We need Ingame Community Moderators

lezard21

As a lot of you probably know, for the last couple of weeks the activity of 2 Cosmic trolls (or the same troll with alt account) has increased drastically to the point where it's become frequent that Kiga (the easiest Cosmic to troll) went from taking 10-20 mins to taking up to 3 hours in a good day.

The increased activity of these trolls has been encouraged by the fact that despite multiple reports both ingame and via ticket with videoproof (one such video is even posted here in the forums) by multiple players, the trolls remain unbanned. This also brings bad PR as a consequence to the game, discouraging people from running endgame (further reinforced by the currently bugged Eido, but that's something for another topic).

This is why, since hiring more GMs is probably out of the question, I suggest the implementation of an Ingame Community Moderator system.

The system would work pretty much like the forums Moderator system, that is, exemplary players like @biffsmackwell, @carrionbaggage or @bluhman, are given the role of Ingame Moderator and gain the power to mute/ban a player for 1 hour (enough for Cosmics to be completed). The moderator will then have to file a ticket to their higher ups with evidence to justify the mute/ban (to avoid potential abuse) at which point the moderation can approve the ban/mute, extend it, or sanction the Moderator if the action is deemed as an abuse of power.

Like with other games that use such a system, the payment of the Ingame Moderators will come in the form of virtual currency (in the case of CO, a modest amount of Zen) and glory unending for being a good guy that keeps the streets safe from trolls \o/

What are the thoughts of the community/devs on this?
and before anyone says it, no, I did not suffer head trauma and am pushing this idea because I consider myself fit to fill this position

jasric

Sounds like an interesting idea. Lifetimer, here, I approve of the idea.

kamokami

I support the idea. Clearly the current system in place is not enough to discourage even very explicit trolling.

The other idea would be to change the mechanics of the fights such that they are troll-proof.

warcanch

Simple and elegant solution ... ergo, can't be done here.

I'm very tired of those sessions where I have limited time to play and it is ruined by this form of trolling.

I support this idea. Otherwise, I will vote with my $ and spend and play elsewhere more.​​

themightyzenith

lezard21 said:

The increased activity of these trolls has been encouraged by the fact that despite multiple reports both ingame and via ticket with videoproof (one such video is even posted here in the forums) by multiple players, the trolls remain unbanned. This also brings bad PR as a consequence to the game, discouraging people from running endgame (further reinforced by the currently bugged Eido, but that's something for another topic).

Sounds like the players covered everything by giving all proof needed in reports to the GMs (or GM, I think there's only one). This type of community spirit is good. If this is all true then it sounds like the GM isn't performing as per the definition of their job. Maybe that's all that needs changing

I prefer actual employed GMs over player volunteers. I think they would act more independently and be free of any type of in-game friendship bias.

warcanch

Player volunteers would be doing it for they game of their choice, too. Paid GMs cover all or most of PWEs' games. I know I would only VGM for CO.​​

kamokami

themightyzenith said:

I prefer actual employed GMs over player volunteers. I think they would act more independently and be free of any type of in-game friendship bias.

The OP's suggestion is being made because that doesn't appear to be an option. I think they address it in their post.

lezard21 said:

This is why, since hiring more GMs is probably out of the question, I suggest the implementation of an Ingame Community Moderator system.

themightyzenith

kamokami said:

The OP's suggestion is being made because that doesn't appear to be an option. I think they address it in their post.

Then maybe it can be suggested by management that the current GM do a better job. I think I addressed it in my post...

themightyzenith said:

If this is all true then it sounds like the GM isn't performing as per the definition of their job. Maybe that's all that needs changing

warcanch said:

Player volunteers would be doing it for they game of their choice, too. Paid GMs cover all or most of PWEs' games. I know I would only VGM for CO.​​

I have no idea if a GM for CO automatically means they cover all (or most) PW games. Even if it does, I'd rather that than a player volunteer for the reasons I stated earlier.

kamokami

themightyzenith said:

Then maybe it can be suggested by management that the current GM do a better job. I think I addressed it in my post...

Based on how long this has gone on for and how little attention the game gets of this sort that doesn't appear to be an option either. Either the suggestion has been made with no effect or the GM is already doing the best that they can do under their circumstances.

themightyzenith said:

Even if it does, I'd rather that than a player volunteer for the reasons I stated earlier.

