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Tenacity is now broken as of NW.45.20150515a.3 (06-03-2015)
ralexinor
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
EDIT: this post is now no longer relevant as of the latest patch that will go live on 06-11-2015.
Thanks for the fast fix, Cryptic.
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Tenacity is now fully and utterly broken with this patch. It has upset the balance of PvP even more whereas before it was fragile enough. Class balance is out the window yet again, with TRs right up the top because of piercing damage, followed by GFs and GWFs, and then CWs and HRs and then SWs. OPs and DCs will be nigh unkillable again, now taking 40% less damage than before. Good job completely breaking the tanky classes and making them OP.
To sum it up:
With the combination of the first three points above, everyone with BiS gear (negation + 40.2% tenacity) now has 70% base DR. GFs have base 35-40% DR, which means they will now have 105-110% DR, meaning you need more than 30% RI after Armor Penetration Resistance in order to actually notice a damage increase from RI. 31% = 1% damage increase on a GF with 110% DR. So you need at least 111% RI to do 1% more damage.
Guess what? You need exactly 12375 Armor Penetration stat in order to get 110% RI (112.5 ARP = 1% RI). Then 112.5 points more for each 1% damage on only a few classes. Good luck if you don't have arp on your armor.
Now, on squishy classes (70% DR from negation + tenacity, then an additional 12% as class DR, so around 80-85% DR), you can only mitigate 12%, so you need 92% RSI to bring them down to 0% DR - even then, it's only a maximum of 10% damage increase.
For 92% RSI, you need 10350 Armor Penetration stat, for a 10% damage increase. This is a 1% damage increase per 1035 stat points. So good.
Critical damage. On classes where you can mitigate DR to 0, or at least mitigate a decent chunk of DR, critical strikes will do less damage than normal non-critical attacks. Let's say on a target with 40% Tenacity, 10 stacks of negation (30% DR) and 10% DR. You have 100% RI. Base damage is 10,000.
Normal non-crit attack:
10000 * (1 - 0.4 - 0.3 - 0.1 + (1 - 0.8)) = 10000 * 0.4 = 4000 damage
Normal crit attack:
10000 * (1 + 0.75) * (1 - 0.4 - 0.4 - 0.1 + (1 - 0.8)) = 17500 * 0.1 = 17500 * 0.2 = 3500 damage (note you cannot mitigate damage with DR by more than 80% (0.2))
Now, is this WAI or was this screwed up with the last patch, by making everything additive instead of just Armor Penetration Resistance? If this is WAI, please change it back to how it was, this is completely breaking some classes, especially ones that relied on crit, and making tanky classes like GF extremely overpowered and broken.
GG, Cryptic.
Classes and Balance
- General
- PVP: Armor Penetration Resistance now correctly works as expected against players.
- Tenacity: Armor Penetration Resistance is now multiplicative. Base Armor penetration resistance is now 20% to compensate.
- Tenacity: Damage Resistance and Critical Resistance from Tenacity are now correctly multiplicative.
Thanks for the fast fix, Cryptic.
----
Tenacity is now fully and utterly broken with this patch. It has upset the balance of PvP even more whereas before it was fragile enough. Class balance is out the window yet again, with TRs right up the top because of piercing damage, followed by GFs and GWFs, and then CWs and HRs and then SWs. OPs and DCs will be nigh unkillable again, now taking 40% less damage than before. Good job completely breaking the tanky classes and making them OP.
To sum it up:
- Negation is now additive to your DR whereas it was multiplicative before. This puts it on the same level as DR (though still not mitigatible), and puts people way past the damage reduction cap.
- Tenacity Damage Reduction is now additive to your DR whereas it was multiplicative before. This puts it on the same level as DR (though still not mitigatible), and puts people way past the damage reduction cap.
- Despite player feedback of changing Armor Penetration Resistance to not be at the ridiculous value of an additive 80%, the change still went ahead and now players are forced to stack more than 80% Resistance Ignored in order to notice a damage increase from RI.
- Critical Damage Resistance is now an additive damage reduction, which means all critical damage is now reduced by a total of 80%, non-mitigatible. The effectiveness of all crit damage is now 20%, and 10% on a deflect (5% on a TR just because).
