test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Devastator

squirrelloidsquirrelloid Posts: 869 Arc User
edited March 2016 in Suggestions Box
@kaiserin

At first it was just unnecessarily splashing fire damage into HW attacks, but the proposed PTS version of devastator is apparently trying to force fire down our throats. Which seems unnecessary given the Rockstar is already a fire/HW AT.

The current Devastator looks like this:
EB - Bludgeon
1 - Cleave
6 - Eruption
8 - Unstoppable
11 - Decimate
14 - Enrage
17 - Skewer or Skullcrusher
21 - Guard
25 - Arc of Ruin
30 - Aggressor
35 - Vicious Descent or Earthsplitter
40 - Brimstone

The PTS version looks like this:
EB: Bludgeon
Level 1: Cleave
Level 6: Unstoppable
Level 8: Arc of Ruin
Level 11: Vicious Descent or Decimate
Level 14: Enrage
Level 17: Skewer or Skullcrusher
Level 21: Guard
Level 25: Thermal Reverberation
Level 30: Earth Splitter or Eruption
Level 35: Aggressor
Level 40: Brimstone

Despite the extra (non)choice, this is actually a far worse build for leveling, and the EU will be useless for most Devastators even at 40. (Even with the off-chance they actually do spend advantage points to proc clinging flames, they won't need the energy because of Enrage + Unstoppable knock-based energy returns).

Let's be brutally honest about some things here:
A. Cleave is a terrible power. It would need its damage ~doubled to make anyone bother to use it after level 17 in either the live build or the PTS build. It's that bad. The Clinging Flames proc doesn't save it - requires 3 taps of cleave, and clinging flames deals miniscule damage and returns miniscule energy with TR. The Great Power advantage should be renamed Great Joke until such time as it provides a bonus which is actually relevant and adds more damage *at any level* than just taking R3. (Not that anyone would waste advantage points on cleave).

B. Earth Splitter is a terrible power for characters solely in the HW framework because *its not melee*.

C. Skullcrusher is just worse than Skewer. Same melee AoE, near the same base damage, skewer gets a marginally better 1pt advantage damage boost if you're full charging, and on live Skullcrusher costs 20% less on tap but ~33% more on full charge. (The skewer cost increase on pts is not the right solution. Either it doesn't matter, and skewer is still better, or it makes Skullcrusher better at *every* charge point rather than just potentially on tap). If you want to fix the discrepancy, *give skullcrusher bonus damage vs. knock-immune targets*. Even 15% would make this a real choice.

D. Eruption is the key engine of the Devastator. Moving it to level 30 ruins the whole AT, and making it part of a (false) choice suggests to new players that it isn't a critical power. (It stacks enrage, it gives energy returns from Unstoppable, it's literally the power that makes the AT run).

E. Thermal Reverb is totally useless here. It scales on End, it's rec scaling is terrible, and Devastators will have to throw advantage points away to even hope to create clinging flames stacks on powers they'll actually want to use. Nor do Devastators really need an EU - Eruption will literally fill your energy bar.

-----------------------

Now, let's talk about core functionality.

Eruption - energy engine w/ Enrage and Unstoppable, which scales on Str + Rec and Rec, respectively. Tap power.

Arc of Ruin - Crushing damage debuffer w/ No Quarter advantage and applies disorient, mostly used on tap.

Skewer - single-target / boss killer. (It's AoE is so tiny that you'll be lucky to hit several targets most of the time).

Brimstone - PBAoE trash killer

Any rebuild of Devastator needs to accomodate those realities, or provide equivalent functional powers.

------------------------

The PTS rebuild fails for leveling:
-Cleave is literally your only locked-in power that stacks enrage until level 30, deals basically no damage, and even then is only a *chance per swing* to stack enrage (only guaranteed on the third swing). That pretty much kills the core mechanics of devastator (enrage/unstoppable and hitting like a truck).
-The skewer cost increase hits leveling toons especially hard, because they have less energy. Note that Skullcrusher is already similarly costly. Even if we consider this a real choice, neither is a viable power at level 17 with the PTS changes.

