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CW preview tests (data/parses).
grimah
Member Posts: 1,658 Arc User
I'll post here the results of some tests.
They are not 100% comparable (some will have more hits, better rng with crits etc)
Test 1:
The follow test is on the renegade path, testing the new nightmare wizardry and eye of the storm.
For test purposes I have only specced into renegade with 10 points spare (took all the upper level renegade spells + capstone)
No boons, enchant used is plaguefire, second class feature is storm spell, base crit of 34% and time ran at 2 minutes each, sudden storm is hitting 2 dummies, rest of the encounters are hitting 3.
With Eye of the storm (view image to see full size)
With Evocation (view image to see full size)
You can tell theres some inconsistencies with the evocation test (crit rate RnG). However the eye of the storm bring my crit up to 50%ish (65-70%ish on live tests).
combat advantage (flank) results are very inconsistent too, there is an increase of it whilst using eye of the storm, the uptime seems to be nerfed from 50% down to around 25-30%ish
Note: evocation seems to contribute more damage, but this is without vorpal. But even with a perfect vorpal evocation should come out ahead.
They are not 100% comparable (some will have more hits, better rng with crits etc)
Test 1:
The follow test is on the renegade path, testing the new nightmare wizardry and eye of the storm.
For test purposes I have only specced into renegade with 10 points spare (took all the upper level renegade spells + capstone)
No boons, enchant used is plaguefire, second class feature is storm spell, base crit of 34% and time ran at 2 minutes each, sudden storm is hitting 2 dummies, rest of the encounters are hitting 3.
With Eye of the storm (view image to see full size)
With Evocation (view image to see full size)
You can tell theres some inconsistencies with the evocation test (crit rate RnG). However the eye of the storm bring my crit up to 50%ish (65-70%ish on live tests).
combat advantage (flank) results are very inconsistent too, there is an increase of it whilst using eye of the storm, the uptime seems to be nerfed from 50% down to around 25-30%ish
Note: evocation seems to contribute more damage, but this is without vorpal. But even with a perfect vorpal evocation should come out ahead.
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Post edited by grimah on
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Assailing force is bugged again (looks bad anyway) but here is some info
elemental empowerment contributes 5% of total dps (and does scale with buffs/debuffs)
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Did some oppressor tests. Forgot to screenshot the data But i tested both spell storm and MoF
Mof: CoI mastery, icy terrain, shard, steal time (did one with fanning the flame instead of shard does about the same but shard would be better in aoe clearing so stuck with that one)
Storm: chill strike mastery, sudden storm (adds 5 chills), icy terrain, steal time.
Results are more or less the same, total damage over 2 minutes is about 10% less damage than test thaum.
In dungeon environment MoF would push ahead because of smoulder will continue damaging when you cannot stand and attack.
Shatter working great now and no longer OP
If anyone askes why i dont use fanning flames on mastery = always sucked in aoe, only hits a tiny aoe once at beginning.
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Live Thaum:
Conditions:
(took away damage pets)
Shard is hitting explosion hitting 2 targets, sudden storm hitting 2 targets only.
CoI, chilling cloud, steal time, oppressive force hitting 3 targets.
Class features: Storm spell, Eye of the storm
Re-created the conditions on test.
Same conditions with some spell changes
Icy terrain (shard)
Chill strike (CoI)
Evocation (EotS).
Changed feat from nightmare wizardry to bitter cold (nightmare will get reverted again next patch)
Changed feat Malevolent Surge to Destructive Wizardry and added storm pillar to rotation
Anyways the long and short, theres around 21% decrease compared to live
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cw did 2-3x to much dps in live so they did not changed anything we will still have cw stacked teams ;/
Ultimately, there are no crippling nerfs happening to CW's. The reports of their deaths are greatly exaggerated.
The CW "deaths" is regarding the PvP. In dungeons is probably no problem at all.
My CW has zero pvp gear, so i cannot help in this regard. its best if one of the CW pvpers to post results, But i think theres only about 3 in the whole server :P
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Yeah not many PvP CWs since the class already suck in PvP.
But its hard to test the new CW i PvP. Its gonna be all about the control. If you are going for damage, you will be the weakest link in the team and people would rather bring someone that does more damage and thats about all the other classes now after the CW nerfs.
That's not entirely true. Their initial pass at a nerf had a 90 second cooldown on Eye of the Storm. They've since scaled that back to 25 seconds. Also Grimah does not use Conduit of Ice which accounted for fair amount of damage and added a 15% debuff to targets. CW's that had that taken away suffered more.
Personally, with no adaptation, my damage went down 67% right away. With adaptating it was about 50% decrease. Now that they've scaled back Eye of the Storm to 25 seconds and made other adjustments my damage is down about 35% from what it is now on live.