With the combination of the first three points above, everyone with BiS gear (negation + 40.2% tenacity) now has 70% base DR. GFs have base 35-40% DR, which means they will now have 105-110% DR, meaning you need more than 30% RI after Armor Penetration Resistance in order to actually notice a damage increase from RI. 31% = 1% damage increase on a GF with 110% DR. So you need at least 111% RI to do 1% more damage.
Guess what? You need exactly 12375 Armor Penetration stat in order to get 110% RI (112.5 ARP = 1% RI). Then 112.5 points more for each 1% damage on only a few classes. Good luck if you don't have arp on your armor.
Now, on squishy classes (70% DR from negation + tenacity, then an additional 12% as class DR, so around 80-85% DR), you can only mitigate 12%, so you need 92% RSI to bring them down to 0% DR - even then, it's only a maximum of 10% damage increase.
For 92% RSI, you need 10350 Armor Penetration stat, for a 10% damage increase. This is a 1% damage increase per 1035 stat points. So good.
Critical damage. On classes where you can mitigate DR to 0, or at least mitigate a decent chunk of DR, critical strikes will do less damage than normal non-critical attacks. Let's say on a target with 40% Tenacity, 10 stacks of negation (30% DR) and 10% DR. You have 100% RI. Base damage is 10,000.
Normal non-crit attack:
10000 * (1 - 0.4 - 0.3 - 0.1 + (1 - 0.8)) = 10000 * 0.4 = 4000 damage
Normal crit attack:
10000 * (1 + 0.75) * (1 - 0.4 - 0.4 - 0.1 + (1 - 0.8)) = 17500 * 0.1 = 17500 * 0.2 = 3500 damage (note you cannot mitigate damage with DR by more than 80% (0.2))
Now, is this WAI or was this screwed up with the last patch, by making everything additive instead of just Armor Penetration Resistance? If this is WAI, please change it back to how it was, this is completely breaking some classes, especially ones that relied on crit, and making tanky classes like GF extremely overpowered and broken.
GG, Cryptic.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Edit: for those who read in Russian or know how to use google translate - http://habrahabr.ru/post/259607/ article about general mmo devs mistakes on working with players testing. point II.3 about negative feedback is exactly what is going on now in neverwinter.
small advice - lay back your pvp gear (right before pvp season lol) and enjoy some friday reading
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Now that all is on the same DR level/layer now, it's safe to assume Piercing Damage ignores everything and TRs are completely unaffected?
Correct... as one of those Trans Negation wearing 40% DR GFs I am getting rocked by Shocking (35-70K a hit).
Some of the best ideas have been conceived when being high as a kite. Personally I think they were all boozed up at the time...
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Just stack mad ammount of arp now.
WTB Class Reroll please
Sorry, I am confused with this line:
17500 * 0.1 = 17500 * 0.2 ???
I assume you mean 17500 * 0.1 + 17500 * 0.2
If it is, it does not give 3500. It gives 5250.
I am still able to dagger people to death on my TR that are using negation enchant (Killed several GWF and Clerics that where using negation while in stealth and throwing daggers).
I tried my GWF and it's a different story, I'm actually thinking about becoming more tanky and switching to Sentinel for PvP since this is occurring, since some classes like GWF, CW, SW and HR have been strongly affected by these changes with tenacity and DR.
I might even just farm GG coins with my Rogue and use my GWF for PvE since "Gcrush" has literally ****ed this up, yet again.
-Kymos
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TR
GF
Fix Negation, tone it down for PvP cause now it's too much together with tenacity. Makes enemies insanely tanky. And i mean it. It's insane.
Fix piercing damage from TR and make it respect tenacity.
Then, if needed, tenacity can be toned down a bit.
