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GWF sprint mechanic and other non tanky DPS
doriangreigh
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 707 Arc User
I don't know if people just don't know how to play a GWF but i'm getting really sick of seeing them running all over the place, maybe they are doing a lot of damage but the fact they seem to run in circles (much like my issue with people fighting the dragons) its like everyone playing a GWF is thinking they are in a FPS where circle strafing is helpful. Circle strafing in this game is NOT helpful.
For all you who don't know, what is helpful for a group is keeping mobs in place or facing away from (squishier) dps so that dps can do their job, GWF might be dps but they are also melee and when no tank is around its pretty much the job of GWF to at least try to face mobs away from squishier dps.
It seems the new run mechanics have done nothing but make GWF run around the screen until they have no sprint left. I don't' know why, as I play my GWF I don't have to run around as much and i'm destroyer spec so not even super tanky. Sure you have to move but there is no reason to move all over the screen or in huge circles around a boss. Does anyone know how to just move to the side a little bit and then move back?
Why did we give HR this huge damage burst or rating and no capacity to deal with having mob aggro. Thinking that the HR needs some sort of aggro dump. The alternative is for people to play HR in a manner that does damage but doesn't steal aggro thereby causing a nice organized slaying to turn into a disorganized party wipe.
I can't say how many times i've witnessed a boss or elite mob log on to HR and then all the other smaller mobs along with it and then HR start dodging or marauding all over the place trying to get away from being hit turning a nice clustered up group into a scattered mess.
I'd like to note that I realize you have to move around the field but all too often the mobs are grouped up in a nice manner that would make for easy dispatching and then the HR with some stupid notion of needing to attack first spreads them all over the place (yippee split shot still gets a lot of aggro) or the GWF starts running around like his sprint increases his damage output and the mobs just kinda scatter all over, then if there is a CW that can group them back up the GWF just seems insistant on using something like FLS to scatter them all over the place instead of letting them pile up in a nice neat cluster for mass extermination.
Perhaps people are not aware of this, but just because your power isn't on CD does NOT mean you have to use it right then and there. Just because you are ranged does NOT mean you should be the one to initiate a combat sequence ... IF there is melee in the group they should be the ones to start combat. Even a TR can start combat effectively. As much as people say they suck for pvp but when a TR is stealth and attacks all the mobs stand around with question marks above there heads allow for a nice rotation of death or time to group them up for a healthy dosing of death.
When an HR attacks first mobs run all over chasing after the now panicked HR who can't take the aggro and hits. As a CW I know that it can just happen that way. I know there are crazy people out there with super high gs that seem to think their only contributing value as a player is their stupidly high damage number (which is gained from them attack all mobs first before anyone can).
***thoughts more of a rhetorical nature ... musings if you will***
Is there any way that would be viable to implement in game so way to get the player base to stop being so self centered in how they play? Is there anyway that can get people to get away from the "I did 50million damage this run so shut up" mentality? I'd say get rid of the damage tracker in skirmish and dungeon runs but lots of people use parcing programs, which in a past MMO was actually used to discriminate against people who didn't put forth "good number".
Don't get me wrong, clearly there are people that don't have any interest in building up a character (empty enchantment slots and lack of artifacts is a clear indication of that) and thus deserve to be shunned to some extent, after all who wants to waste time on someone who is not putting forth effort. But to ultimately discriminate because someone doesn't have R9 enchantments and the "1 and only" class build is excessive in the other extreme.
For all you who don't know, what is helpful for a group is keeping mobs in place or facing away from (squishier) dps so that dps can do their job, GWF might be dps but they are also melee and when no tank is around its pretty much the job of GWF to at least try to face mobs away from squishier dps.
It seems the new run mechanics have done nothing but make GWF run around the screen until they have no sprint left. I don't' know why, as I play my GWF I don't have to run around as much and i'm destroyer spec so not even super tanky. Sure you have to move but there is no reason to move all over the screen or in huge circles around a boss. Does anyone know how to just move to the side a little bit and then move back?
Why did we give HR this huge damage burst or rating and no capacity to deal with having mob aggro. Thinking that the HR needs some sort of aggro dump. The alternative is for people to play HR in a manner that does damage but doesn't steal aggro thereby causing a nice organized slaying to turn into a disorganized party wipe.
I can't say how many times i've witnessed a boss or elite mob log on to HR and then all the other smaller mobs along with it and then HR start dodging or marauding all over the place trying to get away from being hit turning a nice clustered up group into a scattered mess.
I'd like to note that I realize you have to move around the field but all too often the mobs are grouped up in a nice manner that would make for easy dispatching and then the HR with some stupid notion of needing to attack first spreads them all over the place (yippee split shot still gets a lot of aggro) or the GWF starts running around like his sprint increases his damage output and the mobs just kinda scatter all over, then if there is a CW that can group them back up the GWF just seems insistant on using something like FLS to scatter them all over the place instead of letting them pile up in a nice neat cluster for mass extermination.
