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Building the dread(ful) PFF tank
squirrelloid
Posts: 869 Arc User
So, anniversary is rolling around once again, likely with another week or so of 2x xp, and possibly another Defender Training Camp. Time to work on new character builds! I've got all the other tank passives on someone, so PFF, it's time.
There will be a 'build' at the bottom of this, but I've got several unresolved starting issues to deal with... Help me see if it's not possible to put PFF in front of a cosmic, or at least Baby.
Let's start with PFF. It's basically a really bad form of regeneration. Regeneration already doesn't win high marks as a tank passive, but it *can* tank cosmics, mostly by just having a lot of hp and stacking a ton of defense. Regeneration's actual hp regain is too small to matter in endgame content, so it's pretty much irrelevant. PFF has about the same order of magnitude 'regeneration' to start, but it gets *worse*, not better, while you're in combat. And the 30% damage reduction for regeneration is something, but that decreases while in combat, so in terms of sustaining against a cosmic, it's pretty much irrelevant. Oh, and you can't be healed while PFF is functional, because you're not spending hp - that's the *huge* difference.
So, you could just go Str/CON/xxx like a regen tank build, and get a pile of defense from Str specs. But at that point, you might as well not have a passive at all, because you really are tanking off nothing but high hp and a bunch of defense from gear and specs. You could say you're playing a PFF tank, but PFF is just a waste of 4 advantage points at that point.
So, this wants to be a real PFF tank (to the extent that's possible). Thus, no Con SS, and probably no Str.
Note on mechanics:
I am reasonably sure defenses work as follows: 1. apply dodge avoidance, 2. apply defense, 3. apply block, 4. deal damage to shields, 5. deal remaining damage to hp. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Super Stats
-It is my understanding that Pre benefits (non-PFF) shielding abilities, and that those abilities function on top of PFF. That sounds like a good stat to have.
-PFF has a dedicated AD, which is of course on a 90s cd. Int could be a good idea.
-And we're going to need energy, so end and/or rec might be a good choice.
But which one primary?
-Pretty sure it's not int, we're a tank not a dps, and bonus threat doesn't care about enemy damage mitigation.
-Honestly can't think of a good reason for End PSS right now either. (In fact, the only argument i could ever make for End PSS is a PA build that didn't want to invest in energy SS).
-Pre is a thought, we can get bonus defense (less than Str PSS with Con, but still bonus defense), and bonus crit rate (which could power some additional damage resistance from Sentry specs). Unfortunately, that means stacking Pre isn't an option, because we'd be pushing the bonuses from secondary SSes. That's relevant because Pre both benefits shielding powers and Pre could power Compassion (which I understand also benefits bubbles) or Fear Consumption (which I presume works similarly).
-Rec is also a thought. It doesn't have the bonus defense, but it does have +18% gear defense and cdr that scales on secondary SS. (Which, considering the PFF-specific AD is essential, is tempting). Rec can also power compassion, but again, taking it as a primary SS means stacking some secondary SS
Now, as i understand it, cdr from Int adds to cdr from gear for the purposes of diminishing returns, so if utility gear pushes cooldown reduction, Int as a SS isn't going to buy us much. OTOH, Int can power EUs like MSA and some toggles if we don't end up going with compassion.
Tentatively let's start with Rec/PRE/end, and see where that gets us.
Specs
There's two possible strategies here for getting a lot of defense out of specs.
-We can just push for a lot of pure +defense specs. That means taking 2 of Guardian, Sentry, or Protector, and adding +60% defense from gear to the +18% we've already got from gear utilization.
-We can go with vindicator for the offense->defense rollover (and take one of the three specs above), and try to get a lot of offense. I think this works less well, because we're going to want threat mods in our offense gear.
So, 2 of guardian, sentry, or protector.
-Protector does have reduced cd on ADs, which is awesome. But Protector Mastery sadly gets us nothing (because if we're taking hp damage, we're already dead), and Bulwark isn't very useful when you don't have a Con SS. (Although we could run in hybrid and get bonus threat from it....)
-Sentry has +resistance aura (awesome), and some +resistance on crit specs, but we're not going to swing much crit with this build...
-Guardian, despite The Best Defense (with wanting to stack the defense on gear), seems like the worst option, however.
Assuming Distinguished gear + OV secondaries, that's 177.1 defense from gear before specs and mods. +78% ~= 315 defense. We can swap for a cosmic defense secondary with R5 defense (which i'm pretty sure ends up with more defense) + 2 R7 impact mods and should crank that to the ballpark of 400 defense. That's pretty decent.
