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NPC Attacks which are "unfair" for gameplay.

deadman20deadman20 Posts: 1,494 Arc User
edited April 16 in Gameplay Bugs
As per request to keep one thread on-topic, this one is made to list the attacks of NPCs which can be considered unfair for gameplay. To define that a bit more, unfair in this circumstance refers to a situation where the player has little to no control over putting forth a response to an incoming attack. This can include, but is not limited to: Attacks which have no visual indicator before its use (either by wireframe or other telegraphing means), mechanics which are unclear or not explicitly revealed, or abilities which may be overperforming in their intended function.

Some of the powers listed may be "unfair" based on opinion, but the goal is to identify powers which feel oppressive in an unintentional manner. This is NOT necessarily a thread for bug reporting on specific attacks, but should be used to identify mechanics which may need tuning to provide a more fair gameplay experience against NPC combatants.

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NPC Shotgun auto-attack - Currently, several munitions-based villain groups utilize a shotgun that functions as their default attack. This ability has no visual charge-up time and very consistently knocks heroes around. The knock effect shouldn't be placed on an attack that is used so frequent as this one.

VIPER Rocket Pack - VIPER Powered Armors have a very well-known attack which suddenly, and for no real apparent reason, fires off rocket pods which instantly knock their target away. This attack isn't telegraphed, is instantaneous, and feels very random in firing off, even doing so in multiple volleys, resulting in moments where the poor player targeted by the Powered Armor can be knocked multiple times before the player even touches the ground. - Apparently this isn't a thing any more.

ARGENT Cyborg Chest Beam - The Chest Beam from the ARGENT Cyborgs, upon successfully knocking anything caught in its area, will instantly heal the Cyborg to full, or near-full health.

Mechassassin's Tanglecoil Launcher - Mechassassin's moveset is nearly a replica of Black Talon's. Black Talon's Tanglecoil is visually telegraphed, allowing the player to react to it. Mechassassin's Tanglecoil is not. It is instantly cast and more often than not results in the people in front of the launcher to become held.

Master Villain Default - He has no attacks whatsoever, which is unfair to him. He's more or less just a walking powerhouse dummy.​​
Post edited by deadman20 on
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Comments

  • chaelkchaelk Posts: 7,727 Arc User
    you missed the Demon people who can spam the knockback attack even if they are stunned.
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  • bringmeaslabbringmeaslab Posts: 135 Arc User
    There's also the Psi MV attack that stuns through block.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,927 Arc User
    edited April 12
    But in almost all those cases you can prevent those attacks by offensively CCing the target then killing them before they can even do anything. This game rewards offensive play more-so then defensive play. It's kinda like Sekiro in that way. As for Mechassassin are you sure about that? I don't remember getting stunned by him unless I forgot to block it... maybe I'm thinking of black talon. Anyway mechassassin isn't really enough of a threat for his hold to matter u3u

    Also none of those are bugs, except the last one.​​
  • bluhmanbluhman Posts: 2,209 Arc User
    Destroids + VIPER soldiers have Rifle Butt, entirely untelegraphed stun on a henchman-rank enemy. Makes fighting them in melee distance much more dangerous than it has any right to be.
    awol until further notice
  • guyhumualguyhumual Posts: 2,093 Arc User
    welcome to Knockbacks Online, the game where you can experience being knocked back, stunned, held, debuffed and other annoying things outside of boss fights by low level mobs and henchmen. If you enjoy the heroic feeling of not being able to do anything for large portions of almost every fight (because all mobs have these stupid stall tactics) than this is the game for you!
  • alfa1777alfa1777 Posts: 7 Arc User
    The jack foll stab attack, sometime him attack time end but he take more time to cast or don't made some indicator and instakill you if don't block
  • bluhmanbluhman Posts: 2,209 Arc User
    edited April 15
    from https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline#/discussion/1210583/my-hot-take-on-why-knocks-need-to-get-redone :
    Knocks that enemies resist will build a stack of knock resistance, while holds you resist, either through blocking or passively through chance, don't.

    You don't get hold/knock resist if you succeed in playing by the game's mechanics. Why?

