Let's talk about Rogues.

lazyaxus111 · April 2015

(I put this here because the pvp forum gets almost no traction right now)

Let me start off by saying I love the PVP in this game, and with a framerate fix and some more options/modes, I could see this being very fun for a very long time.

Now with that said.

There is a glaring issue right now with the rogue class... they are simply overpowered. In matches with equally geared and skilled players who have a DC that is specced well, we are mitigated quite a bit, but that rarely happens. Even in those matches we still destroy the people who aren't right by the DC. Nobody likes getting one shot, including me.

Our burst is my problem, it's simply too much. I would like to see slightly longer fights that include a little more strategy. My suggestion would be something like a nerf to our burst, however, I would like to compensate for that with something like a healing debuff on our focused target.

That discussion is probably very long and for the Devs, but in the mean time, I would love to at least see the double proc Shadow of Demise glitch fixed. I've included a screenshot of a 4v5 match that my random team almost won, and you can see by the board that there is something amiss. I definitely consider myself an avid PVP'r across many MMO's on PC, and I have never seen the sort of things that a rogue can do in this game.

EDIT: I do want to clarify that I'm not looking for some knee jerk reaction nerf that makes our class useless either, which is why my suggestion for the healing debuff is there. Give groups a reason to want rogues.

Thanks,
Aeneas of Twitch.tv

blackxxwolf3 · April 2015

i agree. thanks for a constructive post. *respect* i see a lot of games like that and usually its a saboteur that does it. because you cant hit what you cant see.

katamaster81899 · April 2015

Trust me, the PC players were reporting this for two modules and it still hasnt been fixed very well.

lazyaxus111 · April 2015

Ah that is very sad news indeed. I sometimes wonder if people, especially newer under geared players (which just compounds this issue) come into pvp and immediately get discouraged by some of what is happening.

That is not a good recipe for developing any sort of thriving PVP community.

krad777 · April 2015

I'm glad someone brought this up. I didn't want to complain about a class being op but it's pretty blatant rogues are at a pretty large advantage when it comes to pvp. Being a control wizard that built my character for pvp, I pretty much am always on top of the leaderboards for pvp but still get completely owned by rogues. And when I am owning a rogue, how fast they can runaway and stealth back is ridiculous. They shouldn't be able to hit that hard, take that much damage and still be able to move that quick. And this isn't coming from a player that is poorly specced and is just complaining about getting killed. I have researched and experimented thoroughly with my build and still am unable to figure out this puzzle that is called the trickster rogue.

j0kerspsycho · April 2015

Bravo good sir on the 40-0, i myself have only gotten to 38-3-20 with no healer around T.T but i agree TR does a lot of burst damage, mainly need lashing blade to not do 90% of targets hp, there is no real "skill" involved around it (i play HR but played TR on pc) it offers no counter-playability because u cant really do much when u are instantly gibbed. While i would like to see the TR changed for the better with a bit of damage reduction on LB (only huge problem imo but i havent ran into skillful execution build yet) and maybe a bit of compensation elsewhere because i love the rogue archetype and the only reason i didnt play one is because i view they are kinda op and cheap in this game (just for me, if you enjoy playing it good on ya and keep it up!). But as was said they have been broken on pc for many mods and apparently 6 didnt fix anything except the double procing. and as lazy said its when low level/gear score/inexperienced players enter pvp for the first time and get eaten alive it is a discouraging thing. And think about 1 or two months down the line when we are all 18k + GS and you can one shot anyone under 12k GS no1 will want to pvp then. But cryptic doenst seem to care so merh.

Just my thoughts, have a nice day.

firesforever2 · April 2015

They are overpowered in pvp and seems lots of people know this and are using them for pvp, it basically makes pvp pointless atm. As such I only do pvp once a day for the daily quest.

krad777 · April 2015

firesforever2 wrote: »

They are overpowered in pvp and seems lots of people know this and are using them for pvp, it basically makes pvp pointless atm. As such I only do pvp once a day for the daily quest.

Exactly. Seems people are content with using a broken class for pvp for easy wins. It does make pvp pointless until fixed.

finaldeath1689 · April 2015

firesforever2 wrote: »

They are overpowered in pvp and seems lots of people know this and are using them for pvp, it basically makes pvp pointless atm. As such I only do pvp once a day for the daily quest.

