Support Role

xcelsior41

I've been reading many things about support role, and they all point to one main topic of interest to me.

Support=Healing.

Sure, you've got things like IDF and PF or even AoRP, maybe even RF if you get it right(though thatll limit you to maintaining one power so, pretty niche if ya ask me). That's what? 4 powers(3 of the 4 are more commonly chosen for the DR). Healing, I understand, is a viable part of support(hence the %boost in support), but what if we could have more than just grabbing the same handful of support powers for every support, or without having to go to extremes to help the team without healing?

Traps: Traps should have many more viable CC and buff abilities. Maybe a FF Generator that has a chance for +Shield HP through pulses every 2(?) sec that's mobile(say, a duration of ~15 sec?). This can scale of INT maybe(an alternative to every support having to grab PRE as a stat to be viable at the role) Recharge: 25s
Acid Grenade: Lowers enemies(adv could turn it into an AoE for 2pts. Not too great at names though :P) by %amount, low DoT(much like TN), DMG res debuff could scale with EGO along with the DoT(but the DoT gets a smaller boost when scaling as to not become OP). Again, as an alternative to going standard PRE. Recharge: 14s Duration:12s
Microbots: +CC Res and escalating +DMG buff(2 2pt advantages: One changes the +DMG into a escalating HoT(PRE based), one changes the +CC Res into a flat +RES buff(say, 30%)). Recharge:45s Duration:25s. Recharge affected by INT.
Sensory Relay: +Per, +Dodge Chance(2pt adv. adds a +Rech to abilities) can be used as a self buff or ally buff, allies get a slightly more potent affect. Duration: 25s, Rech: 40s. Scales with INT, or PRE. Still affected slighty by DEX.
Ult: Overload: +Random Buff(Random could be:+Healing(received or done), +Recharge, +DMG, +RES, +CC Resist, +Shield strength, +Dodge Chance..pretty much any buff in the game(of course at slightly lower values :P). R2 & 3:Plus potency/-recharge. Base Recharge:1m 25s(I think that's GD's recharge as an Ult?) Duration:30s. Can be used on self or allies. Unique: After the effects wear off, you lose %effectiveness at whatever buff was applied(say you got +Dodge Chance, after the Overload wears off, all abilities buffing dodge chance will have a %reduction(no more than say, 5%?). Scales with INT or PRE
Passive: Gadgeteer: +Effectiveness of Gadgeteering abilities by %value, scaling with INT or PRE.

EU: Mechanical Heart: Grants an escalating energy boost(like overdrive) when using apply a gadgeteering ability to an ally, Scales with INT or PRE, still affected by REC or END SS.(Abit diff from standard EUs, this is to not have people worry if they go, say, INT/PRE/END(could happen :P), it has a little more flexability.)

Anyway, thats just a thought..about support role...that turned into a suggestion...for gadgeteering.

championshewolf

Eh, support is more than healing, support is CC, debuffing and buffing to. Furthermore, you have multi-tude of powers for support role, some overlooked, some just not good, and others are expected. Aura of Primal Majesty, Aura of Runic Protection are the biggest expected of support role, but ebon destruction and arcane clarity can also be big ones, just people have been programmed that unless they can see a tangible effect (ie bigger numbers) then it isn't worth their time.​​

xcelsior41

championshewolf said:

Eh, support is more than healing, support is CC, debuffing and buffing to. Furthermore, you have multi-tude of powers for support role, some overlooked, some just not good, and others are expected. Aura of Primal Majesty, Aura of Runic Protection are the biggest expected of support role, but ebon destruction and arcane clarity can also be big ones, just people have been programmed that unless they can see a tangible effect (ie bigger numbers) then it isn't worth their time.​​

True, and in regards to overlooked powers, there's really only a handful(if that?) of debuff abilities(gadgeteering has a few?) that are actually viable in their field, such as ebon sigils . Buffs. I'd like more that don't revolve around sorcery or force, but they are def. There., CC-Hah! Yeah no..not currently all that viable in most anything.(DMG+CC=Poof!, Good bye decent hold). But I agree that they are there, but why not have more? and bring sup-par to on-par?.

championshewolf

xcelsior41 wrote: »

True, and in regards to overlooked powers, there's really only a handful(if that?) of debuff abilities(gadgeteering has a few?) that are actually viable in their field, such as ebon sigils . Buffs. I'd like more that don't revolve around sorcery or force, but they are def. There., CC-Hah! Yeah no..not currently all that viable in most anything.(DMG+CC=Poof!, Good bye decent hold). But I agree that they are there, but why not have more? and bring sup-par to on-par?.

Arcane Calrity is actualyl really powerful, but again, people don't see it tangibly because none of their numbers phyiscally change, they'd have to have a meter to notice the difference and actually do thing like charge powers. Arcane clarity would turn otherwise burst effect for most powers (some powers are better to charge than others) into DPS effects, IE charge them all the time, but again, people don't see it as a tangible result.

Ebon Destruction is very powerful when utilized correctly, and is very devastating on pet builds to boot.

