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[Suggestion] Adjusting The Force Power Set

theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,812 Arc User
edited March 2018 in Suggestions Box
This is basically a list of suggestions and adjustments that I would make / advocate to be made to the powerset. Naturally this is up for discussion.

With the changes that we are seeing to Blast powers, in terms of them gaining some utility, I've been thinking about the Force Powerset and how outside of knocking things every which way and the failed interaction with effects classed as "Containment Fields" (CF, PFF, PF, FS, MR, HPM, ER & Bastion).

Force could do with a new or alternate mechanic to make it interesting once more. criswolf's thread made me think back to a couple ideas I've had bouncing around my head surrounding the Force set. In addition to criswolf's thread, what really prompted me to post was Spordelia's, quite recent and amazing illustrations for Force Travel Powers (and others) which I have been dying to see in game for ages.

I was actually thinking that with the way "Blast" powers are seeing an increase in utility that something like this could work/ be implemented.

Note: Debuff names and cooldowns are mostly provisional.
Note #2: Please READ each suggestion as some have certain exceptions or special conditions to increase in set attractiveness.


THE FORCE POWER SET - REVISIONS



Force Blast

- Innately reduces resistance to Ranged Crushing Damage by 18%. This debuff is called Eaves. (Your Force based attacks have exposed your target to crushing eaves of Force, weakening them for further Ranged Crushing attacks.)
- Damage variance of this power has been reduced.
- This power no longer innately knocks enemies back, but instead applies a strong repel them.

Advantage: Force Manipulation:
- Force Blast now also applies Disruptive Force.
- "Disruptive Force" debuff reduces enemy movement by reducing their ability to move by 30% per stack and causes enemies with close proximity to gravitate towards each other. This stacks to three & has a global cap of 6. Notes: The gravitation part of "Disruptive Force" does not apply to the following enemies, however the movement reduction will:

*Other Champions (Players) & above (so Super Villains, Legendary & Cosmic Rank foes).


- Force Blast's advantage "Field Inversion" has been adjusted to "Overwhelming Force". "Overwhelming Force" allows access to the original version of Force Blast which knocks back enemies, but prevents Force Blast from applying "Disruptive Force". (Ideally this would be a zero point advantage and players would just rank up as normal. But this would require a creation of a identical but secondary power which functions differently, so it may have to be a three or Four Point advantage, which grants rank 2 (3pts) or rank 3 (4pts) of the original Force Blast)



Force Detonation

- Innately inverts any Containment Field effect surrounding a target (this excludes the Player version of Personal Force Field, but will apply to Containment Field, Protection Field, Field Surge, Mindful Reinforcement, Hardened Particle Matrix, Energy Refraction & Bastion. As well as NPC PFF.)
- This power's innate damage and knock strength have both been lowered by 10% as a trade off for new interactions with in set debuffs.
- This power will now rupture stacks of Disruptive Force for additional damage and knock distance (1.5% per stack).
- Targets who are affected by Eaves debuff and Disruptive Force debuff and have Force Detonation applied to them will have both debuffs removed and suffer from "Compression".
- "Compression" is a DoT, which deals scaling damage to the target as time goes on. The highest amount of damage this DoT can deal will be at the end of the duration (final tick). Lasts for 12 seconds.
- Upon successful 'detonation' of Eaves and Disruptive Force, Force Detonation's recharge is instantly reset. (Similar to Rimefire Burst).


Kinetic Manipulation

- Increases all of your ranged Physical (Crushing, Piercing, Slashing) damage. This increase scales with your Super Stats.
- Increases your resistance to all Physical Damage and greatly increases your resistance to Crushing and Piercing Damage. These resistances scale with your Super Stats.
- Generates a small amount of Energy when you are struck with Crushing attacks.
- This ability cannot be consumed by Force Cascade. Instead it provides a high cost discount to Force Cascade (comparable to that of an energy form). However once Force Cascade consumes this benefit (on Tap or full charge), the cost discount will go into cooldown for 10 seconds.
- Foes struck by your attacks or who strike you have a 10/20/30% chance to be affected by “Disruptive Force”.


[Note: This next power has been underperforming since Beta and has unfortunately been neglected, but discussed to death on forums by both myself and perhaps more notably, Cyrone. As actual consistent users of this power, we have both discussed it and discussed it with others on forums (quite recently in fact). This version of PFF is sort of an ideal (IMO), which could potentially need certain aspects adjusted based on the perceptions of it's "fixed" presentation below.]

This next power is tricky, mainly because adding too much to this power can make it overpowered, and not adding enough makes it a waste of Development Time. It's been discussed on a poll thread where I gave my opinions alongside everyone else, despite some misinterpretations which arose. The version below is an "ideal" PFF, as I felt none of the options given in that poll were suitable for PFF alone, so I've crafted an ideal based on my previous ideas. The idea is that PFF should be able to stay within healthy shield ranges and should NOT be dependent on high end bubblers / bubbles to function.

Personal Force Field

- In Combat Shield Regeneration is now a consistent value, which is shown on tooltip.
- Shield Regeneration scaling has been improved slightly.
- Shield Regeneration rate is now per 1.5 sec (up from per 3 secs)
- Personal Force Field now comes with a new power called "Force Burst". Force Burst ranks up as you rank up PFF. Force Burst grants the user 50% of their maximum Personal Force Field value instantly and doubles the current regeneration rate of PFF for 20 seconds, but can only be activated at less than or equal to 40% maximum PFF. This ability has a 30 second fixed cooldown.
- Personal Force Field no longer benefits from Compassion Form's boost to shields.
- Personal Force Field no longer benefits from the following shield boosting specializations Administer & Enforcer (within Overseer & Arbiter trees).
- Personal Force Field now has 30% damage resistance added to the actual containment field effect it applies (= the shield it grants).
- This damage resistance can increase by a maximum of 15% as shields deplete. (bonus resistance kicks in around 70% remaining shield)

Protection Field

- This ability’s shielding strength now scales with your super stats in addition to gaining bonuses from Presence/ Bonus Healing. This scaling is NOT doubled if you super stat Presence.
- Placing Protection Field on a Personal Force Field user will now, in addition to what it already does, increase Personal Force Field's regeneration rate by 0.5 seconds (= basically this means that applying Proc Field to PFF will make the regeneration rate speed up to 1 second).
- Protection Field's base shield amount has been increased slightly.


Force Snap
- Range has been increased to 60ft.
- Activation time has been reduced to 0.5 seconds
- Entropic Collapse Advantage has had an increase in range to 20ft with a 5 target cap (up from 10ft w/ 4 target cap)


Force Eruption
- PBAoE effect has been increased to 20ft up from 10ft.
- Damage has been increased slightly.
- Cost has been increased slightly.
- Gravitational Polarity advantage no longer requires you to be in one place and is now a status effect which increases all damage by 15% for 8 seconds.