I gave up with pvp after doing 2 matches for dailies around level 30. Even though you still get credit for the daily when you lose i don't want to deal with the frustration of getting slaughtered nonstop. It was bad enough low level before they started getting everything unlocked, i don't even want to think about how bad it will be at max level.

krad777 · April 2015

I think the worst part is when you do finally have the upper hand on a TR they just stealth away and are across the map in a matter of seconds.

attorn97 · April 2015

Serious question.. how much fun is the game when you go 40-0? or 38-3?

Why even PvP when there's no challenge?

krad777 · April 2015

Well pvp for me being a Control wizard is a ton of fun. Just sucks when coming across a TR.

dokkon19 · April 2015

I really almost hate to agree with this, I've played Rogue class since Everquest in 99. And besides the great days of OP in DAoC and some in WoW have I not felt such power. You control Wizards only have yourself to blame wearing those silky smooth robes. And 40 and 0 come on give yourself some credit that's a beast score no matter the op. I bet folks were spitting at you for kill stealing, You were fleecing that wool. btw, why doesn't the @username show up by your name? But alas i have to agree, Most classes with fall to a single stealth strike when they are around 40 percent. While I agree with that when it comes to other rogues and cloth wearer that have low con, not so much with the chain and plate. Actually for a game 2 years old, i'm quite surprised we can get away with so much.

Edit Add: i've not played the mage class, is there no protection buff? Somebody should get on that.

krad777 · April 2015

dokkon19 wrote: »

I really almost hate to agree with this, I've played Rogue class since Everquest in 99. And besides the great days of OP in DAoC and some in WoW have I not felt such power. You control Wizards only have yourself to blame wearing those silky smooth robes. And 40 and 0 come on give yourself some credit that's a beast score no matter the op. I bet folks were spitting at you for kill stealing, You were fleecing that wool. btw, why doesn't the @username show up by your name? But alas i have to agree, Most classes with fall to a single stealth strike when they are around 40 percent. While I agree with that when it comes to other rogues and cloth wearer that have low con, not so much with the chain and plate. Actually for a game 2 years old, i'm quite surprised we can get away with so much.

Edit Add: i've not played the mage class, is there no protection buff? Somebody should get on that.

Control wizard has a shield spell which works very well in Pvp

lazyaxus111 · April 2015

It was fun at first. I will probably reroll to a HR or GWF.

scarlettenight · April 2015

Totally agree. TRs are so overpowered, it's a joke.

neverknight5 · April 2015

Lvl 51 Cleric here and it's no fun to be dazed and until my health bar is less than one bar and then finished off. Fights between me and rogues last less than 10 seconds. That is shocking. The dazing strike cool down needs to be upped because they can simply do it too frequently and dominate the opponent and worst of all, we don't even have a chance to react. It's not really a fair fight when someone gets their skills locked out whilst they get beaten on to one bar of health, then dazed again because it was cooling down whilst I'm dazed. I'm not saying remove dazes but make them shorter and up the cool down. The same goes for other rogue skills.

metheantihero · April 2015

If you think the current TR is OP, you would hate the "PERMA-STEALTH" build we had on the PC. For 95% of the game a TR would go unseen. As a TR it was great, but being its target totally ruined the game.

silver44sword · April 2015

LOLOL!! Makes me laugh to no end how players think were in a WOW clone or something...this is based off DUNGEONS and DRAGONS which was the starter of all things RPG and I was there since the late seventies; when thac0 wasn't even invented yet.

D&D is more about the adventure, exploration, role playing and experience more than stats like what you call.....crit., buffs, dallies, DC, PVP.

PvP really isn't a factor in dungeons and dragons games...it's about the story. If PvP wasn't in the game I could care less; not to step on others toes, but i would rather enjoy the greater experience of adventuring and journey than spending time in the linear mode of PvP matches.

I truly believe that cryptic should have never included this aspect of NWO and spent more time developing modules and greeater content; including more of the FR's to explore.

Again I'm not trying to upset anyone, it just appears to me that NWO seems kinda limited for players right now in terms of in game exploration content.......neverwinter itself is a much larger city than what we are able to traverse right now in the game and I certainly hope that changes in the future.

silver44sword · April 2015

...and to add to the pot once again. The rogue class in this game is none other than an official assassin class. So if we truly take that into account the very artifice of this class is a deadly slayer that is able to kill in one blow in the table top version if presented with the right circumstance......so yes the rogue class in NWO are obviously gonna have heavy HP damage output in reference to combat.

