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Defiance and other quirky things that don't quite make sense

deadman20deadman20 Posts: 1,529 Arc User
I'll be honest, this one might be a bit more ranty than other suggestions.

I hate Defiance, it acts more like a Toggled Form than a passive. Sure, it's effective, but with the way power sets are being fleshed out it seems silly that something like this acts the way it does. My suggestion here would simply be make it act LESS like a Toggled Form, because it's a slotted passive.

The idea I have is to cut up half of its stackable Defense and just move it to being static. Also, instead of gaining Energy when Defiance stacks, have Defiance provide the user with a small shielding effect like the Defender Gloves, based on the user's Superstats.

Let's say right now Defiance works like this:
-Start with no defense, gain it via stacks when struck.
-Each stack is hypothetically 12% Resistance to the user for a total of 72% Resistance when at the max of 6 stacks.
-When gaining the stack, the user also gains 30 Energy.

What I propose would go more like this:
-Start with a hypothetical 36% Resistance, gain more via stacks when struck.
-Each stack is still the hypothetical 12% Resistance but stacks up to 3 times instead of 6, still adding up to the total of 72% Resistance when added to the proposed "base".
-Instead of gaining Energy, the user gains a small protective shield. We say the hypothetical sum of their Superstats is about 800, so the user gets an 800 point shield whenever fulfilling the condition to gain a stack.

This way Defiance has an easier time starting and doesn't seem like it's just a really strong Defense Toggled Form in the wrong place.

NOW THEN! Another odd thing that I really hate is IDF. Once upon a time, Mental Discipline was in the same boat, but no longer thanks to the TK Revamp. This form acts like a Mini-passive, being rather static throughout combat. I actually already suggested a change for it to act like a form in my previous suggestion thread; The Toggled Form Revamp. Still, I'm going to get into detail with it.

So, right now let's say IDF provides a hypothetical 150 Damage Absorption, meaning that that amount of damage is just taken away before resistances and all that fun stuff. Pretty much the same thing as what Unstoppable and Invulnerable do but team-wide and scales with all Superstats.

I like me a good Support Form, but this is just too passive to be a Toggled Form. So, I want to take the Absorption part away and replace it with Bonus Shielding per stack, with a minor bonus to all damage as well. Now, to fit it into form status, the stacks will also scale with a more dedicated superstat; Endurance. Oh, and the form will also gain Energy on stack. Simple enough.

Also, Aspect of the Machine should normalize into the more standard form format; 8-stacks max and user gains energy. It can keep its unique even split between Ranged and Melee damage. This one I just moved and called it Instinctual Frenzy in the Form Revamp thread.

Speaking on Forms and Passives, I'd love if more of them got Advantages. Perhaps this is a way to make them more unique AND provide cross-framework synergies? Not sure what I would make them do, but options are nice especially if there's an alternate and strong playstyle available when selecting an Advantage over Rank 3. Though, Seraphim's Balance and Defiance's weird Knock Resist on lower health could be more effective. Travel powers could get a similar treatment really, particularly Flight. Flight-based TPs could get an In-combat Speed Advantage or something.

Anyway, that's all... for now. You folks have fun while I'm moving!
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Comments

  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    While I like the idea of having Defiance be less tarded initially, I don't think giving it an absorb on top of that is very good for balance, since it effectively takes the "best" endgame tanking passive and makes it even better--all without costing the 4 extra advantage points every other passive practically demands. That said, I also agree that the bonus energy kickback should probably go, as should the bonus energy from unstoppable and really any other slot-based passive. Leave energy generation to EUs, forms, and misc powers like circle of whatever.

    As for IDF, it should probably get redesigned into something similar to compassion--a support-based form that boosts healing/shielding (and damage to a lesser degree). To preserve the "forcefield" flavor, they could add an advantage similar to endorphin rush, except instead of healing the player each time it stacks, it shields them. Of course, chances are it'd end up getting tied to some awful stat, like endurance, so it'd spend most of its time hanging out on the bench with Smoldering.

