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No changes inc to Rampage broken token?.

diggotdiggot Posts: 309 Arc User

For weeks now i've spoken to several players who has spent days or entire weekends grinding Rampages on several
L40 characters without getting a Token to drop for Justice gear. One person spent 53+ Rampages without anything but
Q and gold as reward, while others gets a token on the first run...

I've spoken to people on YouTube that were running or partually handling the CO-channel where i was told a change
was coming to the token system to reward players better, instead of trusting ladyluck that seldom pays out.

My own experiences from this flawed system tells scary stories and is ample evidence that it's broken and needs to change.
I've spent weekends farming on 4-5 characters, 40-50 Rampages without seing a single token drop, and on other occasions
i have had a token drop on the very first rampage. Waay too much chance is involved in this system to decide the outcome
against or in favor of a players efforts in attaining the currency to gear up.

Like so many has said, both in game and on forums. When you work for a boss, at the end of the month/week when
the boss comes to deliver the paycheck, he doesn't come to you and say "sorry, you got unlucky and get no paycheck this time".

So... with the renewal of the Sub incoming, i'd really like a simple YES or NO from anything who has ACTUALL KNOWLEDGE
of any incoming changes. Is the system acknowledged by devs as flawed or is it working as intended, to reward some players
on the very first try, while continuing to refuse other players despite 50+ tries.

It's a simple request on a very simple question.. Yes or NO.

Comments

  • rtmartma Posts: 1,198 Arc User
    You don't' expect to get the highest (Current) Tier of gear so quickly now do you? I mean look what they did to poor Heroics, same principal.
    Want to get to know me a bit better, Click me and take a read of My Dragon Profile Page, it's a bit dated but still relevant.

    I take this quote from a review that I agree with.

    "customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
  • rtmartma Posts: 1,198 Arc User
    gradii said:

    rtma said:

    You don't' expect to get the highest (Current) Tier of gear so quickly now do you? I mean look what they did to poor Heroics, same principal.

    Getting it quickly is still possible if you have ridiculous luck. This is a fatally flawed system in which you do not EARN gear, you GAMBLE for it.

    Take a look at how much better games like STO do things for a moment (Rep System, Fleet gear) and you'll see how much we've been had.
    Well, that's Randomness for you or the best way to explain said algorithm in place to give rewards, Gambling is Lockboxes cause you don't know what you get either, just a list on what you may get and the expense of paying for it, Rampages is Time mainly, same with grinding SCR for Heroics, but at-least you know you'll get them eventually, unlike Justice Tokens, I was referring to Time, it all takes Time, that's what I gather with the MMO Genre, Time Sinks/Grind Bait, but it's up to you how you enjoy the game, play for fun and rewards are just for a job well done, or worry over Rewards that the game turns into a job... anyone's choice in the matter.

    On a side note I haven't played STO so if you can explain the system there if you want, I don't intend to play it.
    Want to get to know me a bit better, Click me and take a read of My Dragon Profile Page, it's a bit dated but still relevant.

    I take this quote from a review that I agree with.

    "customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
  • sammiefightersammiefighter Posts: 92 Arc User
    rtma said:


    On a side note I haven't played STO so if you can explain the system there if you want, I don't intend to play it.

    Quick summary:

    Rep System: Multi-tier token grind, get tokens to unlock shop and "crafting". Use tokens and time currency (Q/Dil/AD) to craft rep-gear, I forget what the shops use as currency. A few other bonuses along the way (power), tokens can be turned in for time-currency when you are fully unlocked. Addition to game adds new currency shop and grind and content nugget to play. Essentially 1-2 new queue/alert, or small play area if you are lucky. All character locked IIRC.

    SCR token system is close, get tokens, get your gear, when your done shove token gear to alts or buy mods. No Q source, but no Q sink either. Trade-ability of SCR stuff huge advantage for CO.

    Fleet system is a 'super group' . Honestly, it's a just a big in game resource and time sink. After you build your multiple fleets sections over multiple levels and sub-levels ( or get into a developed one) then you get to buy gear too. So grind on your grind! with the benefit of heavy use of time-currency .. so pay-for-power issues, and a big have/have-not barrier. Same as NW guild system now if you play that.