Force Shield
- In addition to its current abilities, Force Shield now has an innate ability to reflect a portion of incoming damage:
- Rank 1 = Reflect 5% of incoming damage.
- Rank 2 = Reflect 10% of incoming damage.
- Rank 3 = Reflect 15% of incoming damage.
- This reflect effect can only occur once every 5 seconds. A lockout icon should show when the effect has been consumed.

Force Geyser
- Hard Landing advantage now applies “Disruptive Force” instead of Snare.
- Force Geyser's damage has been increased
- Force Geyser now deals damage and knocks targets in a small 5ft sphere around the primary target.
- Energy cost for Force Geyser has been increased ever so slightly
- Cooldown has been increased to 10 seconds base (up from 3 seconds)

Inertial Dampening Field
- Inertial Dampening Field or IDF has been adjusted to become an Active Defensive Ultimate.
- IDF now grants a high absorption and damage resistance effect to all allies within a 35ft radius of the caster.
- VFX spawns a clear bubble effect which should have some level of VFX priority.
- Active Defensive effect lasts for 15 seconds. Has a 2 minutes 30 second cooldown.


Containment Field

- Containment Field now applies to a maximum of 5 targets within an area.
- The protection that this ability's shielding provides to targets has been reduced to 15%.
- Containment Field now also deals crushing damage whilst the shielding effect it grants is still active. (similar to how Grasping Shadows can deal damage but not break the hold)
- Charge time and energy cost have been re-worked to reflect AoE effect.
- Cooldown increased to 15 seconds base.
- New Advantage: "Feel The Force". Feel the Force allows Containment Field to apply Eaves to affected targets.



Field Surge

- The base restore to Personal Force Field that Field Surge grants has been increased. 10,000 @ Rank 1, 15,000 @ Rank 2 & 20,000 @ Rank 3.
- The force field that Field Surge provides can activate the "Surging Shields" buff.
- Surging Shields buff causes the force field that Field Surge provides to continually regenerate itself for the full 15 seconds IF used in conjunction with Kinetic Manipulation Passive or Personal Force Field Passive. Outside of these two passives, Field Surge will simply provide a shield.
-
Note: Unleashed AT will have the Field Surge Active Defensive switched for Masterful Dodge.


Crushing Wave
- This ability has been reworked to deal its damage per 0.5 sec.
- Crushing Wave no longer locks you down.
- Duration of this ability has been increased to 5 seconds to put it in line with Wind Breath.
- Activation time of this ability has been lowered to .67 seconds to put it in line with Wind Breath.
- The energy cost per period and initial cost have been reduced to put it in line with Wind Breath.
- Crushing Wave now has a chance per tick to apply "Disruptive Force" debuff. This increases per rank. (25% / 35% / 45% chance)
- Crushing Wave now has a new VFX. The adjusted VFX is intended to symbolize the character sending ‘fast moving force fields’ towards the targets.
- Crushing Wave’s advantage has been renamed to “Oppressive Force.” This is just a naming change, the advantage will still work the same.
- Crushing Wave maintains now proc the forms it should.
- Crushing Wave now works with the appropriate specializations.


Force Cascade
- Cost of this power has been lowered very slightly.
- Force Cascade no longer consumes Energy Forms, but instead applies “Drained” debuff. Drained reduces Energy Form damage boosting effects by 90% for 10 seconds, when applied.
- Force Cascade cannot consume Kinetic Manipulation and does not apply “Drained” to Kinetic Manipulation.
- New Advantage: “Cascade Event” - This power will now rupture stacks of Disruptive Force on targets it hits for additional damage and knock distance.


Redirected Force
- Damage reduction from this power has been increased per rank. (15%/20%/30% - Rank 1/2/3 respectively)
- Now additionally grants damage absorption similar to old IDF.
+ Damage bonus now applies to ALL damage but has been lowered to: 5% / 10% /15% - Rank 1/2/3 respectively.
+ Cost of maintaining this power has been reduced by 20%.
+ SFX for Redirected Force has been adjusted to get rid of the electric sound on activation.
+ Damage bonus gained from this power now caps at 4.


--


Additional Powers for Force

The list of powers below (will be added as time goes on) are new abilities which I would add to the power set to flesh it out more and perhaps grant it more flexibility in terms of portraying a more defensive play style. (I've got quite a few ideas for it, so stay tuned!)


New Power – Potential Energy – Form Power
- Grants a stack of Velocity whenever you knock, apply Eaves or Disruptive Force to targets.
- Each stack of Velocity increases your Ranged Damage by XX% and your melee damage by X%.
- Potential Energy Form scales with Ego.
- Activating this form increases your energy costs by 10%.

Suggested VFX: Rank 3 Force Eruption charge up sequence.


New Power – Kinetic Reverberation – Energy Unlock
+ Grants energy when you attempt to KNOCK an enemy with your Force powers.
+ Grants additional energy when you apply or strike targets affected by Eaves, Compression or Disruptive Force.
+ Scales with Recovery but is still affected by your Endurance.


New Power – Force Barrier – Defensive Uncontrollable Summon (Click)

+ Summons a large force field in front of your current position which shields you and any allies behind it from incoming damage.
+ Summoned force field utilizes new threat absorption mechanics which redirects all threat from shielded allies into the field.
+ The summoned force field has a protection field style force field (159,999 force field) and 1 HP and has 20% innate damage resistance.
+ This ability cannot be ranked up and has no advantages.
+ This force field cannot be affected by any support auras, healing, caster super stat bonuses, caster defense and cannot be shielded. Additionally it does not benefit from any specializations.
+ This ability lasts for a maximum of 50 seconds and has a nonadjustable cool down of 3 minutes.
+ Upon activation this ability drains 90% of your maximum energy and places an energy generation debuff on you.
+ Standing behind this summoned force field removes this debuff and grants you a small EoT.
+ If the shield is destroyed before its maximum duration, it will detonate granting a burst of energy to you and shielded allies as well as a minor damage boost (10% damage boost).

Suggested VFX: (CLICK)


New Power - Force Barrage

- Ranged Combo power (a series of three clicks similar to Telekinetic Strikes but activates slower), five targets maximum. 100ft range.
- Deals Ranged AoE Crushing Damage which increases per strike with the highest damage hitting at the end of the combo.
- Completing a Force Barrage combo will apply "Eaves" to your primary target and any nearby targets.
Advantage: Defensive Strikes
- Force Barrage now provides a damage shield effect (up to 300 points of damage)., at 3 stacks you cannot gain any more stacks until the damage shield portion of this effect is thoroughly depleted.
Advantage: Disruptive Strikes
- This advantage gives Force Barrage an escalating chance to apply "Disruptive Force" to targets per click. (30%/60%/90% chance)
- "Disruptive Force" debuff reduces enemy movement by reducing their ability to move by 30% per stack and causes enemies with close proximity to gravitate towards each other. This stacks to three & has a global cap of 6.

