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dubocide
Member Posts: 12 Arc User
So, I'm lvl 60 with a gs of 10k and i must say that besides the one daily quest from the PvP guy that only requires you to win 1 match of PvP i refuse to touch it. I'm tired of being killed in one shot or dazed and being killed in 2 or 3 by rogues. Granted it would help if I had any PvP gear but then to get some it would require days of doing PvP. And of course PvP gear isn't available to buy by normal means ether.
PvP is by far my least favorite part of this game so far, the rest of the game is mostly really cool. So until rogues are nerfed during PvP or PvP gear magically appears in my inventory I won't enjoy it at all. Also any info on how to kill a rogue probly won't be helpful since half of the time I don't they are their and running away from them doesn't stop them from (mostly) killing me instantly :mad::(
PvP is by far my least favorite part of this game so far, the rest of the game is mostly really cool. So until rogues are nerfed during PvP or PvP gear magically appears in my inventory I won't enjoy it at all. Also any info on how to kill a rogue probly won't be helpful since half of the time I don't they are their and running away from them doesn't stop them from (mostly) killing me instantly :mad::(
Post edited by dubocide on
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We don't have IWD on Xbox yet.
-ASYLUM-
-ASYLUM-
So they should nerf the class because you lack the stomach to grind out glory and buy PvP gear like everyone else had to?
Or the devs should just give you some gear for free because it's hard?
PvP is not for everyone. It is sometimes downright brutal. If you don't like it, don't play it, simple as that.
No. Its the fact that rogues are over powered. It wouldn't be bad if they didn't one shot me. Even the other classes don't kill me that easy. Im just stating that rogues have a unfair advantage in PvP that makes me and other people not want to play....besides are u afraid of a little challenge if rogues got nerfed?
so you think it is ok to keep a class that has high survivality skills (dodges, stealth, higher deflection severity, itc as a cc breaker) to have insane dps, cc duration, feats that make their dps ignores completely your enemy's dr and tenacity?
lol.
if you think so, should change the name of the game to trickster rogue online.
DENIAL
azuosed... I'm disappointed. We've exchanged a bunch of posts, and you should know very well by now that that is definitely NOT my position, at all. Never has been. In fact, I've gone on record multiple times stating that I support RESPONSIBLE efforts to balance PvP and to balance TR. The problem is that 99% of the PvP complaints are childish, emotional and ignorant. There are some intelligent PvP discussions around, but they tend to get buried under the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Trollish rhetoric that does absolutely nothing to add clarity to the issue. Maybe it helps you feel a little bit better about yourself to imagine me in that way, but you are dead wrong.
I'm going to make another thread dedicated to RESPONSIBLE discussions for balancing PvP, and going forward just link to it instead of responding in detail to posts like yours. At the end of the day, it is idiotic to expect people to take you seriously if your position is:
I agree, but yet we still see those people all the time
< Goon Squad >
the thing is. this is a mmo. I consider myself a hardcore pvp. i played this game for a long time on pc at the highest level. But you cannot expect everyone else to be a hardcore pvpers. Actually, this is a game and PvP actually should be enjoyable to just everyone, not only hardcore pvpers.
except when a player is queing against someone much more experienced, geared, or premades, PvP should be balanced and fair for everyone. And this is not what is going on because of one class that is completely dominating the PvP, and there is only one class capable off efficient counter that same class (hr), and one third class that is just loved anyway because everyone love to get heals (obvious).
If you have interest in level a new character, I would suggest you to level make new character during the incoming xp event, and tell me your low level experience. It will be funny the quantity of new TRs and HRs breeding in the low lvl pc because of players that got frustrated with the performance of other classes in PvP.
My point is, on the low level pvp, if a low lvl pvp q against a same pvp lvl character, the game will still not be enjoyable at most of the time if that person is not a TR and is queing against one.
The same thing is true on the high level pvp (unless you are a HR because you can actually root the hell of tr and has a chance to fight back).
Don't get me wrong, I can actually fight some trs, specially the stun lock ones, and I can win some. But I suspect these I can beat really really BAD.
After all, it does not need a lot of brains to do this against my GWF using any TR, and it does not even require a great gear to do that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wA3OIyFylHY. Now this thing I experienced, it is experienced by other players as well, and specially casual pvpers. PvP should be enjoyable for anyone in any level you see. That is why these people will also complain, and they have the right to do so.
