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Problem with the OPP Capstone: Shatter Strike
mirrorballs
Member Posts: 877 Bounty Hunter
In terms of PvP, yes. Oppressor is more capable than people realize and needs more attention. Tested out my setup in recent fights at NCL. It works even at premade level -- popsicles are popsicles whether they be PuG or premades. Been receiving complaints from some of the more renowned guild's members, as well as trading on-the-field banter from some of them, so in PvP this definitely has potential.
The thing is, in terms of PvE, as most people in this forum seems to be interested in, it's still no contest to the SS CWs.
Dungeon/elite grade mobs are highly CC-resistant. Even so -- I can still control and essentially neuter ONE of them down to a total stop. The others around them are disrupted in certain intervals, which is still more or less helpful, but certainly in this case the way how SS-CWs can just just vaporize them in a matter of seconds is more helpful to the team. But at least, it's manageable if they can be controlled even for a short time -- a good example being the 5-man HE fights in the EE vigilance quest zones.
................................
The problem with the current Oppressor path (or rather, to be "master of CCs"), is that to utilize its full potential it requires a total commitment to the CC aspect of the class, and that aspect only. It's a I'm a MoF/Opp build and usually I can't even use the nice MoF class features like Conflag or Swath, much less goodies like ChilliPres. It's just Orbosition/ArcPres all the way.
Sometimes if the team is well set-up (so that they don't need as much CCs for protection/ease of fighting) then I can switch some of the encounter choices and class features to more offensive ones... but if the team's that well prepared, then they really don't need that much CCs at all. Why use an Oppressor with a makeshift offensive setup? They can just bring in a SS CW and do a better job.
................................
So in a sense, the current NW PvE combat mechanics are in sort of a dilemma. If the mobs are too weak to CCs, then any SS CW can simply lock up the mobs and lay waste to them, so Oppressors aren't needed. It seemed that if the mobs are quite resistant to CCs then the Oppressor would be more popular... but now, it's TOO resistant... that even a fully CC-invested Opp can only permacontrol ONE of them and just disrupt the rest... so now, people think that since even a OPP CW can't perma-control NPC mobs anyway, then they might just as well go for damage.
................................
Now, all of the above may not be so terrible if there was some compensation against control-immune targets.. except there isn't. Even the dungeon/elite grade mobs can still be handled at least up to minimum levels of satisfactory performance, as described at the beginning. An Opp can help the team out somewhat by perma-controlling the most distressing mob(such as those that lay down AoEs frequently, or that crazy spinning White Dragon guy...) at the same time disrupting mobs around it with Icy Terrain. A nice AoE 10% damage debuff(Frigid Winds) with Icy Terrain and 5% HP flat damage from Shatter isn't bad at all since it repeats in short intervals...
...but mix a control-immune mob in the middle of it and that's where the shi* starts to fly.
IMO the problem is Shatter Strike, the Opp capstone. Firstly, it does flat 5% HP damage to a mob, but also limited to 300% wep damage (which is of course, a limitation with boss-fights in mind). This is actually not too bad, and more useful than you might think. So no problems there. Another feature is that the Chill stack duration is 2.5s longer. This is also not bad either.
But the problem is with the rest of the features....
■ Shatter → Shattered → 5s stun in PvE, 1s stun in PvP
IMO, this is a useless, crutch mechanic which is (probably) supposed to offer compensation for offense oriented/non-CC OPP builds, in which case you can freeze a target but lasts short... forexample; if a freeze from these OPP builds lasts for 3 seconds, "shattered" will happen approximately 1 sec after the initial freeze, so even if the freeze ends the stun will still go on for 3 more secs.