Notes: The gravitation part of "Disruptive Force" does not apply to the following enemies, however the movement reduction will:

*Other Champions (Players) & above (so Super Villains, Legendary & Cosmic Rank foes).


(Concept is similar to mini Gravity Drivers slamming down on enemies. Only similar VFX I can find is this: (Sue Storm's Crushing Force ability from MH)

Suggested VFX: Below






New Utility Modification - Gravitar's Disdain

- Increases your Force power damage by X% all bonus damage strength.

UPDATED: 04/03/18
Post edited by theravenforce on
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Comments

  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,556 Arc User
    I also personally would like to see Gravity Well mechanic becoming a legit setup and debuff for the whole powerframe , and not just something extra from Gravity Ripple!
    Because you know, Gravity, Magnetism e.t.c and you could combo them with the ridiculous KNOCKS

    My complain with the Force powerframe is how Boring and Frustating it is!

    The whole focus is about Force Cascade, all the other attacks are MEH

    and the only power which I like, Crushing Wave, is bugged and underperforming... great​​
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point
    An Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable but farms way to much to archieve that
    Playing as EVERYTHING but Superheroesm! Playing since 1 February 2011
    Currently playing with 86+ Characters (7 ATs, 79 FFs) Loving all of them, ALTitis for Life! Run out of unique FF builds!
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,812 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    avianos said:

    I also personally would like to see Gravity Well mechanic becoming a legit setup and debuff for the whole powerframe , and not just something extra from Gravity Ripple!

    Because you know, Gravity, Magnetism e.t.c and you could combo them with the ridiculous KNOCKS



    My complain with the Force powerframe is how Boring and Frustating it is!



    The whole focus is about Force Cascade, all the other attacks are MEH



    and the only power which I like, Crushing Wave, is bugged and underperforming... great​​

    This is sort of what I tried to do with "Disruptive Force" mechanic. (See Force Blast)

    The only concern I have is making it strong enough to be noticeable but not vomit inducing like the very first iteration of Gravity Well from Onslaught Gravitar, which is why I limited their stacks.
  • rtmartma Posts: 1,195 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    What you did with Force Cascade, to synergize with Kinetic Manipulation is what I've been wanting for a while now, That alone would make me what to give Quantum, Kinetic Manipulation as his Passive, Cause for some of us it's quite literal distinction with these forms, the current Energy Stripping just gimps it so hard, it's not worth it. >.-.<
    Want to get to know me a bit better, Click me and take a read of My Dragon Profile Page, it's a bit dated but still relevant.

    I take this quote from a review that I agree with.

    "customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
  • squirrelloidsquirrelloid Posts: 868 Arc User
    Despite having a force toon, it mostly stuck to reliable powers like force cascade and force snap, so i actually have no opinion on most of these changes. Kinetic manipulation change would mean i don't feel compelled to run in support and use a magic aura passive with FC though =)

    The one thing I don't like is the resistance debuff being specific to 'ranged crushing'. (1) It's a terrible precedent to distinguish by both ranged/melee and damage type, (2) It doesn't prevent any shenanigans. There's already plenty of other crushing debuffs (to the point that fitting them all into one build is hard), nor does it prevent splashing this power in other frameworks (PA also uses ranged crushing damage), it just says some frameworks don't get nice things despite using the same damage type.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,812 Arc User
    rtma said:

    What you did with Force Cascade, to synergize with Kinetic Manipulation is what I've been wanting for a while now, That alone would make me what to give Quantum, Kinetic Manipulation as his Passive, Cause for some of us it's quite literal distinction with these forms, the current Energy Stripping just gimps it so hard, it's not worth it. >.-.<

    Yeah, its something that has needed to happen for a while. Especially with the introduction of Earth Form which in most aspects outclasses it. Having a unique interaction with in set abilities is a must IMO
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,040 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    Hrr... while I agree the force set has problems, I'm not a big fan of the things you mention; in particular, anything resembling Gravity Well is anathema and should be removed from the game. I'd be tempted by just replacing anything about Containment Field with a new debuff, Contained, which reduces movement speed and damage. This gives us:
    Force Blast Field Inversion: detonates Contained, causing damage to the target and nearby enemies. In addition, the power inherently bypasses shielding effects.
    Containment Field: tap applies or refreshes Contained. Charge paralyzes. Does not give the target defense, all that does is result in event griefing.
    Force Detonation: no changes, except Field Spate: detonates Contained, causing damage to the target and nearby enemies.
    Force Cascade: cost is reduced if primary target is Contained. Consumes Contained on all targets. No longer consumes energy forms. Containment Blast: chance, based on charge time, to apply Contained. This is resolved after consuming Contained.

    (PFF and Field Surge are a separate topic).
  • vonqballvonqball Posts: 850 Arc User
    kinda like pantagruel's take on this...

    But, I think force blast should have a chance to apply contained, rather than consume it. I think blasts work better as set-up moves than finishers. Also, FB shouldn't bypass shields.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,812 Arc User
    edited March 2016

    Hrr... while I agree the force set has problems, I'm not a big fan of the things you mention; in particular, anything resembling Gravity Well is anathema and should be removed from the game. I'd be tempted by just replacing anything about Containment Field with a new debuff, Contained, which reduces movement speed and damage. This gives us:
    Force Blast Field Inversion: detonates Contained, causing damage to the target and nearby enemies. In addition, the power inherently bypasses shielding effects.
    Containment Field: tap applies or refreshes Contained. Charge paralyzes. Does not give the target defense, all that does is result in event griefing.
    Force Detonation: no changes, except Field Spate: detonates Contained, causing damage to the target and nearby enemies.
    Force Cascade: cost is reduced if primary target is Contained. Consumes Contained on all targets. No longer consumes energy forms. Containment Blast: chance, based on charge time, to apply Contained. This is resolved after consuming Contained.

    (PFF and Field Surge are a separate topic).

    The main problem that I assume, you'd have with anything that functions similarly to Gravity Well, would be that it could potentially screw up PvP.

    Note that I did specifically say that the gravitation effect wouldn't apply to anything above Master Villain, which = Players, Super Villains, Legendary and Cosmic foes.

    Also the Gravitational effect would be severe enough to notice but not vomit inducing or overly disorientating. Kind of like Gravity Well now but slightly less powerful.

    The main issue most have with Gravity Well debuff is how high it can stack, since when it is continually stacked THAT is when it causes a severe issue.

    To test how I see it working/what I mean, grab a Gravitar OSV and stack three stacks ONLY of Gravity Well on a target and see what happens. It's honestly not that crippling.


    EDIT: I realize I didn't explicitly state what it stacked to, but I will now.