    This is a big point because gaining full-resist to knock/hold is 15 seconds of guaranteed uptime for an enemy or player. When it's an enemy usually they gain this benefit within seconds of a fight starting in some situations because certain powersets (martial arts i.e. with Inexorable Tides or Crashing Wave Kick) can reach this threshold almost instantly, even if an enemy is resistant or blocking. There's also massive variance of how much time a given hold or knock will create an opening. Is that threshold going to be reached after 1 minute when a Manipulator has planned out their hold on an enemy in advance? Or will it be reached in 8 seconds after some scrub smacks some enemy with Headbutt 3 times in a row without any consideration of the consequences?

    Meanwhile players only gain these stacks if they are affected by the knock or hold. This is unfair. Some enemy groups put out knocks and holds at a rate equal to, or perhaps higher, than players in some situations - consider a mob with 2 Qliphothic Seducer Demons or whatever, those are two separate entities that perform a charged knock followed by a charged hold, and you usually are then fighting even more enemies on top of that that are dealing damage at the same time, so you're either:
    • forced to block their knock and hold, and while you take reduced damage during this period that's also time spent not dealing damage to the enemy. Lost time, and you are no closer to being able to counterattack if they decide to do it again.
    • eat the knock and hold, gaining the stacks, but also suffering from increased damage during your downtime, all while not being able to attack. Lost time.
    Why are players not allowed to just have uncontested uptime where they have an opportunity to lay into enemies? There are some mobs that will straight-up just 100%-to-death you because they're forcing you to constantly be blocking, or else you suffer one knock or one hold and then that's enough of an opening for the rest of the mob to just wombo-combo your entire health bar to empty, GG, you lose, good day sir. BUT AT LEAST YOU HAVE ONE STACK OF KNOCK RESIST RIGHT?

    Even VIPER power armors who are blocking gain resistance stacks when they block. Why can't players? Who thought this was a good idea?
    Post edited by bluhman on
    awol until further notice
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    I assume you meant knocks, not holds? There's no random resistance to holds. However, as far as blocking goes, you only generate resistance if the game tried to apply the effect to you in the first place, and most NPC knocks are completely canceled by blocking (so they don't generate resistance).
  • bluhmanbluhman Posts: 2,209 Arc User
    I assume you meant knocks, not holds? There's no random resistance to holds. However, as far as blocking goes, you only generate resistance if the game tried to apply the effect to you in the first place, and most NPC knocks are completely canceled by blocking (so they don't generate resistance).

    Both really. It's a way bigger issue for knocks for the reason you just said. I think I focused in on the quote I selected incorrectly for emphasis since that second quote cropped out the knock part by accident.

    Holds are more consistent both in where they're being used by enemies as well as how well blocking actually fucking works against them. Similar arguments still work against it though because it's still a case of uncontested resistance against holds versus having to spend precious time blocking, or else eating attacks from 6 other simultaneous sources.
    awol until further notice
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    Both knocks and holds are consistent for blocking: you have to start blocking before the attack finishes charging. The problem is that a lot of knocks are tap effects.
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,618 Arc User
    edited April 15
    A few of the alert enemies have an attack with a vfx that looks like 3 big red scratch marks and that removes all your knock/hold resist stacks. I remember Ao'Qephoth's minions using it, but I could be mistaken. I have no idea about the attack name and don't really feel up on checking it.

    Another thing I always thought was unfair was Gravitar doing Force Geyser > hold AoE > yellow AoE. Imo fall damage should break all holds. She'd still be able to do Force Geyser > yellow AoE of course, which isn't much better.
    Post edited by aiqa on
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    aiqa wrote: »
    Another thing I always thought was unfair was Gravitar doing Force Geyser > hold AoE > yellow AoE. Imo fall damage should break all holds.
    I like force geyser -> black hole. Due to the way knockdown works in this game, you are incapable of standing up while being repelled around by the black hole, so you remain knocked down for its entire duration and then stand up just in time to be unable to deal with her next attack, whatever that is. I also like being knocked into irregular terrain where the game can't figure out how to make you stand up so you just remain there wiggling permanently.

    You should reset your position to vertical (and able to act) 2-3s after being knocked, regardless of what's happening. Even if you're in midair.
  • qawsadaqawsada Posts: 493 Arc User
    Anything relating to the Harmon Labs Custom Alert would be unfair. To a lesser extend, Fire and Ice simply because you cannot see the tell of the boss if there are a bunch of FX, especially that Foxbat Visual Aura, obscuring the posture of the bosses.
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