And the major problem with debuffing and such is how to balance it correctly. And frankly, the pet hate makes using pet based stuff a tad of an annoyance. The one sigils I find useless are the ones that hide people and wish others would stop using them, especially around the tank. Damage reduction ones can be golden, of course, would probably help to make certain fights in TA more manageable, but of course again pets tend to get rekt in TA and it becomes an annoyance thing.​​

soulforger

xcelsior41 said:

True, and in regards to overlooked powers, there's really only a handful(if that?) of debuff abilities(gadgeteering has a few?) that are actually viable in their field, such as ebon sigils . Buffs. I'd like more that don't revolve around sorcery or force, but they are def. There., CC-Hah! Yeah no..not currently all that viable in most anything.(DMG+CC=Poof!, Good bye decent hold). But I agree that they are there, but why not have more? and bring sup-par to on-par?.

There is more to CC than just holds you know. Otherwise Manipulator would be basically impossible to stack in boss fights, but I can easily maintain 8 stacks of manipulator in boss fights.

xcelsior41

championshewolf said:

xcelsior41 wrote: »

True, and in regards to overlooked powers, there's really only a handful(if that?) of debuff abilities(gadgeteering has a few?) that are actually viable in their field, such as ebon sigils . Buffs. I'd like more that don't revolve around sorcery or force, but they are def. There., CC-Hah! Yeah no..not currently all that viable in most anything.(DMG+CC=Poof!, Good bye decent hold). But I agree that they are there, but why not have more? and bring sup-par to on-par?.

Arcane Calrity is actualyl really powerful, but again, people don't see it tangibly because none of their numbers phyiscally change, they'd have to have a meter to notice the difference and actually do thing like charge powers. Arcane clarity would turn otherwise burst effect for most powers (some powers are better to charge than others) into DPS effects, IE charge them all the time, but again, people don't see it as a tangible result.



Ebon Destruction is very powerful when utilized correctly, and is very devastating on pet builds to boot.



And the major problem with debuffing and such is how to balance it correctly. And frankly, the pet hate makes using pet based stuff a tad of an annoyance. The one sigils I find useless are the ones that hide people and wish others would stop using them, especially around the tank. Damage reduction ones can be golden, of course, would probably help to make certain fights in TA more manageable, but of course again pets tend to get rekt in TA and it becomes an annoyance thing.​​

Oh yeah, I see AoAC as amazing personally and have a CC build with it. But CC, alas, she is terribadomgwhy . ED? Have one of those too. Practically every Aura I have, some twice, some once. I've used just about every buff and support ability in CO(save this new neuro thingy, but working on it). And can say, a lot are great as is, more are not. And that more, is based on the offensivy-support, such as stated in my opening sentence. Passives and forms are all great, even the heals and some buffs. But there's more to be done to make support like you said in the your first post. Currently, it's about..50% there.

championshewolf

CC is fine in the game, CC doesn't need to be hard to make it work. CoV CC was ridiculous with perma control on everything, even purple triangles with the right build. Hell, even in PvP you could have a tray full of break frees, but you were never breaking out of my dominators holds.​​

xcelsior41

championshewolf said:

CC is fine in the game, CC doesn't need to be hard to make it work. CoV CC was ridiculous with perma control on everything, even purple triangles with the right build. Hell, even in PvP you could have a tray full of break frees, but you were never breaking out of my dominators holds.​​

CoV did not have perma controls, not in PvE, and post i13, definitely not in PvP. Trust me, I know. I had 5 50 Controllers and 3 50 Dominators.. I know CoH's CC system, and it's nowhere where you like to say it is. CC in CO took that, and turned it all the way down, and made CC a what? 2-sec stop? That's all of nothing on a steamrolling DPS team(juuuust like in CoH. Get a team of blasters and scrappers and then come back with that Perma-Dom :P. Won't last long there :P.)

championshewolf

xcelsior41 wrote: »

CoV did not have perma controls, not in PvE, and post i13, definitely not in PvP. Trust me, I know. I had 5 50 Controllers and 3 50 Dominators.. I know CoH's CC system, and it's nowhere where you like to say it is. CC in CO took that, and turned it all the way down, and made CC a what? 2-sec stop? That's all of nothing on a steamrolling DPS team(juuuust like in CoH. Get a team of blasters and scrappers and then come back with that Perma-Dom :P. Won't last long there :P.)

Hehe you never played with perma doms then if you think PvE never could perma hold. It's how CoV was forced to use for most teams to even beat the Master Recluse Run because 8 level 53 heros were a tad too difficult for most team make ups to handle if you wanted a perfect run. I know they destroyed dominators later, but PvE was still perma hold if you knew what you were doing. And again 40 seconds of hold power, is still too long. Yes, they were that powerful, no you didn't play CoH all that much if you think that PvE holding wasn't that powerful.​​

xcelsior41

championshewolf said:

xcelsior41 wrote: »

CoV did not have perma controls, not in PvE, and post i13, definitely not in PvP. Trust me, I know. I had 5 50 Controllers and 3 50 Dominators.. I know CoH's CC system, and it's nowhere where you like to say it is. CC in CO took that, and turned it all the way down, and made CC a what? 2-sec stop? That's all of nothing on a steamrolling DPS team(juuuust like in CoH. Get a team of blasters and scrappers and then come back with that Perma-Dom :P. Won't last long there :P.)