    --

    Thoughts on the "Contained" buff...the whole reason why I suggested Disruptive Force etc, was to move away (somewhat) from the idea of having Force Blast interact with Containment Fields in any way shape or form. I also think it would be an idea to make it more refreshing as a power set, to give people a reason to use multiple powers from Force except for the normal three:

    Force Geyser
    Force Cascade
    Force Detonation

    --

    Force Blast - IMO, the only ability that should have an interaction with bypassing shielding is poison. Nothing else should never bypass shielding or interact with it negatively aside from normal damage to shields. I suggested removing the knock component from it, so that it would become a more "practical" ability. Currently in Force, aside from Crushing Wave...there is no offensive ability in the set which does not inflict some sort of knock. Considering how the knock system works, it quickly sucks the fun out of the whole gimmick surrounding Force. Repel would be much more friendly as a starter mechanic. This would allow later abilities such as Force Detonation and Force Cascade to have the monopoly over knocking back enemies.

    Containment Field - Reason why I reduced the protection instead of removing it is because the shield it applies actually "increases" the difficulty of breaking out for targets. (This works on the principle that less damage gets through to damage the static hold HP so it lasts longer, nothing special). If innately it was a decent ability then I'd outright remove the shielding it provides.

    Force Detonation - Honestly would prefer my version, not just because I suggested it (:tongue:)..but because of how it would work in comparison to how it does now. The set up required would make it a much more useful ability and I'd likely lower it's knock power to compensate for the interactions it has. Also the one thing I've absolutely hated since the Intelligence statistic's cooldown ability was nerfed by 75%, is the cooldown on Force Detonation. Having it work on a "charges" system would be pretty unique and make it a much more accessible ability with the combination mechanics I suggested.

    Force Cascade - As I stated in my example, I think the cost discount should be distinctly special/unique to Kinetic Manipulation as an in set ability. I'd still fix a penalty to other Energy Form users who make use of FC outside of Kinetic Manipulation, however as previously stated the effect would not be as severe as stripping you of your passive for 8 seconds.

    --

    Aside from the obvious (Gravity Well's suggested relation Disruptive Force), anything else which you didn't like?
    Post edited by theravenforce on
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,812 Arc User

    Despite having a force toon, it mostly stuck to reliable powers like force cascade and force snap, so i actually have no opinion on most of these changes. Kinetic manipulation change would mean i don't feel compelled to run in support and use a magic aura passive with FC though =)

    The one thing I don't like is the resistance debuff being specific to 'ranged crushing'. (1) It's a terrible precedent to distinguish by both ranged/melee and damage type, (2) It doesn't prevent any shenanigans. There's already plenty of other crushing debuffs (to the point that fitting them all into one build is hard), nor does it prevent splashing this power in other frameworks (PA also uses ranged crushing damage), it just says some frameworks don't get nice things despite using the same damage type.

    Kinetic Manipulation was in part designed to be used with Force quite a bit so I can see WHY it is ranged Crushing boost, but honestly if I could I would actually adjust it to "Physical damage" to make it more friendly.

    At the end of the day...Earth Form should still be an attractive choice, but so should Kinetic Manipulation perhaps for it's suggested interaction with FC.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,040 Arc User


    The main problem that I assume, you'd have with anything that functions similarly to Gravity Well, would be that it could potentially screw up PvP.

    I didn't notice that you specified it not working on players. In that case, it's mostly harmless (though gravity well occasionally causes other bugs if things aren't properly repel immune) but almost completely useless.

    Force Blast - IMO, the only ability that should have an interaction with bypassing shielding is poison.

    Honestly, I don't care one way or the other about that.

    Containment Field - Reason why I reduced the protection instead of removing it is because the shield it applies actually "increases" the difficulty of breaking out for targets. (This works on the principle that less damage gets through to damage the static hold HP so it lasts longer, nothing special).

    Pretty sure damage to holds is applied before mitigation, so it has absolutely no useful effect.

    Force Detonation - Honestly would prefer my version, not just because I suggested it (:tongue:)..but because of how it would work in comparison to how it does now.

    Okay, my problems with it are: (a) it still interacts with mechanics like protection field, which is a bad design in the first place, and (b) it's overly complex.

    Force Cascade - As I stated in my example, I think the cost discount should be distinctly special/unique to Kinetic Manipulation as an in set ability.

    It should just not eat energy forms in the first place. There's no need for other special interactions with the set passive, most powers don't.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,812 Arc User


    I didn't notice that you specified it not working on players. In that case, it's mostly harmless (though gravity well occasionally causes other bugs if things aren't properly repel immune) but almost completely useless.

    I sort of had in mind a Chill style debuff? So it would repel but also reduce movement speed of the target making distancing easier. Instead of knocking them till kingdom come and then having to chase them to deal damage.

    Honestly, I don't care one way or the other about that.

    Thought as much. :tongue:

    Pretty sure damage to holds is applied before mitigation, so it has absolutely no useful effect.

    Nope. If that was the case, holds would be incredibly dangerous and sparse both in PvP and PvE. Being held does not lockout or devalue your defense in any way shape or form*. It is specializations which affect how much damage you take, not the actual hold.

    * = Excludes having the ability to block or shield yourself. Whilst held you can activate AD's & AO's and your defense stat/ dodge and avoidance still apply.

    Okay, my problems with it are: (a) it still interacts with mechanics like protection field, which is a bad design in the first place, and (b) it's overly complex.

    A- Even on LIVE Force Detonation interacts with Containment Field mechanics (such as Protection Field), via an advantage, so that's kinda moot. I do have a suggestion for an all new power which would require all interactions with containment field mechanics in Force to be scrapped and tied to this one power specifically but that's for later.

    B- Eh, not really. It basically does everything it does now, but has charges, interacts with in-set debuffs and applies a DoT.

    It should just not eat energy forms in the first place. There's no need for other special interactions with the set passive, most powers don't.

    The problem there is that when it was designed...and still even now, it's a beastly power, to not affect Energy Forms in anyway would make it hilariously OP.

    The suggestion I made (you'd have to read both KM suggestion and FC) would still provide a downside, just one which is not as severe as removing your entire passive whilst you are in combat.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,040 Arc User


    Nope. If that was the case, holds would be incredibly dangerous and sparse both in PvP and PvE. Being held does not lockout or devalue your defense in any way shape or form*.

    I meant, damage to the hold is evaluated first. As far as I can determine, if you're inside a hold with 2,000 health, blocking (this happens with npc holds because of how their linger works) and get hit for 2,000 damage, the hold will pop and you'll take a few hundred damage.

    It should just not eat energy forms in the first place. There's no need for other special interactions with the set passive, most powers don't.

    The problem there is that when it was designed...and still even now, it's a beastly power, to not affect Energy Forms in anyway would make it hilariously OP.
    The original intent was that the energy cost was so heinous that you would want to spend an energy form to bring it down to something manageable -- eating energy forms was thought of as an advantage. Currently, it just means that if you're using an offensive passive on a FC build, you should use something that isn't an energy form, such as Quarry.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    I like all these things. I think you're going a bit overboard with buffing PFF, but the numbers would be tested and adjusted anyways so no use really discussing the specific amounts there. Not so sure about the 10 charges thing with Force Detonation... removing the cooldown and raising the damage? Not sure that's gonna fly. I say forget the charges thing, keep the cooldown, and keep all your other changes to it.