Of course, some people only complain and will never get any better, of course some people complain even when things are balanced. But look around, at least myself, when I q for pvp, most of the time my team gets 2 trs and the same is true for my enemy team. This clearly shows how the game needs to be worked. And this is not even a matter much of pvp gear against TRs. have I told you how their feats/skills ignore Tenacity damage resistance;)?
The GWF on the video being melted in basically two shots is mine. For the record, on that video I was using a super tanky instance (about 45~47k hp), 4.2k+ defense, 23% tenacity resistance, sentinel build which gives me 40~80% DR when I use my unstoppable. about 50% deflection chance. Now tell me when I ever had an opportunity to have a chance to try to use my "pvp skills" in that fight?.
And then watch so called "pvpers" guilds rolling using comps of three, sometimes 4 TRs in premades and claiming to be the best pvp. On PC, those people were considered to be jokes by common sense between everyone in the game.
The thing is, TRs were always a class for skilled players since mod 1. It is really sad what they done to the class as now almost anyone with just the basics on pvp can perform great if playing the class, and that is why you see more and more TRs being created by both hardcore and softcore pvpers. I don't think a class should have that high damage + that armor piercing abilities that ignore even tenacity and also the amount of survival skills that it already has.
The thing is, the cry of the low level pvpers is legit at that point.
DENIAL
read above about my gear and some other gears. Gear helps, but trs are the lowest dependent class of gear because their feats ignore dr/tenacity. They basically hit you as if you are a mob.
Even outgearing a TR for thousands of gearscore, he still melts me even if I am super tanky.
It is not a gearscore problem. They are outplaying everyone gear or no gear involved.
DENIAL
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that GS was the problem. My point was that pay 2 win is the problem ( hence you will never see a real fix ). And the easiest/best class to pick if you want to cheese it up in pvp are rogues. I support what you say in that they are easier to gear. This goes hand in hand with the pay to win concept and milking the class for $$$. By design. Not changing, I guess that my point. At least not radically.
Yes, and no. I consider PvP to be the true end-game. It should be more challenging competing against other living, thinking, grinding players than it is to go against programmed bosses. I don't expect everyone to be a hardcore PvPer, nor does the game provide any real compelling reason for everyone to try and be one.
However I have a problem with the suggestion that somehow the gameplay of hardcore and casual players be the same.
Think of it this way. I've made a decision to try and improve my PvP game. In order to do that, I've had to:
That's a trade-off that I accept. I am not going to top the paingiver boards any time soon. I am not going to be as rich or geared as most of the PvErs out there. C'est la vie. BUT please understand if I am less than sympathetic to those who do NOTHING to try and be competitive for PvP complaining about how ineffective they are at PvP. There's a reason they have problems that goes way beyond any class mechanics.
That's the thing and I've been saying it a lot. The whole PvP framework is unbalanced. The hypothetical scenario of queing against equally geared, equally skilled and equally organized/disorganized teams happens very rarely. PvP matches are incredibly random, and I truly believe that if you want to actually BREAK the cycle of nerf class x, followed by nerf class Y, followed by nerf class Z, you have to address the root cause and fix the framework.
I consider the PvP system of a game like LoL to be highly evolved (match-making, ranked play and ranked divisions, established meta-game). I played LoL for three seasons across three different accounts. I competed in the lowest division of Bronze through the highest division of Gold. I can tell you that 99% of the "Nerf this character" type comments came from the Bronze player-base and were almost non-existent in the Gold queues. I can tell you that certain characters who would absolutely pub-stomp in the Bronze queues (so-called god-tier characters) would be no where near as effective in the Gold queues. Gold players had a much better knowledge of the game, a much better knowledge of how characters worked, and a much better sense of team-oriented play, and these factors made so-called "broken, OP characters" somehow rather vanila.
Because of this experience, I am always hesitant to try and balance PvP based on the gameplay of low-level or inexperienced players. It seems completely backwards to me.
Thanks for sharing the video. In summary, you raced to attack an enemy, and got jumped by a stealthed TR once you got there. You then continued to chase your original target while the TR continued to attack you, until you finally got melted by a SoD.
The sequence of damage appeared to be:
A few things that caught my eye:
This is a known glitch, and is not working as intended. It basically caused SoD to hit you for twice the damage it should have. If this bug did not exist, that SoD proc would not have killed you. Most people I know frown upon using this exploit. It's a form of cheating, and pretty pathetic tbh.
Despite the fact that you were facing at least one exploit-using TR, you still seemed to win the game, and win by a lot.
Don't know as I've honestly never played against a comp like that. But again, there could be ways to fix team comp in the actual frameowrk of the system if that is a problem.