  • diggotdiggot Posts: 309 Arc User
    We have 5 stages of gear, from Mercenary to Distinguished, but the issue is that despite the 5 stages of gear, getting the 2 starter-sets is already a painstaking grind. You need 150.000 Q for full set of Merc - a set which according to many is useless and not worth getting. Then you need to spend hours and hours farming for the next level, which still isn't good enough according to the majority of players - Heroic gear.
    Not until you get Justice items full of R5-7mods, are you really good enough geared, and getting Justice gear is currently based on the broken rewardsystem in Rampages. The amount of effort needed to get the items should be equal to the ingame value and usefullness compared to endgame content, and also compared to the amount of different sets.

    Mercenary shouldn't require much effort OR time to get - this is the introductionset to 40.
    Heroic should require some effort and time to get, but not too much - should drop from Elite AP bosses.
    Legion should require some dedication and teamwork - possibly taking down Cosmic bosses with 100% dropchance.
    Heirloom should require dedication and previous gear to be able to beat the instances and attain the set.
    Distinguished is the top-of-the-line items and should only be attained by the most dedicated raiders.

    And to quote another player from ingame. It wouldn't hurt to have a two-way reward system for everything.. you get both currency and a chance for an itemdrop. So if you aren't lucky with an itemdrop, you are 100% guaranteed a token, and you don't need hundreds of tokens for an item - but these items are BoP.

    I don't expect things for free. But i DO expect a ladder of effort needed, appropriate to the value of the items and their position in game. The better items, the more effort... NOT insane effort and grind from the start.
  • kaiserin#0958 kaiserin Posts: 3,078 Cryptic Developer
    edited May 2016
    At some point we would like to switch Rampages over to GCR. However, Rampages are currently not at the difficulty level we would like them at to award that currency. There are also other issues with Rampages that need to be addressed like average completion time being very different from Rampage to Rampage.

    So until we are able to take a look at Rampages, their token system will not be changed. There is no ETA on this.​​
  • royalflvshroyalflvsh Posts: 165 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    Persistence is more key that luck in obtaining Justice Gear. I'm a fairly casual player, but I was able to gear up all of my 40s within a year plus change, once I realized you could share tokens between your heroes. Get several 40s and run each on the rampage once or twice a day. You'll get tokens, I guarantee it. I'm naturally lucky, but I feel like some people aren't trying hard enough. Good idea, DaZee! Three rampages a day makes sense. A daily, for GCR! And Kaiserin, thanks for the good intentions, but rampages are one component of Champions that I feel fill its intended niche.
  • diggotdiggot Posts: 309 Arc User
    kaizerin said:

    At some point we would like to switch Rampages over to GCR. However, Rampages are currently not at the difficulty level we would like them at to award that currency. There are also other issues with Rampages that need to be addressed like average completion time being very different from Rampage to Rampage.



    So until we are able to take a look at Rampages, their token system will not be changed. There is no ETA on this.​​

    Thank you very much for taking ur time to reply Kaizerin, greatly appreciated <3 .

    Sadly, now i know nothing will change and due to this, i will keep boycotting Rampages because i simply refuse to play something broken and will now look elsewhere for entertainment. I was going back to Warframe, but their Prime-loot system and loot-table on higher voids is also broken...

    Will probably get Warhammer TW or just install Sacred-II.. A shame, i really like CO, but i just can't turn a blind eye to the issues.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,424 Arc User
    Working on set #24 of JG.
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  • draogndraogn Posts: 1,269 Arc User
    kaizerin said:

    At some point we would like to switch Rampages over to GCR. However, Rampages are currently not at the difficulty level we would like them at to award that currency. There are also other issues with Rampages that need to be addressed like average completion time being very different from Rampage to Rampage.



    So until we are able to take a look at Rampages, their token system will not be changed. There is no ETA on this.​​


    The queues for rampages are long enough, making them harder would only make that worse. Continuing to alienate the part of the playerbase who has stuck around, even during the few past few years, isn't good for the game.

  • royalflvshroyalflvsh Posts: 165 Arc User
    @DaZee, I know some of people use the same toon to farm tokens for hours. When you do that, as I understand it, your odds diminish considerably. I usually get a token in the first 3 runs on a toon, or not at all. Switching it up is a viable strategy. And no need to be cross, I thought I was agreeing with you.