    One issue...


    New Power – Kinetic Reverberation – Energy Unlock
    + Grants energy when you attempt to KNOCK or repel an enemy with your powers.
    + Scales with EGO or STR whichever is higher but is still affected by your Recovery.

    Let's change that to "Grants energy when you attempt to KNOCK an enemy with a ranged power"

    We already have a repel EU in the Wind set, and having repel in this one would then mean this effectively replaces that.

    Also, cooldown increase on Force Geyser.

    The one thing I don't like is the resistance debuff being specific to 'ranged crushing'.

    It makes sense given the reality of crushing debuffs in the game.
  • raighnraighn Posts: 2,340 Arc User
    spinnytop said:



    New Power – Kinetic Reverberation – Energy Unlock
    + Grants energy when you attempt to KNOCK or repel an enemy with your powers.
    + Scales with EGO or STR whichever is higher but is still affected by your Recovery.

    Let's change that to "Grants energy when you attempt to KNOCK an enemy with a ranged power"

    We already have a repel EU in the Wind set, and having repel in this one would then mean this effectively replaces that.
    Actually this would create an option... Wind Reverb scales with End so this would give an option for builds that don't stack end to have an EU for repels...
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  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,812 Arc User

    I meant, damage to the hold is evaluated first. As far as I can determine, if you're inside a hold with 2,000 health, blocking (this happens with npc holds because of how their linger works) and get hit for 2,000 damage, the hold will pop and you'll take a few hundred damage.

    Generally speaking with holds, if you block it and take literally just a few hundred points of damage twice it'll break. NPC's aren't smart when it comes to CC and all their tiny ticks of damage will damage the hold they've placed on a player.

    Also remember that blocking also naturally takes a chunk out of NPC CC as well as other things.

    However the containment effect on Containment Field is supposed to act like damage resistance for the hold HP (if you will).


  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,812 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    spinnytop said:

    I like all these things. I think you're going a bit overboard with buffing PFF, but the numbers would be tested and adjusted anyways so no use really discussing the specific amounts there. Not so sure about the 10 charges thing with Force Detonation... removing the cooldown and raising the damage? Not sure that's gonna fly. I say forget the charges thing, keep the cooldown, and keep all your other changes to it.

    Regarding PFF: Looking at it, even when I posted it I knew it was going a bit crazy. But it honestly needs most of that stuff to be competitive whilst retaining it's concept (if you will). If I had to let anything go...

    It'd be the damage resistance, increasing as shields get lower, just allow it to be a set value.

    Everything else, I'd keep. But naturally all would have to be tested etc.

    The loss of Compassion boosting and spec boosting would affect PFF's usability for SOME builds, so having something to:

    1) Bring it up to where it should be (everything bar damage resistance)
    2) Give it an additional boost (30% damage resistance)

    Would be ideal.

    Regarding Force Detonation: Cooldown would come into play after successive uses, so not totally eradicated. However, I am aware players would find a way around this so, perhaps 5/7/10 charges Rank 1/2/3 respectively. Each use puts the ability into a 1 second fixed CD, once all charges are depleted the normal cooldown applies. Charges recharge once out of combat or when there are no charges left (during the cooldown period).

    Probably didn't state this but I will now, Force Detonation's damage would be reduced by around 10% to compensate for the Disruptive Force interaction (which boosts damage).
    spinnytop said:

    One issue...


    New Power – Kinetic Reverberation – Energy Unlock
    + Grants energy when you attempt to KNOCK or repel an enemy with your powers.
    + Scales with EGO or STR whichever is higher but is still affected by your Recovery.

    Let's change that to "Grants energy when you attempt to KNOCK an enemy with a ranged power"

    We already have a repel EU in the Wind set, and having repel in this one would then mean this effectively replaces that.
    The reason why I specifically made this ability not range specific is that Might users could also use it, or literally any set with knocks. Hence why it also scales with STR.

    Repel based energy unlock in Wind is pretty awful and does require END to be decent, this would be a useful alternative for builds to use, without having to shoe horn them into END in order to use an energy unlock based on their main mechanic. #Variety
    spinnytop said:

    Also, cooldown increase on Force Geyser.

    Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr..... yeah, I'd have to agree on this one, but I'd probably make it a small AoE, increase the damage and then add on a 10 second base CD to Force Geyser.

    Post edited by theravenforce on
  • raighnraighn Posts: 2,340 Arc User

    I meant, damage to the hold is evaluated first. As far as I can determine, if you're inside a hold with 2,000 health, blocking (this happens with npc holds because of how their linger works) and get hit for 2,000 damage, the hold will pop and you'll take a few hundred damage.

    Generally speaking with holds, if you block it and take literally just a few hundred points of damage twice it'll break. NPC's aren't smart when it comes to CC and all their tiny ticks of damage will damage the hold they've placed on a player.

    Also remember that blocking also naturally takes a chunk out of NPC CC as well as other things.

    However the containment effect on Containment Field is supposed to act like damage resistance for the hold HP (if you will).


    All shields behave this way in my experiance... holds are actually very annoying for a PFF user and for anyone who's got a support throwing PF or MR on them constantly while they are held... hold HP is only impacted by the bleed through damage when shielded. (I spent the entirety of the boss fight in a Caligorn Alert held once because of a support who kept shielding me with RF while I was held)
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  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,812 Arc User
    raighn said:

    All shields behave this way in my experiance... holds are actually very annoying for a PFF user and for anyone who's got a support throwing PF or MR on them constantly while they are held... hold HP is only impacted by the bleed through damage when shielded. (I spent the entirety of the boss fight in a Caligorn Alert held once because of a support who kept shielding me with RF while I was held)

    Weird you should say that.

    I've never had that experience myself, both on my PFF toon and having been shielded whilst held and shielding others whilst they are held.

    Generally if I see a hold coming, I move, block early or counter it via CC detonation. But then again, in all situations aside from OSV Medusa's hard stun I have more than enough CC resistance to counter holds using the multiple available counters.

    There USED to be an issue where breakfree damage that you applied to a hold instead applied to your Personal Force Field, effectively killing your passive if you were held...I reported that and then things went all kinds of crazy with PFF once it was fixed for that specific issue >_>.

    That bit about Cairngorn interests me though. I really like how his holds work, takes me back... :heartbreak:

    I know that his hold has real hold HP which is continually added to as the hold stacks, it's brilliant and that's probably the kind of strength a CCer should be seeing from all their hold powers (maintained ones), but for "reasons" this cannot be allowed to happen. (It'd upset some who like PvP and don't want to use counters :trollface: )
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,040 Arc User
    I suspect cairngorm is just using npc bindings of aratron, it continually refreshes which makes it permanent.
  • squirrelloidsquirrelloid Posts: 868 Arc User
    spinnytop said:


    Let's change that to "Grants energy when you attempt to KNOCK an enemy with a ranged power"

    We already have a repel EU in the Wind set, and having repel in this one would then mean this effectively replaces that.