What certain guilds do or don't do, and the maturity of their members, while frustrating, is not really something you fix by nerfing a class.
Irrelevant to me. If you truly are interested in fair, balanced and enjoyable PvP for everyone, then actually lowering the skill-bar required to play a class actually helps that goal. If a class is playable only by twitch freaks, that doesn't exactly create the kind of accessible experience you claim to want.
I don't have an opinion one way or the other. I would rather just focus on the game than on the perceived skill or lack thereof required to play.
I tend to agree here, and have said as much in other posts. TRs seem to be a bit too well-rounded right now.
And I disagree here.
answering the first quote. It is a problem when after you done all those suggestion, in the end game there is still a broken class that make you feel like you wasted time. I think only warlocks probably have a worse feeling than GWFs. Honestly, I don't care if a class dominate pvp, it is fine. The problem is when this dominance does not give you a chance to fight back at all even if you are in the end game and has little or nothing more to improve.
2nd and 3rd quote: I agree and disagree. As I said, I am giving my opinion based on years playing pvp. I played on the best pvp guild on pc for while we were there, sharing the position at times with chocolate stand/lemonade stand, and I was considered at several times to be the best GWF of the server.
Here are some videos of us playing pvp there:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njjWfW5tFg4
you will see, if you watch the video entirely, you will see there is sometimes I 1 v 1 the other guild trs (pretty much both running perfects and equal gear, and you will see it is far more balanced than it is now).
On mod 3, they buffed GWF beyond too good. They gave way too much dps to the class and did not mess with the drs. They gave way too many prones, and GWF was so powerful that everyone started to make one(like trs nowadays). I was a player of that class since mod 1, and I complained of it and asked for balance. I did not defend gwfs even though there were tons of new gwf players giving excuses and having many of the same talk here :"you need gear, you need train, you need to practice, on end game is balanced"" because these were all lies and they were afraid to be nerfed. Eventually we did get nerf, but I think they nerfed more than required, but was still ok.
4th quote: Yes, except that the same thing happens despite the glitch being used or not, only takes less damage.
We won because these guys were noobs that care for kills. When fighting a good tr that understands domination, the points better than killing, it is a huge problem. Watch this other video on 1 x 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iCcrLVRJeQ .the guy had a vorpal on. Now look when I hit my sequence: come and get it, and frontline surge (prone). By the time I use my last encounter he was already stand up and going away. That means, my best CC skill is 18 seconds, and it doesn't even cc my target long enough so I can attack (and to clarify, I showed this video because I used restoring strike in the last rotation, which is a fast cast encounter for GWFs and does decent damage, I run with IBS most of the time though). Now, watch how much my hp dropped while I was on unstoppable. That was a sentinel unstoppable that is supposed to give me 80% DR. In my opinion, I conclude that the problem is giving armor pen feats/skills for TRs. They should have to stack darks for armor pen just as everyone else, and not have it passively... This is so broken because according to pc friends, it is even bypassing tenacity. There are people on pc complaining that even on mod 6 (though they nerfed SoD, dazed) that TRs are still hitting over 70k on a high DR GF...
last quote. some yes, some not I would say.
DENIAL
Lack of counterplay is to me the biggest red flag. We can niggle on the particular mechanics, but if TRs truly dominate end-game like they do the early PUGs then I have to agree with you. There should ALWAYS be counterplay.
I have opinions based on a month of gametime. Take them with a grain of salt.
But I do have objective-based PvP experience from other games. My take on the TR debate, put simply: I don't believe that "balance" means every class should have an equally good chance of beating any other class. I think different classes have different roles to play in objective based PvP. It doesn't make sense to me if someone says that a game isn't balanced if a tank-class can't put up the same KDA as an assassin class. But I do believe in some sort of rock-paper-scissors metagame; and I definitely believe in a game where a balanced mix comp team where everyone is playing their roles right should absolutely destroy an unbalanced team comp. I don't know if NW is or even wants to be that kind of game.
You make me want to go back and play Executioner again. :rolleyes:
I really don't know what the right way to balance out TRs is. It might be removing piercing, but I would bet that wouldn't come close to stopping the complaining. Scoundrels are imo probably the most obnoxious TR build out there, and they have zero piercing powers/feats (unless they run MI and slot Shocking Execution). They will however CC you all day long.
I've always questioned the high deflect. The TR dodge is already crazy good. You would think if a TR failed to dodge, he should get smacked. And a tank, without a dodge, should at least depend on all that armor to help deflect some of the damage.
