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Why Saboteuer is Broken Part Deux: "Who Needs Perma"?
kweassa
Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
"Who Needs Perma Stealth?"
http://youtu.be/D-_waqRWOCc
Something I've discovered that works for even MIs. Even without using a "true perma" setup with BnS, this one makes use of Deft Strike to force an almost unavoidable proc of "Return to Shadows" -- 50% stealth meter fill when hitting encounter from backside.
This doesn't work in PvE because the NPC mobs are simply programmed to react and face you all the time. The moment you activate Deft Strike, the mobs turn and face you before your teleport lands, hence, mobs almost never give you their backside unless you use jumping encounters to pull past them as the mobs themselves attack (the only moment mobs are fixed in heading).
Of course, people don't react with such mechanical precision. Unless your target anticipates your Deft Strike everytime, or just by pure luck dodges at the moment, all things considered your Deft Strike will most probably land.
Now, the "OLD" idea of Deft Strike was to use it as a gap-closer, get to the backside of your target and inflict a slow, and then you try and use melee powers to hit your target. Of course, in reality most people aren't fast enough to avoid Deft Strike itself, but a LOT of people -- even lower skill level players -- can dodge away from the next incoming attacks.
The video showcases something different. Deft Strike is not used to try and slow. Rather, Deft Strike itself becomes the purpose. As you run out of stealth, a Deft Strike will land on the backside and instantly fill you 50% stealth meter. And when you click on another attack power while Deft Strike is activating it will activate immediately without any delay. Some of you may remember my very, very old posts regarding Vengeance's Pursuit, and how a power "queued up" during VP teleport will activate immediately, almost at the same time as you teleport, and as a result activate faster than normal -- as if some of its animation frames are cancelled. Same happens to Deft Strike. So in all practicality, if you land the Deft Strike then the follow up encounter will land almost automatically. That's two encounters to the back side in less than 1 second span of timel.
The result? Instant stealth meter refill.
Previously, Return to Shadows was considered to be lackluster since it seemed getting behind the enemy and landing an encounter was much too difficult in actual NW PvP. This method I've discovered clearly shows that is not the case.
IT'S SUPER EASY
The implications are clear. The moment you lose stealth, even if you don't have BnS to refill, even if your OWtS is on cooldown, a Saboteuer can still instantly refill 100% of the meter and can go straight back to stealth. Effectively, it's almost the same thing as having TWO One With the Shadows.
Using this trait, in the video you see me playing wrecklessly. Yes, I'm not caring about survival or anything. For test purposes I just fling CoS. Fling fling fling. I don't guage stealth time, I don't play carefully at all. I just fling CoS and refill stealth.
In this video, once this method was discovered, STEALTH DEPLETION HAS NO MEANING AT ALL and you can see me just endlessly firing off CoS from stealth.
On average a single shot of my CoS when stack buffs are set, will deal 3k per pop from stealth. To that 3k damage from each and every CoS fling, an average of 1.9k damage from Shadowy Opportunity is added as piercing damage. As a result, I fling a 5k CoS shot endlessly, and that is enough to just kill people where they stand.
In the version depicted in the video I use Deft Strike + WR, but I have discovered Deft Strike + Impact Shot is much easier. (Both have pros and cons)
Fling, fling, fling, fling stealth about to be dumped, throw Impact Shot to stun briefly + instant stealth refill.
Fling, fling, fling, fling stealth about to be dumped, throw SS and instant stealth refill
Fling, fling, fling, fling stealth IS gone, then Deft Strike+ImpactShot, instant stealth refill...
...repeat until the other guy drops. I'd love to see the faces of the people who said the CoS changes were bad. I did tell them the advantages of having infinite charges of CoS will ultimately outweigh the disadvantages of the damage nerf and slow-fire. This unending, infinite attacks of knives that hurt like hell, more or less proves my point.
So, in the video, I don't even wait around to use full stealth length for perma. I just dump all possible CoS shots from stealth as soon as I get stealth. Who needs to worry about depletion? I just use my stealth-boosted attacks to deplete all all stealth, and then simply refill it on my whim.
Such wonders, this Saboteuer has wrought. I think I'm gonna vomit.
[EDIT] At 05:05, you see the only instance in this match where this "instant refill fails". The GF just unexpectedly turned his direction just as I teleport.
http://youtu.be/D-_waqRWOCc
Something I've discovered that works for even MIs. Even without using a "true perma" setup with BnS, this one makes use of Deft Strike to force an almost unavoidable proc of "Return to Shadows" -- 50% stealth meter fill when hitting encounter from backside.
This doesn't work in PvE because the NPC mobs are simply programmed to react and face you all the time. The moment you activate Deft Strike, the mobs turn and face you before your teleport lands, hence, mobs almost never give you their backside unless you use jumping encounters to pull past them as the mobs themselves attack (the only moment mobs are fixed in heading).
