Problems with Onslaught Villian Instafarmers

tilarta

I've been suspicious about the motivations of those who collect Guardian Tokens for a while now and after today, maybe they're not just theoretical suppositions.

A player appeared in zone chat requesting that someone transform into an OV and get instakilled by a turret so they could complete the daily Guardian mission.
I responded to the request with the statement I would transform into an OV, but the player in question would have to help me gain my 50 Villian tokens first, that it wasn't going to be a free kill.
I don't know what they said in response exactly, but it was two words and the first one was blocked by the profanity filter.
Then this player kept making the same request and I don't think anyone else offered to help them.

I find this request extremely arrogant and selfish, that they expected me to give up my once per day transformation so they could get an easy completion and not give something back in return?
I don't have access to the system that grants a transformation for 100 Guardian tokens, so once a day is all I get.

Also, for about a week now, I've made the callout when I transformed into an OV, stated I would not be passive and nobody showed up.
In the end, I stopped offering and now just go around defeating UNTIL Power Armor suits.
But I had noticed whenever someone says Passive OV, the players will instantly arrive.

And the few players who did show up walk backwards towards the turret and when they are at risk of being defeated, they instantly vanish from the map.
Whether they logged out or switched maps, I do not know.

In light of all of this, I'm thinking the Guardian token system is just encouraging selfish behavior, that players want to earn their prizes by preventing the OV player from earning theirs.

jaazaniah1

The devs are well aware that OV is a collusion fest. Probably too much effort involved to try to turn it in to anything else, so it will be what it will be.

rtma

This isn't a CO issue, this is the nature of the biological organism (Potentially others types of life forms but for this response it's something to relate in context, Humanity, since we're interacting with them.), the base level drives and unconsciousness demonstrate this consistently cause we're distracted trying to maintain/fulfill the mortal circumstance and subjectivity, if someone doesn't choose to care then they wont, no matter the coercion, even if consented under duress, it's not a genuine choice just look at the system we're in, based on the same principle, we all have a choice to help each other cause it's a good thing, but we're encouraged to think of ourselves cause it's easier, profitable and even at other's expense for personal gain, why else does anyone do what they do? cause it gets them what they want, if they don't then the unconscious animal imposes itself, negativity spreads, we continue to stand divided, you form a collaboration on the basis of wants then compassion, so, question is, what do you choose?

warcanch

I only offer myself as OV up once I've done my daily for the VT. Then I'm fully passive and have announced such.

As to players who are standing there and didn't announce, well, I may attack so they can get their VTs if I'm not busy doing other stuff or I see the @name as someone that "gives as well as receives".​​

nacito

eh yeah, even when you're like... let's say you need VTs and you beg ask for them in chat, one or two come, then you're done and say "I'm diving" then suddenly other 5 people appear out of nowhere, it's a bit annoying but oh well...​​

flyingfinn

I responded to the request with the statement I would transform into an OV, but the player in question would have to help me gain my 50 Villian tokens first, that it wasn't going to be a free kill.

I was present at that time, i answered 'I will volunteer as tribute!' , but then Alert popped up and i missed the after math.
I take part sometimes when someone needs hero kills/offers passive OV or just hop in OV fight sometimes. I don't know why, haven't really been doing any of the 'Play Both Sides' mission. Not my can of soup i guess.

markhawkman

I think they should make it so that standing too close to a turret means you lose the battling supervillains status. People do that way too often. Tag you then stand on a turret so you can't retaliate.

nbkxs

Standard ov practice = do your daily on the Onslaught targets, come back, and dive to give everyone their guardian mission. That's how it works.

shadowolf505

It's not how everyone does it. Some people do other things and that's just life.

markhawkman

nbkxs wrote: »

Standard ov practice = do your daily on the Onslaught targets, come back, and dive to give everyone their guardian mission. That's how it works.

Or... kill 3 targets, then come to RenCen to finish collecting VT. Massacring players can rack up the VT quite fast.