    ...

    It makes sense given the reality of crushing debuffs in the game.

    Yes, let's make all EUs and resistance debuffs and everything hyper-specific to power framework, because everyone who wants to play cross-framework characters are dirty cheaters and should be treated as such.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User


    Probably didn't state this but I will now, Force Detonation's damage would be reduced by around 10% to compensate for the Disruptive Force interaction (which boosts damage).

    That still sounds like a massive buff to the power... like a titanic buff. There must be some balancing factor I'm not seeing here, because all I see is me being able to just spam the dickens out of this power and occasionally having to wait 15 seconds for the charges to reset. I also don't really like the idea of the damage going down... then again to me this power looks just fine so really any change to it is questionable in my eyes.


    The reason why I specifically made this ability not range specific is that Might users could also use it, or literally any set with knocks. Hence why it also scales with STR.

    Repel based energy unlock in Wind is pretty awful and does require END to be decent, this would be a useful alternative for builds to use, without having to shoe horn them into END in order to use an energy unlock based on their main mechanic. #Variety

    So here are my choices for a repel-based energy unlock: One which requires me to use END, and one which lets me use Ego, a stat that will also get me energy from my form and allow me to increase my damage both through its own bonus and my form... okay looking back at the one that makes me use END it gets me....higher total energy pool. I mean... can you give me a compelling reason why I would use the wind one after this?

    As for Might, one of the things people complain about is that they have to take out-of-set Energy Unlocks... I don't really see a solution to that being the creation of another out of set Energy Unlock that works for them. Even with being restricted to ranged attacks, there would still be plenty of cross set synergies - in fact, it would remain one of the EUs with the most cross-set synergies rivaling that of MSA. It's not as if "you gotta have a knock on a short cooldown" is particularly restricting.. making that a ranged knock is only slightly more restricting.

    I'd also like to see Might builds actually be less dependent on using Knocks as their source of energy, because so far it's knocks knocks knocks to trigger their energy gains. I'd rather not throw yet another knock-based source of energy onto their pile to pigeon hole them even more into that process of knocking for energy. I have a personal friend who has a big gripe about that - he feels like if he doesn't send things flying out of melee reach, he's SOL when it comes to getting any energy.

    One could say that it would actually reduce the amount of #BUILDDIVERSITY that might characters have access to if you focus them even more around knocking for energy.


    Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr..... yeah, I'd have to agree on this one, but I'd probably make it a small AoE, increase the damage and then add on a 10 second base CD to Force Geyser.

    That sounds neat.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,812 Arc User

    I suspect cairngorm is just using npc bindings of aratron, it continually refreshes which makes it permanent.

    Yeah, it's a delayed hold (sort of like our incapaciderps but infinitely better), the first two stacks do nothing to you but once he reaches 2 stacks and applies more, you're toast, well...bound toast?

    The next time he's in an alert, try getting his attention but make sure something which breaks LoS is nearby, (like in Juryrig's Garage) that way you can take 2 stacks and run off and hide for a few moments then resume fighting.

    The reason why it is so bloody annoying to break out of is because of his status/rank and because we're scaled down (at level 40), it's a bit like the Hatchling's Roar in TA (which is another awesome boss hold), in terms of power at least.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,812 Arc User
    spinnytop said:

    That still sounds like a massive buff to the power... like a titanic buff. There must be some balancing factor I'm not seeing here, because all I see is me being able to just spam the dickens out of this power and occasionally having to wait 15 seconds for the charges to reset. I also don't really like the idea of the damage going down... then again to me this power looks just fine so really any change to it is questionable in my eyes.

    Even on damage orientated builds, I've always personally felt that Force Detonation was lacking in a large way. For mobs yeah, it's a great power to quickly scatter everyone, but since the Intelligence adjustment, the cooldown on it is incredibly unappealing and in my opinion impedes the power somewhat.

    The amount of charges that a player gains may have to be lowered to something like 3/5/7 Ranks 1/2/3 respectively though.

    The damage reduction on Force Detonation is to sort of be a trade off for the interactions I've proposed.

    spinnytop said:

    So here are my choices for a repel-based energy unlock: One which requires me to use END, and one which lets me use Ego, a stat that will also get me energy from my form and allow me to increase my damage both through its own bonus and my form... okay looking back at the one that makes me use END it gets me....higher total energy pool. I mean... can you give me a compelling reason why I would use the wind one after this?

    You could be an AT... :no_mouth:

    Other reasons may be that your build has limited use for EGO or STR due to what you intend to build. Or that you don't actually want to use EGO on your build and figure you'd like to try something new.

    Honestly I'm not too sure. My main objective was to make an energy unlock which works with attempted knocks. However thinking about it, I will likely re-tool that suggestion, along with Force Geyser's.

    If it really was such an issue it could lose the repel aspect and set that aside for Wind Reverberation.

    spinnytop said:

    As for Might, one of the things people complain about is that they have to take out-of-set Energy Unlocks... I don't really see a solution to that being the creation of another out of set Energy Unlock that works for them.

    Fair point.
    spinnytop said:

    I'd also like to see Might builds actually be less dependent on using Knocks as their source of energy, because so far it's knocks knocks knocks to trigger their energy gains. I'd rather not throw yet another knock-based source of energy onto their pile to pigeon hole them even more into that process of knocking for energy. I have a personal friend who has a big gripe about that - he feels like if he doesn't send things flying out of melee reach, he's SOL when it comes to getting any energy. One could say that it would actually reduce the amount of #BUILDDIVERSITY that might characters have access to if you focus them even more around knocking for energy.

    Perhaps someone should suggest "Empower" - Your Might and Heavy Weapons attacks grant you a burst of energy whenever they cause you to drop below 15% of your maximum energy. This energy gain scales with your Constitution but is affected by your Recovery.

    :tongue:

  • raighnraighn Posts: 2,340 Arc User

    spinnytop said:

    I'd also like to see Might builds actually be less dependent on using Knocks as their source of energy, because so far it's knocks knocks knocks to trigger their energy gains. I'd rather not throw yet another knock-based source of energy onto their pile to pigeon hole them even more into that process of knocking for energy. I have a personal friend who has a big gripe about that - he feels like if he doesn't send things flying out of melee reach, he's SOL when it comes to getting any energy. One could say that it would actually reduce the amount of #BUILDDIVERSITY that might characters have access to if you focus them even more around knocking for energy.

    Perhaps someone should suggest "Empower" - Your Might and Heavy Weapons attacks grant you a burst of energy whenever they cause you to drop below 15% of your maximum energy. This energy gain scales with your Constitution but is affected by your Recovery.