    @jaazaniah1, congratulations, brother. You are persistent, and you're still one of my favorite people to run F&I with.

    @draogn, I couldn't have said it better. I'd only add that rampages are the stepping stone to successfully completing the advanced new end content. And I don't mean the gear, though that certainly helps. It's the practice. Fighting Gravitar and company a hundred times takes you to a new level of play.
  • royalflvshroyalflvsh Posts: 165 Arc User
    Do you have any toons with JG? If not, then I understand. Your frustration is not with me. Sorry to have been so flippant; I'm just reporting my own experiences.

    At least now you can confidently farm GCR for Distinguished Gear.
  • diggotdiggot Posts: 309 Arc User
    gradii said:


    At least now you can confidently farm GCR for Distinguished Gear.

    Not really, since the latest changes to qwyjibo and kigatilik to make melee even more painful vs these bosses, coupled with the STUPIDLY RETARDEDLY high prices in both GCR and SCR of distinguished gear, Just NO.
    Yeah.. you have to squeeze harder and harder, and still no more juice.. not my cup of tea.

    250GCR and 500SCR for ONE item - dream on.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,424 Arc User
    Honestly, I'm not at all sure how I've managed to get 23+ sets now. Some will put it down to luck, but I don't believe in luck. Speaking only from my personal experience, I put it down to persistence, even through the dry spells that I also experience.

    Cosmics are only going to be useful for me for secondaries, not primaries.
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  • magpieuk2014magpieuk2014 Posts: 1,268 Arc User
    Rampages could be great and more popular with a few simple tweaks. However the devs are more likely to make a mess of them in order to make their latest lash-up job (the GCR system) work.

    It's a shame because they're getting lots of things right in other content but always seem to be too willing to break the game/builds in order to try and prop up failing ideas (TA, Onslaught).

    Other games would give a Rampage Fragment, as well as the RNG chance for a whole token, for each successful run. 25 of those Fragments (plus some Drifter Salvage) and you can get a JG token of your choice. One token, btw. So to grind a piece of Justice Gear you'd need a max of 200 successful Rampages and 50 DS. It's not generous, it does offer hope.

    After that they'd just need to make a few simple tweaks to F&I and LI and we'd be golden. Then they can go off and design something new for the GCR system without annoying everyone who doesn't enjoy that style of game play.
  • diggotdiggot Posts: 309 Arc User

    So to grind a piece of Justice Gear you'd need a max of 200 successful Rampages and 50 DS. It's not generous, it does offer hope.

    Having to do 200 Rampages to gear up is still way too much. Lets say each Rampage takes 15 minutes, that is 3000 minutes to gear up to Justice gear, think about that for a while, then consider how much of an improvement over Heroic gear it is.. and is those 3000minutes worth it?.

    I'm pretty sure alot of veterans has spent more then that, and still not completed 1 set - that is gamebreaking.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User

    Rampages could be great and more popular with a few simple tweaks. However the devs are more likely to make a mess of them in order to make their latest lash-up job (the GCR system) work.

    It's a shame because they're getting lots of things right in other content but always seem to be too willing to break the game/builds in order to try and prop up failing ideas (TA, Onslaught).

    Other games would give a Rampage Fragment, as well as the RNG chance for a whole token, for each successful run. 25 of those Fragments (plus some Drifter Salvage) and you can get a JG token of your choice. One token, btw. So to grind a piece of Justice Gear you'd need a max of 200 successful Rampages and 50 DS. It's not generous, it does offer hope.

    After that they'd just need to make a few simple tweaks to F&I and LI and we'd be golden. Then they can go off and design something new for the GCR system without annoying everyone who doesn't enjoy that style of game play.