The problem is, nobody builds a DPS build with an OPP, because if you do, then there's essentially no advantage to gain at all. Your CCs are as short as a SS-CW's CC... so in essence you lose all meaning to build an OPP since you can't do more DPS than a SS-CW, nor can you even noticeably CC better than him. When you build for CCs, an OPP's freeze lasts for like 10 secs on a mob. Even on elite/dungeon grade mobs it lasts like 4.5~5.0 secs. So essentially, this stun is useless in PvE if you build a real OPP. In PvP, it lasts only 1s, so there's no point at all -- your freeze always lasts more than the shatter-stun, so there's no use for this at all. Long story short? It's useless and counter intuitive
■ control powers deal 100% more weapon damage against control-immune mobs
Aside from Ice Knife, which adds a prone, most of the control powers a CW has aren't really damaging at all. They're utility powers by definition, and while some of it can do at least medium damage, most are weak. Most control powers are encounters as well. In my case, for the "speed-casting" fast rotation setup I use TAB-EF/ Disintegrate / Shield / Icy Terrain. So with every EF and IT cast it deals 100% more weapon damage, except it only applies with initial activation and the subsequent damage from IT doesn't add that weapon damage.
Long story short: it doesn't help one bit against control-immune mobs, and this makes it living hell for OPP-CWs when it faces a large mob-group with a central 'boss' type control-immune mob... even worse if that control-immune mob has ranged attacks. Guess what -- every normal lair-type quest falls under this category.
................................
SUGGESTIONS
It would be great if the two useless features above helped better with control immune targets, but not in the form of direct damage. IMO, if you want to build a real OPP, as a master of control, then the lack of damage and troubles coming from it should be a given variable into the fight. You gain all this power to control at the price of damage.
So then, IMO, the Shatter Strike capstone should mostly be about the debuffs, with a slight, slight increase for the damage factor.
#1 is a direct damage increase for PvE only. When you suppose a mob has 100k HP, 5% damage upon shattered only deals 5.0k damage, and this damage doesn't crit. It's a fixed damage, and against targets which huge HP pools like bosses, not only is the damage scaling stopped at the 300% weapon damage limit, it doesn't even fire off at all in the first place since shatter only happens with a successful freeze. It's whole mechanic is useless with CTRL-IMM mobs. Therefore, IMO, it can afford a damage increase with at least the mobs that can be frozen. Against CTRL-IMM mobs, #2 and #3 are needed.
#2 is a suggestion that can have better effect in both PvP and PvE. Essentially the suggestion is to just give up the useless shatter-stun, and allow shatter-strike to give a bit more survivability to OPP CWs. If the 5% per stack is too excessive, it may be lowered to maybe 3%, in which case 6 stacks for a 18% dam debuff. The OPP may not be able to control bosses, but it can at least help the team survive by lowering the damage of the boss. Against multiple mobs, a shot of Icy Terrain on the right spot, coupled with Icy Veins feature, cmay instantly debuff mobs surrounding your tank.
#3 is a suggestion that straight increases the usefulness of the OPP in PvE environment with CTRL-IMM targets. Each shot of encounter attack landing will deal a 5% resist debuff. Stacks for 3 for a max 15% DR debuff for 8 secs. Shouldn't mean anything for the OPP with pathetic damage, but at least could provide a damage boost for the team when fighting bosses or tough elites.
So, in a nutshell:
1. Little more straight shatter-damage against mobs that can be frozen
2. A bit of team survivability boost with chill stacks
3. A bit of team DPS boost boost when fighting CTRL-IMM mobs.
The thing is, in terms of PvE, as most people in this forum seems to be interested in, it's still no contest to the SS CWs.
Dungeon/elite grade mobs are highly CC-resistant. Even so -- I can still control and essentially neuter ONE of them down to a total stop. The others around them are disrupted in certain intervals, which is still more or less helpful, but certainly in this case the way how SS-CWs can just just vaporize them in a matter of seconds is more helpful to the team. But at least, it's manageable if they can be controlled even for a short time -- a good example being the 5-man HE fights in the EE vigilance quest zones.
................................
The problem with the current Oppressor path (or rather, to be "master of CCs"), is that to utilize its full potential it requires a total commitment to the CC aspect of the class, and that aspect only. It's a I'm a MoF/Opp build and usually I can't even use the nice MoF class features like Conflag or Swath, much less goodies like ChilliPres. It's just Orbosition/ArcPres all the way.