Powers
Let's assume we want to go with Compassion or Fear Consumption for the bubble boosting. The only EU that uses Pre is Telepathic Reverberations, which is an awesome EU, but I'm not sure this wants to be a telepath. What's not clear is if using Bubbles will stack Compassion at all, even if it does boost them, so this might be a non-starter. Fear Consumption has different stack criteria, and might work better.
Lots of EUs use End and Rec. In particular, one thematic framework to grab our main powers from would be Telekinesis, and Telekinetic Reverb scales on End. Pulverizer also would work, and goes well with Force powers. (Other EUs that work with these stats include all the elemental ones, Killer Instinct, Overdrive, Unified Theory, Chi Manip, Relentless, Destructive, Supernatural Power, Wild Thing, Spirit Reverb - ie, most of them).
If we swapped over to an Int SS, both MSA and Conjuring are possible EUs.
If we don't go with compassion or fear consumption, our toggle choices are less helpful for tanking (and Pre becomes less appealing). Concentration of course scales on Int (as does Aspect of the Infernal and Spellcaster). Both Fire toggles scale on Rec. Elec scales on End. Shadow Manifestation scales on Pre.
So, here's a sketch of a build: https://aesica.net/co/herocreator.htm?v=35&n=&d=1786000000001V30003000340333043B033603FE03L900GN03FG007E00FR0bFS0Z000000002Wf22LvS0tak30000000000&e=
Any mechanics I'm badly understanding? Think I'd be able to park this in front of dino and not die immediately?
There will be a 'build' at the bottom of this, but I've got several unresolved starting issues to deal with... Help me see if it's not possible to put PFF in front of a cosmic, or at least Baby.
Let's start with PFF. It's basically a really bad form of regeneration. Regeneration already doesn't win high marks as a tank passive, but it *can* tank cosmics, mostly by just having a lot of hp and stacking a ton of defense. Regeneration's actual hp regain is too small to matter in endgame content, so it's pretty much irrelevant. PFF has about the same order of magnitude 'regeneration' to start, but it gets *worse*, not better, while you're in combat. And the 30% damage reduction for regeneration is something, but that decreases while in combat, so in terms of sustaining against a cosmic, it's pretty much irrelevant. Oh, and you can't be healed while PFF is functional, because you're not spending hp - that's the *huge* difference.
So, you could just go Str/CON/xxx like a regen tank build, and get a pile of defense from Str specs. But at that point, you might as well not have a passive at all, because you really are tanking off nothing but high hp and a bunch of defense from gear and specs. You could say you're playing a PFF tank, but PFF is just a waste of 4 advantage points at that point.
So, this wants to be a real PFF tank (to the extent that's possible). Thus, no Con SS, and probably no Str.
Note on mechanics:
I am reasonably sure defenses work as follows: 1. apply dodge avoidance, 2. apply defense, 3. apply block, 4. deal damage to shields, 5. deal remaining damage to hp. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Super Stats
-It is my understanding that Pre benefits (non-PFF) shielding abilities, and that those abilities function on top of PFF. That sounds like a good stat to have.
-PFF has a dedicated AD, which is of course on a 90s cd. Int could be a good idea.
-And we're going to need energy, so end and/or rec might be a good choice.
But which one primary?
-Pretty sure it's not int, we're a tank not a dps, and bonus threat doesn't care about enemy damage mitigation.
-Honestly can't think of a good reason for End PSS right now either. (In fact, the only argument i could ever make for End PSS is a PA build that didn't want to invest in energy SS).
-Pre is a thought, we can get bonus defense (less than Str PSS with Con, but still bonus defense), and bonus crit rate (which could power some additional damage resistance from Sentry specs). Unfortunately, that means stacking Pre isn't an option, because we'd be pushing the bonuses from secondary SSes. That's relevant because Pre both benefits shielding powers and Pre could power Compassion (which I understand also benefits bubbles) or Fear Consumption (which I presume works similarly).
-Rec is also a thought. It doesn't have the bonus defense, but it does have +18% gear defense and cdr that scales on secondary SS. (Which, considering the PFF-specific AD is essential, is tempting). Rec can also power compassion, but again, taking it as a primary SS means stacking some secondary SS
Now, as i understand it, cdr from Int adds to cdr from gear for the purposes of diminishing returns, so if utility gear pushes cooldown reduction, Int as a SS isn't going to buy us much. OTOH, Int can power EUs like MSA and some toggles if we don't end up going with compassion.