BTW, they managed to make Negation even more broken in PvP. You now tickle negation users. I lol'ed.
this has nothing more to do with PVP, its a ton of crappy design, so have fun playing more or less with same player all time, community fades away and the developper just ignores all arguments from player base ,
going there as warlock is nothing else than commit suicide, getting killed by passive procs from your enemy that doesn´t even take damage by putting dots on him, so poor designed, bravo cryptic you really need some professional help
However I think we are at a breaking point I my biggest suggestions are to:
1) Remove Tenacity as a stat on gear. PERIOD. However give ALL players a BASE equal to the MAX Tenacity players had. (40%). This allows for ANY gear to be used in PVP which I think is NEEDED because it creates a larger audience for PVE dungeons and gear. I dont think "tenacity" was a bad Idea, I think putting it on GEAR was though... Because it made a MAJOR divide between PVE and PVP.
2) Crit Resistance needs to be "reduces your crit severity by 40%. Meaning that 75% crit severity becomes 45% Severity and adding a P VORPAL would be (125*.6) = 75% Severity. Thus P vorpal counters the act of "crit resist" making for REGULAR crits.
3) Once that is done, negation needs to have both an "uptime" and "downtime" on the enchant. Multiple suggestions have been made about this. There are many options. All other enchants have a CD for a "downtime" aside from a few that are not THAT great anyways.
4) ARP Resistance needs to NOT be "additive" but rather multiplicative. What this means is:
PVP RI = Total RI (1-80%). Meaning that ARP in pvp is 500:1 however we all know 1% RI > 1% damage.
5) Wheel of Elements, Shadowy Opportunity, Shocking Execution NEED TO NOT BE PIERCING DAMAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Actually its NBD, I noticed literally no difference in my damage since yesterday. Whoever is posting this is probably over exaggerating a minor difference because they don't like doing any less damage. If I am doing less damage, I will run ACT to check, but if I am, it can't be less than 5-8% less...
You can't just post ACT, you need a control group and to explain your testing method. The only thing I see is that you are either hitting someone with feated DR, or wildly under-geared for testing anything about pvp. Please post testing method, and control group so we can see what you are talking about. As of yesterday most top pvp guilds have noticed really nothing... we tested inside and out and couldn't figure out if they did anything at all with tenacity... it looked like they just fixed a tooltip.
There are classes more or less effected by this. for example TR relaying on shadow execution or someone with Wheel
won't really see a difference. just as pick above - TR does 45% of outgoing damage with Shadow or CW with Wheel as example.
also you have to understand who and how is effected - for pug fight where people are running no or low tenancy - no problem at all -you will still be killing them and highly possible it will have 1-2 more encounters at all more.
Another case is pvp chars.
First of all now if you play against high DR players now with both tenancy and DR on same level - you are gonna do 5-10% damage effectiveness. Cause to get your arm pen doing more -more effectiveness - you now need to negate way more - 80% arm Pen resists, 40% DR from tenancy, Base DR of player and Negation.
In short you are gonna struggle even more to kill someone in pvp gear with negation unless you depend on piercing as before. What is even worse is that now Arm Pen is useless against geared player since he is gonna have 80% from gear already.
PS. this is act log from macjae. you can argue as much as you want but those people are BIS geared atm ) so I'd advice you redirect your questions to OP ) we can not post links to actual act file. I just quickly took some screenshots.
Tenacity only works on pvp and it should have a real effect on everyone's class. Do those tank or healer classes kill you? i guess not, so what u want is to have a safe and quick kill and having not fun at all?. Negation should actually be toned down and all piercing damage removed. But tenacity effects should stay as they are now.
As a healer i find everything working well, except for those piercing damage. I try to improve my DR so classes like CW, GWF, TR dont kill me fast, specially with their OP powers, and OP bonuses overall like lostmauth's vengeance.
The ACT file itself should be okay, just don't zip it.
Safe travels,
Archmage Zebular of Mystryl
PWE Community Moderator
[ RoC | ToS | Support ]
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
well, nothing personal, but 20% only damage? against DC ) try kill it. Look at the numbers above. This is CW vs GF vs TR fight. How often you see CW doing 20% damage or more?
Anyway this is nothing to do with Crit hit does less damage then regular as well as Arm Pen now useles below 80%. whole idea is bad in making it addictive.
No one objects if it would be multiplicative. Actually this is what people ask for - not to ruin game balance again.
http://www.megafileupload.com/Nho/Combatlog.Log
I do question if devs would pay attention to this