-------------------------

So let's talk about a real rebuild:

EB - Bludgeon
1 - Cleave (I don't honestly expect they'll remove it from the AT, and i guess its useable in the tutorial)
6 - Eruption
8 - Unstoppable
11 - Decimate or Vicious Descent (I mean, VD is a bad lunge, but why not)
14 - Enrage
17 - Skewer or *Annihilate* (this is the single target killer slot, so let's provide a real single target killer choice. Note that Annihilate is less e than Skullcrusher on full charge or the PTS version of Skewer... Also, gives Devastators who *choose to* more synergy with clinging flames).
21 - Guard
25 - Arc of Ruin
*30* - Brimstone (Why do we insist on making devastators wait so long for their only real AoE attack?)
35 - *Absorb Heat* or *Conviction* (Choice of self-heals, including the fire one for those who choose the clinging flames stuff and a concept-neutral non-fire one for those who don't. And since literally the only other thing you could put in this slot that would actually be useful is an AD, and this is not a tank AT...).
*40* - Aggressor (Quite honestly, it's a bad AO, and its only really useful for breaking holds)

----------------------------

So about those Skewer changes on the PTS
1. Don't
2. If it's going to be tier 3, it should deal damage like tier 3. Annihilate currently does about 20-25% more base dps than it, even adjusting for the .5s difference in charge/activation time (on full charge). And that's not even counting the bonus Annihilate gets against knock-immune targets.
3. It's Live energy costs are in-line with both Skullcrusher (trades off tap vs. charge energy for similar damage) and Annihilate (less energy for less damage, looks reasonably proportional). No reason to change its e-costs without changing its damage.

HW as a whole needs a dps boost across the board. It underperforms pretty much every powerset except telepathy. Direct or indirect (energy cost increases) nerfs to HW dps are not a solution.

-----------------------------

Edit: OMG you put a heal in a brawler AT!

1. I wanted a choice between something that cared about clinging flames and something that didn't
2. That something couldn't be TR, because TR is useless, and the only alternative would be MSA, which isn't in theme or theme-neutral.
3. That leaves Absorb Heat or the elemental ultimate
4. The alternate choice needs to be in a similar role and either brick-themed or theme neutral
5. Elemental ult vs. UR isn't a choice - you obviously take UR every single time. Also, then you'd really whine.
6. Thus a heal

And it's really not a big deal:
1. It's ~700 heal at R3. Devastators are low defense and have ~11000 hp. If you're really eating damage, that's like trying to hold back the ocean with your finger
2. Rockstars have a heal as a *tank*, which should be a bigger deal than this.

And finally, even if you stripped that out and put *2 random powers in*, that Devastator Build is still better than what's on PTS now. I was just trying to put something *actually useful* in.
Post edited by squirrelloid on

Comments

  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,056 Arc User

    @kaiserin

    At first it was just unnecessarily splashing fire damage into HW attacks, but the proposed PTS version of devastator is apparently trying to force fire down our throats. Which seems unnecessary given the Rockstar is already a fire/HW AT.

    The current Devastator looks like this:
    EB - Bludgeon
    1 - Cleave
    6 - Eruption
    8 - Unstoppable
    11 - Decimate
    14 - Enrage
    17 - Skewer or Skullcrusher
    21 - Guard
    25 - Arc of Ruin
    30 - Aggressor
    35 - Vicious Descent or Earthsplitter
    40 - Brimstone

    The PTS version looks like this:
    EB: Bludgeon
    Level 1: Cleave
    Level 6: Unstoppable
    Level 8: Arc of Ruin
    Level 11: Vicious Descent or Decimate
    Level 14: Enrage
    Level 17: Skewer or Skullcrusher
    Level 21: Guard
    Level 25: Thermal Reverberation
    Level 30: Earth Splitter or Eruption
    Level 35: Aggressor
    Level 40: Brimstone

    Despite the extra (non)choice, this is actually a far worse build for leveling, and the EU will be useless for most Devastators even at 40. (Even with the off-chance they actually do spend advantage points to proc clinging flames, they won't need the energy because of Enrage + Unstoppable knock-based energy returns).

