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Should hybrids/tuff dps have more of a role at cosmics?

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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,704 Arc User
    If I'm using Tanya Wilson I'll run hybrid at Cosmics because I know she isn't up to the challenge of tanking a Cosmic. Everything else I run her as Tank. And sometimes I actually tank things. :D
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  • shadowolf505shadowolf505 Posts: 662 Arc User
    I would love for hybrid builds to be more useful at Cosmic battles, honestly. Allows people to use some stuff like melee and ranged powers to their advantage. Such as a melee attacker for Kiga but if tombs aren't close, you use a ranged attack to destroy it.
    Link to my build thread on Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1346940077
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,493 Arc User

    Such as a melee attacker for Kiga but if tombs aren't close, you use a ranged attack to destroy it.

    Nothing preventing you from doing that right now, it's just that your ranged attack winds up kinda sucking compared to an actual ranged attacker.
  • shadowolf505shadowolf505 Posts: 662 Arc User
    True true. I actually used to use a hybrid Invulnerability passive build mixed with electricity and might at a point in time and it did well enough at Cosmics. Then I just decided to run an actual viable role such as a DPS or a Tank at Cosmics.
    Link to my build thread on Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1346940077
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    @shadowolf505 in game, same on the forums too.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,493 Arc User

    I don't like the idea of adding more annoying things to fights that are already annoying.

    Well, useful dealing with adds often involves moving them away from the main fight, and thus means less dealing with the annoyances of the main fight.

    Not all hybrids can hold aggro so making things spawn that need to be distracted away from the DPS is not a good idea.

    It doesn't take a lot to hold aggro if other people aren't attacking whatever it is.

    This would also require more healers (possibly)...

    Generally the strength of hybrids is their ability to function unsupported. If you don't want to be durable, play a dps.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,704 Arc User

    I don't like the idea of adding more annoying things to fights that are already annoying. Also wut the deuce is "tuff dps?" Tough DPS? :P

    Not all hybrids can hold aggro so making things spawn that need to be distracted away from the DPS is not a good idea. This would also require more healers (possibly)...

    The idea is for characters who can break off hitting the boss and kill(not tank) the ads. :p
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,493 Arc User

    I don't like the idea of adding more annoying things to fights that are already annoying. Also wut the deuce is "tuff dps?" Tough DPS? :P

    Not all hybrids can hold aggro so making things spawn that need to be distracted away from the DPS is not a good idea. This would also require more healers (possibly)...

    The idea is for characters who can break off hitting the boss and kill(not tank) the ads. :p
    Most of the time dps will be better at that. Hybrid is better at true soloing, but if you're using more than one person to deal with adds, it's going to either be 'all dps' or '1 self-sufficient tank/tanky hybrid, others dps'.

    When I'm solo tanking Gravitar, I normally change my tank's role to hybrid, because I rarely need the extra threat, and the extra heal strength is more valuable than the damage resistance bonus from tank role, but not sure that really is what people want out of hybrids.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,747 Arc User

    Most of the time dps will be better at that. Hybrid is better at true soloing, but if you're using more than one person to deal with adds, it's going to either be 'all dps' or '1 self-sufficient tank/tanky hybrid, others dps'.

    That might be what happens, or a few dps might be designated to break off and help with adds, or the hybrids would move away and get rid of them on their own, or some other variation of a tactic. Lots of things could happen with a theoretical encounter. Hell it's hard enough to predict how players are going to react when you actually have a finished encounter ready to be uploaded in front of you. Trying to make predictions based a general idea doesn't work out so well.

    Depends on how the adds are designed though :/



    Putting tough adds in the fight just lowers the overall DPS on the boss because there is a limited number of players that can be in the zone and hybrids would be taking up other players' spots like I said, and if you lower the boss' health to compensate for this, it might make the fight too easy

    Depends on how the adds are designed though ;)


    Also does anyone have ideas other than adds? I feel like we're focusing overly much on picking that apart and not enough on thinking of new things. Hell I already criticized the idea plenty in the OP ^_^
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,704 Arc User
    If the adds aren't standing on top of the boss then it's not so easy for a DPSer to change focus. Especially if there is still the risk of the boss hitting them with an AoE while they deal with the add.