Guess why I'm usually playing as an OV? Because I want sweet loot like Onslaught Gloves of the Slicer, or Sniper, etc.... If massacring hundreds of players is the quickest way to get that loot... PREPARE TO DIE!!!!!

nbkxs

That's too risky most of the time, I mean you can do that, if there's enough people around, but it's much more reliable to kill enough goons, and targets to finish the mission. Then you can come back and pick off people standing around. A lot of time coming back to the city there's no one in sight. Maybe we should make a channel call OV Trades. Everyone in channel comes, and just relentlessly feeds the ov, until there's 15 seconds left, then they dive, then the next person goes. It would be a good way to get massive VT.

tilarta

Having a dedicated channel would be a good idea, that way we could be certain it would be full of players who are genuinely going to help OVs get their Villian tokens and OVs who will dive to give players their Guardian tokens.
There would have to be conditions of course, like if a player doesn't co-operate from either role, then they are kicked from the channel, because it's not helpful to have someone in the channel who isn't interested in participating fairly.

Here is my suggestion thread for how the OV mission can be modified to encourage fair play:
OV Adjustment for Fair Play.

markhawkman wrote: »

Guess why I'm usually playing as an OV? Because I want sweet loot like Onslaught Gloves of the Slicer, or Sniper, etc.

Some of those items look fairly useful/interesting.
If the circumstances in collecting the Villian tokens were more favorable, I might be interested in continuing collecting the currency after I unlock the Villian power I am seeking.
At the moment thought, due to the complications, after that goal is achieved, I won't be continuing as an OV token collector.

pantagruel01

Honestly, guardian tokens should only be given out for damage done by players. At least force people to grind their way through 3m hp to get their loot. Or change to a time-based thing. For example:

• 25% chance (modified by attack speed) to gain 1 gt when attacking an OV with a non-energy-builder. 6s ICD after gain one.
• Non-energy builder (i.e. slot 2+) OV attacks have a chance to grant 1 GT to targets.

spinnytop

rtma wrote: »

This isn't a CO issue, this is the nature of the biological organism...

tilarta wrote: »

I've been suspicious about the motivations of those who collect Guardian Tokens for a while now and after today, maybe they're not just theoretical suppositions.

tilarta wrote: »

In light of all of this, I'm thinking the Guardian token system is just encouraging selfish behavior, that players want to earn their prizes by preventing the OV player from earning theirs.

Geez, you make it sound all sinister or something. The real problem is that the OV system isn't setup very well. What's supposed to be happening is that while you're out there fighting Until Defenders, players should be showing up and fighting you. There's a few problems that prevent this. For one, there's so many OV spots, and OVs can defeat the Defenders so quickly, that it's a huge pain in the butt to actually find the OV. Second, it's not very satisfying because you're not actually doing anything to prevent the OV from defeating the Defender, you're just dpsing them and probably getting blown up a bunch, and trying to keep up when the OV heads to a new spot. Third, the mechanism by which OVs break your block is kind tricky to defend against due to poor feedback, and it can lead to players basically just getting blown up without being able to do much about it - it's also not very intuitive since you basically need to let yourself get hit to not take further damage.

Also, it's not the Guardians that are enforcing the current OV meta, it's the OV players. OVs are the ones that show up in Rencen and let people dps them for tokens and then turret dive. Guardians have no power to enforce this behavior, it's solely OVs that do. If OVs stopped giving tokens away like this and instead all decided they would just use all their OV time to farm Defenders, then Guardian players would be forced to go out and find them to dps them for their tokens. Would they actually do it? Who knows

So it's not selfish Guardians trying to get their goodies while preventing the OVs from doing it, it's really just that many players have decided the whole thing is stupid and unfun, especially for the Guardians. So, many OV players, knowing how lame it is for the Guardians, decide to do them a solid and just let them have the dumb tokens.