Of course, people don't react with such mechanical precision. Unless your target anticipates your Deft Strike everytime, or just by pure luck dodges at the moment, all things considered your Deft Strike will most probably land.
Now, the "OLD" idea of Deft Strike was to use it as a gap-closer, get to the backside of your target and inflict a slow, and then you try and use melee powers to hit your target. Of course, in reality most people aren't fast enough to avoid Deft Strike itself, but a LOT of people -- even lower skill level players -- can dodge away from the next incoming attacks.
The video showcases something different. Deft Strike is not used to try and slow. Rather, Deft Strike itself becomes the purpose. As you run out of stealth, a Deft Strike will land on the backside and instantly fill you 50% stealth meter. And when you click on another attack power while Deft Strike is activating it will activate immediately without any delay. Some of you may remember my very, very old posts regarding Vengeance's Pursuit, and how a power "queued up" during VP teleport will activate immediately, almost at the same time as you teleport, and as a result activate faster than normal -- as if some of its animation frames are cancelled. Same happens to Deft Strike. So in all practicality, if you land the Deft Strike then the follow up encounter will land almost automatically. That's two encounters to the back side in less than 1 second span of timel.
The result? Instant stealth meter refill.
Previously, Return to Shadows was considered to be lackluster since it seemed getting behind the enemy and landing an encounter was much too difficult in actual NW PvP. This method I've discovered clearly shows that is not the case.
IT'S SUPER EASY
The implications are clear. The moment you lose stealth, even if you don't have BnS to refill, even if your OWtS is on cooldown, a Saboteuer can still instantly refill 100% of the meter and can go straight back to stealth. Effectively, it's almost the same thing as having TWO One With the Shadows.
Using this trait, in the video you see me playing wrecklessly. Yes, I'm not caring about survival or anything. For test purposes I just fling CoS. Fling fling fling. I don't guage stealth time, I don't play carefully at all. I just fling CoS and refill stealth.
In this video, once this method was discovered, STEALTH DEPLETION HAS NO MEANING AT ALL and you can see me just endlessly firing off CoS from stealth.
On average a single shot of my CoS when stack buffs are set, will deal 3k per pop from stealth. To that 3k damage from each and every CoS fling, an average of 1.9k damage from Shadowy Opportunity is added as piercing damage. As a result, I fling a 5k CoS shot endlessly, and that is enough to just kill people where they stand.
In the version depicted in the video I use Deft Strike + WR, but I have discovered Deft Strike + Impact Shot is much easier. (Both have pros and cons)
Fling, fling, fling, fling stealth about to be dumped, throw Impact Shot to stun briefly + instant stealth refill.
Fling, fling, fling, fling stealth about to be dumped, throw SS and instant stealth refill
Fling, fling, fling, fling stealth IS gone, then Deft Strike+ImpactShot, instant stealth refill...
...repeat until the other guy drops. I'd love to see the faces of the people who said the CoS changes were bad. I did tell them the advantages of having infinite charges of CoS will ultimately outweigh the disadvantages of the damage nerf and slow-fire. This unending, infinite attacks of knives that hurt like hell, more or less proves my point.
So, in the video, I don't even wait around to use full stealth length for perma. I just dump all possible CoS shots from stealth as soon as I get stealth. Who needs to worry about depletion? I just use my stealth-boosted attacks to deplete all all stealth, and then simply refill it on my whim.
Such wonders, this Saboteuer has wrought. I think I'm gonna vomit.
[EDIT] At 05:05, you see the only instance in this match where this "instant refill fails". The GF just unexpectedly turned his direction just as I teleport.
Stop making excuses. Be a man.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Post edited by kweassa on
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Deadpool // HR
Shakur // Tr
The real solution to the problem is this....
Anytime the below listed at will are used stealth depletes 100%
- Cloud of steel = 100% depletion
- Disheartening strike = 100% depletion
Problem solved..By the way.. I saw you spam CoS not in stealth also plenty of times.
Were you the one with the DHS artifact weapon with 8k power?
Anyhow, yeah, been just spamming CoS everywhere. It was a PuG game but still, just easy enough to do nothing much but repeatedly CoS, DHS, and stealth refill without having to rely on "careful perma management" in Sab, so to speak.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Cable-grade, usually average 200ms to the NW server.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Actually the point of this thread would be that Return to Shadows -- a Saboteuer feat that was previoysly considered lackluster for PvP purposes, turns out to be very easy to make use of in PvP.
This gives the Sab tree yet ANOTHER stealth-refill option.