    Other things.... One I proposed in an earlier thread was something much like the Nightmare Invasion mechanic, but where the device spawns at a random location and people have to go hunt it down and smash it.
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  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Posts: 462 Arc User
    I think that adds just get DPSed, so they don't matter.

    If they aren't near the boss then they don't matter.

    It really gets into the problem that the devs face when trying to design encounters.

    I mean, how can you design an encounter for everyone to participate that gives every "pure" role value but that also allows for hybrids to make contributions that are just as valuable?

    There have been some fights, not usually a cosmic fight unless things have gone horribly wrong, where I have seen an advantage in switching from DPS to tank during the fight, but the hybrid role is something that I don't see a lot of use for outside of soloing.

    As I try to think of things that could be added to a group encounter that might be a better fit for a hybrid than a "real" tank (and to me that would be the only hybrid combo worth figuring out; A defensive passive on a non-tank. Not seeing how a support passive would help if there were "real" support toons in the group and a damage passive is just silly for a hybrid to me) it always seems to go back to "just use a "real" tank and keep some "real" DPS standing by to deal with it".


    Here's my best thought right now, but it's rough:

    If there was some other element involved that was trying to shield the boss (whatever the main target is) then that would have to be dealt with.

    This element could not be slept or stunned, so the only way to keep it from shielding the boss was damage. After taking damage it could not attempt to shield for X time, so it attacked. This is where the character needing a defense would come in.

    The thing is, why couldn't these characters trying to stop the shielding just be tanks themselves?

    Would they need to pass a damage check to prevent the shielding? What sorts of attacks/damage do these things do that would make sending DPS out on the job a bad idea?

    The margin of error to force hybrids into a scenario starts approaches zero, doesn't it?

    I mean, someone should be able to bubble/heal a DPS to allow them to do the job, right? Or just have a tank and a DPSer to make sure the DPS check passes.

    The only way to keep those from being options is that if you pretty much require everyone in the zone to fill some specific role somewhere else, right?

    You have a 50 person zone and have specific jobs for 50 people.
    You need 10 CCers keeping things CCed.
    You need 10 tanks doing tanky things.
    You need 27 DPS hitting whatever.

    That leaves three slots, and those slots require "tough DPS". Only not too much DPS because the "tough" part takes away from the "DPS" part, and not too "tough" because DPS is still important to the job.

    But how often would such a thing get done? Just getting the team together would almost certainly be more trouble than it was worth.

    So now it starts to get into instanced activity.

    A 5 person team that required a tank, a support toon, two DPS, and a hybrid could maybe be a thing.
    Heck, make it where the instance kicks the group if it doesn't have those roles.

    Don't need to worry about what role the hybrid will have in such a case, they just have to design the encounters knowing that someone in the team will be doing less DPS then the DPSers and be able to take less damage than the tank, but that they will be doing (or not doing, depending upon your perspective) those things at the same time.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,704 Arc User
    Actually, my idea was enemies that spawn in random locations that give the boss a damage resist damage bonus from far enough away that you can't just have the DPS blast them.
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  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,071 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    It is difficult to make Hybrid with defensive passive power slotted but we can make DPS having good amount of defense.
    My EGO/DEX/REC build with [Id Mastery] has some resistance bonus and 418 as defense. But CON is 10 so the Health is low though.



    [The Best Defense] in skill tree provides me good offense too.

    [Quantum Stabilizer] also provides resistance. I think we have several offensive passive powers with resistance bonus.

    I recommend to build ether Melee or Ranged DPS tough, much better then trying to deal damage by Hybrid / Protector role.
    Hybrid / Protector are only good at soloing QWZ or doing PvP.
    DPS builds are good in mission having timer such like the FIREWING and also for Cosmic hunt.