Hehe you never played with perma doms then if you think PvE never could perma hold. It's how CoV was forced to use for most teams to even beat the Master Recluse Run because 8 level 53 heros were a tad too difficult for most team make ups to handle if you wanted a perfect run. I know they destroyed dominators later, but PvE was still perma hold if you knew what you were doing. And again 40 seconds of hold power, is still too long. Yes, they were that powerful, no you didn't play CoH all that much if you think that PvE holding wasn't that powerful.​​

I've played with perma dom. I had 2 of my doms at it multiple times :P MLRSF, I've been on one before and it was I believe, me(DS MM, another MM, a brute, 2 Corrs, I think a scrapper? A def, and..a stalker?). Not a prob, and no deaths at 8 53 AVs and we bum rushed em all. This wasn't a pre-built leet team either. Perma hold in PvE?, Y'know, actually after I think about it, ya may be on to something. At least when it comes to minions and lts. and bosses, but no, not AVs. Seriously never, at all, ever. Not even a troller can do that. Oh, and I had 21 Level 50s. I actually heard you ditched right before GR when CO launched so(i6 vet here)... It seems your trying to impose knowledge on a game you didn't even like because of PvP, I'd suggest you do that for CO, since that's your game to know about.

raighn

championshewolf said:

The one sigils I find useless are the ones that hide people and wish others would stop using them, especially around the tank.

I really wish people would stop thinking that Radiant Sigils are an aggro wipe... they are not. You can drop them around the tank all day long and they will still hold aggro. Agression Stealth is NOT an aggro wipe, it's an aggro reduction/suppresion. Your aggro is suppressed until you hit an enemy. DPS and Healers see the effect of the aggro reduction more than tanks as well. I have tested this repeatedly, Radiant Sigils are anywhere from useless, and they do not impeed the tank. In fact they can actually help the tank by reducing the aggro generated by everyone else to a greater degree.

championshewolf said:

CC is fine in the game, CC doesn't need to be hard to make it work.

CC is far from fine in CO... holds are a joke, unless your soloing you cant ever get a hold to last for more than 2 seconds... Stuns are the only functional holds in CO due to the sorry state of hold HP. Knocks may be considered CC effects by some, but most of them function more as DPS due to falling damage. On top of that the CC effect of knocks, and holds for that matter are impeeded by how fast knock/hold resist stacks build up in combat. A large number of commonly used DPS powers include a knock or hold component rendering CC as a non-viable form of support. You can't CC a target that is immune to all forms of CC... Everything that even can be CCd to begin with isnt even worth CCing in 90% of the content, and the stuff thats worth CCing is flat out immune to CC effects. So yea, CC is far from fine in CO, it's a train wreck...

Also, debuffing is NOT CC. You can believe it is if you want, but dont try to convince me it is. Crowd Control is as it's name implies, controling the crowd. You lock enemies in place, move them where you want them, group them up, spread them out. That is what crowd control is, it's not reducing the damage enimies do or increasing the damage they take. Anything other than controling the movement of enemies is a side-effect of CC, not the direct effect or intent of CC.

Debuffing is however support, but a form that is dwindling in function. There are very few damage resistance debuffs that arn't damage type specific now, and with the direction Cryptic seems to be going the few that remain will be changed before long. Damage debuffs are few and far between as well.


There is no doubt that suppport needs more viable options in CO. A it stands the most viable option is healing. We don't have very effecive proactive forms of support... the most effective proactive support we have is Shielding which has so few options available to it that all shield builds are virtually identical.

spinnytop

xcelsior41 said:

Traps: Traps should have many more viable CC and buff abilities. Maybe a FF Generator that has a chance for +Shield HP through pulses every 2(?) sec that's mobile(say, a duration of ~15 sec?). This can scale of INT maybe(an alternative to every support having to grab PRE as a stat to be viable at the role) Recharge: 25s
Acid Grenade: Lowers enemies(adv could turn it into an AoE for 2pts. Not too great at names though :P) by %amount, low DoT(much like TN), DMG res debuff could scale with EGO along with the DoT(but the DoT gets a smaller boost when scaling as to not become OP). Again, as an alternative to going standard PRE. Recharge: 14s Duration:12s
Microbots: +CC Res and escalating +DMG buff(2 2pt advantages: One changes the +DMG into a escalating HoT(PRE based), one changes the +CC Res into a flat +RES buff(say, 30%)). Recharge:45s Duration:25s. Recharge affected by INT.
Sensory Relay: +Per, +Dodge Chance(2pt adv. adds a +Rech to abilities) can be used as a self buff or ally buff, allies get a slightly more potent affect. Duration: 25s, Rech: 40s. Scales with INT, or PRE. Still affected slighty by DEX.
Ult: Overload: +Random Buff(Random could be:+Healing(received or done), +Recharge, +DMG, +RES, +CC Resist, +Shield strength, +Dodge Chance..pretty much any buff in the game(of course at slightly lower values :P). R2 & 3:Plus potency/-recharge. Base Recharge:1m 25s(I think that's GD's recharge as an Ult?) Duration:30s. Can be used on self or allies. Unique: After the effects wear off, you lose %effectiveness at whatever buff was applied(say you got +Dodge Chance, after the Overload wears off, all abilities buffing dodge chance will have a %reduction(no more than say, 5%?). Scales with INT or PRE
Passive: Gadgeteer: +Effectiveness of Gadgeteering abilities by %value, scaling with INT or PRE.