"Is it an imbalance....not really. just be aware that by the very definition of assassin DOES concur the notion of killing something proficiently as a skill or art.

valetudo78 · April 2015

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but as someone who played neverwinter on PC from day 1. The devs are more focused on fixing things that keep the cash flow coming in and alot of the buffs and nerfs they did to the classes rarely fixed problems, more often creating new ones.

cg0xirussian · April 2015

I think the only solution at the moment is dazing them with wizards or spamming invincibility with devoted clerics. Rogues do have very low hp so if they do fail to hit and run they are dead so that's some compensation. Maybe get rid of the ability that lets them instantly recharge their cloak?

j0kerspsycho · April 2015

attorn97 wrote: »

Serious question.. how much fun is the game when you go 40-0? or 38-3?

Why even PvP when there's no challenge?

I have a blast, did a 33-1-17 game today and ended up losing cause I can only be at one place at once but it was a blast. A mad good cleric on their team which made it so I didn't instantly kill their whole team LOL. Also HR best counter to TR.

krad777 · April 2015

But is it really fun knowing those kills are coming from the class being broken and not actual skill or strategy?

j0kerspsycho · April 2015

krad777 wrote: »

But is it really fun knowing those kills are coming from the class being broken and not actual skill or strategy?

So both hunter ranger and trickster rogue require no skill now? Where are the threads complaining about hunter rangers? I can't find them.

krad777 · April 2015

I was referring to TR, which yes, requires very little skill or even a good build in pvp.

j0kerspsycho · April 2015

Pve rogues blow imo, I can double a rogues damage all day, in pvp they are ez to play but requires a decent build. Getting kills isn't that hard, I've done 10 games with lowest being 18 kills average is 27 give or take (with an hr). Yes rogues r ez to play but learn the in and out's of the class and ur class and u can eat them alive, I no I can kill a 10k Gs rogue in 3-5sec depending on crits

lazyaxus111 · April 2015

j0kerspsycho wrote: »

Pve rogues blow imo, I can double a rogues damage all day, in pvp they are ez to play but requires a decent build. Getting kills isn't that hard, I've done 10 games with lowest being 18 kills average is 27 give or take (with an hr). Yes rogues r ez to play but learn the in and out's of the class and ur class and u can eat them alive, I no I can kill a 10k Gs rogue in 3-5sec depending on crits

A lot of this is true against a rogue that doesn't really know what's going on, but certainly not the case against one who does.

finaldeath1689 · April 2015

lazyaxus111 wrote: »

A lot of this is true against a rogue that doesn't really know what's going on, but certainly not the case against one who does.

They should either have high damage or be good at dishing out stuns, not both. It is complete bs to get stun locked and killed in a matter of seconds from a single person. Rogues and assassins and thieves in every mmo i have ever played are always stupid op in pvp and is one of the big reasons i avoid pvp like a plague.

thezer0flux · April 2015

I don't know about rogues in PvP because I have no interest at all in PvP, but I can say with certainty TRs don't blow in PvE. I've yet to run a skirmish or dungeon where my TR didn't double (or more) the damage of the toon in 2nd place. In a couple cases I've done more damage than the rest of the group combined. I usually have most kills as well. My only deaths (not many) so far are from getting ambushed while trying to clear out loot notifications from some guy running around picking up treasure during a fight.

If you think TRs aren't any good in PvE, my guess is you're talking about a TR spec'd for PvP trying to run in PvE. If so, I agree that wouldn't be as effective, nor would a PvE spec do well in PvP. My PvE TR, however, is a beast in story, dungeon, and skirmish play. Regardless, if Cryptic changes the TR, I hope it's only in PvP. I hate it when developers ruin an awesome PvE experience when trying to fix PvP. I'd rather they cut PvP altogether than break PvE. PvP doesn't make any sense in this kind of game anyway.

e11z · April 2015

silver44sword wrote: »

...and to add to the pot once again. The rogue class in this game is none other than an official assassin class. So if we truly take that into account the very artifice of this class is a deadly slayer that is able to kill in one blow in the table top version if presented with the right circumstance......so yes the rogue class in NWO are obviously gonna have heavy HP damage output in reference to combat.

"Is it an imbalance....not really. just be aware that by the very definition of assassin DOES concur the notion of killing something proficiently as a skill or art.

There's no skill and it's not impressive being a TR In this game.
However I know this all changes once people get good gear. Especially CW's. At end game pvp, TR's get pissed on when HP pools increase.

So if you want to counter rogues or pretty much anything in the game - get lots of HP.

Let's talk about Rogues.

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