    The fact that you think F&I is one of the problematic Rampages says a lot; it's arguably the best of the lot, though it's a somewhat uninspired fight. Looking at the problems with the Rampages:
    • Lemurian Invasion: starts with a tedious grind through a bunch of Lemurians, and then you have to deal with a not very dangerous boss that has an extremely annoying "chase the completely harmless but really fast Exocets" phase.
    • Gravitar: to a significant degree it's just a build test for "can you survive random no-tell force cascades to the face"; it also has some significant desync issues. TA Gravitar, while much higher damage overall, is far less annoying as most stuff can actually have a skill-based solution.
    • Sky Command: tedious and exploitable.
    • Fire and Ice: largely a build test (can healer and tank exceed Frosticus's damage output) but does require some level of thinking by other people.
  • magpieuk2014magpieuk2014 Posts: 1,268 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    The fact that you think F&I is one of the problematic Rampages says a lot;

    I'm crushed by your well-constructed criticism, that I am. Crushed. I may cry. :'(

    F&I is problematic because success is overly dependent on the Frost tank. Otherwise it has all the right elements... just not quite in the right order. Lower Frosticus's damage a little, increase Kenina's a lot, make the team elements like the Living Fire and Ice appear in other locations on the map (so that there are more points of focus which are critical to success - this is really important), and we're good.

    Sky Command has minimal issues - buff the Mega-Destroid's AoE attacks and make it immune to... well... the thing that'll be blindingly obvious if you play it.

    Gravitar - is what it is, team vs single villain fights are the most difficult to balance, Gravi is at least amusing and there's no value in making her the same as she is in TA.

    LI - this is the one with the biggest issues. The mission objectives simply don't matter and it's no fun for melee characters. Give people a token for two-three daily runs with a vehicle if they don't have one. Make the secondary missions - rescue the civilians/mayor and stop the summoning ritual - have to be done at the same time, and have consequences for failing to achieve them. The big monster needs to cause problems if he's not being aggro'd rather than just standing there like a lunk going "grr", and the Exocets could do with a buff.
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    If you have tons of level 40 alts, you can grind out a set of Justice gear in a month. I have five sets, and when I want a sixth, I will just put my toons into the rotation.

    For someone with one or two characters, it's a terrible slog.
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  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User

    Sky Command has minimal issues - buff the Mega-Destroid's AoE attacks and make it immune to... well... the thing that'll be blindingly obvious if you play it.

    LI - this is the one with the biggest issues. The mission objectives simply don't matter and it's no fun for melee characters. Give people a token for two-three daily runs with a vehicle if they don't have one.

    How is melee not being fun an issue in LI but not an issue in Sky Command?

    To me, Sky Command is easily the worst of the lot. Sure there are problems with all of them but at least they have elements of fun. Sky Command is just a boring slogfest that absolutely must take up 15 minutes even if you're done with everything. The 15 minutes would not matter btw if it was actually fun to run.

  • draogndraogn Posts: 1,269 Arc User

    If you have tons of level 40 alts, you can grind out a set of Justice gear in a month. I have five sets, and when I want a sixth, I will just put my toons into the rotation.

    For someone with one or two characters, it's a terrible slog.

    That sounds mind-numbingly boring and tedious, this also assumes rng is on your side.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,424 Arc User
    Rampages are slow at the moment because of the Nightmare event. Even so I got a couple Gravitar and an LI token. They are by no means dead.
    gradii said:

    If you have tons of level 40 alts, you can grind out a set of Justice gear in a month. I have five sets, and when I want a sixth, I will just put my toons into the rotation.

    For someone with one or two characters, it's a terrible slog.

    Takes me several months for one set even with over 35 level 40 characters. Rampages being almost completely dead contributes to this of course.
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  • chaelkchaelk Posts: 7,732 Arc User
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    Rampages are slow at the moment because of the Nightmare event. Even so I got a couple Gravitar and an LI token. They are by no means dead.


    If you have tons of level 40 alts, you can grind out a set of Justice gear in a month. I have five sets, and when I want a sixth, I will just put my toons into the rotation.

    For someone with one or two characters, it's a terrible slog.

    Takes me several months for one set even with over 35 level 40 characters. Rampages being almost completely dead contributes to this of course.

    yes Jaazaniah but you also have how many? 20+ sets of Justice gear. you're on the good side of the rng.
    This thread is about the ones who don't get it by farming, alting or anything they try. Because they are on the opposite side of the rng.​​
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  • avianosavianos Posts: 6,022 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    kaizerin wrote: »
    At some point we would like to switch Rampages over to GCR. However, Rampages are currently not at the difficulty level we would like them at to award that currency. There are also other issues with Rampages that need to be addressed like average completion time being very different from Rampage to Rampage.

