Superheroes vs. Government

kjames91

For all the RPers in CO, how do you run your superheroes with the government?

For instance (Dynamic Four people, please don't read) A team member took debris from a MEC destroid that attacked Harmon Labs. Next session, UNTIL Project Shiva is going to confiscate any evidence anyone took for reassurance of Dr. Destroyer's location. This will cause a little rift between them, but that's okay. When you RP, does the government 100% work with the heroes or does the government try to handle the situation themselves?

Maybe I'm just looking for reassurance.

bulgarex

Since you raised this question in this forum, I thought initially that you wanted to know how situations like this are handled in the PnP books. I'm going to answer on that basis, and you can say whether you want that or something else.

The relationship between the US government and various superheroes depends on several factors. One is the attitudes of local government/law enforcement representatives. Some of those respect law-abiding superheroes and work well with them, while others consider them amateurs who cause more trouble than they solve. Another factor is the heroes' formal status with the government. Supers who are registered, i.e. have revealed their identities and capabilities to the US government, are far more likely to receive tolerance, cooperation, and assistance from its agencies than those who aren't. In most cases registration is the price for that assistance. Some superheroes and teams are actually government sanctioned, having been given federal police powers like FBI agents, and protection from some of the legal consequences of their actions. But sanctioned heroes operate under the same restraints as law enforcement in terms of use of force, gathering evidence, etc.

bulgarex

Pursuant to your specific example, for teams who work with the government or are sanctioned by them, they're expected to turn over anything significant they may discover that the government requests, unless the team has the facilities and expertise to study/contain it themselves.

kjames91

Okay. You're second part answered my question. Yes, they are part of the SLP in UNTIL and could use their knowledge on Dr. Destroyer, but wasn't sure if the government treated certain supers the same. An UNTIL Major NPC could say, "We've got this under control. If we need help, we'll call UNITY in."

bulgarex

That sounds like a reasonable scenario under the circumstances. As you're probably aware, teams which are part of UNTIL's Superhero Liaison Program are not under direct orders from UNTIL, but if the heroes refuse a "request" from UNTIL without a good reason, the agency may sever their relationship.

If this happened on American sovereign territory, and the American government wanted the salvaged Destroid components, that might be problematic, particularly if the team also has American government sanction. In that case I'd hang onto the components and suggest to both parties that they sort it out between them and get back to you.

kjames91

Perfect thanks as always!

bulgarex

You're welcome. Glad you found that helpful.

Just FYI to anyone interested, UNTIL: Defenders Of Freedom is the book with information for all things to do with the agency. The details about superhero registration in the United States, and government sanction, can be found in Champions Universe, the core setting source book.

bladesta

bulgarex wrote: »

If this happened on American sovereign territory, and the American government wanted the salvaged Destroid components, that might be problematic, particularly if the team also has American government sanction. In that case I'd hang onto the components and suggest to both parties that they sort it out between them and get back to you.

I don't know whether to make this a new question, but it made me think - what is the international law status of UNTIL and UNITY? I hadn't fully put 2 and 2 together, but it's essentially an international force undertaking operations in sovereign states who would have the political clout to prevent them from doing so. Do the source books go into that in any great detail?

bulgarex

The aforementioned UNTIL: Defenders Of Freedom does cover that subject in substantial detail. To hit the high points: The United States and most other nations are signatory to what's commonly called "the Tribunal Treaty," which "gives UNTIL the ability to operate without other restrictions [i.e. as per its charter] in any signatory state or international territory" (p. 46). No more details about the treaty are given. UNTIL agents have "International Police Powers," a (fictional) authority to arrest anyone committing a crime in any signatory state (i.e. nation), although the definition of "crime" has to match the laws of said state. If a criminal is wanted in another country, the nation where the criminal is arrested would have to go through an extradition process to send him to that country -- assuming the two states have an extradition treaty. There are a few nations who haven't signed the Tribunal Treaty, China being most prominent among them.

The book also spells out quite a bit of international law, under which a sovereign state is considered to have primary jurisdiction over: anything that happens in its own territory; persons or things of its nationality anywhere in the world (including corporations and vehicles); protection against acts which threaten its existence or proper functioning, including internationally (such as counterfeiting currency); and to legislate against activities universally condemned, such as genocide (pp. 24-25). The concept of "jurisdiction" is rather vague, though -- probably deliberately so.

However, U:DOF underlines that UNTIL goes to great lengths to avoid or diffuse disputes between themselves and arms of sovereign governments. It maintains an Ambassadorial Corps with ambassadors and staff to all signatory nations, as well as liaisons with major law enforcement agencies. Whenever time and circumstances allow it notifies appropriate law enforcement and governments before taking action on their territory, and coordinates its activities with them.

"Currently, UNTIL-U.S. relations range from coolly cordial to extremely friendly, depending on the personnel involved and the situation." (p. 47) Page 46 also describes UNTIL and PRIMUS as "friendly rivals." To me this implies that conflicts likely do happen in the field from time to time; but if they do, the situation would almost certainly be referred to representatives of the higher-ups of both parties for resolution. Neither party would desire a diplomatic incident.

bulgarex

It's also worth noting that for many years the United States had not signed the Tribunal Treaty, due to security concerns over allowing foreign nationals to operate in American territory. One motivation behind the creation of PRIMUS was to have a domestic alternative to UNTIL so as to keep the latter out of the country. That changed in the aftermath of the Battle of Detroit in 1992, during which Doctor Destroyer devastated the city and killed 60,000 people. When the American public learned UNTIL forces in Canada were scrambled to help, but were held up at the border due to diplomatic red tape and never made it in time, public outrage forced the US government to sign the treaty.