So the deaths were not all that exaggerated, it's just that the developers gave some back after the initial nerf.
I did use it and i do use it on live, I also used it on preview test initially but tried chill strike option came out ahead by a few % over conduit, might have be the same if i had rampaging madness on.
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Two things. One, saying Spellstorms have lost 67% of their damage then isn't true. When adjusted, you said you were at 50%. Also, given (and I'll say this until I'm blue in the face), the Assailing Force affects EVERYONE'S DPS, so that's a non-factor. Take that, and you're now at 35%. That's quite a difference. And two, none of these changes are actually Live. As we've seen in the past week, things are still being TESTED, yet the boards were afire crying the death of the CW. It's chicken little all over the place. And the stat the naysayers keep repeating is the 67% number you threw out based on a single test, which we know is no longer accurate, so it'd be nice it you'd be proactive in NOT letting people keep harping on that number (I'm looking at you, Silverquick).
But, thanks to some people doing actual testing and offering feedback, we're seeing the changes dialed in. Again, nothing is anything until it hits the Live server.
Based on some testing I've done, I think Chill Strike is going to come back into the regular rotation, especially for Oppressor builds. But again, we'll have to see what the final numbers look like.
If you would like to criticize me for my behavior that's fine. But please don't hold me accountable for when other people go over the deep end with their tears and wailing. I've been a consistent voice that the CW class needed to be nerfed and that I would find ways to adapt and that no one should freak out until we get a good long look at what is implemented in the end. You won't find any Chicken-Little posts from me anywhere on these boards.
That 67% number was accurate for my build and rotation of spells when mod 4 first appeared on the preview server live. That there are other builds that aren't as heavily affected does not invalidate the number. Also, that they are actively tweaking feats does not invalidate it. 67% was the nerf my build initially received. I've presented that number as no less and no more than what it was: an initial apples to apples testing.
Test parameters:
5 minute test on the dread ring test dummies
Power: 7133
Critical Strike: 1110 (24.8% crit chance)
Build: Thaumaturge, with Nightmare Wizardry from the renegade tree
Spells: Conduit of Ice on tab, Steal Time, Sudden Storm, Shard of the Endless Avalanche with Oppressive Force as the Daily.
Passives: Evocation, Eye of the Storm
at wills: Chilling Cloud, Storm Pillar
Here is my testing on the live server on 7/3/14:
Here is my testing on the Preview Server on 7/3/14
I did the test on both servers a few times to try and get the casts of spells that haven't changed (shard, chilling cloud, storm pillar, etc) to be as close as possible.
With this build DPS has dropped 45.6%.
Other important takeaways:
-Assailing Force is still obviously broken as it never proced even though the feat was active.
-Eye of the Storm had 46% up time on live, on preview it has 24% up time
-Nightmare Wizardry triggers about 1/3 as often
-Shard of Avalanche does less damage than Sudden Storm, Steal Time, and Conduit of Ice. That despite the fact that it was hitting 4 targets with its explosion and CoI was hitting 3 (although sometimes the shard would pass through the test dummies without exploding). That's just sad.
I know, and I agree with your approach 100%. It's the same thing I've been saying since the changes were announced.
But it's not good for the class, nor is it good for the game if people are able to latch onto misinformation and spread it like wildfire. I'm sure you've heard the expression, "A Lie Can Be Halfway Round the World Before the Truth Has Got Its Boots On"? That's exactly what happens in these MMOs. I was reading the general forums this morning, and look what popped up:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?701981-Class-changes-M-4
Almost everything in that post is fallacious. But it's out there, and it really doesn't help. What does help is everything the CW community has been doing to improve upon the class, by offering feedback and tests. And I don't want to discount your test, because it originally showed that the Spellstorm (and particularly Renegades) were getting the very short end of the stick with the initial changes. However, changes are being made and we need (as a community) to make sure that people don't rage-quit the game because they heard from their friend's brother's uncle's dog who read a link on Reddit that was posted by a guy who cut and pasted a single number from a random post on the forums that stated CW's were having their DPS absolutely wrecked.
And unfortunately, less scrupulous people are tossing around that early 67% (worse case scenario) that came out of your testing. So it's not your information, it's people abusing your work for their own purposes. As such, it'd be nice to see responses along the lines of "Hey, yeah, I did those tests (or in my case, I know the guy who did), and it's no longer accurate. Per the last round of changes on the preview server, it's more like this..."
That's all.
I've been doing exactly that. Read my first post on this page from two weeks ago.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?692981-CW-nerfs-announced/page4
I'm not a fan of misinformation and scare tactics either. But I can't baby-sit the forums all day to make sure the information I put out is not being misconstrued.
Spells were mindlessly spammed as they came off cooldown.
Dps loss from Malevolent Surge under right conditions is not accounted for since dummies can't die.