    So until we are able to take a look at Rampages, their token system will not be changed. There is no ETA on this.

    Oh uh... oh... oh no... Oh Dios Mio!
    I get a feeling so Complicated right now!

    on one hand, this is the end of RNG farming for Justice
    but on the other hand, does that mean No more Pug-Friendly Gravitar, LI and SC? and we will be forced to take half hour to look/create/organize a private queue pug?
    OH NO!​​
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,424 Arc User
    I guess you need to be on at the right time of day? Over the course of this LI cycle I did it about 4 times, so not dead. Now that the Nightmare event is waning I'll be curious to see how easy it is to get F&I teams together over the weekend.
    gradii said:

    Rampages are slow at the moment because of the Nightmare event. Even so I got a couple Gravitar and an LI token. They are by no means dead.


    gradii said:

    If you have tons of level 40 alts, you can grind out a set of Justice gear in a month. I have five sets, and when I want a sixth, I will just put my toons into the rotation.

    For someone with one or two characters, it's a terrible slog.

    Takes me several months for one set even with over 35 level 40 characters. Rampages being almost completely dead contributes to this of course.
    I've been on all day and LI hasn't popped once. Dead is dead.
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  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,424 Arc User
    This always seems weird to me. It's like players believe that there is really some supernatural force preventing them from getting tokens. If the "r" in rng really is for "random" then it should just be a matter of running enough rampages for success/failure rate to even out. I don't know, maybe there is something funky in the code that rewards some players more than others, but I don't know how that could happen.
    chaelk said:



    jaazaniah1 wrote: »

    Rampages are slow at the moment because of the Nightmare event. Even so I got a couple Gravitar and an LI token. They are by no means dead.





    If you have tons of level 40 alts, you can grind out a set of Justice gear in a month. I have five sets, and when I want a sixth, I will just put my toons into the rotation.



    For someone with one or two characters, it's a terrible slog.



    Takes me several months for one set even with over 35 level 40 characters. Rampages being almost completely dead contributes to this of course.



    yes Jaazaniah but you also have how many? 20+ sets of Justice gear. you're on the good side of the rng.

    This thread is about the ones who don't get it by farming, alting or anything they try. Because they are on the opposite side of the rng.​​

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  • magpieuk2014magpieuk2014 Posts: 1,268 Arc User
    How is melee not being fun an issue in LI but not an issue in Sky Command?

    It is, and a free vehicle token wouldn't go amiss there. I suppose that something called "Sky Command" is kinda obviously vehicle orientated (and that bothers me less because I like vehicles, any way).

    Having to do 200 Rampages to gear up is still way too much. Lets say each Rampage takes 15 minutes, that is 3000 minutes to gear up to Justice gear, think about that for a while, then consider how much of an improvement over Heroic gear it is.. and is those 3000minutes worth it?.

    It is, but at the risk of sounding like Spinnytop.... I quite like Rampage content and generally find it fun to play. And fun is the thing, really. If the queues were a bit more lively I'd run them several times a day. Which would mean tokens coming (eventually) as part of normal play, rather than desperate hours spent grinding Gravitar (not like that) and always being on the wrong side of the RNG.

  • pwestolemynamepwestolemyname Posts: 978 Arc User
    Didn't read all the posts, but did anyone mention that any change is going to be worse. The Rampage system right now is great because you only have to grind it once in inferior gear. Once you J out your first toon, you can then grind the gear on that for other toons. If/when they change it to a GCR reward system, that reward is going to bind to the toon you run it with, just like Cosmics. That means, every time you want a new set of J, you will have to grind it with an inferiorly geared toon. I hope they never get around to "fixing" it and it stays like it is.
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  • pwestolemynamepwestolemyname Posts: 978 Arc User
    gradii said:

    Rampages being almost completely dead contributes to this of course.

    ^^^ This. Cosmics killed Rampages. I am considering just skipping J gear and going straight for D gear. I know they say Distinguished is better for tanks and all, but eh, it's all good either way. The differences between J and D are small.
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