    :tongue:

    Might/HW version of Supernatural Power O.o they will never run out of energy...
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  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,812 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    raighn said:

    Might/HW version of Supernatural Power O.o they will never run out of energy...

    Hehe, yup!

    I think especially that would be great for might/HW Tanks since Tank Role still has that silly energy penalty, so they'll be able to spend more time attacking.


    EDIT: Updated OP.
  • raighnraighn Posts: 2,340 Arc User

    raighn said:

    Might/HW version of Supernatural Power O.o they will never run out of energy...

    Hehe, yup!

    I think especially that would be great for might/HW Tanks since Tank Role still has that silly energy penalty, so they'll be able to spend more time attacking.


    EDIT: Updated OP.
    Don'y let spinny hear you mention that... they've been defending that silly energy penalty furiously on another thread :/
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User


    Perhaps someone should suggest "Empower" - Your Might and Heavy Weapons attacks grant you a burst of energy whenever they cause you to drop below 15% of your maximum energy. This energy gain scales with your Constitution but is affected by your Recovery.

    :tongue:

    I think there's enough stuff that scales with Constitution personally. I'd just have it scale purely with recovery. I'm also not a huge fan of just copying another Energy Unlock, and furthermore I'm not so sure that Supernatural Power would actually work well for might users. See, one of the issues I often encounter with SP is that it doesn't really let you get high energy - your energy is always kind of hanging out towards the empty end of your bar. Might characters on the other hand benefit from having large amounts of energy at their disposal ( especially those Haymaker guys ) - Supernatural Power is only really good at spamming low-cost abilities; when you start throwing high cost powers in there, it becomes very awkward to use as you start ending up with your energy at above 15% of your total energy pool, but too low to use the power you want to use ( It's for this reason that I recently grabbed Circle of Arcane Power on my character that uses Supernatural Power ).

    Me personally, I'd go with either something that gives Energy Over Time whenever you use a combo move, and can stack to three ( basically Overdrive that procs off of combo powers but with longer duration on the stacks ), or something like Form of the Tiger, where you would be getting energy every time you fully charge a melee power. In both cases I would have it scale with recovery/endurance. I especially like the first one as it integrates powers that people often don't see much use for, and in such a way that you wouldn't constantly have to spam the thing that procs the energy unlock, and also undeniably ties it to melee usage.

    Of course, this isn't a Might thread.
    raighn said:

    [Obvious bait]

  • raighnraighn Posts: 2,340 Arc User
    spinnytop said:

    See, one of the issues I often encounter with SP is that it doesn't really let you get high energy - your energy is always kind of hanging out towards the empty end of your bar. Might characters on the other hand benefit from having large amounts of energy at their disposal ( especially those Haymaker guys ) - Supernatural Power is only really good at spamming low-cost abilities; when you start throwing high cost powers in there, it becomes very awkward to use as you start ending up with your energy at above 15% of your total energy pool, but too low to use the power you want to use ( It's for this reason that I recently grabbed Circle of Arcane Power on my character that uses Supernatural Power ).

    Thats why everyone stacks End for SNP... get your max energy high enough that 15% is close enough to the cost of your highest cost power that the burst of energy from it keeps you on top... or stack enough Rec and SNP will take you from 15% to almost full constantly...




    Back on topic...

    Would that cap of 5 on the damage buff from Redirected Force be a hard cap... or would it function the same way the current cap of 10 works... that being currently you can get up to 10 stacks per ally shielded per attacking enemy (unless solo then it caps at 10 {10 per pet too} regardless of number of enemies, oddly enough)... In a 5 man alert I've gotten up to as high as 280 stacks (can get higher, but usually everything is dead by the time it reachess 280 stacks and the bonus expires quickly after that)
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  • spordeliaspordelia Posts: 401 Arc User
    I’m relatively new to Force and admittedly not the best at power mechanics and numbers. That said, I really like these suggestions, especially to PF, PFF and Force Detonation.

    I’d be slightly wary/ concerned about messing with Knocks (Force Blast mostly), which has been Force’s thing since always (and that I personally enjoy), but, if I get the idea is to expand on the set’s utility which I’m all for, trade-offs seems reasonable, all very well-defined.

    Love the idea of ‘Compression’, and I actually think it could make a cool new power for Force (a la Ego Choke, with a lingering DoT effect which could be detonated). Another dream power for Force would be a “Force Dome”, aka a large PBAoE protective bubble.

    Nice work, Raven! :+1:
    /SIGNED
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    raighn said:

    That's why everyone

    And you're wrong. That tends to happen when you use the word "everyone" :wink:
    raighn said:



    Would that cap of 5 on the damage buff from Redirected Force be a hard cap... or would it function the same way the current cap of 10 works... that being currently you can get up to 10 stacks per ally shielded per attacking enemy (unless solo then it caps at 10 {10 per pet too} regardless of number of enemies, oddly enough)... In a 5 man alert I've gotten up to as high as 280 stacks (can get higher, but usually everything is dead by the time it reachess 280 stacks and the bonus expires quickly after that)

    + Damage bonus gained from this power now caps at 5.

    Cap of five total, from the way it's written.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,040 Arc User
    Hm. I'd probably completely rewrite Redirected Force -- have it grant an on-next-hit damage effect equal to the damage redirected or something.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User

    Hm. I'd probably completely rewrite Redirected Force -- have it grant an on-next-hit damage effect equal to the damage redirected or something.

    Maybe, though that would tend to make it most useful to a single full charge of the biggest attack you have available. I like the way it is now, as a damage buff with a duration, because that doesn't restrict it in that way, and you could instead throw out a bunch of smaller attacks instead - the only restricting factor is how short the duration is.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,040 Arc User
    spinnytop said:

    Maybe, though that would tend to make it most useful to a single full charge of the biggest attack you have available.

    No, on-next-hit in the style of sonic device -- it's a fixed size proc.
  • raighnraighn Posts: 2,340 Arc User
    spinnytop said:

    raighn said:

    That's why everyone

    And you're wrong. That tends to happen when you use the word "everyone" :wink:
    raighn said:



    Would that cap of 5 on the damage buff from Redirected Force be a hard cap... or would it function the same way the current cap of 10 works... that being currently you can get up to 10 stacks per ally shielded per attacking enemy (unless solo then it caps at 10 {10 per pet too} regardless of number of enemies, oddly enough)... In a 5 man alert I've gotten up to as high as 280 stacks (can get higher, but usually everything is dead by the time it reachess 280 stacks and the bonus expires quickly after that)

    + Damage bonus gained from this power now caps at 5.

    Cap of five total, from the way it's written.
    Don't be a grammar nazi... fact of life people use "everyone" as a general term for a majority, in truth there are very few proper uses of the term "everyone" that follows it's litteral definition, it's used as a generalization rather than an exact. DEAL WITH IT.