What's worse? This method doesn't make use of the classic perma setups, and yet, its even more aggressive and powerful in damagethan the perma method. This is why:
with a classic perma setup, one would be using BnS with around 20s recharge, SS with default 16s (usually 13~14s with some INT investment), and the effects of OWtS on a 15s icd. You would be trying to shuffle these around in rotation so each stealth refill matches the downtime of another
this means the amount of attacks/powers you use from stealth is limited by your need to maintain unbroken chain of stealth
making use of Return to Shadows is different: RTS has no icd. The only thing that limits its use is the recharge time of your own encounter powers. Deft Strike is default 14s IIRC, and usually that comes down to under 12s with high recharge
therefore,
once you can reliably proc RTS whenever you want (made possible by the method I've discovered and showcased), it means you aren't limited by stealth depletion any more. Instead, once this technique is mastered, what you want to do is actually use attacks and deplete your stealth as often as possible (!!)We know mod5 stealth is a massive "power-up" buff in terms of damage. The developers, and most of us players as well, thought that stealth depletion would limit the use of this massive damage buff. In most TR builds this is true. Even for the infamous WK/Sab using DHS, BnS and SS, you still need to be careful in dealing out your number of attacks - lest your delicate perma rotation can become messed up
This new RTS method? No need for such subtleties. Just brute force. Use all the power of stealth as you like and turn it into massive attacks. Use them all up, and then refill it right away. You don't need no careful rotations and attack management. Fire away!
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
...you can now "emulate" a Scoundrel with a Sab-based melee build.
Deft Strike-Dazing Strike: in the "queue-next power" method I've described before. If Deft Strike hits, then Dazing Strike hits automatically as well. Result is as follows:
■ enemy is slowed
■ enemy is dazed smack in front of your nose
■ instant refill, so you have full stealth meter
■ ...and your at-will is DF...
As you can imagine, your target is impaired and unmoving right before your nose in melee range. So DF1, DF2, and then the mighty stealth-flurry -- this is guaranteed. And unlike the Scoundrel, which can do this every 15s, a Sab can do this move every 11s since with some recharge Deft Strike is 11s, and Dazing Strike only 8.
Even better: a Scoundrel does this move but he's never guaranteed he has stealth at the end of the move. For Sab's, its guaranteed.
As always, will see if I can come up with some vids.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Example RoT: Every X seconds, dealing encounter power damage to an enemy while you have under Y% stealth you will regenerate Z% stealth. The cooldown is doubled while marked for PVP and requires that you be behind your target.
Note: This change would greatly increase the usability in PVE, while just not allowing you to spam it in PVP. Perhaps the stealth amount doesn't even need to be changed when paired with the below change to SO. The stealth cap for use would be in place to prevent accidental misfires(using up the feat before you want it to) and to prevent you from wasting some of your potential stealth(you have 90% stealth and it regenerates 25%, making you lose out on 15%).
Example SO: When you deal damage from stealth, you deal an additional X% of your weapon damage as Piercing Damage. This damage is [halved or quartered] on at-wills.
Note: Just to prevent using fast at-wills to spam out SO's high damage. Perhaps the lower damage on at-wills only works in PVP, leaving PVE untouched.
Whatever way, if they decide to nerf this they should REALLY make it a pvp based nerf. TRs really don't need nerfs to their PVE, again.
Those at-wills powers are that adjusted that they have weaker dmg than other classes at-wills, or they are slower if their dmg is strong. If they did this exaggerated stealth depletion they would have to increase cloud of steel dmg at least by 200-300%. From what i've heard, cause i'm not interested in playing wk, disheartening dmg is good enough even if you did this exaggerated stealth depletion.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
So yeah, have fun with this until it gets fixed.
Edit: Realized that this bug has nothing to do with deft strike.
Edit2: Removed some misinformation due to Preview server not resetting my build immediately after respec. Sorry.
I'm sabotour spec and yes you can stealth and re-stealth quite easily but it does not stop the enemy from killing you if they want too.
Post a video of two teams with equal gearscores and then I'll believe its overpowered.
Currently executioner lets you do an crazy amount of burst damage which you can use to 1 or 2 shot players in pvp. Whenever there is a executioner rogue in the match they always top of the list.
Kinda sucks when my guardian fighter gets hit twice and is dead.
Now that it's gone... ROFL... guess what happens with an updated version that utilizes new powers and traits of mod6... specifically speaking, guess what happens when there's a WK/Sabo that uses the following traits as one big rollup of synergy... as you read the following, try imagine the effects...
(1) the new mainhand with a boost to CoS damage + 25% slow
(2) the new offhand augment that applies a +50% slow to new class feature OD
(3) the new class feature OD -- mild piercing damage to all at-wills, activates with CA(combat advantage)
(4) Advantageous Positioning, which extends your CA up to 8 seconds even out of stealth
(5) Shadowy Opportunity piercing damage to your attacks
(6) let's also throw in a couple of Red Dragon Glyphs
...add all of the above, to the insta-stealth-on-demand capability of this build -- the whole point of this build is for attacking in stealth non-stop, by not giving a darn about stealth depletion. since whenever you're out of stealth you can instantly go back into it.