    Let's be brutally honest about some things here:
    A. Cleave is a terrible power. It would need its damage ~doubled to make anyone bother to use it after level 17 in either the live build or the PTS build. It's that bad. The Clinging Flames proc doesn't save it - requires 3 taps of cleave, and clinging flames deals miniscule damage and returns miniscule energy with TR. The Great Power advantage should be renamed Great Joke until such time as it provides a bonus which is actually relevant and adds more damage *at any level* than just taking R3. (Not that anyone would waste advantage points on cleave).

    B. Earth Splitter is a terrible power for characters solely in the HW framework because *its not melee*.

    C. Skullcrusher is just worse than Skewer. Same melee AoE, near the same base damage, skewer gets a marginally better 1pt advantage damage boost if you're full charging, and on live Skullcrusher costs 20% less on tap but ~33% more on full charge. (The skewer cost increase on pts is not the right solution. Either it doesn't matter, and skewer is still better, or it makes Skullcrusher better at *every* charge point rather than just potentially on tap). If you want to fix the discrepancy, *give skullcrusher bonus damage vs. knock-immune targets*. Even 15% would make this a real choice.

    D. Eruption is the key engine of the Devastator. Moving it to level 30 ruins the whole AT, and making it part of a (false) choice suggests to new players that it isn't a critical power. (It stacks enrage, it gives energy returns from Unstoppable, it's literally the power that makes the AT run).

    E. Thermal Reverb is totally useless here. It scales on End, it's rec scaling is terrible, and Devastators will have to throw advantage points away to even hope to create clinging flames stacks on powers they'll actually want to use. Nor do Devastators really need an EU - Eruption will literally fill your energy bar.

    -----------------------

    Now, let's talk about core functionality.

    Eruption - energy engine w/ Enrage and Unstoppable, which scales on Str + Rec and Rec, respectively. Tap power.

    Arc of Ruin - Crushing damage debuffer w/ No Quarter advantage and applies disorient, mostly used on tap.

    Skewer - single-target / boss killer. (It's AoE is so tiny that you'll be lucky to hit several targets most of the time).

    Brimstone - PBAoE trash killer

    Any rebuild of Devastator needs to accomodate those realities, or provide equivalent functional powers.

    ------------------------

    The PTS rebuild fails for leveling:
    -Cleave is literally your only locked-in power that stacks enrage until level 30, deals basically no damage, and even then is only a *chance per swing* to stack enrage (only guaranteed on the third swing). That pretty much kills the core mechanics of devastator (enrage/unstoppable and hitting like a truck).
    -The skewer cost increase hits leveling toons especially hard, because they have less energy. Note that Skullcrusher is already similarly costly. Even if we consider this a real choice, neither is a viable power at level 17 with the PTS changes.

    -------------------------

    So let's talk about a real rebuild:

    EB - Bludgeon
    1 - Cleave (I don't honestly expect they'll remove it from the AT, and i guess its useable in the tutorial)
    6 - Eruption
    8 - Unstoppable
    11 - Decimate or Vicious Descent (I mean, VD is a bad lunge, but why not)
    14 - Enrage
    17 - Skewer or *Annihilate* (this is the single target killer slot, so let's provide a real single target killer choice. Note that Annihilate is less e than Skullcrusher on full charge or the PTS version of Skewer... Also, gives Devastators who *choose to* more synergy with clinging flames).
    21 - Guard
    25 - Arc of Ruin
    *30* - Brimstone (Why do we insist on making devastators wait so long for their only real AoE attack?)
    35 - *Absorb Heat* or *Conviction* (Choice of self-heals, including the fire one for those who choose the clinging flames stuff and a concept-neutral non-fire one for those who don't. And since literally the only other thing you could put in this slot that would actually be useful is an AD, and this is not a tank AT...).
    *40* - Aggressor (Quite honestly, it's a bad AO, and its only really useful for breaking holds)

    ----------------------------

    So about those Skewer changes on the PTS
    1. Don't
    2. If it's going to be tier 3, it should deal damage like tier 3. Annihilate currently does about 20-25% more base dps than it, even adjusting for the .5s difference in charge/activation time (on full charge). And that's not even counting the bonus Annihilate gets against knock-immune targets.
    3. It's Live energy costs are in-line with both Skullcrusher (trades off tap vs. charge energy for similar damage) and Annihilate (less energy for less damage, looks reasonably proportional). No reason to change its e-costs without changing its damage.

