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Module 5 Devoted Cleric Discussion Thread
ambisinisterr
Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
Hey guys,
Please keep all of your theorycrafting and general discussions for Devoted Clerics in this thread.
The Official Feedback Threads are only to give your feedback directly to the developers. Do not debate your opinions or feedback with others or discuss what new strategies may work better within the Official Feedback Threads.
The more clutter and off topic posts there are the harder it will be for the developers to read, compile and react to your much appreciated feedback.
Please keep all of your theorycrafting and general discussions for Devoted Clerics in this thread.
The Official Feedback Threads are only to give your feedback directly to the developers. Do not debate your opinions or feedback with others or discuss what new strategies may work better within the Official Feedback Threads.
The more clutter and off topic posts there are the harder it will be for the developers to read, compile and react to your much appreciated feedback.
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The main reason people slot Sunburst atm is because of its utility. In mod 5, due to how divine power is generated and thanks to the Divine Glow changes and (indirect) AP gain nerf as a result of Hallowed Ground/Divine Armor/Anointed Army change, Sunburst has all but completely lost its usefulness. Divine Glow already does everything the old Sunburst does and more.
This is the reason why we have the new Sunburst - essentially a control/knockback power that doubles as an AoE DoT. For all intents and purposes the new Sunburst should be treated as a very different power from the old Sunburst. There will be a getting used-to phase and more than a few new players will probably get berated for spamming Sunburst in normal Cloak Tower, but that will pass.
Now you may not see the value of this power atm, but when you realize that in mod 5 that the devs have essentially nerfed mitigation - most likely because of idiots claiming they want more old school healing instead of automatic damage reduction - and among other things have taken away feats like Healing Step and Divine Advantage (not to mention the changes on powers like Forgemaster's Flame and Astral Shield), then you'll probably grow to appreciate the new Sunburst for what is was designed for.
is the new DC need recovery anymore?
it will be hard to reduce the 4k I have
It's not really healthy to think of this as a Sunburst "change", especially given how the mod 5 Divine Glow works. It would be more appropriate to think of the mod 5 Sunburst as a completely new (control-based) power. I guess you could think of it as the devs giving us a unique version of the CW's Repel.
Perhaps the devs should just rename the skill "Lightburst" or "Sun Blast" or "that new 'get off of me' DC power" to get the point across.
The problem is that this is anti-group. For the new player who has NO ALTS. It's Cloak Tower at level 15, when your real heal is a KNOCKBACK. How can the developers be THIS BRAIN DEAD?!
It really won't make a difference in Castle Never for my farm groups at 16 k. And in solo play at that level it's just a re-ordering of buttons. But this is one of those changes that makes a game inaccessible to new players who now can't mass heal their first dungeon as a Healer. I mean, think back to those days when this Cleric was your first character. Think to the abuse you took when you knocked back the enemy from the few Melee attacks low-level Melee players had. Clerics will be unwanted and mass-kicked as a result of this.
Does Cyptic want this game to DIE?!
1) Co-op group play is only a puny percentage of the play experience while leveling.
2) Leveling players will learn quickly when to knock-back or not during group play.
3) Leveling players will swap out Sunburst for a *better* Encounter power when it becomes available.
4) It likely cannot be changed back because of the technical nature of how stuff works now.
Seriously: the whole "it doesn't work in group play" is a tired misleading cliché now. If that's your best argument then you're not "getting it" with regard to the *entirely new* Devoted Cleric mechanics.
So far I am enjoying all of the new DC, save for an easier way to know when I have empowerment stacks, how many, and when they expire. Other than that everything is awesome once you get used to it. If you're still harping on the Sunburst subject you're not going to do well on the new learning curve because you don't know how to let go of depreciated irrelevant play styles and embrace the newer, better relevant styles.
No matter what they do to Sunburst (change it back or leave it) you *will* have to relearn how to play the DC effectively. Because it is an entirely new learning process the whole Sunburst debate is really a moot point. Even if they change it back, you are still going to use something else for the utility and power Sunburst *used* to have.
Saw some DC using it in the tiamat fight. It ruined my control and dps. People want mobs together, not far apart. That's why singularity was a very popular option before they gave it a target cap making oppressive force a more effective control and damage (which it always had) option. Of course I still did fine defending the clerics, but I would've preferred solo defending them.
Seriously for the most part, just don't use sunburst. Especially if you want DCs to be wanted on teams. Bad experiences are enough to blacklist the class. That's why no-one wanted HRs at first in pve even if some of them were actually good.
Any kind of knockback that isn't pushing adds off cliffs is just generally bad. Divine sunburst gave you the emergency option, now you don't have that versatility.
As others have said, the DC is fundamentally changed. If you don't want to knockback, consider using a different encounter (or the divine version).
Some of the main reasons for using sunburst on live: knockback, divinity gain, ap gain, proccing feats (rising hope, linked spirit, divine advantage, etc).