    Finally, extra advantages don't work well on passives since most of them demand a full 4 point investment. Forms, however, should probably just lose rank 2 and 3 completely (nobody in their right mind takes these I suspect) and just stick with useful, but not mandatory bonus effects, such as endorphin rush.​​
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  • shadowolf505shadowolf505 Posts: 697 Arc User
    Nah, let Defiance and Unstoppable stay the way they are. They're good as is. Way of the Warrior as well, since it gives energy when the opponent dodges. I find these 3 passives perfectly well built for Tank/Melee DPS and they don't really need any changes. IDF will be changed with Force Revamp, so we can wait on that. (:p) Aspect of the Machine is tricky, but making it go up to 8 stacks instead of 5 won't mean that people will use it more. Forms and passives should be able to Rank 3 with an effective advantage at least, like how Enrage has Endorphin Rush. Just give Passives a good advantage for effectiveness and same with the forms. :)
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  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    I'd be kinda miffed if Unstoppable stopped giving me energy my build needs. It's actually useful unlike many of those other dps passives that give energy on damage because taking damage is totally what you want to be doing as a dps toon. Or taking a very specific type of damage which still makes the energy component mostly useless.

    Maybe if Accelerated Metabolism wasn't garbage... Basically, I like having energy options for my builds.​​
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    Considering Defiance has already relegated all other defensive passives other than LR to "off tank status", and LR is seen as a gimmicky and restrictive contender at best, I don't see why Defiance needs any help whatsoever.
  • deadman20deadman20 Posts: 1,529 Arc User
    Think less on the numbers and more on the function. The idea isn't to make Defiance more powerful but instead make act more like a passive. With the idea I had in mind Defiance can be given a base defense that can be made stronger with ranks. This taking place over ranks giving extra starting stacks like a form.

    The shield thing is more of an afterthought, but I would have been more like it would only apply when GAINING a stack rather than applying any time the trigger condition was met.

    Also, Defiance doesn't really have an internal cooldown like forms do. This part I can take or leave.

    Less like a form, more like a passive is the idea.
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  • shadowolf505shadowolf505 Posts: 697 Arc User
    Defiance can die down, like a form.
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  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    sterga wrote: »
    I'd be kinda miffed if Unstoppable stopped giving me energy my build needs. It's actually useful unlike many of those other dps passives that give energy on damage because taking damage is totally what you want to be doing as a dps toon. Or taking a very specific type of damage which still makes the energy component mostly useless.
    From a player's perspective, I can see why people want to keep energy returns on defiant/unstoppable/way of the warrior since it's almost like having a second energy unlock. Doesn't it seem a bit unbalanced, though? I mean, unstoppable and way of the warrior are both pretty solid melee passives even without the energy return thanks to their other benefits. As for defiance, it'd still be the best endgame tanking passive of the lot even if it didn't vomit energy all over the player each time they got hit.
    sterga wrote: »
    Maybe if Accelerated Metabolism wasn't garbage...
    Yeah, for something on nearly every power, I really wish it was a lot better than it is currently. Maybe it should be a meaningful energy discount on the selected powered rather than god-awful RNG on an internal cooldown.
    sterga wrote: »
    Basically, I like having energy options for my builds.
    Same, especially since I detest energy management and want to force it as far into the background as possible. I just don't think having some (but not all) passives filling this role is very good for the game's overall balance. Something like this really should be all or nothing.​​
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  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    Might would need its own EU if Defiance lost its energy gain function.

    If we're not talking about buffing or nerfing it and it's just about changing the way it works so that it has some resist at the start...you can already do that by ranking it up. You rank up every other defensive passive, no reason why you should not have to do it with Defiance to get a similar feel.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    spinnytop said:

    Considering Defiance has already relegated all other defensive passives other than LR to "off tank status", and LR is seen as a gimmicky and restrictive contender at best, I don't see why Defiance needs any help whatsoever.

    A lot of that is healing being overpowered, so nothing but spike resistance is particularly valued; in non-boss fights Defiance is worse than Invulnerability and usually also worse than Regeneration.
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    "Doesn't it seem a bit unbalanced, though?"

    No. Energy management is the most boring part of the game and I just can't be bothered to care about it. I don't want to go back to doing stupid BS to run my build like I did before Laser Sword was removed from the game. Energy management is never going to be an interesting / meaningful choice to make.

    And maybe you haven't noticed, but CO doesn't really have much balance.​​
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  • shadowolf505shadowolf505 Posts: 697 Arc User
    sterga said:

    "Doesn't it seem a bit unbalanced, though?"



    No. Energy management is the most boring part of the game and I just can't be bothered to care about it. I don't want to go back to doing stupid BS to run my build like I did before Laser Sword was removed from the game. Energy management is never going to be an interesting / meaningful choice to make.