Of course, if Guardian players are bad-mouthing you and acting like ungrateful spoiled brats then you're under no obligation to give them a damn thing. Just go farm Defenders instead if they're getting mouthy, I do that sometimes.​​

pantagruel01

spinnytop wrote: »

If OVs stopped giving tokens away like this and instead all decided they would just use all their OV time to farm Defenders, then Guardian players would be forced to go out and find them to dps them for their tokens. Would they actually do it? Who knows.​​

That's pretty easy to answer: no, they wouldn't, because it wouldn't actually work. It's not really practical to chase down an OV that doesn't want to be chased down.

nacito

markhawkman wrote: »

Or... kill 3 targets, then come to RenCen to finish collecting VT. Massacring players can rack up the VT quite fast.

this is pretty much how I do, then giving the GTs after I'm done​​

spinnytop

pantagruel01 wrote: »

spinnytop wrote: »

If OVs stopped giving tokens away like this and instead all decided they would just use all their OV time to farm Defenders, then Guardian players would be forced to go out and find them to dps them for their tokens. Would they actually do it? Who knows.

That's pretty easy to answer: no, they wouldn't, because it wouldn't actually work. It's not really practical to chase down an OV that doesn't want to be chased down.

I'm not really sure what's impractical about it. I mean sure, the OV could constantly run around and try to get away from the Guardians, but why would they? They'd be much better off continuing to do their rounds of Defender spots and potentially getting some incidental kills of the Guardians while they do so - after all, it's not as if the Guardians can actually stop the OV from doing their rounds.. The OV would actually be quite foolish to spend their limited time trying to evade the Guardians.

And the question isn't as easy to answer as you claim, because it's clear that people want this stuff, it is some of the objectively most powerful gear in the game after all. Once the rencen source completely dries up it's questionable if people would be okay going without. After all, just as people are talking about making a channel for rencen OV farming, people could just as easily make a channel for hunting them down.

It's unlikely we'll get our answer of course since OV players are unlikely to stop turret diving in rencen. Though it would be interesting if they implemented some system whereby you actually start losing Villain Tokens if you go too long without killing something that gains you some :B​​

jaazaniah1

It's just much easier/less annoying to kill the 3 Until guys, then go to Mercy Hospital respawn point with a friend who lets you kill him/her every time he/she comes off CD. Then return the favor. Can read the news between kills.

rtma

spinnytop wrote: »

Though it would be interesting if they implemented some system whereby you actually start losing Villain Tokens if you go too long without killing something that gains you some :B​​

Even if sarcastic that would encourage preying on the weak more... with players, leading to more selfish behavior.

As for the concerned meme, think of it this way, would you rather give an explanation of a mechanic for others to justify blame for the self absorption and detrimental behavior of others or understand the why behind the what is that it's a human design, a construct, the medium of expression that we come to know as Champions Online, something that the player has a choice to engage with and which case the invariable human interaction can be abused, maybe look upon yourselves as a reason and a cause of the problems interconnected that I've attempted to elaborate with my previous comment, of course that would go against our nature wouldn't it, to realize our involvement and change for the better? and yes I'm referring to humanity in general context as well, Champions Online is just one example, but you wouldn't consider otherwise due to compartmentalizing, this is the CO Forums after all right? nothing else but Champions Online is valid here , despite these variables having further reaching and encompassing complications, yes I am expressing concern, both are valid points, one without the other wouldn't exist otherwise.

Don't know if this will surmount into anything meaningful context to you or anyone else, if no-one is willing to take this into consideration by any extent, if this is going to accomplish anything or just wasted exertions to those who couldn't care less, cyclical perpetuation, but I wanted to tell you how I've contemplated and interpreted, again we all have a choice.

beezeeze

I enjoy shooting at the big monsters that roll into rencenter sometimes and don't mind getting stomped by them once in awhile, but I'm never going to stop trying to bait them into turrets while they are attacking me, if I am lucky enough to get so see my hp vanish in a flash they should also have that opportunity. I've only actually played as the OV a couple of times and it was really boring to me, I like playing as my own characters and I don't care much about the tokens. I participate for the fun of it and part of that fun for me comes from watching an OV throw a rock at me only to see them promptly melted by the turrets.

