Unlock Vibora Bay at level 40 instead of doing the Apocalypse?

wrathsoul1

How come we are forced into doing the VB apocalypse on every character when we can skip the crisis missions for Canada, the Desert, Monster Island and Lemuria?

Can't we have the L40 Vibora Bay unlocked once we reach the level cap, instead? With the Apocalypse as an optional questline?

spinnytop

I think they should reinstate the other Crisis as requirements to enter those zones.​​

jonesing4

spinnytop wrote: »

I think they should reinstate the other Crisis as requirements to enter those zones.​​

I think that might be the worst idea you've ever had.

spinnytop

jonesing4 wrote: »

spinnytop wrote: »

I think they should reinstate the other Crisis as requirements to enter those zones.

I think that might be the worst idea you've ever had.

Good. Ideas that you think are bad and I think are good are usually the ones that get implemented o3o​​

warcanch

Some of the reasons the MI and Lemurian crises were removed as "requirements" were that they each had some debilitating bug(s) that potentially kept you from completing them. Some attempts had been made to correct them, but every so often, especially when new, other code was added to the game, they would become unfinishable again.

Making them optional means the Devs don't have to revisit to repair broken aspects.

In general, I like the content, but I can see why one would want to bypass it. It's been years since I've done either MI or Lemurian crises. But I've done the VBA for all recent characters that I brought to lvl 40 (created 2 years or less ago).​​

markhawkman

If you know exactly what to do, Lemuria is pretty fast.

jonesing4

spinnytop wrote: »

Good. Ideas that you think are bad and I think are good are usually the ones that get implemented o3o​​

While that sounds like it's probably right, I can't really think of many examples offhand. In fact, you have really good ideas sometimes that aren't implemented. The main disagreement we've had lately is that time when I thought they should continue giving LTS members what we paid for, and you thought they should flip us the bird for minimal resource savings.

On topic, though, I don't see any conceivable benefit to locking a zone beyond a pretty tedious mission chain for every single character. Why would that actually be desirable, as a player?

pjz99

If any real effort ever gets put into Vibora, I hope they just make the content skill leveled instead of capping at level 39. The big reason no one touches VB isn't so much that the unlock takes a lot of time, it's because by the time you've unlocked it you're probably level 40 already and everything is below you.

spinnytop

jonesing4 wrote: »

On topic, though, I don't see any conceivable benefit to locking a zone beyond a pretty tedious mission chain for every single character. Why would that actually be desirable, as a player?

Because people are always clamoring for more content while skipping the content we have. I mean hey, if that mission chain is tedious to you, then all mission chains should be tedious to you, so you should be leveling through Grabs anyways.​​

magpieuk2014

This one again?

I've always thought that if you hit 40 and haven't done the VB apocalypse you should get an enigmatic invite to VB... from yourself. Turns out that Juryrig's machine didn't work properly and that past you is going to have save the world instead. Open the zone, save the world. VB is still worth playing for a new 40, as well as being a good source of gear, mods and costumes.

jaazaniah1

You have to do VBA so you know what Therakiel's Temple is all about. Oh, right, almost no one does the real, final climax to VBA anymore. Really, TT could be made more attractive to players by just updating the loot tables.

jonesing4

spinnytop wrote: »

Because people are always clamoring for more content while skipping the content we have.

I'm not skipping it, I've played it at least a dozen times. I don't know what "people" do, but I would like 'more' content that is 'different' content. Save the Earth is a good example. I like StE, and it's different from a Vibora mission chain. Being forced to play Vibora apocalypse has nothing to do with enjoying new, different content.

I mean hey, if that mission chain is tedious to you, then all mission chains should be tedious to you

Why? They aren't all the same.

so you should be leveling through Grabs anyways.​​

Hah, the most tedious option possible.

spinnytop

jonesing4 wrote: »

I'm not skipping it, I've played it at least a dozen times.