Sometimes if the team is well set-up (so that they don't need as much CCs for protection/ease of fighting) then I can switch some of the encounter choices and class features to more offensive ones... but if the team's that well prepared, then they really don't need that much CCs at all. Why use an Oppressor with a makeshift offensive setup? They can just bring in a SS CW and do a better job.
................................
So in a sense, the current NW PvE combat mechanics are in sort of a dilemma. If the mobs are too weak to CCs, then any SS CW can simply lock up the mobs and lay waste to them, so Oppressors aren't needed. It seemed that if the mobs are quite resistant to CCs then the Oppressor would be more popular... but now, it's TOO resistant... that even a fully CC-invested Opp can only permacontrol ONE of them and just disrupt the rest... so now, people think that since even a OPP CW can't perma-control NPC mobs anyway, then they might just as well go for damage.
................................
Now, all of the above may not be so terrible if there was some compensation against control-immune targets.. except there isn't. Even the dungeon/elite grade mobs can still be handled at least up to minimum levels of satisfactory performance, as described at the beginning. An Opp can help the team out somewhat by perma-controlling the most distressing mob(such as those that lay down AoEs frequently, or that crazy spinning White Dragon guy...) at the same time disrupting mobs around it with Icy Terrain. A nice AoE 10% damage debuff(Frigid Winds) with Icy Terrain and 5% HP flat damage from Shatter isn't bad at all since it repeats in short intervals...
...but mix a control-immune mob in the middle of it and that's where the shi* starts to fly.
IMO the problem is Shatter Strike, the Opp capstone. Firstly, it does flat 5% HP damage to a mob, but also limited to 300% wep damage (which is of course, a limitation with boss-fights in mind). This is actually not too bad, and more useful than you might think. So no problems there. Another feature is that the Chill stack duration is 2.5s longer. This is also not bad either.
But the problem is with the rest of the features....
■ Shatter → Shattered → 5s stun in PvE, 1s stun in PvP
IMO, this is a useless, crutch mechanic which is (probably) supposed to offer compensation for offense oriented/non-CC OPP builds, in which case you can freeze a target but lasts short... forexample; if a freeze from these OPP builds lasts for 3 seconds, "shattered" will happen approximately 1 sec after the initial freeze, so even if the freeze ends the stun will still go on for 3 more secs.
The problem is, nobody builds a DPS build with an OPP, because if you do, then there's essentially no advantage to gain at all. Your CCs are as short as a SS-CW's CC... so in essence you lose all meaning to build an OPP since you can't do more DPS than a SS-CW, nor can you even noticeably CC better than him. When you build for CCs, an OPP's freeze lasts for like 10 secs on a mob. Even on elite/dungeon grade mobs it lasts like 4.5~5.0 secs. So essentially, this stun is useless in PvE if you build a real OPP. In PvP, it lasts only 1s, so there's no point at all -- your freeze always lasts more than the shatter-stun, so there's no use for this at all. Long story short? It's useless and counter intuitive
■ control powers deal 100% more weapon damage against control-immune mobs
Aside from Ice Knife, which adds a prone, most of the control powers a CW has aren't really damaging at all. They're utility powers by definition, and while some of it can do at least medium damage, most are weak. Most control powers are encounters as well. In my case, for the "speed-casting" fast rotation setup I use TAB-EF/ Disintegrate / Shield / Icy Terrain. So with every EF and IT cast it deals 100% more weapon damage, except it only applies with initial activation and the subsequent damage from IT doesn't add that weapon damage.
Long story short: it doesn't help one bit against control-immune mobs, and this makes it living hell for OPP-CWs when it faces a large mob-group with a central 'boss' type control-immune mob... even worse if that control-immune mob has ranged attacks. Guess what -- every normal lair-type quest falls under this category.
................................
SUGGESTIONS
It would be great if the two useless features above helped better with control immune targets, but not in the form of direct damage. IMO, if you want to build a real OPP, as a master of control, then the lack of damage and troubles coming from it should be a given variable into the fight. You gain all this power to control at the price of damage.
So then, IMO, the Shatter Strike capstone should mostly be about the debuffs, with a slight, slight increase for the damage factor.