I also would rather have a fancy dinner instead of yesterday's pizza. But I'd much rather have yesterday's pizza than starve. And we are starving.

themightyzenith

kamokami said:

Based on how long this has gone on for and how little attention the game gets of this sort that doesn't appear to be an option either. Either the suggestion has been made with no effect or the GM is already doing the best that they can do under their circumstances.

The problem that the OP brings up isn't one of needing more GMs. If it's true that proof of this "trolling" has been given repeatedly in the form of reports then it's a failure of reacting to said reports, in this instance. We really don't know why it hasn't been acted upon. How long has this situation with trolling at Cosmics been going on?

kamokami said:

I also would rather have a fancy dinner instead of yesterday's pizza. But I'd much rather have yesterday's pizza than starve. And we are starving.

Hyperbole aside, I'd rather have a healthy dinner than one that is gonna repeat on me all next day.

jennymachx

If you have a Nvidia GPU that supports GeForce Experience, download it, set it up so that you can record ingame videos, particularly that of the described trolling. If not, HyperCam works too.

Once you've done it, do the necessary trimming with Windows Movie Maker (free), upload the video to a file sharing site, preferably one that supports online streaming. Open a ticket and put the video file sharing link in it while describing the trolling activity.

These tools are out there and are a free resource. Make use of them.

That's about the best course of action I can think of when a live GM isn't available, and I doubt Cryptic has any interest giving players the power to ban other players, no matter how temporary and how justified the reason may be. That kind of power and responsibility has to be regulated, and typically that's why employees do it. Heck, volunteer moderators don't even have the power to ban people on the forums to begin with, we're going to somehow expect them to be able to do it ingame?

pwestolemyname

themightyzenith said:

If this is all true then it sounds like the GM isn't performing as per the definition of their job. Maybe that's all that needs changing

To which GM are you referring? As far as I know, there are no current GMS and have not been for quite some time.

Lezard's suggestion is excellent as it solves all of the problems. I would prefer Kamo's idea of making the fights untrollable, but that has been discussed since well before the release of Cosmics on live and the management has shown no interest in doing anything in that direction.

kamokami

themightyzenith said:

How long has this situation with trolling at Cosmics been going on?

Long enough for hope in your solution to have died.

themightyzenith said:

Hyperbole aside, I'd rather have a healthy dinner than one that is gonna repeat on me all next day.

Hyperbole aside, we don't get to have the healthy dinner. We've all been waiting for it and waiting hasn't worked.

themightyzenith

jennymachx said:

That's about the best course of action I can think of when a live GM isn't available, and I doubt Cryptic has any interest giving players the power to ban other players, no matter how temporary and how justified the reason may be. That kind of power and responsibility has to be regulated, and typically that's why employees do it. Heck, volunteer moderators don't even have the power to ban people on the forums to begin with, we're going to somehow expect them to be able to do it ingame?

Nailed

themightyzenith

kamokami said:

Long enough for hope in your solution to have died.

So how long?

kamokami said:

Hyperbole aside, we don't get to have the healthy dinner. We've all been waiting for it and waiting hasn't worked.

How long have you been waiting since the first proper report with decent video proof was given?

blockwave

Please do, our end-game is thin enough, we don't need kids in their basements ruining them by trolling.

ealford1985

Sorry but MG is right on this one. In no way will a CO support in game player moderation. Navi is still the GM as far as I know and when he isn’t copy pasting email replies there are a few more which I think span the Perfect World games.

Costume Contest have been trolled in the past for weeks before...same guy has been in zone spouting nonsense to cause carnage for years and there are still ToS Violating SGs making clones.

Welcome to CO.

But as neat as that would be, no it won’t happen, ever.

darqaura2

If not this suggestion then something else or the population for cosmics will dwindle to nothing.

And it's been going on for at least two months. I took a break came back and the same folks were still doing it.

If CO has a GM you could have fooled me.

shadowolf505

blockwave said:

Please do, our end-game is thin enough, we don't need kids in their basements ruining them by trolling.

I'm in the living room!

kaiserin

If someone in game is breaking the terms of service (be it trolling, using an exploit, foul language, etc) it should be reported to customer service via the in game function.

