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Is this class even viable? (Not a rant, genuinely want to improve)
roderickzero
Member Posts: 1 Arc User
Hello.
I'm looking for advice, maybe someone more experienced can help.. Possible someone who mained this classed on PC before?
First, let me tell you a bit about my GF.
LVL 60, Half Elf.
Currently Rocking 27 CON 25 STR 17 DEX.
Wearing Full Grand Regent T2 Set with a bunch of R6 Azure on defense slots, a couple R7 for recovery and Dragon Hoard on all utility slots. (Armor with the a greater thunderhead chant)
Also using Ancient Longsword + Shield (Shield with R7 Azure and Sword with Greater plague fire chant)
Using Gemmed Slotted Shirt and pants with a couple R6 (Azure and Recovery again).
Using 2STR Belt (I know I know but the CON one is stupidly expensive and I dropped this one)
Accessories - Hyrmmir set (Need spell checking here)
Currently I have 37 AC, 17 Deflection Chance m 50% DR (Arround 5000def).
Companions.
Fire Archon, Panther, Assassin Drake, Pseudodragon, Ioun Stone (Blue one)
My GS fluctuates from 14878 to 15089.
Soo... Now let me tell you about my problem... I can run pretty much every dungeon just fine... Hell... With this tankier build I'm able to mitigate most of the damage that comes my way if not all of it... All in all... I was happy with my character... Reaching the end of a run with 10 kills and less than 500dmg didn't really bothered me... While my Archer friend had like 7mil damage and 70% of the kills
My problem started when I've tried to run Shores of Tuern on epic... Never in any game I felt so useless... The first time I run it we had this awesome cleric whose talent I recognized only when I tried to run it again without one...
First set of enemies after the start simply downed me in 1 sec... I didn't have time to react.... Thinking it was lag, I respawned (party had 03 rogues and those guys don't like ressing people) but again and again up to the point of the ambush I was dying in combat way to fast even with my shield up while the rogues and the CW health bar remained at 100%. The party finally decided to kick me and at that point it felt totally right because I was dragging the team behind... I was dead weight...
So... Some of you may say just learn to play... Yeah... that may be it... But may I be overlooking something? I'm new to this game but not to MMO is general.
Any advice will be appreciated.
Any
I'm looking for advice, maybe someone more experienced can help.. Possible someone who mained this classed on PC before?
First, let me tell you a bit about my GF.
LVL 60, Half Elf.
Currently Rocking 27 CON 25 STR 17 DEX.
Wearing Full Grand Regent T2 Set with a bunch of R6 Azure on defense slots, a couple R7 for recovery and Dragon Hoard on all utility slots. (Armor with the a greater thunderhead chant)
Also using Ancient Longsword + Shield (Shield with R7 Azure and Sword with Greater plague fire chant)
Using Gemmed Slotted Shirt and pants with a couple R6 (Azure and Recovery again).
Using 2STR Belt (I know I know but the CON one is stupidly expensive and I dropped this one)
Accessories - Hyrmmir set (Need spell checking here)
Currently I have 37 AC, 17 Deflection Chance m 50% DR (Arround 5000def).
Companions.
Fire Archon, Panther, Assassin Drake, Pseudodragon, Ioun Stone (Blue one)
My GS fluctuates from 14878 to 15089.
Soo... Now let me tell you about my problem... I can run pretty much every dungeon just fine... Hell... With this tankier build I'm able to mitigate most of the damage that comes my way if not all of it... All in all... I was happy with my character... Reaching the end of a run with 10 kills and less than 500dmg didn't really bothered me... While my Archer friend had like 7mil damage and 70% of the kills
My problem started when I've tried to run Shores of Tuern on epic... Never in any game I felt so useless... The first time I run it we had this awesome cleric whose talent I recognized only when I tried to run it again without one...
First set of enemies after the start simply downed me in 1 sec... I didn't have time to react.... Thinking it was lag, I respawned (party had 03 rogues and those guys don't like ressing people) but again and again up to the point of the ambush I was dying in combat way to fast even with my shield up while the rogues and the CW health bar remained at 100%. The party finally decided to kick me and at that point it felt totally right because I was dragging the team behind... I was dead weight...
So... Some of you may say just learn to play... Yeah... that may be it... But may I be overlooking something? I'm new to this game but not to MMO is general.
Any advice will be appreciated.