EU: Mechanical Heart: Grants an escalating energy boost(like overdrive) when using apply a gadgeteering ability to an ally, Scales with INT or PRE, still affected by REC or END SS.(Abit diff from standard EUs, this is to not have people worry if they go, say, INT/PRE/END(could happen :P), it has a little more flexability.)

Hey just a suggestion, try organizing this block of text a bit better... it's very unappealing to read n_n


As far as debuffing goes, I've actually pretty easily slipped some debuffing ability into my healer. I lower the damage enemies do, and increase the damage they take from all attacks, and the amount is not insignificant. If someone actually deliberately created a straight up debuffer character, they would be adjusting the numbers in and out in a fight pretty significantly.

xcelsior41

spinnytop said:

xcelsior41 said:

Traps: Traps should have many more viable CC and buff abilities. Maybe a FF Generator that has a chance for +Shield HP through pulses every 2(?) sec that's mobile(say, a duration of ~15 sec?). This can scale of INT maybe(an alternative to every support having to grab PRE as a stat to be viable at the role) Recharge: 25s
Acid Grenade: Lowers enemies(adv could turn it into an AoE for 2pts. Not too great at names though :P) by %amount, low DoT(much like TN), DMG res debuff could scale with EGO along with the DoT(but the DoT gets a smaller boost when scaling as to not become OP). Again, as an alternative to going standard PRE. Recharge: 14s Duration:12s
Microbots: +CC Res and escalating +DMG buff(2 2pt advantages: One changes the +DMG into a escalating HoT(PRE based), one changes the +CC Res into a flat +RES buff(say, 30%)). Recharge:45s Duration:25s. Recharge affected by INT.
Sensory Relay: +Per, +Dodge Chance(2pt adv. adds a +Rech to abilities) can be used as a self buff or ally buff, allies get a slightly more potent affect. Duration: 25s, Rech: 40s. Scales with INT, or PRE. Still affected slighty by DEX.
Ult: Overload: +Random Buff(Random could be:+Healing(received or done), +Recharge, +DMG, +RES, +CC Resist, +Shield strength, +Dodge Chance..pretty much any buff in the game(of course at slightly lower values :P). R2 & 3:Plus potency/-recharge. Base Recharge:1m 25s(I think that's GD's recharge as an Ult?) Duration:30s. Can be used on self or allies. Unique: After the effects wear off, you lose %effectiveness at whatever buff was applied(say you got +Dodge Chance, after the Overload wears off, all abilities buffing dodge chance will have a %reduction(no more than say, 5%?). Scales with INT or PRE
Passive: Gadgeteer: +Effectiveness of Gadgeteering abilities by %value, scaling with INT or PRE.

EU: Mechanical Heart: Grants an escalating energy boost(like overdrive) when using apply a gadgeteering ability to an ally, Scales with INT or PRE, still affected by REC or END SS.(Abit diff from standard EUs, this is to not have people worry if they go, say, INT/PRE/END(could happen :P), it has a little more flexability.)

Hey just a suggestion, try organizing this block of text a bit better... it's very unappealing to read n_n


As far as debuffing goes, I've actually pretty easily slipped some debuffing ability into my healer. I lower the damage enemies do, and increase the damage they take from all attacks, and the amount is not insignificant. If someone actually deliberately created a straight up debuffer character, they would be adjusting the numbers in and out in a fight pretty significantly.

Yeah, Imma do the list at the top next time instead, it was a last minute put-together, thanks for your imput! And steering the topic back on well..topic . Also, the traps suggestion carries one debuff but the rest, it seems, are buffs(Hm. Was looking to do a balance of both but hey!).

xcelsior41

raighn said:

championshewolf said:

The one sigils I find useless are the ones that hide people and wish others would stop using them, especially around the tank.

I really wish people would stop thinking that Radiant Sigils are an aggro wipe... they are not. You can drop them around the tank all day long and they will still hold aggro. Agression Stealth is NOT an aggro wipe, it's an aggro reduction/suppresion. Your aggro is suppressed until you hit an enemy. DPS and Healers see the effect of the aggro reduction more than tanks as well. I have tested this repeatedly, Radiant Sigils are anywhere from useless, and they do not impeed the tank. In fact they can actually help the tank by reducing the aggro generated by everyone else to a greater degree.

championshewolf said:

CC is fine in the game, CC doesn't need to be hard to make it work.

CC is far from fine in CO... holds are a joke, unless your soloing you cant ever get a hold to last for more than 2 seconds... Stuns are the only functional holds in CO due to the sorry state of hold HP. Knocks may be considered CC effects by some, but most of them function more as DPS due to falling damage. On top of that the CC effect of knocks, and holds for that matter are impeeded by how fast knock/hold resist stacks build up in combat. A large number of commonly used DPS powers include a knock or hold component rendering CC as a non-viable form of support. You can't CC a target that is immune to all forms of CC... Everything that even can be CCd to begin with isnt even worth CCing in 90% of the content, and the stuff thats worth CCing is flat out immune to CC effects. So yea, CC is far from fine in CO, it's a train wreck...