    HW as a whole needs a dps boost across the board. It underperforms pretty much every powerset except telepathy. Direct or indirect (energy cost increases) nerfs to HW dps are not a solution.

    -----------------------------

    Edit: OMG you put a heal in a brawler AT!

    1. I wanted a choice between something that cared about clinging flames and something that didn't
    2. That something couldn't be TR, because TR is useless, and the only alternative would be MSA, which isn't in theme or theme-neutral.
    3. That leaves Absorb Heat or the elemental ultimate
    4. The alternate choice needs to be in a similar role and either brick-themed or theme neutral
    5. Elemental ult vs. UR isn't a choice - you obviously take UR every single time. Also, then you'd really whine.
    6. Thus a heal

    And it's really not a big deal:
    1. It's ~700 heal at R3. Devastators are low defense and have ~11000 hp. If you're really eating damage, that's like trying to hold back the ocean with your finger
    2. Rockstars have a heal as a *tank*, which should be a bigger deal than this.

    And finally, even if you stripped that out and put *2 random powers in*, that Devastator Build is still better than what's on PTS now. I was just trying to put something *actually useful* in.

    ^
    Agreed. I mean, Its been said a multitude of ways and times that HW is a meh melee set. I mean, its slow as hell, and hits like a toothpick. Aesthetically, hitting with a big weapon requires more end, sure, and in that Skewer could cost more, but then again: None of the other HW powers do.(This is NOT an invitation to make every power an end hog in HW). Devastator was my first 40 as a gold waaay back when I first played this game, but now, I stick solely to FF. Sometimes for reasons like these(Devastator is gonna have a..very difficult time). Im not a fan of turning a set into something else to meet demands of either an AT or..who knows what else.
    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

    42 40s, LTSer.
  • squirrelloidsquirrelloid Posts: 869 Arc User
    Based on the new Eruption changes, I have a new progression for Devastator that acknowledges how it'll actually play with the changes, and make leveling less painful.

    EB-Bludgeon
    1-Cleave
    6-Unstoppable
    8-Enrage
    11-Decimate or Vicious Descent
    14-Brimstone
    17-Arc of Ruin
    21-Guard
    25-Whatever, won't get used (unless its a heal).
    30-Whatever, won't get used
    35-Whatever, won't get used
    40-Aggressor

    Welcome to your 'new and improved' HW Brawler AT: the moving fire cloud. I hope that's what everyone had in mind for their HW toon.

    (It's what the current redone progression will end up as, except you'll have to get to 40 for Brimstone, the only power that actually works well, and leveling to that will be a long and painful process that will make you wonder why you spent money on this AT. So i figured we might as well throw Devastators a bone and let them actually play before level 40).

    Not serious, but then, I can't believe the proposed changes to skewer and eruption are serious either.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    It's an archetype. Archetypes all have what some people would call redundant powers. Stop with that @dev nonsense, it's just gonna make them ignore you.
  • squirrelloidsquirrelloid Posts: 869 Arc User
    spinnytop said:

    It's an archetype. Archetypes all have what some people would call redundant powers. Stop with that @dev nonsense, it's just gonna make them ignore you.

    It's an archetype that was working perfectly fine before they started wrecking HW powers.

    And redundant powers are fine - i don't even care that my current Devastator has Decimate and Vicious Descent. I actually use Vicious Descent occasionally just because i can.

    Even with a couple redundant powers, Devastator was one of the best designed ATs in the game, with good energy management, fun playstyle, and a use for most of its powers even at 40. (You ended up with two you could remove from your powerbar - Vicious Descent/Earthsplitter and Cleave).

    Making most of the AT builds non-functional because you want to totally change how powers work on something *people spent money on* is terrible business, and verges on a bait-and-switch. And its totally unnecessary to hamfistedly re-theme the entire AT.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User

    It's an archetype that was working perfectly fine before they started wrecking HW powers.

    And it is an archetype that will still be working perfectly fine after they're done changing HW powers.
Sign In or Register to comment.