Tentatively let's start with Rec/PRE/end, and see where that gets us.
Specs
There's two possible strategies here for getting a lot of defense out of specs.
-We can just push for a lot of pure +defense specs. That means taking 2 of Guardian, Sentry, or Protector, and adding +60% defense from gear to the +18% we've already got from gear utilization.
-We can go with vindicator for the offense->defense rollover (and take one of the three specs above), and try to get a lot of offense. I think this works less well, because we're going to want threat mods in our offense gear.
So, 2 of guardian, sentry, or protector.
-Protector does have reduced cd on ADs, which is awesome. But Protector Mastery sadly gets us nothing (because if we're taking hp damage, we're already dead), and Bulwark isn't very useful when you don't have a Con SS. (Although we could run in hybrid and get bonus threat from it....)
-Sentry has +resistance aura (awesome), and some +resistance on crit specs, but we're not going to swing much crit with this build...
-Guardian, despite The Best Defense (with wanting to stack the defense on gear), seems like the worst option, however.
Assuming Distinguished gear + OV secondaries, that's 177.1 defense from gear before specs and mods. +78% ~= 315 defense. We can swap for a cosmic defense secondary with R5 defense (which i'm pretty sure ends up with more defense) + 2 R7 impact mods and should crank that to the ballpark of 400 defense. That's pretty decent.
Powers
Let's assume we want to go with Compassion or Fear Consumption for the bubble boosting. The only EU that uses Pre is Telepathic Reverberations, which is an awesome EU, but I'm not sure this wants to be a telepath. What's not clear is if using Bubbles will stack Compassion at all, even if it does boost them, so this might be a non-starter. Fear Consumption has different stack criteria, and might work better.
Lots of EUs use End and Rec. In particular, one thematic framework to grab our main powers from would be Telekinesis, and Telekinetic Reverb scales on End. Pulverizer also would work, and goes well with Force powers. (Other EUs that work with these stats include all the elemental ones, Killer Instinct, Overdrive, Unified Theory, Chi Manip, Relentless, Destructive, Supernatural Power, Wild Thing, Spirit Reverb - ie, most of them).
If we swapped over to an Int SS, both MSA and Conjuring are possible EUs.
If we don't go with compassion or fear consumption, our toggle choices are less helpful for tanking (and Pre becomes less appealing). Concentration of course scales on Int (as does Aspect of the Infernal and Spellcaster). Both Fire toggles scale on Rec. Elec scales on End. Shadow Manifestation scales on Pre.
So, here's a sketch of a build: https://aesica.net/co/herocreator.htm?v=35&n=&d=1786000000001V30003000340333043B033603FE03L900GN03FG007E00FR0bFS0Z000000002Wf22LvS0tak30000000000&e=
Any mechanics I'm badly understanding? Think I'd be able to park this in front of dino and not die immediately?
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Comments
The death knell of PFF to me is the lack of upfront healing helping the shield, at least when content is balanced around having committed healers/Support, but I guess you gotta work w/ what you have. Regardless, I can't help you much here, but I do wish you luck in trying to get it to work somehow.
Oh, and it's not a major correction, but TK Reverb scales mostly w/ Rec, instead of End (the in-game tooltip is wrong).
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
You mentioned cosmics, when considering PFF for cosmics you need to consider the regen only. Which means you need to be blocking once every 3 secs for the double tick. If you get the double tick regen is not that bad really. If you miss the double tick....
If your tanking you need to go Con or Str for knockback resistance, no way around that
It's not all shields but PFF is affected by these different mitigation forms.
Dodge is no longer affected by attack speed so you need it to be 100%. So your going to go for dodge/avoidance or defense. No need to worry about trying to stack both.