    And maybe you haven't noticed, but CO doesn't really have much balance.​​

    Laser Sword isn't removed, lol. It's still there. You just need to manage your energy.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User

    spinnytop said:

    Considering Defiance has already relegated all other defensive passives other than LR to "off tank status", and LR is seen as a gimmicky and restrictive contender at best, I don't see why Defiance needs any help whatsoever.

    A lot of that is healing being overpowered, so nothing but spike resistance is particularly valued; in non-boss fights Defiance is worse than Invulnerability and usually also worse than Regeneration.
    I have 4 characters, one that I've used a lot in Cosmics is a regen tank(Tanya Wilson). Yesterday I was BT. Needed a lot of healing, but I got it done. In LI I can tank the Bleak Harbinger without healing practically indefinitely.
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  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    Laser Sword isn't removed, lol. It's still there. You just need to manage your energy.

    I used to run a build around a power called Laser Sword, that was a T1 combo with high damage and high cost. Just because I could do so successfully, doesn't mean I actually want to deal with energy management. This power no longer exists in the game.

    "Laser Sword:
    [...]
    Renamed to Lightspeed Strike."


    Patch Notes.​​
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    Oh that. Instead of a single power it's no a power set.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User

    >I have 4 characters, one that I've used a lot in Cosmics is a regen tank(Tanya Wilson). Yesterday I was BT. Needed a lot of healing, but I got it done.

    I've seen the baby tanked w/o heals by a regen tank, which nothing else can do (I think there may have been something else involved like an AoRP, normally regen isn't quite enough).
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    sterga wrote: »
    "Doesn't it seem a bit unbalanced, though?"

    No. Energy management is the most boring part of the game and I just can't be bothered to care about it. I don't want to go back to doing stupid BS to run my build like I did before Laser Sword was removed from the game. Energy management is never going to be an interesting / meaningful choice to make.
    Oh I completely agree. Energy management in this game is absolute garbage and actually, I'd like to see every offensive passive have proper energy gains comparable to Unstoppable/Way of the Warrior, and every defensive passive have gains similar to Defiance. Having good energy returns on just a few is no good, though.

    Or better yet, just delete Recovery, Endurance, and crush the energy bar into dust. Nothing of value would be lost.
    sterga wrote: »
    And maybe you haven't noticed, but CO doesn't really have much balance.
    Right, but lack of balance doesn't justify leaving unbalanced things as they are.
    renaming something doesn't make it 'no longer exist'
    Technically it still exists, but mechanically, it's gone. The "high cost, high damage combo called laser sword" no longer exists, because all that remains of it is a "lower cost, low damage combo called lightspeed strike."​​
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  • deadman20deadman20 Posts: 1,529 Arc User
    kamokami wrote: »
    If we're not talking about buffing or nerfing it and it's just about changing the way it works so that it has some resist at the start...you can already do that by ranking it up. You rank up every other defensive passive, no reason why you should not have to do it with Defiance to get a similar feel.

    Ranking up Defiance only affects the Minimum potential it has, not the Maximum. You will still only ever reach a peak of 6 stacks regardless of whatever Ranks you invest in. Once again, the goal is to make Defiance feel less like a form, because that's basically how it functions. That's what I hate about Defiance; It's a Form that is classified as a Passive, and that's what I want changed.​​
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    The easy way to fix it so ranking matters would be to reduce max stacks to 5, remove the bonus stacks based on rank, and give it 0/20/40% base damage resistance based on rank. That makes it a bit worse at rank 1, a bit better at rank 3, about the same as now at rank 2.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User

    A lot of that is healing being overpowered, so nothing but spike resistance is particularly valued; in non-boss fights Defiance is worse than Invulnerability and usually also worse than Regeneration.

    Yeah, and in non boss-content I can tank on a dps u3u
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    I kind of like the idea of keeping Defiant as a power that doesn't need ranks since the only place it's really needed is at Cosmics. That way, someone could take a second passive for the entire rest of the game where Defiant is either not necessary or sucks. It's basically a QoL feature for Defiant.​​
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  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    deadman20 said:

    Ranking up Defiance only affects the Minimum potential it has, not the Maximum. You will still only ever reach a peak of 6 stacks regardless of whatever Ranks you invest in.