Also, debuffing is NOT CC. You can believe it is if you want, but dont try to convince me it is. Crowd Control is as it's name implies, controling the crowd. You lock enemies in place, move them where you want them, group them up, spread them out. That is what crowd control is, it's not reducing the damage enimies do or increasing the damage they take. Anything other than controling the movement of enemies is a side-effect of CC, not the direct effect or intent of CC.

Debuffing is however support, but a form that is dwindling in function. There are very few damage resistance debuffs that arn't damage type specific now, and with the direction Cryptic seems to be going the few that remain will be changed before long. Damage debuffs are few and far between as well.


There is no doubt that suppport needs more viable options in CO. A it stands the most viable option is healing. We don't have very effecive proactive forms of support... the most effective proactive support we have is Shielding which has so few options available to it that all shield builds are virtually identical.

They dont use CC I'm betting. I don't get why they are so against it being good..in PvE. I mean, you should be happy, less people beating your face. But of course, Im sure they are of the PvP mindset(like most on the matter of CC) and are worried it'll be OP in PvP.

pantagruel01

The fundamental problem with CC in CO is that it's mostly not needed. If you can beat a mob of enemies without CCing them, why would you bother to spend the extra time to CC them? In most of the exceptions, a couple of seconds of CC is plenty.

theravenforce

pantagruel01 said:

The fundamental problem with CC in CO is that it's mostly not needed.

That. As I have said many times, is ONE side of the coin when it comes to the reason why CC sucks in CO.

The other side is that there are many who rally against it (the mechanic) because of misguided PvP fears. I use the word "misguided" with the intention that if CC was tackled in the manner which I have suggested billions of times...the aspect of PvP fears would not / hardly be an issue.

There is also the problem that it has not actually been properly updated and brought up to standard with the rest of the game. Manipulator was the first step, but to get to where it needs to be, many more steps need to be taken.

Steps which it seems, some players do not want it to take.

The easiest thing to do is to deal with stuns in Champions Online, rectify their behavior (as I've pointed out loads of times) and more players will see how lacking CC is.

pantagruel01

theravenforce said:

The other side is that there are many who rally against it (the mechanic) because of misguided PvP fears. I use the word "misguided" with the intention that if CC was tackled in the manner which I have suggested billions of times...the aspect of PvP fears would not / hardly be an issue.

It's not misguided. Every suggestion you've made would be broken in PvP, for the same reason that every CC buff in the past has been broken in PvP: CC vs players is way more valuable than it is vs any PvE target short of a Legendary.

theravenforce

pantagruel01 said:

theravenforce said:

The other side is that there are many who rally against it (the mechanic) because of misguided PvP fears. I use the word "misguided" with the intention that if CC was tackled in the manner which I have suggested billions of times...the aspect of PvP fears would not / hardly be an issue.

It's not misguided. Every suggestion you've made would be broken in PvP, for the same reason that every CC buff in the past has been broken in PvP: CC vs players is way more valuable than it is vs any PvE target short of a Legendary.

That's false.

I specifically stated that adjusting it for PvP would be tackled AFTER it works as it should in PvE.

The main bulk of the game is PvE. As a result things should be balanced towards PvE in the main.

As I've said before, balancing things around PvP is probably the most stupid thing you could do in a game like CO.

Making CC innately more valuable, so it is a rewarding and strong mechanic (like everything else) is not broken.
Enhancing enemies to make CC more valid is not broken.

If you honestly think my suggestions would be "broken in PvP" you didn't read them properly, that is a common issue that players have to overcome when trying to understand CC suggestions.

soulforger

pantagruel01 said:

It's not misguided. Every suggestion you've made would be broken in PvP, for the same reason that every CC buff in the past has been broken in PvP: CC vs players is way more valuable than it is vs any PvE target short of a Legendary.

That's being misguided. To fix CC in a way without breaking PvP, you just have to have players be heavily resistant to CC. Thus times are greatly reduced from holds, stuns, etc. But mostly the best way to fix this issue would be to fix mobs to be actually dangerous. And to reward damage less, it truly is time to bring damage in line and to stop the numbers from getting out of control.

pantagruel01

theravenforce said:

That's false.

I specifically stated that adjusting it for PvP would be tackled AFTER it works as it should in PvE.

That's a nonstarter. You have to do them simultaneously.

soulforger said:

That's being misguided. To fix CC in a way without breaking PvP, you just have to have players be heavily resistant to CC.

I agree. Ravenforce objected to me proposing exactly that.

spinnytop

Guys come on... you've had this CC debate for so long... does it really have to continue here? Please, just go back to the CC Discussion thread in PTS... you know, the place where you've already stated the things you're stating here many many many many times in rapid circular succession? pretty please?


any ways xcel, I organized your text a bit more to make it easier to read.

xcelsior41 said:

Traps: Traps should have many more viable CC and buff abilities.