Nope, it affects the base PFF value, not the regen. Also it doesnt affect stuff like the shield from Defense Combo and similar abilities
If your using PFF Field Surge might be better than Resurgence as a reset maybe. I think you need 2 though, something for burst phases like Masterful Dodge as well as a reset
You get bonus Energy on block. Endurance is a good secondary SS for tanks for this reason
Str or Con for knockback resist
From memory, if the shield is not full, PFF's regen stacks Compassion. I think you need to look at a more offensive form though to assist with threat generation
Just food for thought, dino hits for about 28k, lets say you compare Defiance, Invulnerability and PFF at about the gear level you described;
28,000 Damage in every 2 secs | Defense = 80% | Block = 300% | Defiance = 130 | Invulnerability = 75% and -130 a hit | PFF = 750 every 3 secs (1500 because we are a tank and blocking)
Defiance = (28000/(1+0.8+1.3))/(1+3)=2258
Invulnerability = ((28000/(1+0.8+0.75))/(1+3))-130=2615
PFF = ((28000/(1+0.8))/(1+3))-1000=2888
I single healer can output more than 3k a sec easily, so there is no reason why a PFF tank couldnt tank dino in the gear you described as long as your catching that double full value regen on block
In my experience using The Gun-isher as a PFF tank at the Cosmics, pretty much don't even calculate your PFF shielding into the mix. Oh sure, you'll get a little bit of it back between their attacks, but otherwise pretty negligible. Except with Baby Dino. Of course, even a straight up dps char can "tank" Baby with sufficient heals and a Challenge advantage.
I've survived and successfully Main Tanked Kigatilik and Qwyjibo with this character only because I had plenty of heals coming my way. For these 2, I didn't even need AoRP to survive. Just a good rotation of dps/threat + block.
Dino is a different story. I can't attempt to Main Tank Dino unless there are: good heals AND a good AoRP that I'm receiving. Simply put, her Maw/bite attack is too much for me to block and survive. Maybe if my PFF was full. But, within a few seconds of any Cosmic fight my PFF is down to gone or just a sliver, between hits.
As for gear, I think I've acquired 1 Distinguished piece. Otherwise he is in basic blues Primaries and either Purple or Cosmic primary stat secondaries.
-=-=-=-=-=-(CO in-game handle: @WarCan )-=-=-=-=-=-
"Okay, you're DEAD, what do you do NEXT?"
You will never get knocked at a cosmic if you block in time. (Except Ape's wireframe slam, but no knock resistance will help you there. If you're otherwise getting knocked at a cosmic, you're doing it wrong). So no, not necessary.
It's not like I'm going to take a PFF build into TT. That's suicide. And in anything easier than cosmics, it won't matter if you get knocked as a tank.
I don't think you're actually responding to anything i said here. This was a general claim about mechanics. Of course you only invest in dodge if you can get 100% as a tank.
I've heard it claimed it affects things like Mindful Reinforcement and Protection Field's total shielding amount. I will of course test this.
I'm reasonably sure it doesn't affect PFF's base amount, but if it does, I'll be pleasantly surprised.
When i said PFF has a dedicated AD, Field Surge is what I was referencing. Resurgence is of course useless.
:rolleyes:
Regen doesn't stack compassion (tested). Doubtful PFF's regen will stack it, although again, testing will happen.
Defense should actually be pushing 100% reduction in damage if it can hit the 400 point. Plus another 6% from sentry aura + up to 16% from other sentry advantages (iirc).
That said, 2888 seems like something that could easily be absorbed by Protection Field.
If you take Con, you might as well skip the passive entirely and save the power slot and advantage points. Cause you can totally tank even dino on nothing but Str/con/xxx and defense gear. (That's basically what a regen tank is doing, and I've seen a regen tank be MT at dino). If you're getting healed, it's basically a failure at being a PFF tank.
I'm ultimately willing to accept 'it can't be done' as a conclusion. But once you go down the Con road, you're abandoning any pretense of actually using PFF to tank.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
I'm ultimately willing to accept 'it can't be done' as a conclusion. But once you go down the Con road, you're abandoning any pretense of actually using PFF to tank.
The taking of Con as SS is a major point when it comes to Regen and PFF and trying to Cosmic tank. It's the same for EVERY tank short of Lightning Reflexes. At some point, you WILL take a big hit, if not several in a row. If your health pool is low, you're dead. You can't argue that.
I've tanked all of the Cosmics with each Defensive passive with the exception of Lightning Reflexes. My point is that Regen and PFF are basically like having no passive. You are going to live or die based on the other things: health pool, mitigation, defense and ... support healing.
That is a foolish comment about " If you're getting healed, it's basically a failure at being a PFF tank." EVERY SINGLE TANK needs support healing at a Cosmic fight. Every one.
If you are trying to figure out a way to have a stronger, better PFF, then ... join the club. Check the forums. Plenty of players have commented on ways for the Devs to make it better. But, you need to understand that WE as players have tried all things already to make it viable. Don't accept this as failure on your or our part. It is what it is. I'll keep my Regen and PFF tanks running and trying, but I realize that their passive doesn't mean much at Cosmic fights.
