[Suggestion] Whisperknife improvement

bakaslam · January 2015

Hello guys,
you are all aware that at the moment either for PVP and PVE the best choice is Master Infiltrator, due the high damage + control immunity that is capable off.
Personally, though, I have always loved the Whisperknife, and I appreciate how in this module it obtained an improvement that actually made it at least playable.

Although, so far, Master Infiltrator it's still the best choice, and I believe that when it comes to Paragon paths, there should never be one that is better than the other one, but instead the choice should be made based on our own play style.

So, I have been thinking about it, and one of the things that makes MI better than WK is Impossibile to Catch (I won't even mention Shocking Execution, since I'm pretty sure they will nerf it very soon).
WK has Vengeance's Pursuit, that can't even be called a Control Immunity, since it only works against a Control Attack and just if you previously designed a target.

My suggestion, is to implement some sort of Control Immunity in Advantageous Position, in order to give to WK some chances of survivability. If not for the whole 6 seconds, at least for the first 3, just like ITC (that however also can provide damage immunity).

That's just an idea, I don't claim to be the most clever suggestion ever, that's why I hope you will give me opinion on the topic!

mirrorballs · January 2015

Sir, I've been a WK since mod2, and persisted through the days when people treated WK as a gimmicky trash in PvP. That being said, currently in mod5, we're spot on at where a TR should be in terms of performance, I believe.

Rather, it's MIs and ITC that's still too strong, IMO. It's a really powerful tool. For example, in World of Warcraft, all classes have access to a CC breaker, and this breaks CCs only once and does not protect further. This has a 2 minute cooldown. In SWTOR, all classes have access to a special power that breaks CCs only once and does not protect further. This also has a 2m cooldown.

Now ITC, it breaks ALL CCs except prone (which don't exist much nowadyas anyway), it protects oneself to further CCs for 4 extra seconds, it increases one's deflection by 100%, and when used from stealth it adds in another extra 50% damage resistance... and its recharge is only 18 seconds default. Due to recharge effecting stats, most MIs have it around 15.

Considering how powerful this one power is, the recharge is IMO way too short to be considered normal. I'd wager a more proper recharge time would be around 25s default, and 20s with high recharge stats.

bakaslam · January 2015

Thank you for your reply and for the feedback.
However, I'd like to discuss the need or not to WK to have a Control Immunity as the things are now.

Personally, when you are fighting against 5 different players that are all in the same moment trying to kill and control you, breaking just one CC isn't enough, to my point of view.
So, instead of taking off ITC, I'd rather see something like this implemented to all the other classes.

An ITC alike skill is in most of the classes (In SW, GW and GWF it's actually the class mechanic), so my post doesn't want to analyze the need or not of a Control Immunity skill, but the need or not of a Control Immunity skill in WK case.

suddenlyslow · January 2015

I often get a fumble with VP where an ally crosses the path and you don't realize it immediately and it makes it very unreliable in the chaos of things unless there are no ally targets about -- but I am the clumsy sort in general so that might mainly be with me. Also today I kept getting the "can't do that while disabled" message when trying to break free from whatever CC had me -- I was that way for quite awhile and never did get free and never figured out what had me (and yes the icon was indicating for the second strike but I can't be sure if there was a latency timing issue where it hit at the same time and such).

s1lv3rdrgnforum · January 2015

suddenlyslow wrote: »

I often get a fumble with VP where an ally crosses the path and you don't realize it immediately and it makes it very unreliable in the chaos of things unless there are no ally targets about -- but I am the clumsy sort in general so that might mainly be with me. Also today I kept getting the "can't do that while disabled" message when trying to break free from whatever CC had me -- I was that way for quite awhile and never did get free and never figured out what had me (and yes the icon was indicating for the second strike but I can't be sure if there was a latency timing issue where it hit at the same time and such).