Perhaps people are not aware of this, but just because your power isn't on CD does NOT mean you have to use it right then and there. Just because you are ranged does NOT mean you should be the one to initiate a combat sequence ... IF there is melee in the group they should be the ones to start combat. Even a TR can start combat effectively. As much as people say they suck for pvp but when a TR is stealth and attacks all the mobs stand around with question marks above there heads allow for a nice rotation of death or time to group them up for a healthy dosing of death.
When an HR attacks first mobs run all over chasing after the now panicked HR who can't take the aggro and hits. As a CW I know that it can just happen that way. I know there are crazy people out there with super high gs that seem to think their only contributing value as a player is their stupidly high damage number (which is gained from them attack all mobs first before anyone can).
***thoughts more of a rhetorical nature ... musings if you will***
Is there any way that would be viable to implement in game so way to get the player base to stop being so self centered in how they play? Is there anyway that can get people to get away from the "I did 50million damage this run so shut up" mentality? I'd say get rid of the damage tracker in skirmish and dungeon runs but lots of people use parcing programs, which in a past MMO was actually used to discriminate against people who didn't put forth "good number".
Don't get me wrong, clearly there are people that don't have any interest in building up a character (empty enchantment slots and lack of artifacts is a clear indication of that) and thus deserve to be shunned to some extent, after all who wants to waste time on someone who is not putting forth effort. But to ultimately discriminate because someone doesn't have R9 enchantments and the "1 and only" class build is excessive in the other extreme.
Post edited by doriangreigh on
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I know I'm tired of seeing all these 16K CW's running around wearing split sets. I'd rather have a 13K CW with a full HV set in my group than a 17K CW running a split set. People just don't understand how big of a difference stacks of the HV debuff make.
Not to digress into a CW discussion, but yeah my CW is in HV and I was rather annoyed at people telling me its the best and only gear for CW, however after running around a bit i've begin to notice how it does help a lot if you are using the appropriate control powers. My CW in HV pretty much runs with CS IT and ST always with 1 encounter being switched typically using sudden storm as I have it feated to add 5 stacks of chill (that I don't think is adding 5 as it should) or changing it for something like CoI or RoE as situations dictate.
I am amazed that there have not been sets that can really compare, on the flip side I have noticed that I survive IWD and now the Tyranny skirmishes much better in my black ice empowered set lol. Although I think my damage output is a bit higher in the HV. I'm now at 16k in HV thinking 17k now in black ice.
Oh and I do agree, for the most part I can't see why anyone would want to be in a split set for any reason other than pad their GS. Even some of the not so great set pieces still seem better than using split sets for 2 piece bonuses, but people do like to stack the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of power, I sware i'm the only player in Neverwinter that doesn't obsess over having 6, 7, 8, 9, 10k+ power. I had 4k power for a long time, just recently due to gear and enchants (help from stone too) got my power to 6k. Frankly I did just fine with 4k power. Maybe I didn't hit 50 million in a CN run but at 4k power I still did 30 million.
I disagree with this. Some characters I want split sets, some I want to have a full set. The fact that you hear QQ'es of "If youre not in full HV, youre garbage!" Pandering to what some people want is why the game's full of single minded players.
My girlfriend runs a DC with split sets. Shes not obsessed with power. She has high power,crit,armor pen, defense, and recovery. So, she built herself as a DC that can and has kited before, who has great power for her heals(not damage), and crit for crit healing. She gets tons of compliments for healing, and doesn't care about impressing others with "my GS is this number" or "my power is this number".
Some people do want to run split sets for power creep. But do people also run a single set, that everyone wants for favor in their own way too? Seriously, when was the last time you heard "oh, youre a CW running a good combo of sets, or anything other than HV, good job"?
Wanting to even out your stats, as opposed to maxxing by picking what everyone else believes is best, is showing diversity.
You guys wonder why theres limited diversity in this game? What about picking 1 and only 1 whole set for a class, and shunning anyone who tries a different setup?
By the way, I primarily use HR or SW, but know(and try to teach other dps'ers in my guild) to let melees hit first. The problem is, unless they use stunning moves, only the GF can keep agro. When im on my CW, I either let melees hit first, or if I have cc ready, plop them right in melees lap. Not all ranged striking classes play as dumb as youre saying, but I do understand your viewpoint. I run every class, it sucks to be a GWF, TR, or GF with a dumb CW/HR/SW in the party.
P.S. On your OP, when im on my melee classes for example, I try to position myself so the boss is between me and the other dps'ers. Could they have been maneuvering for combat advantage purposes?