-=-=-=-=-=-(CO in-game handle: @WarCan )-=-=-=-=-=-
"Okay, you're DEAD, what do you do NEXT?"
R3 Shields do not grant knock Immunity. It is suggested you take Str or Con as well to continue to stack Knock resistance for one simple reason, the shield is not enough.
Yes I did. You just didn't understand. Here is an example Defensive Combo, here is another example Eye of the Storm. These types of shields do not scale with Pre or more specifically bonus healing.
Unless its affected by attack speed. At one point I tank Mega Destroyer at lvl 14 because of the multiplicative value of avoidance, defense and block. This was possible primarily because at that time dodge chance scaled with attack speed. I don't know you. I don't know if you are an old player like me who may not be aware you cant stack all 3 reliably for crazy levels of damage reduction anymore or a new player who goes off on some tangent thinking its a good idea with how mitigation works now. My comment is advising if you are looking at dodge to go for 100% and why.
Prepare to be pleasant
My experience tanking cosmics with PFF leads me to believe your going to be taking HP damage.
Resurgence is % of total HP, its always good as a reset. I'm unsure if the AD bubble (not the PFF heal) is affected by defense/dodge/block, if its not is Unbreakable better on a PFF build? maybe, I'm not going to bother to calculate
You look silly doing this
I don't know why your asking for advise then. Just test it yourself. I have given you my results "from memory" meaning 'not recently, but it used too'. Do what you will with this gift I have taken the time to give you.
No you wont. 400% Defense is not close to 100% mitigation.
Original Value / (1+v) = x
v = Defense
x = Damage Taken
100/(1+4) = 20
Or in other words 400% Defense = 80% reduction.
Defense, avoidance and block are on separate diminishing returns and have multiplicative value to each other. So again to further clarify those calculations, Defiance ended it a 92% reduction. It was 300% block and 210% defense. If that was 510% it would have been 5490 damage not 2258 damage. That's a big difference.
Your not using Protection Field in this time frame between hits, your using a high damage single target attack with Challenge to hold threat. Holding threat is the actual job. Not being tough to kill.
According to who? This is tanking cosmics, why should PFF require no assistance to tank when other defensive passive do. This again goes back to what I originally said, you should be thinking of it only as the regen per 3 secs if you want to succeed at tanking cosmics with PFF because you should need to be healed, its a cosmic.
Can we summarized this into your above position about wanting to tank cosmics with PFF and no HP pool?
If so Start by looking at Defensive Combo. With that and all other other work you've looked into with spec trees etc, I think you'll find yourself taking about 3-400 damage a second over PFF's shield regen on average if you can get in 2 hits from Defensive Combo and block every 3rd sec for the double tick. Not sure where you could take it from there.
In what content? But you're right, it's not R3 shields, it's just blocking in time even with an R1 block. Full knock immunity to all cosmic attacks that knock except Ape's bubble (which would be dino's jump and ape's fire breath). If you're getting knocked at a cosmic, block earlier.
For endgame content, simply blocking in time is sufficient to negate most knocks (or the knocks simply can't be mitigated). The only exception i can think of is BF's knock up in TT, not because blocking fast enough won't 100% stop the knock (it will), but because blocking against BF is a really bad idea (and I'm never taking a PFF tank into TT anyway, so irrelevant).
For any content that isn't endgame content, it doesn't matter if you get knocked. (What content do you think extra knock resistance is needed for?)
FWIW, the distinguished defense piece that isn't dodge focused also has knock resistance on it.
Don't get pedantic if you're going to get it wrong.
1. "Defense" isn't given in percent. It's given as a flat number. 400 defense, not 400% defense.
2. Defense turns into "Damage Reduction" at a rate pretty close to 4:1. 400 defense ~= 100% damage reduction. (Hover over your defense statistic on your character sheet, and it will show you what % damage reduction you're getting).
3. Your formula is correct, except v is "damage reduction", not defense.
4. Thus, 100% damage reduction => 1/(1+1) = 1/2 damage. (Before blocking and other mitigation).
5. And yes, layers apply separately. So if block was 300% damage reduction and regular damage reduction was 100%, it would be 1/(1+1) * 1/(1+3) = 1/2 * 1/4 = 1/8 damage.