We no longer get divinity gain from sunburst. The AP gain was nerfed a long time ago. Those feats no longer exist. Thus, the skill IS now effectively a skill used for knockback. Removing this removes the point of the encounter. It'd be like taking the push away from Repel.
I suggest knockback should be added back to divine sunburst, and leave the empowered and normal versions as-is. I suspect the reason knockback was removed from divine sunburst is because it'd be counter-productive; multiple divine versions wouldn't stack the dot, since the enemies would be pushed out of range. Perhaps this means the dot could be replaced with some cc immunity seconds for allies in range, and then let us keep the knockback in divine.
Suggestion: give us an AOE at-will to speed up divinity gain when nothing can be targeted (i.e. perma tr).
Iyon the Dark
I go to the new area and approach a mob pack. What I have slotted is. Chains, sunburst, divine glow. The 1st problem am I facing is the fact that even if you just build divinity with at-wills, you still gain divinity to slowly (Increasing this by % would go a long way). Ok back to the adds. On my encounter bar, I need to decide which encounters to use in normal mode, which to use in divine mode, and which encounter should benefit from the empowered mode.
Lets say I have 2 pips on my divine bar, 1st im going to cast chains in divine bar+divine glow following that for the damage effects it gives me, rapidly after that I use DG in normal(empowered) mode for the HOT and then followed by a direct chains to stun them. Now this is where my conundrum comes in, I have sunburst slotted (Sunburst in divine mode is great, especially with the DOT it gives). Now if I use sunburst directly after that combo it scatters the adds away from me, which is the problem, now the adds is all over the place and its really annoying. Now if you have a friend/guild what ever playing along with you and he/she is melee class, and if you scatter the adds all over the place, they are going to be annoyed by this fact.
Now back to the the point of the comment. You mentioned that we should use other encounters. Ok lets list them. Most DC's played with AOE encounters to maximize the overall damage that we do, single target damage is not going to works on a group of adds. So what encounters do we have left that is AOE that I did not mention. Dauntinglight and searing light. The AOE of dauntling in divine mode is so under powered that it is not worth using anymore, and DL in normal mode the casting time is so long, and the AOE is so small that you have good chance of missing if the adds decides to move. So if that means that if I'm constantly going to miss due to the fact of the long casting time and small AOE, I rather not slot it. Now SL, the amount of dismal damage this encounter does and any mode doesn't make it worth using.
So out of 5 AOE encounters that we have the choices is very small. Either you suffer the knockback of sunburst, or you suffer the long casting, small or AOE area of DL or you go with SL for the dismal small damage. That is why we are asking for the knockback to be either taken away from normal mode or change is some manner that we can use sunburst in normal mode.
That is my experience from my testing on the preview server. Tried sunburst in PVP (I'm not a PVP player) I'm a 20K DC with decent stats. With all the new AOE HOT encounter we got now with the feats boosting it effects, nobody is really going to slot sunburst anyways. But if you decide to use sunburst it will be negated by the other peoples tenacity. So basically it won't help at all. So it if won't help you why slot it. If it wasn't effected by other people's tenacity then I would have said yes it is worth it, but if they can replace the knockback effect with something else like a daze, stun. It will be viable in PVP/PVE, or like someone else mention only put knockback in the empowered version of sunburst, that way you can get DOT in divine, just normal damage and heal from normal mode and knockback in your empowered way. I think that would be the best solution overall.
True later you can unslot and forget it, it is shame however that we are loosing this spell.
The knockback in normal mode basically kills Sunburst for pve, and we are also loosing another popular spell - forgemaster's flame, which was only worth using because of its heal.
AoE stun would be nice, but it better lasts at least 3 seconds.
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
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Anyway, for me personally.. I dont have much issue for the switch of knockback. But my only concern is that I dont know why they need to remove the healing part of sunburst in divine mode. This is one of the spells that i find that synergizing very well with our Repurpose Soul feat.. The only spell we can SPAM freely without much targeting..
Although the healing of sunburst is somewhat minor to begin with.. it's kind of something that i miss alot .
Now the situation is that, even if we crit during the divine sunburst, there's no Repurpose Soul... only a weird stacking DoT which activate after 3 seconds
I don't think so. And as for the comment about reaching level 30 before able to swap-out - that's fine. My point is simply this: Knock-back (in any form) is a great solo tool for ranged classes, especially the DC - most leveling players are solo during leveling with a sprinkling of Skirmish and DD. (This part is generally addressed to any reader):By level 30 newer players are learning/have learned that knock-back must be used with great care while in co-op group play. Give them some intellectual credit, okay?
I agree with you on this and here's the thing: SB is just a tool. They've basically removed two of the tool's utilities (healing/debuff) - which renders the 'default' version as nothing more than a light show with mediocre damage. Literally. So they added the knock-back so it at least does *something* in default mode.