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
In some situations they may have been but in the Shores skirmish they clearly need to keep the boss faced away from people and are just running around for whatever reason. In dragon fights most of it is running out of say a red zone but instead of going back they just continue to run in circles. I play a lot so I run into this a lot. I also pug a lot so such is life, but it really does where on your nerves to see things time and time again happening that are not helpful.
Also I will note that I don't believe I was close enough to give combat advantage and if I was I was already behind him with the melee GWF in front of him and the GWF still ran around and faced the boss right at me just in time for him to hit me with some massive attack that would not have hit me had he not ran in my direction.
Before you blame me I was standing put dealing damage behind boss, when he moved I moved but I can only move so much as many CW abilities of a wind up time so I can't just throw 1 MM at a time while I run around the map trying to keep pace with stupid people that don't know how to do anything but run in freaking circles.
To reply to some of your not quoted response, I have to say I have thought about using a split set on something like an HR prior to the pathfinder, as at the time the set bonuses didnt' seem all that useful but now I think full set bonsuses are more helpful than split.
As to the DC there is a noticble difference in a full set of HP (I recently just got mine, had been in dread sets, black ice sets, and miracle healer) and I have to say it does seem that the debuff from the set is pretty nice. My personal opinion is that the DC is one class that almost can do just fine without any set armor at all so running 2 set on them could work but in the end I'd still want to have full sets ... if I want to round out my character stats I use enchants to beef up stats I don't have as many points in as i would like. Again personally I think that is what enchants are meant to be for not just pumping up HP and Power. Not many people like Cruel enchants it seems but I love them on some classes like my SW who I run as a puppet master and the non optimal set i'm shooting for is the puppetmaster set.
I'm not big on total min maxing, but I will say player skill does factor in when I make a call on someone's ability. I never as for GS and rarely check gear until i'm given a reason to. TO me a lot of split set people do it to beef up their GS so they can say they have x GS meeting or exceeding the GS people keep asking for to run dungeons with these days.
1 - Unstoppable dont immunizes the gwf against certain control effects (the flapping of the dragon for example) the sprint, yes. if you fly, you lose your focused destroyer. 38% damage bonus.
2 - executioner style. it's good to explore angles to kill enemies in line.
3 - combat advantage. the range class begins to run and we have to move to recover the position that you lost. the new mark turn this more easy (see again the executioner style note)
All good points.
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
1)About the boss fight discussion. Was just explaining a few possibilities to what your pugs might've been doing. I don't doubt they were probably dumb in the end. Just not everybody's tactics are apparent at first.
2)I also rarely check a person's GS unless I have reason to. Going on your Cruel enchant, is a good example of what im talking about(Power/recovery enchant, right? Not on comp right now). It is a perfect example of what I'm explaining about stats. A radiant enchant is a solitary stat boosting enchant. Some people actually run Cruel cuz it offers more GS department. I run cruel on my CWs for example, because power is good, but power and recovery on an SW/CW is better IMO. That's not min/maxing to me, that's filling gaps in my weaknesses. On my GF/TR I prefer Cruel(def/deflect, right?) over azure in that case. Stacking 2 defensive stats is better than one, IMO.
3)GS craziness is not that far from Gear craziness. diversity is not in "we have to use this set or were garbage!" I prove myself day in/day out by playing with people who run 1 solitary set by performing better than them. I don't need highest damage, but if I'm doing my job, in happy at the end of the day. I've run into "master players" who inflate themselves with solitary sets, single stat boosting enchants, and "I need to top charts" mentality. I have less problem going down in a dungeon than CWs with full HV, cuz I threw in more def, and more recovery for faster rotations. My GWF for example, doesn't have 3 power artifacts. He has 2 power and 1 union, and get stupid remarks of "why don't you have 3 power artifacts, you're dumb", then watch them go down faster than a TR w/o stealth.
4)Btw, never blamed you of anything. Just trying to give some reasoning to what your teammates might have been doing. If they truly acted with no purpose, that's on them.
You're new to the game, you make the common mistake of thinking that Cryptic has designed a fighter. What Cryptic has designed is a runner. Just read what the devs say about their vision of a gwf. Gwf is a sprinter. All the damage he may have delivered in previous mods has be consistently removed, same for his DR. On the other hand, his sprint ability has been extended. Hit and run. Or better said, run and run and run and hit and run and run and run. So, doriangreigh, try to get the picture (private joke, picture of dorian gray and so on), whenever you'll ever see a gwf he will be sprinting around. Like it, or leave the game.
Yep. I think it´s aligned with the vision of a rabid barbarian jumping from one target to the next one. And it should have been better to make the class a Barbarian from start.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Tbh, always thought unstoppable looked more like a barbarian type class mechanic anyway...