I would be satisfied if the best that can be managed is soaking. Finding time to get a hit in will depend on how long it takes to cast relevant bubbles.
If you're taking significant hp damage, then you aren't tanking off PFF, you're tanking off your hp. And, well, i can do that without any slotted passive at all. (It's basically what a regen tank is doing). If it's going to count as actually tanking off PFF, it needs to involve no significant damage to hp.
Assistance is great. Other people using shields or providing AoRP/AoPM/AoAC is great. (Or more sentry auras - i wonder if those stack...). But the whole point is to tank using the shield instead of hp.
That would be an accurate statement of my goal.
I take it this means Defensive Combo's shield is after damage mitigation. Good to know. I hope all the other shields work the same way.
This is how knocks work,
A power has a base knock strength, its modified by the toon/npc's knock multipliers to a final knock value
Original Knock Value / (1+v) = x
v = Knock Resist
x = Knock Damage Taken
The distance your knocked is this final value modified by the map your on
This means you can be knocked through an R3 shield. Not impossible, not just latency or slow reflexes. The tooltip might be saying 200% resist but that doesn't mean 200% or immunity. Knock immunity is impossible, you will always have a fraction of a number. Did you ever wonder how advantages and specializations work on "knock immune" enemies like cosmics? Did you ever wonder why you get knocked differing distances?
This is (effectively but not exactly) how all CC effects work in Champions, the CC buff immunity is an invisible buff that can only occurs once a second and negates the CC effect before refreshing each second if your still at those 3 stacks. That's a special case added to remove CC from PVP by a developer lacking imagination.
Take it on gear if you want, I don't care but blocks don't grant knock immunity.
Because they don't, if your tanking its suggested to take more than just the block power.
: )
M8, this is an example of being pedantic
It's is not a flat rating it's a growth curve.
Here;
100 = 1/(1+1) = 0.5
200 = 1/(1+2) = 0.334
300 = 1/(1+3) = 0.25
400 = 1/(1+4) = 0.2
500 = 1/(1+5) = 0.167
600 = 1/(1+6) = 0.143
700 = 1/(1+7) = 0.125
800 = 1/(1+8) = 0.112
900 = 1/(1+9) = 0.1
At 900 its still 10% off 100%. Its also impossible to hit 100%. 80% is no where near 100%. You gave your own math, what is 400 defense in your own math? Is it close to 100 or is it 80?
You agree to the math, why agree to it if you don't agree to it? The tooltip is wrong. This calculation was given by a dev during beta and it matches testing and logic if you look at things like TK shields R3 being 410 physical defense.
No its defense, the calculation is the reduction. Don't get pedantic if you're going to get it wrong.
Exactly, or as per my original examples;
Defiance = (28000/(1+0.8+1.3))/(1+3)=2258
So again 400 defense does not equal around about 100%. Either the tooltip saying approx 4.3 to 1 ratio is wrong or the calculation you agreed is right is wrong. It can't be both
Then it needs to be affected by healing. Remove the regen except when blocking and make it affected by healing.
If all shields are now affected by mitigation, which would be a great change.
To summarize;
- Blocks do not grant knock immunity
- Defense is a growth curve, the tooltip is wrong
Unfortunately, not all knocks in the game work the same. If all knocks were as you said, you'd see tanks getting knocked at Dino and Ape all the time, and you generally don't (unless they screw up).
There are four types of knocks:
1. Knocks which work as you describe. (Most mob and player knock powers).
2. Knocks which do work as you describe, but which can also be completely prevented by blocking fast enough (regardless of block level). Example: Dino's jump (and iirc, at least some of Gravitar's bubbles). (For these attacks, there's basically two block points - a point to prevent the effect - whether its a knock or something else, and a point to reduce the damage. You can actually block early enough to avoid the effect, but then stop blocking and fail to reduce the initial damage. I've done this on both Dino's jump (full damage, no knock) and her toxic AoE (full spike damage, no ongoing unreduceable DoT), sometimes intentionally. It also works on Dino's hold, which is sufficient since there's no damage component, but it's generally not worth the risk of getting held if you time it wrong).
3. Knocks which can be completely prevented by blocking, but are not subject to knock resistance at all. (meteor cylinders at ape, and iirc, ape's fire breath knock, although i haven't exactly tried testing it extensively).
4. Knocks which cannot be prevented no matter what you do. (Example: BF's knock to after jumping)
Anyway, those category 1 knocks? Nothing to worry about for most tanks, because none of the scary knocks are category 1.