Maybe a FF Generator that has a chance for +Shield HP through pulses every 2(?) sec that's mobile(say, a duration of ~15 sec?). - This can scale off INT maybe(an alternative to every support having to grab PRE as a stat to be viable at the role)
- Recharge: 25s

Acid Grenade:
- Lowers enemies(?) by %amount
- adv could turn it into an AoE for 2pts. Not too great at names though :P
- low DoT(much like TN)
- DMG res debuff could scale with EGO along with the DoT(but the DoT gets a smaller boost when scaling as to not become OP). Again, as an alternative to going standard PRE. Recharge: 14s Duration:12s

Microbots:
- +CC Res and escalating +DMG buff
- 2pt advantage: changes the +DMG into a escalating HoT(PRE based)
- 2pt advantage: changes the +CC Res into a flat +RES buff(say, 30%)).
- Recharge:45s Duration:25s. Recharge affected by INT.

Sensory Relay:
- +Per
- +Dodge Chance
- 2pt adv. adds a +Rech to abilities
- can be used as a self buff or ally buff, allies get a slightly more potent affect.
- Duration: 25s,
- Rech: 40s.
- Scales with INT, or PRE. Still affected slighty by DEX.

Ult: Overload:
- +Random Buff(Random could be:+Healing(received or done), +Recharge, +DMG, +RES, +CC Resist, +Shield strength, +Dodge Chance..pretty much any buff in the game(of course at slightly lower values :P)
- R2 & 3:Plus potency/-recharge.
- Base Recharge:1m 25s(I think that's GD's recharge as an Ult?)
- Duration:30s.
- Can be used on self or allies.
- Unique: After the effects wear off, you lose %effectiveness at whatever buff was applied(say you got +Dodge Chance, after the Overload wears off, all abilities buffing dodge chance will have a %reduction(no more than say, 5%?).
- Scales with INT or PRE

Passive: Gadgeteer:
- +Effectiveness of Gadgeteering abilities by %value, scaling with INT or PRE.

EU: Mechanical Heart:
- Grants an escalating energy boost(like overdrive) when using apply a gadgeteering ability to an ally
- Scales with INT or PRE, still affected by REC or END SS.(Abit diff from standard EUs, this is to not have people worry if they go, say, INT/PRE/END(could happen :P), it has a little more flexability.)

theravenforce

pantagruel01 said:

soulforger said:

That's being misguided. To fix CC in a way without breaking PvP, you just have to have players be heavily resistant to CC.

I agree. Ravenforce objected to me proposing exactly that.

No.

I object to players gaining insane resistance to CC on top of having multiple counters to CC already. The fact is that players just can't be bothered to use them so THINK that there isn't enough resistance to CC for players, which is complete BS.

Anyway, Spinny is right. If you wanna talk CC, go and put it in my thread (linked in my sig) and we'll talk there. I shouldn't have brought it over here.

Apologies to the OP.

pantagruel01

On the original topic: I agree that we have a shortage of active team buffs. The list that I can think of (colored by quality, red is worst):

• Protection Field: +Shielding. Basically a Healer power.
  
• Redirected Force: +Damage Resistance. I don't believe I've ever seen anyone use this.
  
• Neuroelectric Pulse: most commonly used as a self-buff if your build is ridiculously energy hungry.
  
• Bionic Shielding: Healing. Basically a Healer power.
  
• Mindful Reinforcement: +Shielding. Basically a Healer power. Usually very slightly outclassed by Protection Field.
  
• Hyper Voice w/adv: not really enough information to evaluate at this point, but its cooldown is too long to be a staple power in a build.
  
• Illuminate: almost totally useless on its own, it's basically a setup power for other abilities in the set.
  
• Palliate(Absolve): normally used as a personal threat wipe, occasionally used as a threat wipe for others, but it also buffs presence and stealth. I don't normally see it used for either.
  
• Sigils of Radiant Sanctuary: provides damage resistance, stealth, and heal over time. Suffers from blinding graphics and being obliterated by PBAoEs.
  
• Howl: the buff aspect is nearly useless, anyone who would get much out of an enrage stack probably already has them, but it's a decent area debuff.
  

A good start might be fixing the sub-par powers. I would suggest something like:

• Redirected Force: change from a damage resistance effect to a shielding effect. Change to buff the shielded character, instead of the shield owner.
  
• Illuminate: make it do... something relevant on its own. Or delete the power and make illumination a side effect of another power, such as Rebuke.
  
• Howl: change enrage to something more likely to be broadly useful. Perhaps Frenzy.
  

Gadgeteering is a fairly natural place for buffs, but the set is kind of bloated already, so might be nice to find ideas in other sets. For example
Ice Rink: creates a large zone; within this area, allies have +running, opponents are snared and have a chance to be knocked prone.

pantagruel01

theravenforce said:

pantagruel01 said:

soulforger said:

That's being misguided. To fix CC in a way without breaking PvP, you just have to have players be heavily resistant to CC.

I agree. Ravenforce objected to me proposing exactly that.

No.

I object to players gaining insane resistance to CC on top of having multiple counters to CC already.

In other words, exactly what I said. In order to improve CC in PvE without improving it in PvP, you have to either give players large amounts of innate resistance, or you have to give NPCs large amounts of -resistance.

raighn

pantagruel01 said:

Redirected Force: +Damage Resistance. I don't believe I've ever seen anyone use this.

