps gives a much smaller buff, but it still can be used there, quarry could be used in the tank role, but provides a much smaller damage buff there, etc.
I'll agree with that.
The problem is, only one play style gets shafted by this. They are given a token form that they can only use while grouped. And then told they can only use their passives while locked in a group centric role. No other role has to make the choice of less effective in a group or less effective solo.
As hard as it is for me to say. "The last" pretty much called it. At least we get the retcons
Which is why I've asked about the other passives? You can't just do this to one type of player role. If it turns out the others are on the cards for changing, to keep some balance with what they're doing with the "support" passives, then they might as well just get rid of freeform and make us all play archetypes.
Also, what everyone's already said about:
-Not being able to fully maintain a power before the target dies (on Concentration)
-Aggressor not having a purpose now
-Aspects not having much of a purpose
-Compassion being completely useless outside of a team
-Auras getting hit with the nerf bat so hard that no one will take them
-Also, restricting Auras to support role is a bad idea
I know a lot of people hate AoPM. But the thing that took it from "useful" to "broken" was the interaction with Enrage. You've (somewhat) removed that. Maybe see how it works with Enrage being a toggle before gutting the power as you have here.
If they go through with that, why even have a hybrid form?
Eliminate it, force everyone into trinity roles, and wave goodbye to all the people who will bail out on the game at that point.
I can see a lot of merit in this, as well. I still think that maybe the benefit AoPM gives is a bit too high, but the argument presented does make me wonder how much of that is due to how it interacts with other powers (most of the big ones being changed with this set of proposed adjustments and changes).
And yes. I know this is a PvP complaint, but getting my offensive builds 1-shot by tanks has made me want to be vocal about the issue.
If Enrage was the issue, why not have it scale damage (about 10% per stack) purely off of how many stacks of defiant you have on you rather than strength? Defiant would still scale off constitution though.
This is making changes with a sledge hammer, not a scalpel.
Ridiculous. AoAC was always great and will only get better!
Use with Eyebeams for maximum effectiveness.
Oh, how will you gain enrage stacks now?
Oh now youve done it, let the secret out. Now they are going to nerf eyebeams to glorified flashlights. Zero damage, but a perception buff
Enrage:
Enrage is now a toggled form. Toggling on Enrage allows you to build more than 1 stack of Enraged! at a time. This power counts as a Form.
This power now affects Melee damage for its full amount, and ranged damage for half that amount.
Effectiveness reduced by 30%
Advantage: Endorphin Rush: This advantage has been removed because it no longer fits the intended function of the power.
1) how do you gain stacks of enraged now? Using might powers is not as easy as doing crits or dodging. Perhaps on knocks?
2) What will/has become of the synergy with defiance?
3) Is growth still a 0 point advantage? If not, I'd like to see replaced in some form. On defiance perhaps?
4) As all have said, what about agressor now? New AO that scales off of str and adds crit would be nice.
5) Why the 30% overall reduction? Seems unecessary, especially with the type of defense available now.
6) As someone else mentioned, will the damage buff from agressor now be coded back into the melee attacks?
Which is why this change is pretty insane, you can't logically have this particular sort of "inequality" in the powers system. Effectively, what is being said is that if you want to heal and have passives that buff you or your allies then you have to be totally a support role player; which is effectively a support archetype in almost everything but name.
Changing with a sledge hammer, then burning the remnants to be sure.
And Shaosyant, Imbue already "can" scale with Presence. Right now it's Con OR Pre, whichever's higher. I assume you mean making it only scale with Pre?
Please don't make my heroes be less effective and less super. Forms and Enrage don't need to do less damage. Passives that directly effect my character don't need to be weaker, but how they effect other players may need to be changed.
But if you insist on making AoPM be less effective for the user then nerf it as much as you are nerfing the Forms and Enrage by the same 30%. I still disagree with the nerfs at all, though. I choose a passive to make my hero super and if it benefits my team than that's an added bonus.
If you do any of these changes to currently existing powers you only discourage players from using them. We want to make our characters strong and not dependent on other heroes unless when necessary against a big challenge. Don't force me to team with players because my hero sucks by himself. The damage I'll end up doing will only make fights more tedious and the super long fights that much more boring to sit through.
My focus martial artists don't use ranged. Don't force me to get ranged powers.
My AoPM is supposed to have uber stats since he's not choosing a passive that boosts his damage. That's the balance. This goes for any passive that boosts everyone's effectiveness.
In all, don't make my heroes weaker.
Thanks for the info, particularly the advanced retcon notice as they will be needed if these changes go through.
1) Please don't remove Giant Growth or Endorphin Rush from this power. As for Giant Growth, there are characters who are built almost entirely around that advantage and as for Endorphin Rush, I know that is not used often but I have a character that hinges pretty heavily on this advantage.
2) Unless I'm missing something, this power would be completely non-competitive with several other options since it doesn't generate energy. It needs an energy generation mechanic as well. Something as simple as generates energy when a stack is granted.