Pedantic, but also correct.
It's not defense. Okay, i got the term slightly wrong, it's "damage resistance", not "damage reduction", but it's most definitely not 'defense'. Defense becomes Damage Resistance in an ~4:1 ratio.
Please go into the game and open up your character sheet. Find your defense value, mouse over it. It'll say what "% all damage resistance" that defense gives you. My Regen tank currently has 348.8 defense, and the mouse over tells me that gets me 82% all damage resistance. If i remove a gear piece and go down to 298 defense, I'm instead getting 70% all damage resistance. Note, that's a change of 50 defense -> 12% change in damage resistance, which is pretty darn close to 4:1. (It's not precise, but close enough for napkin math).
That 'damage resistance' is what goes into the calculation. Not defense. Don't confuse 'defense' with 'damage resistance', they're different things. (Defense simply supplies some damage resistance).
I completely agree with the math, with the stipulation that it's 'damage resistance' that goes into that calculation.
Except you're using 'damage resistance' and not defense in that calculation. No tank has only 80 defense. Heck, you'd be hard pressed to find a level 40 dps with only 80 defense.
And yes, 400 defense is pretty close to 100% damage resistance. (It's a little shy i think, but napkin math).
And i've been pretty up front that damage received is never fully mitigated. 100% is just a +1 in the denominator, and i showed that exact calculation.
Which is true;
Defiance = (28000/(1+0.8+1.3))/(1+3)=2258
or
Defiance = (28000/(1+(0.8/4)+(1.3/4)))/(1+(3/4))=whatever
The top version was given by a Dev in beta and it apparently matches with Cryptic's previous game COH. It also matches with extensive testing done by many people over many years. The tooltip is wrong.
If you think Defense is at a ratio of 4:1. Then your own calculations you say are correct are not
1/(1+1) = 1/2
Nope
1/(1+(1/4))=0.8
1/(1+0.25)=0.8
1/(1+1) * 1/(1+3) = 1/2 * 1/4 = 1/8 damage
Nope
1/(1+(1/4)) * 1/(1+(3/4)) = 0.8*0.57 = 0.456
Tooltip is wrong, go test it. Theirs a laser room, you can strip gear and see
A denominator sits below a numerator in a fraction, wrong term
The variables name is Defense. That's what its called on the character sheet. The effect of the calculation is a reduction in the damage you take. The amount reduced is the resistance you achieved with the variable at that total. Defense is the correct term and another pointer to your additional complexity being incorrect.
Also your points on knocks don't conflict with my explanation;
- You have a base resist, blocking multiplier with base value reduces the knock value to below 1 so you see no effect
- Knock resist has nothing to do with damage resist. Knock value is not the damage value
- Yes the engine does things in sequence. Most commonly its damage then effects one after another and if the state to apply those affects is no longer true, some don't happen
- My support toon often gets knocked through block on meteor cylinders. This can happen even when i'm holding the block 2-3 sec's before it lands. My Knock resist is to low on this character. If you have not stacked more or the same amount of knock resist as this character who always resist the meteor cylinder when blocking then all this proves is you need a decent amount
- BF's knock can be reduced, knock resist stacking toon's consistently get throw less then damage or healing toon's
On to your passive aggressive attacks, complaining to someone about being pedantic, followed directly by a statement that is pedantic make you look petty and small minded
You've stopped making any sense, in large part because you are misusing game terms so badly you can't even understand where you're wrong. Please go in game, mouse over defense, and tell me exactly what it says when you do that.
Defense is not in that formula at all. "Damage resistance" is. Defense -> %Damage Resistance at ~4:1 ratio. So you don't divide in that formula by 4, you've already divided by 4 when you get to that formula. (Again, napkin math, it isn't precisely 4:1, that's an approximation).
So, in the hypothetical situation where a character has 400 defense, that becomes ~100% damage resistance, and thus receives 1/(1+1) = 1/2 damage. (Which is precisely what I meant when i said 'add 1 to the denominator'.)
If you want to use "Defense" in the calculation, the actual defense value on your character sheet, then you need to divide by 4. (And by 100, since you're converting to a %). ie, 1/(1+400/(4*100)) = 1/2.
That additional level of complexity definitely exists. And it's easily verified by opening up your character sheet and mousing over defense.
And if you still think defense is in that formula you've presented, please explain where the 0.8 comes from in your calculation. Cause no character in the game has "0.8 defense" on their character sheet.