    My STR/CON/REC Haymaker build is also bit tough. For sample.

    Haymaker STR/CON/REC - Freeform
    Post edited by monaahiru on
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,747 Arc User
    edited October 2017
  • royalflvshroyalflvsh Posts: 164 Arc User
    To the OP: Sorry, but respectfully, no.

    I've had to learn tanking and true DPS. It's been a painful and informative journey. I've gotten help directly or indirectly from many who've posted here. But the answer is no.

    Cosmics are for the big boys and girls. Not hybrids, generally speaking, who will water us down.
  • riveroceanriverocean Posts: 1,667 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    It's 100% possible to build a hybrid with enough DPS to contribute to Cosmics. The issue isn't the hybrid role, as much as crappy hybrid builds. But such a build will do even more damage in DPS role with an offensive passive. So most people just build a dual passive character and switch roles.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,493 Arc User

    It's 100% possible to build a hybrid with enough DPS to contribute to Cosmics. The issue isn't the hybrid role, as much as crappy hybrid builds. But such a build will do even more damage in DPS role with an offensive passive. So most people just build a dual passive character and switch roles.

    It's actually something of a problem that most of the benefits of offensive passives are features of offensive role, rather than the passive itself, whereas most of the benefits of defensive passives are features of the passive, rather than the role. Buffing offensive passives and nerfing offensive roles has a certain logic.

    However, as it is, the point of hybrid role is to use a defensive passive with better energy, offense, and healing than you'd get in tank role. Using support passives in hybrid is actively detrimental to the team, and with an offensive passive you're sacrificing a 25% damage increase for a modest bump to healing (you can do the same thing, at a much smaller dps cost, by slotting a sentinel mod in your primary offense).
  • royalflvshroyalflvsh Posts: 164 Arc User
    Riverocean, that's why I said generally speaking.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,704 Arc User

    It's 100% possible to build a hybrid with enough DPS to contribute to Cosmics. The issue isn't the hybrid role, as much as crappy hybrid builds. But such a build will do even more damage in DPS role with an offensive passive. So most people just build a dual passive character and switch roles.

    Well, assuming the build in question HAS an offensive passive... But yeah a second passive is a good choice for the old "what am I gonna fill this empty skill slot with" on freeforms. But some builds have weird stuff tossed in because they're not optimized for cosmics at all. Often builds that work GREAT everywhere but cosmics.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,747 Arc User
    edited October 2017

    To the OP: Sorry, but respectfully, no.



    I've had to learn tanking and true DPS. It's been a painful and informative journey. I've gotten help directly or indirectly from many who've posted here. But the answer is no.



    Cosmics are for the big boys and girls. Not hybrids, generally speaking, who will water us down.

    None of what you said really made any sense. So what, you had to learn how to tank and how to build a decent dps. So now that you figured out how to use specialized builds nobody should feel useful using a more generalized build?

    Also what is this "big boys and girls" nonsense.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,493 Arc User

    Often builds that work GREAT everywhere but cosmics.

    If a build that works 'great' everywhere but cosmics is inadequate for cosmics, your definition of 'great' is ... not great. There are things that are far easier to do with a hybrid and a defensive passive than with an offensive build (e.g. soloing Blood Moon crypts) but any 'tough dps' that's reasonably built and played is sufficient for anything but Eido.
  • riveroceanriverocean Posts: 1,667 Arc User
    >@pantagruel01 said:
    > It's actually something of a problem that most of the benefits of offensive passives are features of offensive role, rather than the passive itself, whereas most of the benefits of defensive passives are features of the passive, rather than the role. Buffing offensive passives and nerfing offensive roles has a certain logic.
    >
    > However, as it is, the point of hybrid role is to use a defensive passive with better energy, offense, and healing than you'd get in tank role. Using support passives in hybrid is actively detrimental to the team, and with an offensive passive you're sacrificing a 25% damage increase for a modest bump to healing (you can do the same thing, at a much smaller dps cost, by slotting a sentinel mod in your primary offense).