So every CoS shot I throw is applied auto-crit damage, CA damage, SO damage, OD damage, Glyph damage, is hurled non-stop, slows the opponent down to a crawl and he can't even escape, and on top of that I don't have any stealth downtime at all.
...and the fools used to think "permadaze" from Scoundrels are OP... ROFLtheFek
The slow is worthless if enemy have the elven battle enchant.
most people are running negation currently.
What happens is the same that happens in the video link presented at page 1, my opening post...with the difference being the target dies about twice as faster than in the video, and I still don't need any stupid "permastealthing tools" like Tenacious Concealment or BnS to gain stealth. Take special notice of how Deft Strike -> Wicked Reminder refills my stealth to 100% every time.
Like said, the only reason this insane build went dead for a while was because of the 2 second reveal. With that gone, it's this stupid shi* all over again. DC? OP? Defenses? Buffs? 150k HP? Doesn't matter. I rob them blind with CoS shots that hurt like hell, non stop flinging, and there's nothing anyone can do anything about it (except another TR).
I'll try and post a recent video if I can make one.
The dmg with OD + AP passives is good but it's not gonna work in pvp as you dont have anything which would prevent your stealth lose from dmg, and it takes only 1 afk paladin with radiance aura (it can have up to 40' range) to ruin your stealth. This build can work only situations where you can avoid taking dmg to prevent stealth lose. (that's how i see it)
I will wait for your movie, hopefully full pvp match and maybe it will convince me, but so far i dont find it "that" good. Also while testing this WK - Sab build i run in to a bug which made my stealth regen bar stuck at 90%. I couldnt make it go up even with Shadow Strike (it persisted after combat finished and only reloging solved it)
Just for the record, i've been playing Paladin lately and if find it a lot more impactful than TR, despite lack of stealth and huge dmg. I have 2 normal passives + 2 from paragon path which:
- reduce dmg of all enemies within 40' range by 12.5%
- increase dmg resist of me and all allies within 40' by 12.5%
+ Paragon passive: When no allies is within 30' all foes have their movement speed reduced by 25% and take 5% dmg from all sources
+ Paragon passive: Allies who are within 30's for more than 6s receive 25% of my Power stat.
All of this, because im standing afk in the middle of the flag. I dont even have to use any ability. Let say that i wasn't so lazy and decided to press some buttons. If you come within 80' range i can place holy mark on you which reduces your dmg done by 10% and increase your dmg taken by 10%, stack up to 3 times. 12s charge refile time and 16s duration at rank 4. If that wasnt enough, I can just hit you with Oath Strike (at will attack) and you will deal -75% less dmg to other targets for 3s. My daily power which i took at lvl4 does 50-60k dmg at rank 3 (at rank 4 it will be additional +15% dmg) with less than 1k item level. (while my TR SE rank 4 deal 15-20k with 1.6k item lvl). Let's not even mention that i can generate stupid amount of bonus HP and heal + cleanse allies for 6-12k every 9s, or that for 20s (with daily power) I can redirect 100% of the dmg they take and reduce this dmg taken by 80% for myself.
The most important part is that TR and dps spec in general need lot's of expensive items to actually deal dmg, while sh.ts like tanks or healers can be useful or even game breaking even with very cheap and easy to get items.
Vid. The opponents quit after 6 mins or so.
https://youtu.be/XCXGNiuNPzY
I saw some decent sustain dmg, but it still make me wonder how much of this dmg was from gear gap. Don't get me wrong i appreciate that you picked some solo fights too, but how does this build do against team that is facerolloing enemies as much as your team did in this video.
It's definitely more forgiving then MI because you dont have to rely so much landing 20s cd LB, though i still think it's easy to counter if enemy team is aware what weakness this build has.
Also as a friendly tip: It would make it more interesting if you'd show your items at the begining, enchants, etc, so players will be aware how stacked (or not) your toon is.
Another good thing is enabling chat and combat selt window if your PC allows you to.
Gear gap doesn't mean much, since I've been able to do the same to some of the more 'famous' people around, if you get what I mean. Ofcourse, the general difficulty of maintaining permastealth has increased than compared to what it was like in mod5, and fighting against mod-6 standard BiS guys with mythic level gear and rank 10+ enchants does take some more effort. But I can assure you if it's the regular 'premade' level of competition we're talking about, it works against them as well. Usually, when I happen to meet one of those guys, it's not build/gear problems per se which gives me trouble, but rather the fact those people always have a horde of smart teammates ready to cover their arses, whilst I'm usually alone. Ah the life of a solo-queuer.
I've currently got 3/4 pieces of lv70 PvP gear, all my enchants are usually around rank8, none of my artifacts have reached lv70 mythic status, and I've only just got the new main/offhand artiquipments to legendary by feeding it the old dragony stuff.