3) Might powers are going to lose power with this change since they were balanced around Enraged and Aggressor. Hopefully this has been considered and will be addressed before a change like this hits live server.
The stripping of the dual stat interaction combined with an overall 30% decrease in effectiveness is going a bit overboard. One or the other is fine but both put together is gutting this power to an alarming degree. Your freeforms are going to feel this significantly. Some of your ATs like the blade, the master, the fist, the unleashed and the specialist are going to be absolutely trashed if you do both of these changes together.
Making this function off of a full maintain or a toggle is a no-go. There are SO many factors that make this too clunky to be interesting. The simplest problem is that many of the enemies we face can't survive a full maintain preventing us from using them to generate stacks in preparation for the enemies we need to hit harder and thus want the stacks for. This is the same issue munitions characters run into trying to use two gun mojo to proc the enrage stack needed to influence the Not Without Incident and Tread Softly advantages. The other problem is that unlike some of the various martial arts forms this locks players into picking very specific powers to trigger it. This form should use a mechanic (or several) like the martial arts forms...particularly Tempest Form and Master Form. Those are two of the most used because they fit the most concepts. They are the gold standard so to speak.
Making this function only when an ally is healed is a no-go. It needs something so it can function for solo players as well. Otherwise, this is taking a step towards forcing a trinity which TBH many of the below changes seem geared towards.
Sounds cool.
This entire aura section is pretty horrible. Here's why.
1) You penalize your solo players or even team players who for whatever reason don't have a team at the time. Using myself as an example. I have many friends in this game and run my own supergroup. Even still, I solo plenty. Cutting the effectiveness of these powers down when solo (Especially the non-primal ones) effectively removes them from being useful for a solo player. A solo player running an aura is already reducing their effectiveness (AoPM not included) compared to other options so gutting them even further is game breaking. This forces trinity style play on any character using them.
2) AoED and AoAC were already underpowered both solo and in a group. A reduction in effectiveness is the last thing these two powers need. AoRP was just right and didn't need to be changed. IMO it's the most balanced power you folks have in the game. Good without being great, benefits a solo player without making Invuln or Defiance useless, benefits a team without making everyone unkillable. Please don't mess with the numbers on this power. It was your standard bearer and this change would kill it by means of what I explained in point 1.
3) Locking any power to one role is a no-go. A big point of freeform for many players is not only power selections, emanation points, and hue shifting but role selection as well. Hybrid or balanced was the stance people used that didn't want to excel in any one specific area but wanted to be in the middle of the road. Many players, myself included, play exclusively in this role. You gave us a spec in the protector tree that allowed hybrids to tank. I took that as a sign that you were allowing people to play any role in hybrid if they chose while knowingly taking a reduction in some aspects to maintain balance in others. Making these passives work in support role completely undermines this idea and effectively locks players like me who paid/pay for freeform out of 4 power choices. I'm not using these if I'm locked into support role because I don't like how support role plays. I don't like the trade offs and I chose freeform to have that choice among others. Please don't set the precedent of stripping choices like this away.
Dangit, I just re-wrote three builds with a fourth in progress.
At least the changes are cool.
Exactly.
Imagine how I feel having re-written 16 build guides and was working on 17 when someone told me about this post.
1. Get rid of the enrage power, and make aggressor the form that permits you to maintain more than 1 stack of enrage. Have it get you a stack of enrage whenever you (attempt to) knock a target. Remove its flat crushing damage increase, and just have it maintain however many stacks of enrage as you have ranks in the power.
2. Keep the planned changes to auras, minus the support-only restriction. Add 2 advantages to them - 1 that gives you a significantly greater buff to yourself, and other that gives you some benefit based upon how many other people are affected by your aura.
3. Create a form power that buffs ranged damage and generates stacks of its buff based upon whether you attack your target from a certain minimum range or further, (say 30'). These buffs would provide a cost discount for ranged attacks.
4. Create a form power that buffs ranged damaged based upon hitting 2 or more targets w/ a ranged attack.
Agreed, and this will be tweaked.
We're discussing what to do with Aggressor. Active Offense is an option.
Under discussion.
Also under discussion!
We're a long way out from any of this going live, so I wouldn't be too worried about the exact numbers just yet. These will be tweaked until they are all useful.
I actually totally agree with this and don't expect this change to stay.
I promise you, we don't sit here and think of ways to gut powers or destroy builds. I know that can be a side effect of balance changes, but if things are out of line then things are out of line. Thanks again for all the feedback, guys.
Edit: I wouldn't go changing around any guides based on these patch notes! NOTHING is final. Heck, we could still up and decide to revert everything if we hate the way it's going. Above all else, this is to keep you guys involved in the process! It's as much your game as it is ours.
Yeah I use Endorphin Rush, it probably wasn't doing much but I'd hate to lose that advantage personally.
That would make them more useful than they are now..