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GWF of Mediocrity
abletto
Member Posts: 34
First of all, let me just say... this is not a thread about complaining. I want to put fourth some ideas for discussion. I won't talk about nerfing. I won't talk about buffing. Mostly I'd like to talk about class role and viability. Hopefully everyone agrees and will continue the preemptive.
So we all know Mod 5 has had quite a few issues. There's a lot of raging and a lot of sudden spikes in balance issues. Well, I main GWF and have done so for quite some time. It's a class I really love to play, and yes I do have others. I've enjoyed the fact that GWF has been for the most part of Neverwinter one of the more offensive classes. On par with HR and CW, at least in potential.
We can also "off-tank," and tend to grab aggro fairly often. With Sprinting and Unstoppable we have some nice tools at our disposal, and it does take skill to use them in end-game content.
I knew Intimidation was balanced in Mod 5, but I couldn't care less because I don't use it. Instigator got a buff, but again, I don't use it. I'm all about single-target DPS and kiting heavy hits so my team doesn't always have to take the brunt. GWF always excelled at this sort of... not quite DPS, not quite Tank, but capable of both. In some cases I was able to get nearly as much DPS in a run as some of my guild's most offensive CWs.
That felt right. I didn't single-handedly zerg the whole dungeon. No class should. But I brought almost always the 2nd largest amount of DPS in my group, sometimes 1st. As I should considering I have 11,500 Power and 138%+ Crit Severity.
Being able to survive and off-tank for my group as well do very good damage? Difficult, but possible and I always enjoyed the challenge.
AFTER MOD 5 HOWEVER
-I'm placing 3rd and often 4th place in Paingiver every run
-Damage Received is pointless as GWF is no tank, not really
-90% of our encounters have absolutely no utility or no damage (making them obsolete to other choices) except for Restoring Strike.
Consider now that GWF has many other issues, such as HEAVILY nerfed base damage, animation delays, and our only potential for achieving meta-level DPS is agonizingly slow stack system.
I'm starting to wonder what my class is good for? There are TRs in my guild who are defense spec with bilethorn enchantment who are doing 5-10m MORE damage than I can. Oh, and they take quite a bit less damage as well. GF level? Not even close. But its way more survivability than I have and maintaining ridiculous DPS while doing so!
Now maybe its just me, but I think every class should have their use. If you aren't doing damage, you're tanking. If you're not tanking, you're buffing. Are you better at AoE nuking mobs, or crushing a boss with heavy hits?
Previously I felt GWF maintained a champion in his role. Great DPS but not the best of the best. Good survivability and solo potential, but definitely no tank. We take down bosses and kite. That's what we do.
Now? It feels like GWF brings NOTHING to the team. No buffs, no tanking, and damage as good as Mod 4 TRs. That's with heavily invested offensive stats and a year of skill in using them. One TR + GF + CW can handle whatever comes their way now.
Basically what I'm getting at, GWF is nothing but a slot filler in Mod 5. There's absolutely no reason to have a GWF in your party, when everyone else is 200-300% better at doing it, often with less Gearscore and Attack/Defense.
, or at least the ability to stack defensive stats whilst sustaining top-level DPS, that would be IMPOSSIBLE for GWF to accomplish.
All hail the Mighty Man of Mediocrity, the Great Weapon Fighter! May his reign of inadequacy last for ages!
TL;DR
1.) VERY Poor Base Damage
2.) Low RI for Stats
3.) No utility or benefit to team
4.) Overwhelming amount of useless feats/encounters/at-wills
5.) In total state of quasi-class role, i.e. Almost completely pointless in groups.
I'm not crying for a buff, I don't think there's anything horribly wrong with GWF. We were just fine in Mod 4 despite what some thought. And yet, can anyone tell me that they would want to roll a GWF right now? What reason would you have to do that?
Thoughts? Discussion?
So we all know Mod 5 has had quite a few issues. There's a lot of raging and a lot of sudden spikes in balance issues. Well, I main GWF and have done so for quite some time. It's a class I really love to play, and yes I do have others. I've enjoyed the fact that GWF has been for the most part of Neverwinter one of the more offensive classes. On par with HR and CW, at least in potential.