    I thought the idea was to change it without buffing it? Not sure how you'd improve its maximum potential without buffing Defiance and I don't think it needs a buff.
  • rtmartma Posts: 1,198 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    aesica said:

    Or better yet, just delete Recovery, Endurance, and crush the energy bar into dust. Nothing of value would be lost.

    This right here would devolve the game into, Hit your most powerful attack button til you win, do you really want that?

    I suppose you'll imply that it already is but you do have to manage your options and can cycle through debuffs etc, little more depth then just mash your power move to win. xP

    Post edited by rtma on
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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    rtma said:

    This right here would devolve the game into, Hit your most powerful attack button til you win, do you really want that?

    I suppose you'll imply that it already is but you do have to manage your options and can cycle through debuffs etc, little more depth then just mash your power move to win. xP

    The recent reviews have added some more synergies to sets, but most of those would work just as well without energy.
  • deadman20deadman20 Posts: 1,529 Arc User
    kamokami wrote: »
    I thought the idea was to change it without buffing it? Not sure how you'd improve its maximum potential without buffing Defiance and I don't think it needs a buff.

    It doesn't have to gain power to be changed so that ranking would affect its higher potential. It would entirely be possible for that to happen, but the idea to cut the amount of stacks and move some of the resistance to base instead gives ranks the capability to add potential. At first, Defiance would look like it got nerfed because it loses three stacks and the initial resistance the passive gives won't add up to it's current max. Then you begin ranking it up, increasing the amount of resistance Defiance provides naturally until it matches what it was before, give or take depending on balance.

    Essentially, if you want the power Defiance has, you would invest Advantage Points into it like any other Passive. This replacing just always having max potential without investment and ranking adjusting the starting place like a form does. Which would be pointless given that Defiance doesn't seem to have an internal cooldown on stacking anyway.

    Don't get me wrong here, I love Defiance as a concept and want to maintain that. I just don't want to have a Form for a Passive.​​
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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    Nm
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User

    >I have 4 characters, one that I've used a lot in Cosmics is a regen tank(Tanya Wilson). Yesterday I was BT. Needed a lot of healing, but I got it done.

    I've seen the baby tanked w/o heals by a regen tank, which nothing else can do (I think there may have been something else involved like an AoRP, normally regen isn't quite enough).
    Regen is one of those things where if you out regen the incoming DPS you're basically immortal. Bleak Harbinger is just one example. If I'm blocking, it can't DPS me fast enough. Not sure how to make myself tough enough to do that to Baby. 400 Con maybe? not sure.
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  • shadowolf505shadowolf505 Posts: 697 Arc User

    >I have 4 characters, one that I've used a lot in Cosmics is a regen tank(Tanya Wilson). Yesterday I was BT. Needed a lot of healing, but I got it done.

    I've seen the baby tanked w/o heals by a regen tank, which nothing else can do (I think there may have been something else involved like an AoRP, normally regen isn't quite enough).
    Regen is one of those things where if you out regen the incoming DPS you're basically immortal. Bleak Harbinger is just one example. If I'm blocking, it can't DPS me fast enough. Not sure how to make myself tough enough to do that to Baby. 400 Con maybe? not sure.
    Maybe. You kinda want at least 200 of Str/Dex/Ego, depending on what type of Regen Tank you are. Since said stats are for your form. :)
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    My best guess is Juggernaut-Wardicator with high 600s Con, circle of primal dominion, and some r3 block (unsure which is best, I'd want to compare Antagonize, Ebon Void, and TK shield). Elder worm dome, spark shield. Ideally you could just do this afk, so we'll pass on Moonstruck and Resurgence for now.

    I'm not sure that quite keeps up with incoming dps, but it's very close.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    rtma wrote: »
    This right here would devolve the game into, Hit your most powerful attack button til you win, do you really want that?

    I suppose you'll imply that it already is but you do have to manage your options and can cycle through debuffs etc, little more depth then just mash your power move to win. xP
    Not really. You'd still want to lower your target's resistance vs your chosen damage type, you'd still want to stack or maintain [random debuff] in between spamming your heavy-hitting T3 power. It's worth noting that most of the T3 powers are empowered by various other effects, such as how Soul Beam gains extra damage if you're affected by an enchantment and your target is affected by a curse. So even if you could spam it infinitely, you'd be doing less damage than somebody who was properly using buffs/debuffs from "weaker" powers.