pantagruel01

spinnytop wrote: »

And the question isn't as easy to answer as you claim, because it's clear that people want this stuff, it is some of the objectively most powerful gear in the game after all.​​

People only farm guardian tokens for the Playing Both Sides mission, as the useful stuff all comes from villain tokens. Playing both sides is a maximum of 25% of your VT gain (500/5 days, whereas a minimal villain daily is 250 for the daily and 50 from kills), so if it's too much of a hassle people just won't do it.

spinnytop

pantagruel01 wrote: »

People only farm guardian tokens for the Playing Both Sides mission, as the useful stuff all comes from villain tokens. Playing both sides is a maximum of 25% of your VT gain (500/5 days, whereas a minimal villain daily is 250 for the daily and 50 from kills), so if it's too much of a hassle people just won't do it.

That's one theory yes. Another is that people have gotten used to the additional influx of VTs and will be more motivated to keep it. We've seen how some people feel entitled to it and they might be upset if the source suddenly dries up. There's also the question of people farming GTs just to unlock an OV villain for farming VTs at all.

Again, it's unlikely we'll ever see which theory is correct.​​

spinnytop

rtma wrote: »

Don't know if this will surmount into anything meaningful context to you or anyone else, if no-one is willing to take this into consideration by any extent, if this is going to accomplish anything or just wasted exertions to those who couldn't care less, cyclical perpetuation, but I wanted to tell you how I've contemplated and interpreted, again we all have a choice.

​​

lezard21

Lol

theravenforce

Rtma, no offense honest, but sometimes on these forums...your comments (like the ones on this thread) make me wonder if you've inhaled a journal article on the the duality of human nature from a Social Constructionist viewpoint!

I love the viewpoint of SC, but...its not something to state randomly on forums for totally unrelated questions or discussions (sure you could argue that if you look at it on a deeper level, there is potential to discuss this here, but damn lol)

warcanch

"Fight me from your horse or on foot, but fight me, ... your avoidance MOCKS me!"​​

spinnytop

I know how we can improve the OV system. Remove it, and add the gear and powers to the recognition vendor o3o​​

markhawkman

spinnytop wrote: »

I know how we can improve the OV system. Remove it, and add the gear and powers to the recognition vendor o3o​​

themightyzenith

'tis a silly system..... bin it.

pantagruel01

spinnytop wrote: »

I know how we can improve the OV system. Remove it, and add the gear and powers to the recognition vendor o3o​​

Nah, add it to the Acclaim store. It's just a specialized PvP mode.

jaazaniah1

Has any piece of content every actually been removed? Just curious.

warcanch

jaazaniah1 wrote: »

Has any piece of content every actually been removed? Just curious.

Rewards? Most definitely.

Crafting was changed to Fusing.

Missions? Some from the Tutorial and a couple from Regular play (I just can't think of those atm).​​

nbkxs

spinnytop wrote: »

I know how we can improve the OV system. Remove it, and add the gear and powers to the recognition vendor o3o​​

I tried to convince to this end; failed horribly. I would give /ANYTHING/ for this. Haha, god OV is such a soul-sucking, spirit-crushing, motivation-destroying experience. And when you need all three bits for a character, you just sort of look at the counter slowly go up every day thinking; JFC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is this NONSENSE over yet?!? Can it please be over?! I need it to be over! But just carry on torturing yourself until you get all of the bits anyway.

Hopefully, one day; in the future, maybe, doubt it, but hopefully.

spinnytop

jaazaniah1 wrote: »

Has any piece of content every actually been removed? Just curious.

That's likely why it won't be removed. Some people worked hard making it and even if the result isn't perfect I doubt anyone on staff feels right either removing it or making it completely irrelevant, so it shall remain a part of the meta o3o/ This generally applies to all content - someone put their hard work into it, so removing it feels kinda crummy.