We can also "off-tank," and tend to grab aggro fairly often. With Sprinting and Unstoppable we have some nice tools at our disposal, and it does take skill to use them in end-game content.
I knew Intimidation was balanced in Mod 5, but I couldn't care less because I don't use it. Instigator got a buff, but again, I don't use it. I'm all about single-target DPS and kiting heavy hits so my team doesn't always have to take the brunt. GWF always excelled at this sort of... not quite DPS, not quite Tank, but capable of both. In some cases I was able to get nearly as much DPS in a run as some of my guild's most offensive CWs.
That felt right. I didn't single-handedly zerg the whole dungeon. No class should. But I brought almost always the 2nd largest amount of DPS in my group, sometimes 1st. As I should considering I have 11,500 Power and 138%+ Crit Severity.
Being able to survive and off-tank for my group as well do very good damage? Difficult, but possible and I always enjoyed the challenge.
AFTER MOD 5 HOWEVER
-I'm placing 3rd and often 4th place in Paingiver every run
-Damage Received is pointless as GWF is no tank, not really
-90% of our encounters have absolutely no utility or no damage (making them obsolete to other choices) except for Restoring Strike.
Consider now that GWF has many other issues, such as HEAVILY nerfed base damage, animation delays, and our only potential for achieving meta-level DPS is agonizingly slow stack system.
I'm starting to wonder what my class is good for? There are TRs in my guild who are defense spec with bilethorn enchantment who are doing 5-10m MORE damage than I can. Oh, and they take quite a bit less damage as well. GF level? Not even close. But its way more survivability than I have and maintaining ridiculous DPS while doing so!
Now maybe its just me, but I think every class should have their use. If you aren't doing damage, you're tanking. If you're not tanking, you're buffing. Are you better at AoE nuking mobs, or crushing a boss with heavy hits?
Previously I felt GWF maintained a champion in his role. Great DPS but not the best of the best. Good survivability and solo potential, but definitely no tank. We take down bosses and kite. That's what we do.
Now? It feels like GWF brings NOTHING to the team. No buffs, no tanking, and damage as good as Mod 4 TRs. That's with heavily invested offensive stats and a year of skill in using them. One TR + GF + CW can handle whatever comes their way now.
Basically what I'm getting at, GWF is nothing but a slot filler in Mod 5. There's absolutely no reason to have a GWF in your party, when everyone else is 200-300% better at doing it, often with less Gearscore and Attack/Defense.
, or at least the ability to stack defensive stats whilst sustaining top-level DPS, that would be IMPOSSIBLE for GWF to accomplish.
All hail the Mighty Man of Mediocrity, the Great Weapon Fighter! May his reign of inadequacy last for ages!
TL;DR
1.) VERY Poor Base Damage
2.) Low RI for Stats
3.) No utility or benefit to team
4.) Overwhelming amount of useless feats/encounters/at-wills
5.) In total state of quasi-class role, i.e. Almost completely pointless in groups.
I'm not crying for a buff, I don't think there's anything horribly wrong with GWF. We were just fine in Mod 4 despite what some thought. And yet, can anyone tell me that they would want to roll a GWF right now? What reason would you have to do that?
Thoughts? Discussion?
Post edited by abletto on
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Comments
I would LOVE a taunt mechanic. Make Sentinel's threatening rush mark give as much threat as a GF's, please.
Our at-will damage is sooooooooo sub-par, even though we have the highest weapon damage of any class. I find that really disconcerting. I hear what you're saying about feeling mediocre... but zero benefit having a gwf? Idk if there is ZERO. After my group wipes I'm almost always able to pull of clutch revives that nobody else can, or I'm able to solo the boss, and people always get a kick out of seeing me do that with my amazing 4,500 power.
Start grouping with a guild. Those people will group with you because the know, and hopefully enjoy, hanging out with you. Not because you're the most optimized class for speed running content.
Of course I'm talking about pvp, since in Pve I have no problem with 11-13k gs or more.
- Instigator (hybrid) has damage but has the worst survivability of the 3 specs. Where's the hybrid part here?..