- Report the incident as close as possible to when it occurred.
- If you're reporting someone committing some sort of in game act, like an exploit or acts of trolling, evidence of the incident needs to be provided. Video is the best method.​​

biffsmackwell

I don't see it happening. There was one particular user who wreaked havoc on the forums for EVER, someone who was so persistent in trolling that they literally would be banned every few days or so and would make new accounts. I asked for the ability to ban this person (JUST this person) and instead they implemented some workaround where they put this player on a universal mute, so he could post and could see his posts going up, but no one else would see them. When they caught on to this, they would just make a new account to get around it. I would still have to file daily reports on this person to get them muted. Being the only moderator for the boards (the other guy they picked had moved on to other games) it was literally taking hours of my day to keep the forums clean.

Finally they saw how bad it was and they gave me the ability to ban people (but just for this person). So I would ban this person probably like, daily, for weeks, probably months, I forget. But the fact that it took the world's most persistent troll months and months of continuous trolling and hours upon hours of work for me, before they trusted me with forum bans leads me to believe that it won't ever happen for in-game moderation.

The potential for abuse is absolutely magnified in an in-game situation. But I think this could be countered with serious repercussions for abuse of moderation. Like if someone is found to have abused the thing once, give them a lengthy ban and remove their moderator status. Nobody is going to risk their entire account for being able to ban someone for an hour. I know I wouldn't. Make it a ban by committee. Get, say, ten or so people to moderate, and have maybe three or five or whatever sign off on it before the person can get banned (this could lead to allowing troll behavior if not enough moderators are on, but that's the price you'd pay for the security of player-run moderation; I think it's a fair tradeoff). Have players that have racked up a certain amount of bans to go through a review for a permanent ban. I think it would also be beneficial to somehow find a list of players who don't "run in the same groups" so people don't start calling clique-banning. Cuz that absolutely 100% will happen.

Alternately to bans, I think if a trolling player could be placed on some kind of passive mode while in the Open Mission area, where they can't affect or be affected by anything pertaining to the mission, would also be a fair tradeoff, so long as again, you have a committee of players signing off on it. That way Cryptic/PWE doesn't get customers angry that their game service hasn't been cut by other players (which I can see as being an issue for them) since if they get put in passive mode for the Open Mission, they could still go out and do something else in the game.

But still, at the end of the day I don't see any of this happening. I haven't been in the game for the better part of a month now for several reasons, but I can imagine how frustrating continued trolling can be, and a lack of official response on the matter is a shame. Hopefully Cryptic can figure something cost-effective out.

lezard21

biffsmackwell said:

The potential for abuse is absolutely magnified in an in-game situation. But I think this could be countered with serious repercussions for abuse of moderation. Like if someone is found to have abused the thing once, give them a lengthy ban and remove their moderator status. Nobody is going to risk their entire account for being able to ban someone for an hour. I know I wouldn't. Make it a ban by committee. Get, say, ten or so people to moderate, and have maybe three or five or whatever sign off on it before the person can get banned (this could lead to allowing troll behavior if not enough moderators are on, but that's the price you'd pay for the security of player-run moderation; I think it's a fair tradeoff). Have players that have racked up a certain amount of bans to go through a review for a permanent ban. I think it would also be beneficial to somehow find a list of players who don't "run in the same groups" so people don't start calling clique-banning. Cuz that absolutely 100% will happen.

This is a good suggestion.

jennymachx

The potential for abuse when given ban powers, even temporary ones, is the main reason why I don't want to see players doing any sort of policing and moderation towards other players.

Whatever the case, it's all just fancy talk and pointless complaining when there isn't an effort put into getting clear indisputable evidence. As I've mentioned earlier, the tools are there. Setting up ingame recording software to work with the game is brain-dead easy and is activated with the push of a key.

And if you feel that's it isn't your job to record and submit the evidence to support, that's fine. But if it's something you face on a regular basis and would like something to be done about it since we have a lack of active GM support, then being proactive about it can help set these abusive people straight.

lezard21

jennymachx said:

The potential for abuse when given ban powers, even temporary ones, is the main reason why I don't want to see players doing any sort of policing and moderation towards other players.

Whatever the case, it's all just fancy talk and pointless complaining when there isn't an effort put into getting clear indisputable evidence. As I've mentioned earlier, the tools are there. Setting up ingame recording software to work with the game is brain-dead easy and is activated with the push of a key.