    It'd be a lot like it is now, actually. The only differences would be you wouldn't feel obligated to take a lame energy stat, you wouldn't run the risk of "choking" when dealing with short-lived mobs that die before your energy unlock effect can be triggered, you'd have an extra power slot (bye EU), and you wouldn't have a mostly-useless blue bar going up and down that you probably weren't paying attention to anyway--because you didn't need to.​​
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User

    >I have 4 characters, one that I've used a lot in Cosmics is a regen tank(Tanya Wilson). Yesterday I was BT. Needed a lot of healing, but I got it done.

    I've seen the baby tanked w/o heals by a regen tank, which nothing else can do (I think there may have been something else involved like an AoRP, normally regen isn't quite enough).
    Regen is one of those things where if you out regen the incoming DPS you're basically immortal. Bleak Harbinger is just one example. If I'm blocking, it can't DPS me fast enough. Not sure how to make myself tough enough to do that to Baby. 400 Con maybe? not sure.
    Maybe. You kinda want at least 200 of Str/Dex/Ego, depending on what type of Regen Tank you are. Since said stats are for your form. :)

    My best guess is Juggernaut-Wardicator with high 600s Con, circle of primal dominion, and some r3 block (unsure which is best, I'd want to compare Antagonize, Ebon Void, and TK shield). Elder worm dome, spark shield. Ideally you could just do this afk, so we'll pass on Moonstruck and Resurgence for now.

    I'm not sure that quite keeps up with incoming dps, but it's very close.

    Well, I have Strength(with Juggernaut)+Wardicator

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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User

    Well, I have Strength(with Juggernaut)+Wardicator

    I was addressing what's needed for unaided baby tanking, not what's useful for any normal purposes. That setup looks adequate for BTing with help, and probably either MT or OT for TA.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    Oh yeah, I forgot to ask earlier, but does bonus healing(like on my gloves) actually boost Regen?
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  • avianosavianos Posts: 6,021 Arc User
    Oh yeah, I forgot to ask earlier, but does bonus healing(like on my gloves) actually boost Regen?
    No, The Regeneration passive is not affected by Presence and Bonus Healing​​
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  • catstarstocatstarsto Posts: 1,129 Arc User
    I think that type of healing means, bonus to healing others. Correct me if Im wrong...

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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    that's what I thought.
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  • deadman20deadman20 Posts: 1,529 Arc User
    If I remember right, Regen scales on total superstars with no regard to bonus healing such as with presence and compassion.
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  • saxophone55#9225 saxophone55 Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    I would appreciate it if they could bring back the effect where every two stacks of defiance grants one stack of enrage.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User

    I would appreciate it if they could bring back the effect where every two stacks of defiance grants one stack of enrage.

    Original was every stack of defiance consumed granted a stack of enrage.
  • > @pantagruel01 said:
    > I would appreciate it if they could bring back the effect where every two stacks of defiance grants one stack of enrage.
    >
    > Original was every stack of defiance consumed granted a stack of enrage.

    I read about that. I really hope that they do something similar for the behemoth class so that it is possible to passively have the max 8 stacks of enrage. It can be a pain to use certain attacks just to gain two additional stacks for maximum effect.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User

    > @pantagruel01 said:

    > I would appreciate it if they could bring back the effect where every two stacks of defiance grants one stack of enrage.

    >

    > Original was every stack of defiance consumed granted a stack of enrage.



    I read about that. I really hope that they do something similar for the behemoth class so that it is possible to passively have the max 8 stacks of enrage. It can be a pain to use certain attacks just to gain two additional stacks for maximum effect.

    You grossly misunderstand what original enrage did. The way it works now is far less hassle.
  • rtmartma Posts: 1,198 Arc User
    I assume how Defiant/Enrage used to interact (I wasn't around that far back) is look at some Super Villains using Might/Defiant like White Wolf in Red Winter alert and see how it transfers Defiant stacks to enrage when their HP gets lower, every tic of damage re-stacks Defiant then this internal 3 or 4 seconds per stack players have now.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    rtma said:

    I assume how Defiant/Enrage used to interact (I wasn't around that far back) is look at some Super Villains using Might/Defiant like White Wolf in Red Winter alert and see how it transfers Defiant stacks to enrage when their HP gets lower, every tic of damage re-stacks Defiant then this internal 3 or 4 seconds per stack players have now.

    Player defiance has always had an internal cooldown on stacking -- the npc version is different. Other than that, yes, the way npc enrage works is the way player enrage used to work.
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