I agree that "balance" do not necessary means that all classes should be equal. It goes back to what I said about I am fine with one or two class dominating the pvp more. It is just bad when there is no counter.
I suspect that removing the armor pen feats would balance a little bit for two reasons:
One, it would not harm the TR as much against low dr classes. But would give more chance of GFs and GWFs fight back. They have a high dps, and I agree it makes sense for the class. Trs have always been like that, and they were always on the top of the pvp chain, occasionally sharing the position with GF or GWFs. but they are not only dominating now, but they are killing any chance of countering, cant even put up a fight..
They did nerfed SoD and dazed on mod 6. but for what I hear it made the game more balanced. I still reading some complaints of their armor pen features making them hit 70k on a high DR GF. ha.
What you mentioned about TRs and deflection. Imagine a GWF fighting a GOOD TR. First, it is hard to do something when they have stealth and dodges. Second, it is a problem when their deflection is too high with high deflection severity. There is nothing more frustrating in the world than finally time it enough to hit an IBS (best dps gwf skill) or a daily and it gets deflected and hits like 1~2k max.
about trs, the CC Tr is still good as the cc is too long. I can fight those trs a little better because unstoppable DO help me there. But again. TRs are just so good in this mod that basically all their paragons are playable.
Maybe the key to fix it wouldn't even be nerf TRs (though I think they should not pierce tenacity at least, this is just dumb). But buffs the other classes.
Before GWFs got nerfed, our ROAR could root our opponent. This was a GREAT tool to fight TRs. And I don't know why they nerfed that skill. It has a crappy dps and still like 11 seconds cooldown. Is not like we rooting everytime. They also removed the prone from takedown, only a shorter stun...
the devs on this game, idk about them...
DENIAL
LOL. I totally clicked on this forum by accident.
It's the same mindless defense we heard from PC rogues during Mod 5.
Don't worry, you guys will get crushed come Mod 6 lol.
< Goon Squad >
Now, am I OVERPOWERED in heals because I can self heal and regenerate HP almost as fast as you can take them from me?
-ASYLUM-
This. Oh yes
Okay....lets be real. A trapper HR and a CW (if the rogue is ****) MAYBE.
But when you can go invisible before I can hear you, then stun me for like 20 seconds while I get my butt kicked, yea.... in that regard I've no shot.
But if I can see you, it's 50/50 or 60/40 in favor of the TR due to their ridiculous Stam/Stealth regen.
i'd take HR out of that sentence because with the way stealth & dodge rolling works in this game we literally can't root a good TR. biting snares doesn't even activate half the time when i hit a rogue with CA a split second before he stealths. i have hit invisible rogues many times with hindering strike and unless the damage from the initial hit breaks their stealth bar they can't be rooted in stealth. this probably has to do with the fact that most good TRs are CONSTANTLY DODGING WHILE IN STEALTH and the hit isn't even connecting a lot of the time, but I have never been able to root a rogue that is still invisible after the hit. since roots are like 99% of our damage that means a good TR (hint hint famous permastealth executioner build) is literally unkillable 1v1 no matter what insane gear an HR has.
that's not to mention getting deflected when we do land hits on a good TR when he finally runs out of stealth + stamina or mis-times a dodge roll (which has an amazing amount of invincibility frames + distance). since deflect affects CC it means the roots instantly end and he just runs / dodges out of hindering strike range (our other main rooting move) and then rolls back into stealth shortly after.
yea...not a fair fight vs a GOOD TR that takes advantage of the automatic "impossible to catch" effect stealth + deflect + dodge rolling grants them (without even having to use the actual encounter impossible to catch).
until they give us that mod 6 bs where a TR reveals themselves shortly when attacking from stealth (which i have my doubts about being able to root them even if i hit them there) or lessen the invincibility frames from the dodge roll or make stealth more vulnerable to CC, it's certainly not a fair fight.
i've outplayed good TRs almost flawlessly and hit them with fox shift even when they've been in stealth for awhile because i predict where they will move-- and yet they still maintain their stealth. there's 0 punishment for getting hit in stealth right now especially when they can just shadow strike if you do somehow manage to break it and have a full stealth bar to do everything all over again.
i never wanted to jump on the bandwagon criticizing TRs but their stealth and dodge roll needs to be changed to be fair. i don't care about the damage or CC nearly as much as their defensive capabilities that they barely have to sacrifice anything for.
twitch.tv/xx_alucard
-ASYLUM-