And if you feel that's it isn't your job to record and submit the evidence to support, that's fine. But if it's something you face on a regular basis and would like something to be done about it since we have a lack of active GM support, then being proactive about it can help set these abusive people straight.

1) You do know a lot of people here are older than 12 right? Smackwell here has been forum mod for years and never abused his powers, limited as they are. I think it would be safe to asume that the position of Ingame Moderator, if it were to be implemented, will not be given to any rando that shows up the door but to members that have been active throughout the years and have a clean slate. And since those players have been active through the years and probably have accounts full of hard earned stuff, I am willing to bet that they wouldn't risk getting banned and losing it all just to troll someone by banning them for 1 hour just cause.


2) I appreciate your quick guide on how to set a video recording program. But the thing is, the videos were sent. As well as parsers. I think only now has one of the trolls been banned after almost 3 weeks of constant trolling. I've sent reports in the past about players trolling Cosmics and they were dealt with with much more haste than they have currently been. I fully understand that CS/GMs are understaffed plus it's a post holiday time of year. Hence the suggestion to try an alternative method of dealing with minor issues before they escalate to the point that they have currently escalated.

biffsmackwell

Oops ninja'd because I forgot to hit the post button. :P

I think the problem (and the cause for this thread) is that the players HAVE done these things, as they've been told (record the incidents and make reports) but it's not working.

kamokami

biffsmackwell said:

I think the problem (and the cause for this thread) is that the players HAVE done these things, as they've been told (record the incidents and make reports) but it's not working.

Exactly. And yeah maybe letting players ban others would not happen. But instead the content could be made less troll-able.

themightyzenith said:

So how long?

2 months just for this latest troll. It started out with just one troll, now we have 2 that are active. Maybe we'll get 3 pretty soon.

All the suggestions around recording video and sending parses and screenshots have been done and done by multiple people. Nothing's come of it.

jonesing4

lezard21 said:

1) You do know a lot of people here are older than 12 right? Smackwell here has been forum mod for years and never abused his powers, limited as they are. I think it would be safe to asume that the position of Ingame Moderator, if it were to be implemented, will not be given to any rando that shows up the door but to members that have been active throughout the years and have a clean slate. And since those players have been active through the years and probably have accounts full of hard earned stuff, I am willing to bet that they wouldn't risk getting banned and losing it all just to troll someone by banning them for 1 hour just cause.

Not only that, but any person, in any position, has the potential to abuse their power. A paid employee of PWE could abuse their power just as well as an in-game mod, just as well as the head of the company, the presidents of whatever countries each of us live in, your parents, your dog, your internet company, etc.

In other words, I don't think I would reject this idea because a player/moderator just might do something they shouldn't. That's a risk in life, but you still need people with the power to do certain things. Getting rid of trolls is one of those things people need to be able to do.

biffsmackwell

kamokami said:

And yeah maybe letting players ban others would not happen. But instead the content could be made less troll-able.

I think it's the best way to go, but this was really a known issue from the start so I feel it's unlikely to change now, but would be happy to be wrong about that.

themightyzenith

kamokami said:

2 months just for this latest troll. It started out with just one troll, now we have 2 that are active. Maybe we'll get 3 pretty soon.

All the suggestions around recording video and sending parses and screenshots have been done and done by multiple people. Nothing's come of it.

Then Cryptic needs to up it's game. If this is true and the videos sent to them have the requisite information for action to be taken then they should take more care of the player base by simply dealing with these guys directly.

I haven't really seen a thread (unless I missed it during the holidays), with lots of support from many of the players affected, asking Cryptic to seriously take some action on this. I think that should be the first step before jumping straight to a volunteer player GM system that would still need oversight/organising/ongoing supervision by official PW or Cryptic GMs.

I'm not ruling out completely that such a system could possibly work, but I have serious concerns and doubts about it.

jennymachx

Well maybe any long-standing unanswered abuse reports can be taken up with Kaiserin? She responded in this thread saying that the effective way of punishing the trolls is by submitting the ticket with video evidence after all.

kaiserin

Closing this thread as I've had to clean up a few posts and I can see it quickly becoming a witch hunt.

Player in-game moderators is not going to happen, way too much that can go wrong.

I will reiterate: if someone is trolling in game, please submit video evidence to customer support. If the issue persists, feel free to make me aware of it. I am not customer service and cannot take any action, but I can try to make sure customer service is aware of it.​​