Yeah, you've also played a butt ton of other content that is basically just like it, probably several times over. I mean shoot, if you think level up content, be it missions or grabs, is tedious then I'm not sure how you ever managed to level up more than one toon.​​

markhawkman

jaazaniah1 wrote: »

You have to do VBA so you know what Therakiel's Temple is all about. Oh, right, almost no one does the real, final climax to VBA anymore. Really, TT could be made more attractive to players by just updating the loot tables.

The loot table already includes one of the most expensive and highly prized items in the game... which yeah, it'd be a lot less rare if more people played TT.

jaazaniah1

But it's a god-awful looking thing. I'd probably sell it first chance, rather than unlock it.

markhawkman

well, apparently there are some who want it.

retehi

Complete the quest chain once to make VB access account wide.

jaazaniah1

Just saying that the sword unlock alone doesn't motivate me now to run TT, nor would it in the future. It takes much longer than a Qzone run so should at least give some amount of scr, if not some nominal gcr.

flyingfinn

I just sneak in VB thru the Alert....

darqaura2

Agreed. Unlock the zone at 40.

shredmonkey

It they took all VB missions (including VBA) and cut the objectives' quantities in half, thid wouldn't be a big deal. As it stands VB isngood content ruined by silly mission objective quantities.

revanantmorituri

I do wish there were alternatives. Thematically, some characters (my namesake Avatar of the Goddess of Libraries) feel obligated to seek out and oppose Therakiel, while others, like Curvaceous, my super-strong knife-wielding street vigilante, wonder what the BLEEP all this apocalypse stuff is doing in her comic book. Doesn't help that once the Apocalypse is over, VB is back to being a crime-ridden town, just with a heavier supernatural element than when you were there at level 20.

markhawkman

shredmonkey#6879 wrote: »

It they took all VB missions (including VBA) and cut the objectives' quantities in half, thid wouldn't be a big deal. As it stands VB isngood content ruined by silly mission objective quantities.

Honestly, the Taffy mission where you kill 100 vampires isn't very long. that catacomb has a bunch of groups of 4 weak minions.

spinnytop

wait... why unlock it at 40? Vibora is a leveling zone, it should be unlocked way earlier than that.​​

pjz99

Exactly, and while you're at it, make it level agnostic rather than tying the content to a strict level.

markhawkman

pjz99 wrote: »

Exactly, and while you're at it, make it level agnostic rather than tying the content to a strict level.

Sure... let's let level 15 characters play with level 40 vampires.

roughbearmattach

I think it should be unlocked at something like level 32 or 33, so it can be used for leveling more easily.

spinnytop

markhawkman wrote: »

pjz99 wrote: »

Exactly, and while you're at it, make it level agnostic rather than tying the content to a strict level.

Sure... let's let level 15 characters play with level 40 vampires.

I mean.... I'd be fine with that ​​

pjz99

markhawkman wrote: »

pjz99 wrote: »

Exactly, and while you're at it, make it level agnostic rather than tying the content to a strict level.

Sure... let's let level 15 characters play with level 40 vampires.

Yes, sure, why not? Seriously, why not?

flyingfinn

The Apocalypse opens at 34? Missions are lvl 37?
Been awhile since i did it.

pjz99

Yes, you can start it at level 34, everything in the open map zone is maximum of 39.

markhawkman

pjz99 wrote: »

markhawkman wrote: »

pjz99 wrote: »

Exactly, and while you're at it, make it level agnostic rather than tying the content to a strict level.

Sure... let's let level 15 characters play with level 40 vampires.

Yes, sure, why not? Seriously, why not?

Well, if you LIKE getting curbstomped...

pjz99

Maybe I do? Why not? Players can figure that out for themselves "I can/can't do this content".

spinnytop

pjz99 wrote: »

Maybe I do? Why not? Players can figure that out for themselves "I can/can't do this content".