Also @markhawkman seems to like the OV system and we wouldn't want to take that away from him o3o​​

arliekkos

[img][/img]via Imgflip Meme Generator

spinnytop

​​

khatibr

You're a villain for a few minutes and Villains don't ask for permission. So why ask for permission? I just go around beating on random heroes around rencen to get my points. If they get sadfaced about it, they can....*GASP*.. respawn.

spinnytop

khatibr wrote: »

You're a villain for a few minutes and Villains don't ask for permission. So why ask for permission? I just go around beating on random heroes around rencen to get my points. If they get sadfaced about it, they can....*GASP*.. respawn.

You beat on them if they agree to it you mean o3o you don't have to ask for permission, but they certainly have to consent before you can so much as breath on them. Another reason the villain-side of the system doesn't feel very villainy.​​

magpieuk2014

Lots of people were playing it to begin with, but it became quite clear that the idea had been given insufficient thought and didn't really make anyone happy. But it's there, and no one has to play it if they don't want to

jaazaniah1

If people didn't want the Onslaught secondaries it would be as dead as Sky Command was before it was put into the Ramapge system (not saying SC is all that lively now, but ...).

tilarta

If I wasn't getting annoyed at the selfishness of Guardian players, I might have been inclined to laugh at today's battle.
Yesterday, I had a good run and got 49/50 points.
So I thought, just this one time, I'll stand in RenCen and ask 1 player to volunteer to be defeated with the proviso I would go passive afterwards, just to find out what will happen.
2 Players showed up, one of which was a Regenaration Exploiter (they instantly healed to full each time they were damaged).
When I defeated the other one and stopped fighting, I was immediately surrounded by at least 10 other players and defeated about 1 minute.

So I was thinking, what, where they just offering up that one player as a pawn so they didn't have to be defeated?
Given the speed of their arrival, they literally had to be waiting a short distance away!

So now, my generosity is completely expended, if the players want to get Guardian tokens, they won't be getting them from me.

jaazaniah1 wrote: »

Has any piece of content every actually been removed? Just curious.

Perk Vendor is the one that went out a long time ago.
It used to be that you could trade Perk points for something.
What that was, I do not know, since it was removed before I saw it.

There's also been some legacy equipment I acquired from the previous crafting system, Perk system and a Stronghold mission that aren't in the game anymore as drops:
A level 35 Fighting claws gear item that adds Toxic Damage to fighting claws attacks.
Viper Vibroblaster (tray device).
Stronghold Rucksack (a red backpack that can be slotted in the bag tray).
And some gear item I can't recall that makes a psychic worm (the ones the Elder Worms project) appear at random if specific attacks are used, also from the previous crafting system.

lezard21

Put the character magnifiers in the OV store and BOOOM watch everyone playing OVs​​

markhawkman

Perk vendor was dumb. Also the stuff from the perk store is basically free now.

mithrosnomore

Viper Vibroblaster (tray device).

One of my toons has one of those.

There were a lot of old crafted items that have been removed, and all of those old power replacers no longer drop.

You can argue semantics and say that they are still in the game, but no one is able to get them any more.

=============

As for the OV thing, you could always wait around RenCen yourself and when someone says that they are going to give ut free GTs, then run in and claim your OV transformation, wait for the GT hunters to start attacking the passive villain, and then just ambush them with your non-passive OV.


I think that it is ultimately harmful to the symbiosis that exists, but it is a perfectly legal option.

In the meantime, I will continue to claim all of my points by taking out UNTIL defenders and any random heroes that may decide to attack, and then afterwards I will either grab a few more OV points by hitting some more sites or go to RenCen and give out some free GTs depending upon my mood.

And that's when I do the OV thing at all. It's not something that I feel compelled to do every day.

tilarta

mithrosnomore wrote: »

And that's when I do the OV thing at all. It's not something that I feel compelled to do every day.

Truthfully, the only reason I am attempting a daily completion is the sooner I get my 10k villains tokens, the sooner I can stop playing as OV and find more meaningful uses for my time......

pantagruel01

mithrosnomore wrote: »

I think that it is ultimately harmful to the symbiosis that exists, but it is a perfectly legal option.

Yeah, more people should do that.