1. Change the shatter damage to
7.5% of HP / 500% weapon damage in PvE (same 5% / 300% weap.dam. for PvP)2. Remove the shatter-stun effect.
Change it into a damage debuff that applies with chill stacks -- 5% per stack3. Change the 100% weapondamage bonus with ctrl powers used against CTRL-IMM targets, into
a 5% damage resist debuff on encounter use, stacks for 3, refreshes and lasts for 8 with each stack
#1 is a direct damage increase for PvE only. When you suppose a mob has 100k HP, 5% damage upon shattered only deals 5.0k damage, and this damage doesn't crit. It's a fixed damage, and against targets which huge HP pools like bosses, not only is the damage scaling stopped at the 300% weapon damage limit, it doesn't even fire off at all in the first place since shatter only happens with a successful freeze. It's whole mechanic is useless with CTRL-IMM mobs. Therefore, IMO, it can afford a damage increase with at least the mobs that can be frozen. Against CTRL-IMM mobs, #2 and #3 are needed.
#2 is a suggestion that can have better effect in both PvP and PvE. Essentially the suggestion is to just give up the useless shatter-stun, and allow shatter-strike to give a bit more survivability to OPP CWs. If the 5% per stack is too excessive, it may be lowered to maybe 3%, in which case 6 stacks for a 18% dam debuff. The OPP may not be able to control bosses, but it can at least help the team survive by lowering the damage of the boss. Against multiple mobs, a shot of Icy Terrain on the right spot, coupled with Icy Veins feature, cmay instantly debuff mobs surrounding your tank.
#3 is a suggestion that straight increases the usefulness of the OPP in PvE environment with CTRL-IMM targets. Each shot of encounter attack landing will deal a 5% resist debuff. Stacks for 3 for a max 15% DR debuff for 8 secs. Shouldn't mean anything for the OPP with pathetic damage, but at least could provide a damage boost for the team when fighting bosses or tough elites.
So, in a nutshell:
1. Little more straight shatter-damage against mobs that can be frozen
2. A bit of team survivability boost with chill stacks
3. A bit of team DPS boost boost when fighting CTRL-IMM mobs.
Post edited by mirrorballs on
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Comments
I agree 100%. This is the dilemma that CWs face, and there seems to be little sympathy for it. Every non-CW on this forum complains that CWs should be about control, not damage, yet we're the only class in the entire game where the more challenging mobs are completely immune to what should be our domain: Crowd Control.
And you hit the nail on the head. The weak mobs that can be locked down by CC are also weak enough they can be quickly blown up, no need for extra CC duration to control them. And the strong mobs that you WANT to CC have such high resistance, CC is a weak choice so...you should DPS them down. And then with CC having NO effect on bosses, what's the point?
So I like your suggestions. I also agree that some components to CC that disrupts boss mobs, too. I like the idea of the Oppressor Capstone providing some pretty substantial debuffs to bad guys, CC immune or not. That alone would make a compelling case for going full Oppressor.
And I think if some of the feats in the tree get tweaked to add a little more "bite" to an Oppressor, there's some potential there.
For example, I think Alacrity should reduce the CD of all control powers, and maybe reduce it to .4/.8/1.2/1.6/2 seconds. Improve Controlled Momentum to 2/4/6/8/10% bonus damage. Glacial Movement should give all powers that add Chill a 10/20/30/40/50% chance to add an additional stack.
And adding in something that gives all the Chill Stacking powers the ability to freeze (instead of just RoF and IT) would be a welcome addition to the Oppressor path as well.
And then I just switched from Opp to Ren one week ago, just after the SS nerf.
Reading the forum, and Ironzerg post, I thought myself why not give a shot, basically I just switched from Opp -> Thau to Ren -> Opp path.
People saying the nerf is an opportunity to think about the Opp builds are wrong, this change just sent the SS Opp dps even lower in the abysses.
Question is MoF or SS, maybe.
With the the same encouters loaded, I do not notice any perceptible loss in CC functionality, I just notice damage has greatly improved, even with the SS nerf hit.