    I ask about the cap because the current Redirected force states simply that the buff caps at 10, but in practice it's cap is based on the number of allies shielded and enemies attacking... so the question still remains valid.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User

    spinnytop said:

    Maybe, though that would tend to make it most useful to a single full charge of the biggest attack you have available.

    No, on-next-hit in the style of sonic device -- it's a fixed size proc.
    So, it's not even more useful on a full charge... I don't really like that to be honest, it's a huge down-sizing of the effect.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    raighn said:


    Don't be a grammar nazi... fact of life people use "everyone" as a general term for a majority, in truth there are very few proper uses of the term "everyone" that follows it's litteral definition, it's used as a generalization rather than an exact. DEAL WITH IT.

    Nah, I'm still going to be of the opinion that using the word "everyone" in that context is a fools errand. You may have accepted your mistake, but I'm not going to adopt it as a lifestyle just cause you say so ( even if you did use dat caps lock ).
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,040 Arc User
    spinnytop said:

    So, it's not even more useful on a full charge... I don't really like that to be honest, it's a huge down-sizing of the effect.

    Depends on the magnitude of the proc. Often a +% damage is negligible effect.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User

    spinnytop said:

    So, it's not even more useful on a full charge... I don't really like that to be honest, it's a huge down-sizing of the effect.

    Depends on the magnitude of the proc. Often a +% damage is negligible effect.
    I just feel like if I'm going to be using huge swaths of time and large amounts of energy on this power, it should be worth something to me. Granted, the main reason this power isn't useful is because NPCs don't warrant it, but in a fictional game universe where it does warrant it I still feel like if you're gonna give me a damage buff, it should be versatile.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,812 Arc User
    spordelia said:

    I’m relatively new to Force and admittedly not the best at power mechanics and numbers. That said, I really like these suggestions, especially to PF, PFF and Force Detonation.

    I’d be slightly wary/ concerned about messing with Knocks (Force Blast mostly), which has been Force’s thing since always (and that I personally enjoy), but, if I get the idea is to expand on the set’s utility which I’m all for, trade-offs seems reasonable, all very well-defined.

    Love the idea of ‘Compression’, and I actually think it could make a cool new power for Force (a la Ego Choke, with a lingering DoT effect which could be detonated). Another dream power for Force would be a “Force Dome”, aka a large PBAoE protective bubble.

    Nice work, Raven! :+1:
    /SIGNED

    Thanks!

    Yeah, I am wary about messing with knocks but they are both a blessing and a curse for the power set.

    A blessing in that it's stupidly fun to see enemies lunge towards you only to be booted into the atmosphere by a well timed Force Detonation OR Force Blast.

    On the other hand, you can hinder the rest of the team in team content and even yourself if you knock hard enough. Although the option for Force Blast (Overwhelming Force advantage) would allow players to have the original version of Force Blast.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,812 Arc User
    edited October 2017

    Hm. I'd probably completely rewrite Redirected Force -- have it grant an on-next-hit damage effect equal to the damage redirected or something.

    Eh, I think the concept is good but as is the case with some abilities in Champions Online, the implementation was horribad / could be a lot better.

    For ages before Redirected Force even appeared, myself and others had been asking for "AoE Shielding".

    When I think of Redirected Force, it just screams to me what it could have been if it had better VFX and better overall function.

    If it had to be re-written, I'd use Gravitar's domes as the VFX guidance for the area of effect and probably turn it into either a maintain power with a moderate energy cost or a click power with a lengthy cooldown.

    In fact, the VFX for a REAL AoE Shield already exist "in game".

    It's called "Force Wall" and should be around somewhere actually, but just for reference it had roughly the same range as Redirected Force (perhaps less) and looked like this:






    It was pretty awesome but blocked LoS for both the caster and the enemy (pictured), so you had to maneuver around it if you wanted to continue fighting.

    The problem with this power, aside from the potential "noise" it would generate is the fact that it was a very solid construct and irritated/disrupted NPCs...like so:



    Whilst at the time it was hilarious, it would not be particularly useful unless you have a group of heroes trying to run from annihilation OR if you wanted to contain a group of enemies (since it also could capture enemies within it).

    Having said that, I would love to see this power back in CO, with some alterations. Perhaps even converting Containment Field into this sort of power and adjusting the CD to match? *shrugs*
    Post edited by theravenforce on
  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,556 Arc User
    +++1 for Force Wall​​
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point
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  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,812 Arc User
    As a side note, I'd also adjust the Impulse AT to get rid of the silly addition of "Force Snap" and replace it with Kinetic Reverberation (new energy unlock, see OP)
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,812 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    avianos said:

    +++1 for Force Wall​​

    Yeah it would be a very nice power to have added for players, a new kind of defensive ability. A part of me wants to suggest that sigils also block LoS and gain a HP boost but that's for another thread... :tongue:
  • spordeliaspordelia Posts: 401 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    +++1 for ‘Force Wall’ also!!! :love:


    Thanks!

    Yeah, I am wary about messing with knocks but they are both a blessing and a curse for the power set.

    A blessing in that it's stupidly fun to see enemies lunge towards you only to be booted into the atmosphere by a well timed Force Detonation OR Force Blast.

    On the other hand, you can hinder the rest of the team in team content and even yourself if you knock hard enough. Although the option for Force Blast (Overwhelming Force advantage) would allow players to have the original version of Force Blast.

    Right. I agree 100%
    Like I said I’m (lil bit :P) like a kid with a new toy atm with Force, so, “Disruptive Force” was the only thing that gave me pause for like a hot second… and then it didn’t! And even if I didn't like it, like you said, there’s the option for the original, which I think is really great.

    Again, my hat’s off to you because: this is not just one power, but the entire framework, is very thorough and you didn’t discount the fact that this is a large player base & different people like different things. It’s a suggestion that, I feel would only benefit the set! :)
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,812 Arc User
    spordelia said:


    Right. I agree 100%
    Like I said I’m (lil bit :P) like a kid with a new toy atm with Force, so, “Disruptive Force” was the only thing that gave me pause for like a hot second… and then it didn’t! And even if I didn't like it, like you said, there’s the option for the original, which I think is really great.

    Again, my hat’s off to you because: this is not just one power, but the entire framework, is very thorough and you didn’t discount the fact that this is a large player base & different people like different things. It’s a suggestion that, I feel would only benefit the set! :)

    Thanks!
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,040 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    Yeah, force wall is a neat power. Unfortunately, it would also probably be absolutely amazing at breaking the game, NPC AI can't really deal with obstacles and the bump exploits for such a large object would also be awful.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,812 Arc User

    Yeah, force wall is a neat power. Unfortunately, it would also probably be absolutely amazing at breaking the game, NPC AI can't really deal with obstacles and the bump exploits for such a large object would also be awful.

    Yeah, hence why I said it would need adjusting. I could see it as a dual power AoE Containment + Pet Damage Shield thingy. If such a thing were possible.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    I don't see Force Wall ever being a viable idea. Not as an actual collision barrier.
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