Any
Post edited by roderickzero on
0
Comments
You play as a tank, but that doesn't mean you get to stand in a massive pile of guys with your shield up...not in the big leagues and not without a fantastic cleric. You mentioned that you go through dungeons with 10 kills and 500 damage (hope that's a typo lol). If so, that's part of your problem. Doing damage is how you build threat and hold aggro...meaning if you want to control enemies in attacking you, you have be dealing damage to overcome the threat the rest of your team is building.
Now, you're probably thinking "Why the hell would I want that if I'm complaining about dying?!"...well...if you control enemies aggro you can kite them around so majority are attacking you from your front, which means you can block. If enemies surround you...your shield does nothing, plus enemies are getting a damage bonus against you (combat advantage). Also, if you're holding aggro, your team can safely heal you and dps enemies quicker/easier. Oh and don't forget about life steal...dealing damage with your attacks will also be healing you so you can stay in the fight longer.
Mobility is the key. You need to be moving around not only to position enemies, but also to avoid their attacks. Your shield does not make you invincible. Your abilities will play a large part in how you survive and hold aggro. Knight's Valor is a great encounter for buffing your resistance as well as building threat. Just stay clear of AoE.
Hope that helps and take my advise with a grain of salt...it's a team game and good teammates can make a big different. Also, I'm a rogue in plate armor.
_______________________________
Primal Instinct
Indominus Rex - GF/PvP Pancake Maker
Also, have you looked at your and hard, soft caps, and diminishing returns? Just because you are a tank (which is valuable as hell, despite what any main DPS class says), it doesn't mean that you can't still hit like a truck.
1) what paragon did you choose ?
2) what are all of your stats?
3) do you have soulforged ?
4) what dallies etc etc are you running in ToS
5) do you have an augmented pet ?
I know these sound like normal things you have thought about before but I can tell you that epic ToS isnt any fun especially if there is a bit of lag and you dont get your shield up quick enough when the archers use there "lazers" (lol) as its a one shot for basically everyone including a tank without shield up.
As already been suggested you may have made yourself over tanky (ie defence past the softcap and now you have diminishing returns) atm I only have 4300 (approx) defence but I know its past the softcap and as my artifact belt goes up I will be taking out one of my defence enchants and switching it for more deflect.
Someone told me to get more hit points and remove some of my deflect enchants because they had read it was better, but it really made things so so much worse. It was like if I didnt have my shield up every hit one me was real without and break from it that deflect gives. So I have since reversed there advise and now back to 2k deflect and aiming for soft cap. AFAIK thats 3200 for deflect.
I would say you are now at the stage I was a few weeks back where you need to tweak your build. Worse case is a total power/feat/paragon re-think. Or it could be you just need to get an augmented pet and deck them out with what your missing or a rethink and upgrade of the enchants your using now.
I would also say what your dallies and such you use in normal dungeons dont always work or give the best results in ToS. Example I switch to being more of a buff bot (ie into the fray for a damage buff etc etc for team) and knights valor (damage resist buff) for the team and use cleave/threatening rush) to grab most of the adds.
I think there are builds out there that even though people say dont or wont work in future mods dont mean they cant work now. It does depend on your style of play and how you run, ie I do all dallies and open world pve without any problems and then switch powers for dungeons and then again switch to epic ToS. ie im the damage dealer and healer when open world pve. The damage buffer and dps helper on normal dungeons and then the buffer and threat rounder upper of ToS. But all of this all depends whos in your team CW's and clerics will ALWAYS help make your life easier because you dont have to try to survive as much if theres a good cleric and if theres also a good CW then they do alot more control but you using your threat etc etc to hurd the adds etc etc = success.
Hope this helps
My tank is only a twink, but this far, I have managed to tank every single dungeon in game without a healer. Well, not every, I still lack healer less Dread Vault and Castle Never clears, but I guess I'll pass on those two. xD
Two of the funniest places to tank without a healer are Epic Shores and Epic Lostmauth, simply for the fact, that you actually need to be on edge at all times since some stuff in there can even one-shot you as a tank. And yeah, having good DPS and CC along helps alot, especially with the end bosses in Lostmauth and Shores.
My tank is currently running at 17.4k gear score as an Iron Vanguard.
47k HP and 37 AC with 16 STR - 29 CON - 21 DEX <--- difference to the OP here, since he runs more STR and lower DEX
Damage Resistance: 51.9%
Deflection Chance: 33.8%
Life Steal: 3.9%
One of the biggest differences between my build and the OP's build I see in the swap of DEX and STR, which also results in my way higher deflection rate, which is actually even double of the OP's. It is a slight difference since I deflect 1/3 hits and he only deflects 1/6.