Live
Preview
Will need to wait until next patch to run further tests
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These tests come from 2 - 3 dummies. In dungeons, CWs had a target cap of 15 targets. Now it's 8 targets. The 21 % decrease is the output per target. The cap change alone reduced our damage by 46 %.
The reason CWs are OP is not because they hit for 20 - 40k with certain spells. Other classes do that, too. They are OP because they hit 15 targets at the same time with that amount of damage (each). Now that we have target caps on our strongest spells (Oppressive Force, Singularity...), our DPS is decreased by overall 58 % (which is pretty much what I figured when running a heroic encounter on test shard: 60 % less DPS than live).
I will upload some tests for both PvE and PvP as soon as the announced changes hit the test shard.
Don't underestimate a well-built CW. Problem is that for every class there is a small number of "trendsetters" (maybe 1 out of 100). Most people are used to CWs that are stuck in a meta that was over the moment Tenebrous got nerfed. After Lantiss discovered the Meatball CW, which was a great build back then, everyone just went with it and never touched the ACT again. Those who probably would've done it quit the game or switched to other classes. As far as live goes, show me another class that can consistently beat GWFs and HRs on node, assuming the CW is skilled. Now, in combinations (2v2, 3v3), it really depends. But at least the more dynamic PvP CW builds don't require you to outnumber the enemy on a node and are actually viable in 2v2, 3v3, etc.
Sure, our damage has been reduced, but it still needs testing. Armor Penetration is (supposedly) fixed. It didn't affect Oppressive Force, Repel (not on TAB), Entangling, RoE before. It only affected Chill Strike and partly Magic Missile. And, to my surprise, the devs listen. I will test the Renegade soon against all classes in PvP. Would be nice if someone could test the Thaum (maybe Virus?).
With stacked CW team and a debuff cleric, DPS specced CWs that I run CN with consistently report their shardplosion hitting for 120k+ under right conditions. (most have rank 8s and P.vorpal)
The dps tests on dummies don't do much justice to CWs DPS potential on live. With debuff part of CoI and Elemental empowerment removed along with huge nerf to Malevolent Surge, it won't be a stretch to say that stacked CW teams will lose 75% of their dps. Not that I am complaining.
I don't think that's accurate. When a CW's shard hits for 120k it's usually because of debuffs applied by the rest of the group (especially DC's) in addition to the ones a CW can give himself. The debuffs from other sources are not going away.
I have done a Castle Never run on the preview shard with 2 CW's, 1 HR, 1 GWF, 1 DC. The damage totals were this:
CW 1 - 24.8 million
CW 2 - 24.4 million
HR - 21.2 million
GWF - 16.1 million
DC - 5.5 million
The run was not noticeably slower than any other CN run I've done on live. Granted, this was a well-geared and experienced group. But it was obvious that the CW's had not had their damage cut down to 1/4 of what is on live. Mobs of enemies still got destroyed fairly quickly.
Edit: the maximum hit for a shard in that run was 40k. Big time nerf down from 120. But not useless. And considering how steal time was buffed (max hits of 85k) it's not that dire.
Were you running basically the same set up as you run on live? If not, what changes are you making? Thanks for your contributions to this overall discussion, I have been too busy with work to do any constructive tests on preview, though I have had a little fun seeing what I could do with Steal Time on tab for guaranteed CA combos.
CW 1 made basically no changes from his live build. Used a Thaumaturge tree, eye of the storm, evocation, CoI on tab, steal time, sudden storm, shard of avalanche. This run was when Eye of the Storm had a 90 second cooldown and the thaumaturge feats weren't working. If we did the run again his damage would go up decent amount with the changes they've made since.
I was CW 2 and did a pretty major overhaul. I switched to a perma-freeze oppressor build - CoI on tab, steal time, icy terrain, sudden storm (with the 5 stacks of frost feat), chilling presence, and evocation. They've since scaled back how well the oppressor "shatter" feat works but for that run our party was rarely in any danger. I could just keep everything we ran into frozen solid until it died (except bosses, obviously).
Bumping to keep alive
I haven't checked out the latest changes on test, but my finely tuned Boss DPS CW build took close to a 50% DPS loss with the first release of the nerfs. Hopefully it will be a bit better, but I don't see how any Spell Storm build will match a MOF build with the changes. The passive DOT (applied by any chill when feated) DPS is greater than Storm Spell & EOTS together I think (maybe not EOTS with the 25sec cd), and that's before you even use the MOF class feats.
Really not sure if I care to test this preview release or just wait till the next one.
Honestly, I feel like they are just trying to nerf classes so that the old beta dungeons can still seem more difficult, since GS additive updates made them obsolete many months, and there have been no new dungeons to keep the challenge for the higher geared players.