"players can figure that out for themselves" is generally a bad design philosophy.​​

pjz99

"If I go here I die" vs. "If I go here I win" is maybe, possibly, just perhaps, simple enough for players to figure out for themselves, but I maybe that's expecting too much \o/

xcelsior41

pjz99 wrote: »

"If I go here I die" vs. "If I go here I win" is maybe, possibly, just perhaps, simple enough for players to figure out for themselves, but I maybe that's expecting too much \o/

Spoiler alert: You don't win against a single level 40 minion as a level 15. Otherwise you'd see people doing cosmics at level 15. Hell there wouldn't even be a level 15 because at that point levels don't matter I get you want all zones open at all levels. The issue is though that it would basically end up as it is now. I mean, you go there and you die then you don't go again because of what I said earlier, until you're level 35+. The only reason to go is because of RP places I guess?

pantagruel01

Since missions are only available 3 levels before their listed level, reaching VB much before level 34 is pointless.

The VB apocalypse is a gorgeous zone, I'd sort of like it to be accessible after you leave, but it's problematic for an unlock because it has all these filler missions. A trimmed down VB arc would be something like:

1. Allow skipping helping Valerian Scarlet -- say, after talking to her you can be suspicious, go talk to Juryrig again, be redirected to talk to Caliburn, and proceed immediately to confronting her.
2. Allow skipping Enemies Amok (no need to remove it, just make it not required)
3. Trim the number of invisible spirits required in the Banish Imposition.
4. Eliminate Down the Drain, we can proceed directly to Juryrig's Garage and defending the time machine.
5. Eliminate Fishing for Components.

That trims 16 missions down to 10; the only important plot elements it leaves out are the PC carrying the idiot ball (fine to skip that one) and Amphibian being corrupted.

pjz99

xcelsior41 wrote: »

Spoiler alert: You don't win against a single level 40 minion as a level 15. Otherwise you'd see people doing cosmics at level 15.

Yes, that's why I'm suggesting make all the content skull leveled/player level agnostic. I guess you missed that part ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

pjz99

pantagruel01 wrote: »

That trims 16 missions down to 10; the only important plot elements it leaves out are the PC carrying the idiot ball (fine to skip that one) and Amphibian being corrupted.

I agree with this, a lot of the VB unlock feels like padding (particularly having the How ARGENT Gets Ahead/DEMON in the Details missions being on extreme opposite sides of MC).

xcelsior41

pjz99 wrote: »

xcelsior41 wrote: »

Spoiler alert: You don't win against a single level 40 minion as a level 15. Otherwise you'd see people doing cosmics at level 15.

Yes, that's why I'm suggesting make all the content skull leveled/player level agnostic. I guess you missed that part ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I think you missed this part:

xcelsior41 wrote: »

pjz99 wrote: »

"If I go here I die" vs. "If I go here I win" is maybe, possibly, just perhaps, simple enough for players to figure out for themselves, but I maybe that's expecting too much \o/

Hell there wouldn't even be a level 15 because at that point levels don't matter [/b][/i] I get you want all zones open at all levels. The issue is though that it would basically end up as it is now. I mean, you go there and you die then you don't go again because of what I said earlier, until you're level 35+. The only reason to go is because of RP places I guess?

I couldn't find a way to make the font bigger for you. I hope you can see it

Agnostic levels would mean agnostic difficulty/no real point overall. The point of an MMO, as crazy as it seems, is to level up/have level appropriate content. I get that CO enemies could use an AI boost/challenge boost, but outside of that I think they do that pretty well.

xcelsior41

pantagruel01 wrote: »

Since missions are only available 3 levels before their listed level, reaching VB much before level 34 is pointless.

The VB apocalypse is a gorgeous zone, I'd sort of like it to be accessible after you leave, but it's problematic for an unlock because it has all these filler missions. A trimmed down VB arc would be something like:

1. Allow skipping helping Valerian Scarlet -- say, after talking to her you can be suspicious, go talk to Juryrig again, be redirected to talk to Caliburn, and proceed immediately to confronting her.
2. Allow skipping Enemies Amok (no need to remove it, just make it not required)
3. Trim the number of invisible spirits required in the Banish Imposition.
4. Eliminate Down the Drain, we can proceed directly to Juryrig's Garage and defending the time machine.
5. Eliminate Fishing for Components.