If they were to revert it back to the current type: knock-back on Divinity only - then they have to replace the additional utility of the default version with *something* - be it extra damage, healing, something. This means basically nothing more than setting it backward to what it is right now on live. Not to mention they cannot add the knock-back to the divinity version - because of zero cooldown, meaning it's only useful *once* and the second two bursts (to build Empowerment) are a complete waste of time and resources rendering the new SB just as useless as it is now (according to some). Personally I'd rather have the knock-back ability as the default mode of SB than lose it altogether. It's the only CC we have.
*People will adapt*. I genuinely predict the accidental mob-throwing will not happen any more often than it does right now on live. Sure it will happen, people do boo-boos all the time. So I believe the argument proffered that the new mechanic will mess-up co-op group play any more than it is right now on Live is non-sequitur.
Hence, attempting to change SB from what it is right now (default knock-back) is an exercise in futility. Unless it is left as the only encounter power to be completely *unchanged* in Mod 5, making it horribly inconsistent with every other encounter power.
So the solution is NOT to revert the default knock-back. The solution is to leave it as is and for people to simply add that encounter power's mechanics into their learning curve of new play-style for the new class (that's what it is, folks: a new class).
I also agree with this. it was a great little encounter to fire-off in between fights to just top-off ones self and others. But now even THAT is useless. This is why I am trying to bring logic to those wanting the reversion of the Encounter to realize, through logic, that reverting any part of SB just is not really a viable option in any way.
We all hate change because relearning something different than what it was previously agitates our comfort level; it's not always fun. But change it must be.
TL;DR: My general point being: if you have to relearn everything anyway, what difference does it make whether SB works the old way or the new way: you still have to relearn everything. So, in my purview, the debate about old SB versus new SB is, in the end, a moot point.
So here's what I see regarding the NEW SunBurst:
Currently:
SB Default: Knock-back, a little bit of damage.
SB Divinity: a little bit of damage, build Empowerment stacks.
Empowered version (who cares at this point).
The entire debate seems centered around the Knock-back affect. I personally like knock-back as a tool for CC, one of our only ones (save Chains, etc.) - as a ranged squishy I'd rather blast mobs away from me when I am overcrowded. Unless I am in a party and doing so will be a detriment to them (but I wouldn't need to if they are doing their (class-specific) jobs.)
Current SB on LIVE:
SB Default: Heal, mini-damage, mini debuff.
SB Divinity: Same-same with knock-back.
SB Empowerment (doesn't exist.)
So let us do a little reversion exercise here.
Revert will get us this:
SB Default: mini-damage. Full stop. Oh, pretty light show.
SB Divinity: knock-back, build ONE stack of Empowerment.
(Next two bursts do NOTHING to ANYONE; all scattered; waste to bother with it hence.)
SB Empowered: One stack of Empowerment to use, no matter how or what you do with SB.
Hence, the only answer is to move knock-back to Empowered mode or remove it entirely:
SB Default: SB Default: mini-damage. Full stop. Oh, pretty light show.
SB Divinity: Mini debuff, build stacks, spam up to three.
SB Empowered: Knock-back.
SCENARIO:
I'm swamped with melee mobs and adds in boss fight, need. to. knock-back. NOW. Wait.... At wills to build divinity (3 seconds), spam Divinity anything to build Empowerment stacks (3 seconds), FINALLY go to use Empowered SB, oh, never mind. DEAD ALREADY.
Hence the thing with knock-back in SunBurst leaves only two solutions: Leave it in the default mode and ADAPT as a player, OR remove it entirely because SB will actually be a lot more useless than it is now, forcing you to ADAPT to other Encounters anyway. Which you need to do regardless of the default SB set-up. So why punish everyone else?
The only feasible answer to that is to revert SB to what it is now on Live. Making it the *only* encounter to not change at all in Mod 5, which would create a massive inconsistency and confusion among all the updated encounter powers.
So regarding any kind of knock-back (which is a function I WANT as a tool): How do you give me knock-back and still revert SB back to no knock-back on default? Serious question.
Those who don't like the default implementation are very quick to say "remove the knock-back" but are not thinking about how it would affect the Divinity version of SB or where to put that affect so those of us who want it can use it. Where do you put it and how will I access it in a pinch when I need it?
The Devs answer of putting it (knock-back affect) into the default SunBurst Encounter strikes me as the best option because the only real change in the Encounter power for players to adapt to (regarding THAT affect) is a simple reversal between default and Divinity. Anything else makes the learning curve a lot more complicated than it needs to be. Unless you want to punish me and every other player in the entire game who loves a knock-back (in any capacity/Encounter) by removing it entirely?
EDIT TO UPDATE: THIS post was in the Official DC Feedback forum - apparently it was MOVED to this forum for some reason or another, I was not notified that this happened or why (I usually get a courtesy PM from a Mod or something). I just wanted to clarify for readers that this is not my attempt at flooding this thread. THIS comment was MOVED HERE.