SNIP

A good start might be fixing the sub-par powers. I would suggest something like:

• Redirected Force: change from a damage resistance effect to a shielding effect. Change to buff the shielded character, instead of the shield owner.
  

Excuse me.... Redirected force is anything but useless, it's actually an increadibly strong damage reduction buff for allies.... yes it's +Damage REDUCTION not resistance... that 20% at R3 is an actual reduction of 20%, it's not cryptic math resistance. Turning it into a shield would completely kill the power...

theravenforce

pantagruel01 said:

theravenforce said:

pantagruel01 said:

soulforger said:

That's being misguided. To fix CC in a way without breaking PvP, you just have to have players be heavily resistant to CC.

I agree. Ravenforce objected to me proposing exactly that.

No.

I object to players gaining insane resistance to CC on top of having multiple counters to CC already.

In other words, exactly what I said. In order to improve CC in PvE without improving it in PvP, you have to either give players large amounts of innate resistance, or you have to give NPCs large amounts of -resistance.

In other words...please discuss this on the appropriate thread.

If you want to go through all that again.

spinnytop

raighn said:

pantagruel01 said:

Redirected Force: +Damage Resistance. I don't believe I've ever seen anyone use this.

SNIP

A good start might be fixing the sub-par powers. I would suggest something like:

• Redirected Force: change from a damage resistance effect to a shielding effect. Change to buff the shielded character, instead of the shield owner.
  

Excuse me.... Redirected force is anything but useless, it's actually an increadibly strong damage reduction buff for allies.... yes it's +Damage REDUCTION not resistance... that 20% at R3 is an actual reduction of 20%, it's not cryptic math resistance. Turning it into a shield would completely kill the power...

Having actually tested it in-game I can assure you that RF in its current state does not actually give you 20% damage reduction. It gives much, much, much less than that. It is clearly bugged in some way. We were talking about this in game one day so I decided to get actual numbers. The results were disappointing to say the least.

raighn

spinnytop said:

raighn said:

pantagruel01 said:

Redirected Force: +Damage Resistance. I don't believe I've ever seen anyone use this.

SNIP

A good start might be fixing the sub-par powers. I would suggest something like:

• Redirected Force: change from a damage resistance effect to a shielding effect. Change to buff the shielded character, instead of the shield owner.
  

Excuse me.... Redirected force is anything but useless, it's actually an increadibly strong damage reduction buff for allies.... yes it's +Damage REDUCTION not resistance... that 20% at R3 is an actual reduction of 20%, it's not cryptic math resistance. Turning it into a shield would completely kill the power...

Having actually tested it in-game I can assure you that RF in its current state does not actually give you 20% damage reduction. It gives much, much, much less than that. It is clearly bugged in some way. We were talking about this in game one day so I decided to get actual numbers. The results were disappointing to say the least.

I'm having a hard time believing that... I'll get on my laptop and test when I get home from work.

raighn

OK... got home got on CORTEX and did some blue laser testing...

This is the results I found:

6% resistance no RF = 1415 (1500) {1500 / 1.06 = 1415}
6% resistance w/ RF = 1179 (1500) {1500 / 1.06 = 1415 / 1.2 = 1179} 16.6% actual reduction from RF
24% resistance no RF = 1212 (1500) {1500 / 1209... WTF? missing 0.3% resistance???...}
24% resistance w/ RF = 1010 (1500) {1500 / 1.237 = 1212 / 1.2 = 1010} 16.6% actual reduction from RF
36% resistance no RF = 1082 (1500) {1500 / 1.36 = 1102... WTF? extra 2.6% resistace from somewhere...}
36% resistance w/ RF = 902 (1500) {1500 / 1.386 = 1082 / 1.2 = 902} 16.6% actual reduction from RF
79% resistance no RF = 815 (1500) {1500 / 1.79 = 837... WTF again? extra 5% resistance from somewhere...}
79% resistance w/ RF = 679 (1500) {1500 / 1.84 = 815 / 1.2 = 679} 16.6% actual reduction from RF

the 6% base is from Sentry Aura...
24% resistance is from Nem gear (310/179/175 INT/Pre/End, 75.6 Def (18% Res), 6% SA)
36% is from AoRP no gear (106/69/65 INT/Pre/End, 0 Def, 30% AoRP, 6% SA)
79% is AoRP w/ Nem gear (310/179/175 INT/Pre/End, 75.6 Def (18% res), 55% AoRP, 6% SA)
Support role for all of it

Running the numbers I found it apparently isn't actually 20% reduction it's 16.6~% Reduction... because it's applying via cryptic math as if it were resistance... but it's not on the same layer as resistance... it is applied separately... calculating it as an added 20% resistance results in depressingly less reduction the higher you level is as would be expected with resistance, but the final result is still less than the 20% reduction it's supposed to be giving... it is however consistently 16.6% actual reduction.