- Desroyer (damage dealer) has all the cons of the dps classes but none of their perks.
- Sentinel (tank) has worse survivability than say HR, DC, much worse than GF (obviously), threat generation is roughly at place 6 (GF>SW>CW>TR>dps DC>GWF) even with intimidation build.
So yep, I have no idea why would someone choose to play a GWF now. Mod 4&5 made you specialize in one or another area but you suck in all.
well, but the point is: soon, and maybe not too long (see intimidation) this class will be stupid like all others. the difference is the obvious antipathy of the combat designer (it seems that the changes for gwf are always clumsy and lazy).
the gwf is "obsolete" because he was "buffed" in the "Principle of the end".
ps: swordmaster using intimidation is the most wanted? I'm really outdated about pvp.
Even my DC can dish out more DPS. GWF has an epically crapton of extremely weak powers, while my DC can spam 4 in a row that deal more aside from IBS.
4 chains in a row, and what, hit *hopefully* more than one guy with IBS.
Deep Gash nerfed to dust, CW/DC have powerful DoT procs. Yet another head scratcher.
My GF deals the least damage, but at least has a role in a party. The GWF is the bottom on the barrel.
Yeah... If my sentinel could seriously tank and generate threat, I'd be happy already. But can't do that no more
You have failed GWF's *enter season 1 Arrow*
- Destroyer, being not viable for PvP anymore, should have PvE damage buffed a lot, and survivability increased to allow him to AoE melee in dungeons
- Sentinel should have damage reduced further and not linked to intimidation anymore, but tankyness increased with, for example, a buff to regeneration. I'd say intimidation doing half your power NO chance to crit, flat damage affected by DR, DRI and nothing else. Healing depression decreased by 60% through capstone. Tankyness through regeneration. Balance to make them less DPS (intimidation still hits like a truck), way behind a destroyer or a instigator, and more of a tank/ CC melee fighter.
- Instigator almost fine should have deflect chance buff and determination gain buff to make it a true hybrid tank/DPS for PvP.
GFs got a buff from their CON (module 4)
TRs recently got a buff from their DEX
so I think its fair to get a buff from our main stat too.
Yes that is the single largest thing that irks me to no end. Why do my CW's encounters deal MORE damage than my GWFs? I have 11.5k Power and my CW has 6.4k, yet the only Encounter we get that crits over 25k is IBS/Determination, and I can clearly see huge difference in base encounter damage just looking at tooltip. There's some crippling going on here and I don't really understand. GWF should have GOOD single-target DPS, but that doesnt work well in PvP it only benefits PvE gameplay. So they've cut our heads off.
Alot of good and valid points here. Sentinel definitely does need better taunt mechanics. Destroyer needs huge re-work to base stats. Instigator... I won't even go there.
Currently we're stuck at the same option we've always had: Glass Cannon or Kite Tank. Let's face it, nobody really hybrids. Gear and feats do not support the attempt unless you WANT mediocrity. Sure you need to stack your Defense/HP even if you are a Destroyer but that doesnt mean you'll be tanking Golem hits in eLoL with ease. Hence Kite Tank, and I used to be Sentinel so I know its a valid playstyle but I could never keep aggro long enough to put my stats to use.
ANYWAY, as I was saying in my first post, GWF was mostly just fine in Mod 4. Yes, even considering the horrible encounters and crippling base damage. I fit my role just as well as I did in Mod 2 and 3 and excelled in every run. Even in Mod 5 I think GWF has the best sustain of any class. If my group suddenly lost its DPS my damage would (slowly) begin to overtake theirs, albeit lots of intense kiting involved. But timeline:
~ Suddenly everyone gets these huge class reworks and buffs, well TR/DC anyway. Others were good already and not much changed for them.
~ GWFs now struggling to do well at anything no matter the playstyle or gearscore
~ TRs now fill the role of Single-Target DPS (Which aside from CWs using the correct rotation was previously slotted by GWFs)
Conclusion? GWF is just not on-par anymore. Fix our trees, make them useful again! Better yet, fix our totally useless encounters and give us more options with them.
P.S.