    You hit the heart of the problem right here. Some poor player comes into zone with his/her AOPM DPS Hybrid build - and gets chastised. Immediately, having to switch to support role if they want in on the run.

    Unless, the poor sap happens to be playing an AT like the Grimoire. Then they are just out of luck. Support passives should simply work the same regardless of role --- providing equal benefit to the caster as they do to team mates. That change alone would end this debate.

    *As I understand it, this was how support passives originally worked.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,493 Arc User

    Support passives should simply work the same regardless of role --- providing equal benefit to the caster as they do to team mates. That change alone would end this debate.



    *As I understand it, this was how support passives originally worked.

    Sort of. Originally the way support passives worked was that they scaled on Presence (for everyone). However, the presence scaling for AoPM was extremely weak, so it was a perfectly useful passive without any investment in Presence.

    Eventually, they decided to revamp passives to not be dependent on specific superstats, but they decided that team support should still be based on Presence. This was a problem for those people with AoPM and no Presence, so they invented hybrid mode variants on the aura passives that were basically personal rather than team support. This allowed you to continue using those builds that didn't have much Presence.

    This wasn't actually a problem at the time, the real problem came later: it was observed that aura stacking was a bit overpowered, and so they implemented a method that limited aura stacking. Unfortunately, the method they came up with had the side effect that adding together two auras could under some circumstances give a result that was weaker than a single aura, at which point those hybrid auras became a liability. It's also not something that can be fixed by making hybrid auras work like support auras, because those hybrid players might still not have much Presence.

    Plausible fixes:
    1. Hybrid auras don't affect other players at all.
    2. All auras scale on superstats for all targets and have the same bonuses in all roles.
    3. Change the diminishing returns formula so adding two auras is always a net positive.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,704 Arc User

    Often builds that work GREAT everywhere but cosmics.

    If a build that works 'great' everywhere but cosmics is inadequate for cosmics, your definition of 'great' is ... not great. There are things that are far easier to do with a hybrid and a defensive passive than with an offensive build (e.g. soloing Blood Moon crypts) but any 'tough dps' that's reasonably built and played is sufficient for anything but Eido.
    As I said in another thread, my regen tank can tank anything but a Cosmic. I even managed to tank anniversary Megas. I've done Crypt runs with her and lowbies and managed to tank bosses well enough to keep the lowbies from getting squashed.

    And for Cosmics this character is of little use because she's not one of a short list of "optimized" build types..
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,493 Arc User

    As I said in another thread, my regen tank can tank anything but a Cosmic.

    We were discussing 'tuff dps', not tanks, though regen will work just fine for a soak tank or baby tank as long as you have a decent amount of Con.

    And for Cosmics this character is of little use because she's not one of a short list of "optimized" build types.

    As long as you don't generate problematic levels of threat (it should be enough to unslot confronts if you have them and change role to hybrid) you should be able to dps at ape and kiga. For the dino, there's a good chance you could be useful, it's not hard to accomplish at least one of 'enough spike damage for a dps check' and 'enough durability to baby or side tank'.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,704 Arc User
    Enh... the basic discussion is about characters that don't fit into the pigeonholed roles currently used. I suppose an actual tank is a weak example, though.
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  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    I recently retconned my main DPS (sorcery) so that he can switch to hybrid AoPM when going solo, or even support AoPM if the Cosmic fight he is in lacks that aura. It's working great.

    I had to sacrifice my team-rez for this dual-passive capability, plus one rank off of my AO. Though I miss being able to rez, the ability to switch to AoPM on the fly proved useful during the first Dino run I did after this new build.

    tl;dr: If you really like your FF tuff DPS, dump one power and make your toon dual passive, as others have noted.
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