Fully agree. Unstoppable is Barbarian´s Rage.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
you obviously dont play a GWF so allow me to explain why we run around a lot
1. cryptic as seen fit to reduce the DR of our unstoppable (mostly due to us being really OP in PvP and I agree I am a decent GWF in PvP and going 40/2 in a dom match was ridiculous) so we can no longer stand in the red and use our unstoppable as a dodge. and since we sometimes get hit even if we run out of the red we tend to over exaggerate those sprints out of the red to avoid getting hit. run the new skirmish on heroic with a 17k gs GWF and try to stand in one place and when your group has to constantly pick you up when you get one shotted by trash mobs and you put the injury kit vendors kids through law school then you may understand.
2. gone are the days where DPS GWFs can effectively tank adds... maybe a T1-2 boss on occasion but unless you have gone IV sent you are not a tank... period you are a dps. I would love to go back to mod 2 and run my IV sent that could tank adds and blow up the charts on dps with a 14k gs and stand in one place though any attack but I cant and there is no use crying about it you respec and move on and learn how to play with the tools you are given
3. as for the front line surge... you do realize that that is a control power dont you? when an enemy is prone they cant eat the face of your more squishy friends. I supplement my FLS with Come and Get It to group them up after I knock them down. If I wanted to do more dps I would do that in reverse but it scatters mobs a bit. but FLS gives the others of the group a brief respite from the trash damage and me also.
you want the boss faced a certain way? get GF they are tanks and can actually generate "threat" (I use the term loosely because threat gen in this game is not like other MMO's which is fine no QQ here I kinda like that everyone has to be aware of it in dungeons)
respecing is expensive so I play the spec I enjoy which is IV destro and I am not going to respec just so I can play my toon the way you think I should be playing it sorry skippy
how about you do like we did and adapt to the new play style instead of freaking out because someone else isn't playing the way you think they should.
so basically roll a GWF, get it to 60, get it geared, find a way for it to stand in one place in the red and hold aggro on a bunch of mobs without dying and then come back, write up your spec and play style for us to use, then change that every time PWE makes a change to that class....or kick rocks on down the road son because nobody wants to be armchair QB'd by someone who sits the bench
This is an Action Combat MMO. Positioning is a very important, if not the most important aspect of combat in this game. As others have already said there are several game mechanics in place specifically to encourage and reward movement in combat.
Op knows how to play the game. The problem is you completely are misinterpreting what he is saying. He says that gwf should of course sprint and position themselves appropriately but the ones he sees are just running in circles turning bosses and adds unecessarily. Same extends to other classes. You do not have to circumnavigate the boss to avoid an aoe that is in front of it and etc. I really dont get how people are completely misunderstanding this guy. Its common sense.
As far as Combat Advantage or boss aggro, I get this fighting Dragons(for example) all the time. Without a tank in the party, the GWFs end up pulling aggro. The Dragons end up spinning like crazy. When im on my GWF however, I sprint back when he flaps his wings, or does short burst aoe, but their cone attack I HAVE to sprint left or right. Not even a GF can sit in that, and has to strafe.
I get him, that's why im not being mean :P. But GWFs aren't as durable as they used to be, and some are so caught on this "speed running" playstyle, that you cant change them. I do think its annoying fighting Dragons, or a boss like Azarzhel, but I cant blame someone unless theyre doing it intentionally.
Its not that hard. GWFs are a tanky class too just like GFs although atleast a GF dosent have to dodge it.
Princess Amber - DC
Shieldmaiden Amber - GF
Valkyrie Amber - GWF
Huntress Amber - HR
The thing for GFs is is that they should dodge it. The cone pushes them back still, and agro is gained by something else while theyre trying to plod back to the dragons face. Same goes for the wing flap attack.
Princess Amber - DC
Shieldmaiden Amber - GF
Valkyrie Amber - GWF
Huntress Amber - HR
You do know the cone and wing flap attack of dragons still pushes GFs, right?
Or has that changed since yesterday?(Did ToD dailies, dragon blew my GF right away with dragon flapped, pushed way back with cone)
Princess Amber - DC
Shieldmaiden Amber - GF
Valkyrie Amber - GWF
Huntress Amber - HR
Yea. the cone literally pushes me back to almost max range. That's how its always happened, in the past and now. So I end up strafing left or right from it.
If op has played a mod 4 gwf he would know we are not that tanky anymore and most people would not spec to sent because who needs a gwf sent for dungions anymore now gfs have been buffed. (course pvp spec is still sent though) So if there is no gf present thats actually tanking it is going to cause problems like this.
Princess Amber - DC
Shieldmaiden Amber - GF
Valkyrie Amber - GWF
Huntress Amber - HR