First, if a knock can knock you when you're blocking, then no amount of knock resistance will reduce your chance of being knocked to zero. There will always be a chance you get knocked. This is pretty easy to verify. Have two characters, one with a lot of str and other knock resistance (call this KRT, or Knock Resistant Toon), one with no bonus knock resistance (call this Knock Me, or KM. KRT will have more knock resistance not blocking than KM will have blocking. KRT will still be occasionally knocked on any knockable attack. (Sometimes they won't be, and sometimes it'll be a slight slide instead of a major knock, because Knock Resist vs. Knock affects a probability calculation and the severity of the knock, but chance never goes to zero).
No disagreement.
if you got knocked, you didn't block early enough. Meteor cylinders do not care about your knock resistance at all. Either you blocked in time or you didn't. (The 'block by' point is really early).
I've got characters with 600+ knock resistance, way more than a support with only block to boost their knock resist. If they don't block, they still always go flying from Meteor cylinders. But my supports with no knock resistance never get knocked if i block in time. Those facts should be impossible if meteor cylinders only looked at knock resistance.
Pretty sure this isn't true. My dps i've done TT with gets pulled to BF no matter how far she is, and she has well over 500% knock resistance. (I'm talking specifically about his 'knock to' after he jumps. His knock up head butt can definitely be resisted).
We both agree on the math. Your entire complaint on the defense calculation has basically been that you don't think i'm using the right terms, which is exceedingly pedantic. The fact that you're (1) wrong on what the terms are, and (2) don't even understand that's what we're disagreeing on is what's really distressing. Petty? Any reasonable person in your place would have understood what's going on here and admitted they were wrong in their second post.
Just hit 40 - This is the monstrously stupid build I'm currently running:
https://aesica.net/co/herocreator.htm?v=35&n=&d=17860taYZKJL1130003000340333043B033603FE03FK08FR05FS0ZFG00GN034G04LH00LA002Wf22LvS0tak30000000000&e=
Stacking Pre in blue gear atm.
Fear Consumption scales on Rec. This is obviously a problem, since I don't want to stack rec. So I swapped it for compassion...
Stacking compassion is... stupid hard, but doable. Hence the dark transfusion + healing adv on telekinetic shard.
(There's a viable argument i should switch to Pre/REC/end instead of Rec/PRE/end. That gets me more defense and crit chance, but loses me some amount of bonus shielding and the faster recharge from Rec, plus gives me no good spec mastery. It also lets me use Fear Consumption, which is much easier to stack... That the power build would be less stupid stacking Rec instead of Pre is probably a good argument to do so. I'll look into retconning again as I gear up GCR gear).
It's getting hard to find a reason why i'm using an end SS instead of Ego or Dex. I really wish tk rec scaled primarily on End rather than Rec.
Not convinced by Force Eruption - don't think i'll have a chance to use the damage boost advantage while tanking anything significant. (Admittedly it helped leveling).
Some important notes on mechanics
-Mindful Reinforcement and Protection Field both happen after adjusting damage for defense (good!)
-Mindful Reinforcement gets 'spent' before Protection Field
-Shielding yourself, even with Mindful Reinforcement, does not stack compassion (sigh).
-You can self-stack compassion off Dark Transfusion and Mindful Reinforcement, but you need to get the healing tick to align well with the damage from DT, which means its hit or miss.
-PFF regen doesn't do a damn thing for compassion, as expected.
Tank Test
Tried soaking in front of dino, and also (by necessity cause the BT died during the initial pull) BTing.
Soaking was kinda lolful, although part of it was figuring out what could be done between dino bites and what couldn't. Feels like TK shards is what actually wants challenge on it.
Made it over 10s in front of baby before getting hosed by bad bubble timings between baby and momma.
Currently at around 200ish defense and thus ~50% damage resistance (with another +6% Sentry Aura). TK shield R3 is +410% damage resistance for physical.
1/(1+0.56) * 1/(1+4.1) = 1/7.956 damage taken while blocking. At 28k for dino bite, that would be 3519 damage. My protection field absorbs over 2k, which should bring the bite down to ~2 shield regen ticks (which, with the bonus one while blocking, should be enough).
If i can get that up to 100% damage resistance, it'll be ~1/10 damage while blocking, or 2.8k, at which point Protection Field alone brings it down to less than a single tick of shield regen. At that point, making some attacks or buffering shields for multiple hits becomes possible.
I should go try tanking a Mega D.