FWIW this has happened to me in CN as TR and CW. Not sure what is causing it. I think you are right - it is some sort of latency issue as I have been having strange latency issues most of the day - half-second glitches that are 98% harmless.

bakaslam · January 2015

The problem with VP is that you need to design a target before they try to control you and not too much earlier tough because the effect will eventually vanish away.
Also if they are too far (don't know how much) or there are walls/corner/something between you and your target, the teleport fails.

My point again is that right now the only Control Immunity skill that we have as Whisperknife doesn't really works well, especially considering the other paragon path or more in general the other classes.

mirrorballs · January 2015

However, I'd like to discuss the need or not to WK to have a Control Immunity as the things are now.

Personally, when you are fighting against 5 different players that are all in the same moment trying to kill and control you, breaking just one CC isn't enough, to my point of view.

So, instead of taking off ITC, I'd rather see something like this implemented to all the other classes.

[/quote]

Sir, while many of the frustrated, angry hate-calls against us TRs in these forums are unwarranted, there are some comments which hold value and should be respected. One of it is related with this topic.

Sir, if we're fighting/surrounded by 5 players, then we deserve to be defeated, like any other.

I'm not in the opinion that a TR should always be simply hunted down like a dodo and be dispatched of so easily. I do think it's important for a TR -- a stealth class -- to hold a unique advantage over other classes in that it can escape hairballs better than most. But that's when only the TR uses extreme caution and careful planning to concentrate in escaping and escaping only.

It has always been the task of every WKs in PvP to be extra careful, cold-and-calculated than MIs since we can't throw ourselves into the heat of battle and then simply click a 5s "you can't touch me" power and run away at whim. IMO, sir, it's the MIs that are abnormal, not the WKs that are too weak.

I can dare say, sir, when WKs get something like ITC, every word the TR haters speak in the General Discussions forums becomes true.

An ITC alike skill is in most of the classes (In SW, GW and GWF it's actually the class mechanic), so my post doesn't want to analyze the need or not of a Control Immunity skill, but the need or not of a Control Immunity skill in WK case.

All of those have different implications and none of them are quite like the ITC IMO, sir.

bakaslam wrote: »

The problem with VP is that you need to design a target before they try to control you and not too much earlier tough because the effect will eventually vanish away.
Also if they are too far (don't know how much) or there are walls/corner/something between you and your target, the teleport fails.

My point again is that right now the only Control Immunity skill that we have as Whisperknife doesn't really works well, especially considering the other paragon path or more in general the other classes.

Sir, it works well.

Every "problem" you've mentioned above is essentially a part of the learning curve that makes a WK, and distinguishes between beginner and adept. Sir, don't get me wrong, I'm not simply blurting out "L2P!" or anything like that, but I must respectfully emphasize that using experience and training to overcome the problems mentioned above, is what it means to become a good WK player.

The "WHEN" concerning the timing you plant the initial throw of VP has varying different implications. Timing this right will allow you to quite gracefully and effectively hunt down even MI TRs and hit them when the are the weakest. As much, the choice of whether or not you use the VP-teleport also has different implications. This makes WK TRs a very fun class to play that has a varying, different way of using VP under different circumstances.. and every choice that ranges from who to plant it on, when to use the teleport, or whether or not to use it at all.. each applies as a different tactic to use against different enemies to circumvent their defensive tactics.

Sir, denying this and just turning it into ITC, means essentially "dumbing down" what makes a WK so fun, and giving reason for people to nerf TRs once and for all. I can dare say if VP turns into something like ITC, WKs are going to become something that even shadows MIs in terms of OPness.

bakaslam · January 2015

It is, indeed, a fun class to play!
Way more fun than MI in first place.

But still, I'm not talking at all about being invincible, but just having an Control Immunity that is balanced with the other classes.
I'm not suggesting to introduce a Damage Immunity as for the MI, instead I'm just saying that since the TR is basically a melee class, it should have a Control Immunity that has similar mechanics to the other in the game.

And talking about the 5 vs 1, I get what you means, but that's not how it works at the moment in the game.

SW has extra speed and Control Immunity to escape, and they are distance based class.
GW can sit in the crowd with no problem and hold all the enemy team in the point (but that's something fair since they are defenders).
GWF can stay in the crowd as well and hold the team and still get kills.