Tanking without a healer is practically almost the same as tanking with a healer, only that you now actually need to pay attention on how and when enemies attack (which will most likely improve your tanking with healer).
First of all you need to make sure you are the one opening combat, so don't have any of your group mates charge in, YOU pull.
Make sure you can get your Enforced threat out as soon as your enemies are in range and before they get you in their melee range. This is verry important, since you NEED to have your shield up as soon as you got the initial aggro and they start charging you.
My guess is, since you said they dropped you in a second, that you where too late on shouting and then getting your shield up.
Once you have the mobs attention you make sure they stay in front of you. If nescessary, move backwards slowly, semi-kiting them. Wait for your cooldowns (in my case ITF and ET), drop your shield, cast and re-up shield. You can keep moving backwards and evade hits, especially whenever you drop your shield to cast powers. If you run low on stamina, try to get 1-2 hits with tide of Iron in.
It's all about juggling out when you use your powers and when you hide behind your shield. The rest is up to the DPS, the faster they kill stuff, the less you need to juggle. And yes, the CC of the DPS classes needs to be used, and it gives you time to drop your shield.
On a side note, I usually don't use potions or let's rather say I try to avoid it as much as possible. It's the last bastion to fall back on.
You got many options to regain health as a tank, starting from your life steal and your regeneration, you got Crushing Surge (even tho I prefer Cleave based on my spec, I debuff mobs to decrease their damage) and you can fall back on your daily power Fighter's Recovery as well. If that all fails to keep you alive... pop a potion
Bring Me The Horizon - lvl 70 Rogue - 2.5k IL
[The Legendary Outlaws]
"I saw you out there. I don't know what came over me, but I couldn't let you die. I found something inside of myself, something incredibly heroic. I mean, not to brag, but objectively..." -Peter Quill
Rex IV Tact GF | tRex SS Rene CW | GT: G3TxxS0M3
Take everything as knowledge, not facts, my gear has 400 deflect, but has HP , i stack all deflect gems and 1 radiant
He said he had 17% deflect chance. Slotting HP for him at that point is the best option.
"I saw you out there. I don't know what came over me, but I couldn't let you die. I found something inside of myself, something incredibly heroic. I mean, not to brag, but objectively..." -Peter Quill
Rex IV Tact GF | tRex SS Rene CW | GT: G3TxxS0M3
He has 1200 deflect for 10% chance
7% from Dex
Deflect IMO should hit 2200-3000 depending on total GS to use
What your saying is that his current stats getting 100 deflect (1% chance for him)
Is not worth it over 400hp? (100Gs worth) after boosts about 650hp
No Offence to person im quoting, but that kinda of copy paste response from the 1-2 guides on web just ruins peoples build. Its not knowledge to just rewrite what you read.
For example EHP, you didnt consider he is not running a Con belt, so his HP to DR and Deflect ratio goes up as a result.
Also as stated above, he doesnt really even factor the low deflect stat with high returns
The one thing he does prove, is that the only way to get good at this game is read the 1-2 guides available, use that as a sloppy template, read up on how stats work, and refine it into a build you understand and has synergy with your playstyle
This is coming from a GF Protector Swordmaster that has very rarely died on lostmauth since 13k gs. Now does boss to boss pulls on all dungeons without heals. Gives more dmg buffs than a taction build (5% more). And keeps teamates alive and well to DPS
The typical is ppl saying. "You need tact build " which i feel is squishy and shorts your team when it comes to staying alive. Debuff enemy dmg 20% means they staying alive, even those horribly under GS
EHP = HP / (1-DR/100)
Let's say he has 40k HP.
EHP with 100 deflect = 40,000 / (1-.505) = 80,808
EHP wth 400 HP = 40,400 / (1-.5) = 80,800
In this case they're relatively equal. Now, let's consider your case with 1700 points added into deflect rather than HP.
EHP with 1700 deflect = 40,000 / (1-.545) = 87,912
EHP with 6800 HP = 46,800 / (1-.5) = 93,600
Just by the simple calculation, stacking EHP in his case is better. Think about it logically; EHP is about surviving that big hit or crit. In my case there is more survivability.
I have run elol nearly 800 times now on my GF. Tactician is by far the best team build. I stream our elol runs regularly if you would like to see how a real tank plays this game. Learn how to build your character properly and you don't have to play as a turtle. Then you can focus more on buff/debuffing and moving the mobs where you team can be the most effective.