I agree Tribulationx, I'm not saying GWF is complete and utter trash and a total waste of time. That's not the point. The point is that its 3x more expensive and difficult for GWF to get anywhere near the usefulness that a class with 5k less gearscore can accomplish with ease. It begs the question: what are we actually trying to accomplish with our GWFs and then why are we so sub-par at all of it?
I disagree with your Sentinel suggestions. He already has the lowest base damage among all classes there is no need to bring him down any further. In fact, he could use a boost. Whereas intimidation could use a roof for base damage. I suggest 300% weapon damage.
As for tanking, sentinel needs not buff to regeneration. He needs ways to reduce damage or prolong unstoppable state. I have no issues regenerating health but I go nuts when I lose half my hp from one hit from a trash monster... and 90% from a hardly dodge-able boss attack... (ToS boss hand blast)
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?785661-Destroyer-spec-swordmaster-gwf-bottom-line-of-PvE/page4
the suggested method - if I am correct, explain why the game is increasingly unbalanced - is dps a immortal dummie for 5 minutes and measure the amount of damage(?), disregarding:
1 - the actual life time of monsters, which is, today, +/- 10 sec (so the important thing is the amount of damage you do in this short period.)
2 - radius-emancipation.
3 - the time it currently takes a destroyer to accumulate all these stacks which is basically the nature of the tree.
The second problem is a bit more complex, and requires a certain willingness to understand:
I think this terminology "tank, controller, range" only confuses what is objective. what matters here is the average of:
A - How long am I able - actively - to resist the enemy considering the number / danger / allies.
X
B - how long do I need (and can) resist these enemies before they kill them.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?783551-Easy-fix-for-Intimidation/page3
it is impossible to measure(theoretically). then theoretically- for the dev - gwf have damage (single and "aoe"), some cc, some resistance. so... "is fine".
"why are we so sub-par at all of it?" in practice is that.
ps: yes, intimidation+sentinel is a poor solution for that. but gwf players are purists, so...
the best intimidation fix, imho, is based on armor - tanks have more armor and that would make it more effective for tanks
so armor stacking ppl would have this skills damage stacking from pure armor while dps oriented builds would get damage from strength/power bonus
threat multiplier should be increased
also there should be some reduction vs players like 50% dmg to players
Basing it on def would be far worse for the GWF, due to diminishing returns. You don't really need more than 3k def, anything above that is pretty much wasted and could be better off invested into HP. So let's assume you base intimidation damage on 100% of def: ppl will start making 30k hp, 6k def builds and roll the same as in mod 4. Make it 50% and intimidation becomes no longer viable for the most players and restricted to premades, as new/casual players can hardly reach even 3k def. Thus, it should be based on a stat that is available to everyone and which can't reach insane levels. I think weapon damage is the right stat in this place.
As for 50% dmg to players? Aren't you getting overboard with that? With 300% weapon damage, vorpal, mark, pierced armor, max weapon damage roll (since it varies from 8xx to 1051) you could crit for ~15k damage with intimidation at 10k power. Which means that PvP based builds will survive at least 3 non-deflected crit hits. And you want 7.5k crits through intimidation, 2.5k ~ 3.75k from deflected crit, 2k-3k from non crit, and 1k - 1.5k from deflected non crit? Whereas pretty much any other class is capable of 1 shotting or at the very least - 1 rotationing. Even without crits. Let's be poor but fair, shall we?
Also, I'd like to reinforce another point. GWF is primary a damage dealer, not a tank. Sentinel is a secondary tank and by that design should also be either secondary controler / support (but GWF has pretty much no viable control or support skills so we can discard that) or secondary damage dealer. Meaning he should deal less damage than pure DDs but more than pure tanks / support classes. Currently, at 9k power I deal roughly half of the damage DD classes do and 50%-100% (depending on their build) more damage compared to GF. I think that's a pretty balanced spot. And thus the 300% weapon damage suggestion.
i see intimidation as pve not pvp power, for pvp it feels lame and skillless
Whereas I find runner GWFs an abomination and not how I envision a GWF should be. But hey, I don't go around asking to break their legs now do I? Intimidation needs toning down, especially at the high end, but not making it into another Not So Fast encounter that no-one knew still exists.