I'm not even talking about what is realistic or not, but I am talking about a balancing between all the classes. Many of them has Control Immunity that give them at least the chance to run away when it's needed and I personally don't see the reason why a WK shouldn't.

Also, I'd like to clarify that I'm not talking about changing VP itslef, but to insert somewhere (my idea was to put it as an additional effect of Advantageous position) to make it more fair.
You said that the other classes have different mechanics, which is true.
They have it as a class mechanic and also they gain when movement, when total defense, when extra PF and so on.
The point is that the most of classes (HR doesn't as well), has something like ITC.

Am I saying that VP is not a cool skill? Not at all.
Am I saying we should gain as well damage immunity and 6 seconds long Control Immunity? Again, no.

The only thing I'd like to see changed in VP is how teleport work. Once you design your target unless it remains close to you, it doesn't work.

My initial suggestion was to add 3 second Control Immunity after stealth. Not something that you can add whenever you want as MI. Not something that you can activate whenever you want.
But something that gives you a bit more chances when just out the stealth and that's when all the players focuses on you.
A well deserved Control Immunity to my point of view, because of the strict melee nature of the class.

suddenlyslow · January 2015

I would be well pleased with 1 or 2 sec immunity on VP teleport portion, and that such activates regardless of target range (i.e. port fails if target is oor but break/immunity portion activates). I would also really like to see the initial hit not be hindered by ally targets in the way. I think that would still leave the power as a skill based approach and yet it would become more reliable in those situations where it can fail now.

bakaslam · January 2015

suddenlyslow wrote: »

I would be well pleased with 1 or 2 sec immunity on VP teleport portion, and that such activates regardless of target range (i.e. port fails if target is oor but break/immunity portion activates). I would also really like to see the initial hit not be hindered by ally targets in the way. I think that would still leave the power as a skill based approach and yet it would become more reliable in those situations where it can fail now.

I agree.
My idea wasn't to make it usable "at-a-will" just using VP, but instead just when out of stealth.
But even integrating it to VP might be another possibility (even considered the long VP cool-down). It would at least give to WK some kind of chances in melee crowded fights.
Not a chance to kill everyone but a chance to run away.
A chance that btw is not that trivial, because if someone wants to kill you he will just follow you and kill you.

Let's remember that TR has the "first strike" feat and deciding to target someone instead of going with the usual Lashing Blade would make the TR lose lots of potential damages. Same with Executioner and Shadow of Demise.

So I think it would be a fair price.

Unknown · January 2015

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mirrorballs · January 2015

morenthar wrote: »

Agreed. As of now, VP is a decent but a bit clunky. My experience with my WK Scoundrel build is as follows. Highly effective against CWs, SWs and HRs. Properly built high - end tanks are tough. I have to be really patient and not **** up. But maybe I just suck I feel a good high end GWF to be toughest to deal with on a node because it's range can essentially reach you from across the node. I might have to start dropping smoke on them instead. I hate sacrificing a gap closer though. An HR or CW comes by while I'm engaged and there's no escape. This is all things equal. If they are weak they are in trouble. ^)

In my case, I would argue the only thing that needs fixing with VP is that it still doesn't break Ray of Frost from the CWs and Trapper HR roots. It's obviously a bug, and the Ray of Frost bit was reported since ages ago, Yet, no explanation is given whatsoever, nor is it fixed.

VP is meant to break out of CCs. Ray of Frost and Trapper Roots aren't even hard-CCs like stun/holds. It's not an incapacitating effect, nor is it even relevant since a "CC-breaker" is supposed to be bringing you out of such incapacitation in the first place. Obviously the power doesn't ignore immunities, since a MI with ITC can very simply, casually, easily break out of it, as well as Oghma's token also breaks you free.

So there is no special reason or anything we're not informed with. The power fails to break you from those two, and it's a bug.

Unknown · January 2015

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[Suggestion] Whisperknife improvement

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