I wouldn't say that the missing 3.3~% resistance is really "disappointing"... sure it's not the 20% actual reduction as advertised, but it's also not just another 20% resistance added to your existing resistance, it's applied on a separate layer so the entire 16.6% applies 100% of the time.

pantagruel01

Hm. That may be block-layer. Testing with Ebon Void and no defense, 3 stacks (30%) plus redirected force 3 (20%) reduced 1,500 damage to 1,000, which is a total of +50% damage resistance.

raighn

pantagruel01 said:

Hm. That may be block-layer. Testing with Ebon Void and no defense, 3 stacks (30%) plus redirected force 3 (20%) reduced 1,500 damage to 1,000, which is a total of +50% damage resistance.

well that's one mystery solved... now if only I could figure out where those unaccounted for -0.3%/+2.6%/+5% resistances came from in my tests...


er wait... what was your result with just ebon void? I'd presume it'd be 1154 (1500)... but if it's not... then there might still be an entirely different layer all it's own...

xcelsior41

spinnytop said:

raighn said:

pantagruel01 said:

Redirected Force: +Damage Resistance. I don't believe I've ever seen anyone use this.

SNIP

A good start might be fixing the sub-par powers. I would suggest something like:

• Redirected Force: change from a damage resistance effect to a shielding effect. Change to buff the shielded character, instead of the shield owner.
  

Excuse me.... Redirected force is anything but useless, it's actually an increadibly strong damage reduction buff for allies.... yes it's +Damage REDUCTION not resistance... that 20% at R3 is an actual reduction of 20%, it's not cryptic math resistance. Turning it into a shield would completely kill the power...

Having actually tested it in-game I can assure you that RF in its current state does not actually give you 20% damage reduction. It gives much, much, much less than that. It is clearly bugged in some way. We were talking about this in game one day so I decided to get actual numbers. The results were disappointing to say the least.

Yeah imma take your word on this one as i've used it and felt..lacking when using it.

xcelsior41

spinnytop said:

Guys come on... you've had this CC debate for so long... does it really have to continue here? Please, just go back to the CC Discussion thread in PTS... you know, the place where you've already stated the things you're stating here many many many many times in rapid circular succession? pretty please?


any ways xcel, I organized your text a bit more to make it easier to read.

xcelsior41 said:

Traps: Traps should have many more viable CC and buff abilities.

Maybe a FF Generator that has a chance for +Shield HP through pulses every 2(?) sec that's mobile(say, a duration of ~15 sec?). - This can scale off INT maybe(an alternative to every support having to grab PRE as a stat to be viable at the role)
- Recharge: 25s

Acid Grenade:
- Lowers enemies(?) by %amount
- adv could turn it into an AoE for 2pts. Not too great at names though :P
- low DoT(much like TN)
- DMG res debuff could scale with EGO along with the DoT(but the DoT gets a smaller boost when scaling as to not become OP). Again, as an alternative to going standard PRE. Recharge: 14s Duration:12s

Microbots:
- +CC Res and escalating +DMG buff
- 2pt advantage: changes the +DMG into a escalating HoT(PRE based)
- 2pt advantage: changes the +CC Res into a flat +RES buff(say, 30%)).
- Recharge:45s Duration:25s. Recharge affected by INT.

Sensory Relay:
- +Per
- +Dodge Chance
- 2pt adv. adds a +Rech to abilities
- can be used as a self buff or ally buff, allies get a slightly more potent affect.
- Duration: 25s,
- Rech: 40s.
- Scales with INT, or PRE. Still affected slighty by DEX.

Ult: Overload:
- +Random Buff(Random could be:+Healing(received or done), +Recharge, +DMG, +RES, +CC Resist, +Shield strength, +Dodge Chance..pretty much any buff in the game(of course at slightly lower values :P)
- R2 & 3:Plus potency/-recharge.
- Base Recharge:1m 25s(I think that's GD's recharge as an Ult?)
- Duration:30s.
- Can be used on self or allies.
- Unique: After the effects wear off, you lose %effectiveness at whatever buff was applied(say you got +Dodge Chance, after the Overload wears off, all abilities buffing dodge chance will have a %reduction(no more than say, 5%?).
- Scales with INT or PRE

Passive: Gadgeteer:
- +Effectiveness of Gadgeteering abilities by %value, scaling with INT or PRE.

EU: Mechanical Heart:
- Grants an escalating energy boost(like overdrive) when using apply a gadgeteering ability to an ally
- Scales with INT or PRE, still affected by REC or END SS.(Abit diff from standard EUs, this is to not have people worry if they go, say, INT/PRE/END(could happen :P), it has a little more flexability.)

And ty

xcelsior41

theravenforce said:

pantagruel01 said:

soulforger said:

That's being misguided. To fix CC in a way without breaking PvP, you just have to have players be heavily resistant to CC.

I agree. Ravenforce objected to me proposing exactly that.

No.

I object to players gaining insane resistance to CC on top of having multiple counters to CC already. The fact is that players just can't be bothered to use them so THINK that there isn't enough resistance to CC for players, which is complete BS.

Anyway, Spinny is right. If you wanna talk CC, go and put it in my thread (linked in my sig) and we'll talk there. I shouldn't have brought it over here.

Apologies to the OP.

Its fine , I was in your side of the ring anyway .

spinnytop

raighn said:

OK... got home got on CORTEX and did some blue laser testing...

Neat, the last time I was testing it I got a result in the single digits. I still won't trust it until it's giving the full amount tho.