My damage output really isn't even that great, and it's not relevant when I can't agro anything.
Too true . It seems like every new mod gwf takes a hit and is then thrown a bone which is then taken away all together or nerfed to uselessness (Intimidation 50% to 35% , takedown , threatening rush etc). Its like every mod the mediocre gwf has to be brought to heel . When I started playing my understanding was gwf was an aoe class to take on adds and off tank a boss , then why do the other classes designed for that purpose not suffer the 5 target cap gwf does . How is a gwf suppose to hold any aggro when he hits five targets in a mob that the cw,sw,hr has hit all of them , where are the adds going to run to . A gwf has to be in the thick of it to do any damage and frankly doesn't do enough damage to survive being there from lifesteal . I have friends that play CW's that are more of a tank than any gwf , with 17% lifesteal doing 20k to every add in the area they heal instantly everytime they use an encounter power . Frankly its sad , in a dungeon the gwf almosts has to chase adds now , they are ignored because they run to the cw's , sw's and hr's that are doing damage (ie.threat) . Even the 'official' forums list the gwf as a dps class , that is a joke . They aren't a dps class , a tank , healer , or boss burner , they are an obsolete class with no place in a party . I don't have the time and am not going to dump any cash into starting over with a different class that has a role , maybe by the time gwf is completely neutered Fallout 5 will come out .
Really, the gwf a lot of usefull skill for deal massive damage in aoe and single target
The gwf are a off-tank class not a pure dps class like trickster.
ask to dev for more defensive skill not for more damag skill. I see gwf deal 200.000 on single target
So what - a cw does 200 k without even having to be near the target.
The problem is to balance the class.
If the Cw's strike deal 200k is wrong, and it is not a good chance to justify the bug of your feats.
Let's talk about a fix.
i hate runners 2, imho gwf should play like in mod2 minus the OP stuff like old TR and Gash, or mod3 minus
Destroyer IS pure dps build, i dont see what else u could do as melee class with 21k hp 30% DR and no immunity frames
150k~200k dmg is a crit@140%+ severity(75+15from feats and 50 from vorpal+boons and pets) on a slow, high CD single target(mostly, since the aoe is pathetic) skill and that damage is only after you get 289572985 stacks and monster is debuffed, with no stacks, no debuffs ive hit as low as 7k on normal mobs @ 10k power and legendary weapon. and that is the only damage encounter GWF has, all other gwf encounters are trash(unless you have intimidation)
for the rare occasions i play i run intimidation/executioner without capstones since its about enough to wipe a group of normal mobs for dailies
1 - explain why, in pve, gwf are off tank. just to start. before starting to discuss, i want to know if the person knows at least one name of encounter.
2 the gwf is an off tank class.
Don't understand the question
ps: I've done a non-critical 180k. you do not have to teach, you have to learn. but first: why gwf are off tank?
please... stop to try this...
You have no idea what you're talking about. The only offtank build is sentinel, and even so he's extremely bad at it atm. Instigator is damage dealer with hybrid gameplay and destroyer is pure damage dealer.
If i'm wrong, no problem i'll learn something new about this game^^
Though I dont use ACT im pretty sure my cw - with 2 k less power than my gwf - can out dps my gwf even on single targets!
She cant do 300 k+ crits, but she got eye of the storm, so can crit as she pleases. Her ice knife can do close to 300 k (it probably can go above 300K just havent had the right buff debuff stacking yet) and even icy rays can go above 200 k in rare cases.
Since my GWF should excel in single target dmg - I always look the dps before entering a fight with the final boss.
And though I often do best - and should since im mostly 2-5 k more gs than the rest of the party. I do however way to often find myself outdpsed in the boss fight by basically every other dps class. Even if they have 4 k less power and 4 k less gs. If they know how to make the most of their class - GWF cant beat them. I regularly do the double dps of other GWF's btw.
Basically GWF risk becoming the new TR - we are living on the merits of the past right now. But maybe in some months people will be writing "lfm - no GWF" in /lfg .