That trims 16 missions down to 10; the only important plot elements it leaves out are the PC carrying the idiot ball (fine to skip that one) and Amphibian being corrupted.

I like that overall greatly above level 15 getting stomped because level 15 in 40 zone . Or agnostic difficulty because obvious reasons.

pjz99

xcelsior41 wrote: »

Agnostic levels would mean agnostic difficulty/no real point overall.

No, if you've played any of the APs you'd notice that enemies vary greatly in difficulty even though they're scaled to your level. There's also difficulty modifiers that have nothing to do with level (Elite difficulty effect e.g.)

The point of an MMO, as crazy as it seems, is to level up/have level appropriate content. I get that CO enemies could use an AI boost/challenge boost, but outside of that I think they do that pretty well.

The point of games is for them to be fun and entertaining, and ~leveling up~ (while certainly an element) is not at all the entirety of the experience.

xcelsior41

pjz99 wrote: »

xcelsior41 wrote: »

Agnostic levels would mean agnostic difficulty/no real point overall.

No, if you've played any of the APs you'd notice that enemies vary greatly in difficulty even though they're scaled to your level. There's also difficulty modifiers that have nothing to do with level (Elite difficulty effect e.g.)

The point of an MMO, as crazy as it seems, is to level up/have level appropriate content. I get that CO enemies could use an AI boost/challenge boost, but outside of that I think they do that pretty well.

The point of games is for them to be fun and entertaining, and ~leveling up~ (while certainly an element) is not at all the entirety of the experience.

No but that's what an MMO is. And what am I talking about? We already HAVE agnostic difficulty even with the "difficulty" sliders everything is pretty much uniform except what? the enemies get a slight dodge buff? That's not very difficult at all and hugely negligible. What'd be great is variety in enemies. I agree MMOs should be fun whole-heartily, and I think enemy tactical and power variety(as well as player power variety) would be great opposed to just uniform agnostic difficulty.
I've solo'd the AP on elite many years ago, and recently did so on a build to test endgame gear. It's not that difficult at all

With agnostic difficulty it becomes even moreso a question of why leave MC? The purple gang goons are the same difficulty/level as the vampire and werewolves in VB? Logically doens't make sense, and would probably serve to hurt moving people out of MC overall.

spinnytop

pjz99 wrote: »

The point of games is for them to be fun and entertaining

Ja don't say?

xcelsior41 wrote: »

With agnostic difficulty it becomes even moreso a question of why leave MC? The purple gang goons are the same difficulty/level as the vampire and werewolves in VB? Logically doens't make sense, and would probably serve to hurt moving people out of MC overall.

Kind of a good point. While skull tech mobs in all zones would give us the option to go to whatever zone whenever we feel like, it could also motivate people to just stay in M-City full time.

Also quests are level based, and I'm not sure they can even be made to level with the player, and if they did then doing the "npc runs up to you and gives you a quest" quests would help to motivate people to stay in M-City and just level there cause the quests come to you!​​

kamokami

pantagruel01 wrote: »

Since missions are only available 3 levels before their listed level, reaching VB much before level 34 is pointless.

The VB apocalypse is a gorgeous zone, I'd sort of like it to be accessible after you leave, but it's problematic for an unlock because it has all these filler missions. A trimmed down VB arc would be something like:

1. Allow skipping helping Valerian Scarlet -- say, after talking to her you can be suspicious, go talk to Juryrig again, be redirected to talk to Caliburn, and proceed immediately to confronting her.
2. Allow skipping Enemies Amok (no need to remove it, just make it not required)
3. Trim the number of invisible spirits required in the Banish Imposition.
4. Eliminate Down the Drain, we can proceed directly to Juryrig's Garage and defending the time machine.
5. Eliminate Fishing for Components.

That trims 16 missions down to 10; the only important plot elements it leaves out are the PC carrying the idiot ball (fine to skip that one) and Amphibian being corrupted.

This sounds good