"I saw you out there. I don't know what came over me, but I couldn't let you die. I found something inside of myself, something incredibly heroic. I mean, not to brag, but objectively..." -Peter Quill
Rex IV Tact GF | tRex SS Rene CW | GT: G3TxxS0M3
Taction is all flair, woo dailys 3-4 seconds faster dailys and a 5% temp dmg buff
Im protector Swordmaster knocking 45% dmg debuffs on targets (plague fire aside just feats and ability) how much you run on your tact spec n gear?
But more so to the point, you on every post i have seen just say "stack hp or your dumb, im great" but you avoid any good info. And you fail to realize the simplist of things like 100 def on a tank is actually 115 or more if your human. So going point for point on diminishing returns charts gives you skewed results. Plus after 50k hp points can be better utilised in negating more damage so they stretch farther, and capping RI. Plus another factor yoir math ignores, is the higher he gets without DR or Deflect being boosted is just that more hp you have to heal. And end game tanking is only worth it if you do so without a healer.
I tank boss to boss almost everywhere in end game dungs, carrying 9-11ks through dungs. Keep them alive. Also one of biggest DPS boosts a tank can give is bigger pulls, more targets hit at ounce. DPS is damage per second btw, no as to mix it up with target debuffs
Your missing alot of info, if you send twitch info i dont mind coaching you, we all been at your point in the game. But seeking more knowledge will help move you up bud.
Already established both of us tank good lets talk debuffs
I keep 12% dmg buffs on all trash, bout 100% uptime
More of course on ones i hit
Ready mentioned 45% dmg buffs on bosses or majors.
Effortless and no CD so 100% uptime is a breeze
RI @ 25% for full debuff magnitudes aswell
Typical trash and all mobs hit 15% less practically 100% uptime.
I also stack 35% reduced incoming dmg to allies from boss targets and majors too.
How are your debuffs?
These are gear feats and abilities only, no weapon enchant factored in
Marks, tide of iron, Crushing Pin, ITF, KC set buff, GFE at full arpen, lantern.
I feel KV and marks are enough dmg reduction for the team. They typically don't have survivability issues and everything dies very fast.
"I saw you out there. I don't know what came over me, but I couldn't let you die. I found something inside of myself, something incredibly heroic. I mean, not to brag, but objectively..." -Peter Quill
Rex IV Tact GF | tRex SS Rene CW | GT: G3TxxS0M3
This isn't like tanking in typical mmo's. I.e., running dungeons is about zerging the enemies. Much like ironzerg says "death is the best crowd control" on a wizard, I believe death is the best damage reduction on a tank.
You cannot argue about EHP without showing some actual numbers and calculations. I literally proved you wrong with a calculation based on what you argued.
As tact I can purposefully take dmg and give my team a daily in 3-4 sec, not 3-4 sec faster. Also while running KV, other players can purposefully take some dmg to regen their daily when needed.
I don't think I'm missing much info, nor is there much room to "move up". I'm actually trying to help tanks in this game.
"I saw you out there. I don't know what came over me, but I couldn't let you die. I found something inside of myself, something incredibly heroic. I mean, not to brag, but objectively..." -Peter Quill
Rex IV Tact GF | tRex SS Rene CW | GT: G3TxxS0M3
I dont think you understand what debuffs are.
To reiterate, i was asking what dmg bonus, and damage reduction skills and abilities you use and how effective they are to percent increases and decreases.
Have you correctly tested crushing pins working throuch an artifact abilty? Because when the game says activates via power, at wills and enounters proc it.
And does it proc on bosses as they are immune to control effects?
As for EHP. Its a numbers game yes. But too high of an HP pool as a tank can make you squishy, if i dialed my stats the way you do i would sit at 82k hp (actual math) and never use bottom half of my hp. Been so long since i soulforged already and i keep 50k min hp as i fluctuate my stats.
And 1 thing to consider. Since your a twitcher and guild leader you can say your style works, but doesnt mean itll work for the 90% of population that isnt running with full hand picked groups all the time.
You might be ok as a squishy, focusing on pure dmg and low defence buffs for allies all way over geared.
Like an old man knowing only 1 way to do things
If im lucky i have 2 ppl on i can play with. And as a tank its my job to be as helpful as possible. So i do so with high dmg mitigation on team and enemies. And the sturdiness to not die as those 3-4 random bathes in red circles.
If youd post your buffs %s you see mine is higher besides the lantern