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Small Guardian Fighter Tweaks
brynicstormborn
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 41
I know this is my first post on these forums, so let me give you a little background on myself. I've been playing Neverwinter since it was in beta, and before that I had extensive experience playing Guild Wars 2, SWTOR, DC Universe, WoW, Lineage II, Guild Wars, CoH, Star Wars Galaxies, Lineage, Asheron's Call, and even Dark Ages (the Nexon game) which was my first MMO about 15 years ago. I don't normally play "magic" type characters, I prefer the heft of a blade in my hand. In Neverwinter, I started with a Great Weapon Fighter in beta, but also have a Guardian Fighter and a Hunter Ranger at level 60. My Ranger has a gear score of about 13,000 and both my fighters have gear scores just a few points shy of 15,000.
Now, I love all three of my characters. I like my fighters a little more than my HR, but I enjoy playing all three of them. My GF is my favorite, but its hard for me to get past the fact that my GWF (a pure sentinel build) is both tougher and deals more damage than my GF. The difference between them is very small and almost imperceptible, except for when my GWF uses unstoppable. The minimum 50% extra damage reduction, plus a heal from feats, and temporary hit points on top is not even comparable to the GF's mark, even with it being enduring now (which was a good step in the right direction).
However, I'm not advocating for a nerf to GWFs. As I said, I've played a GWF since beta (my original main) and went through the stages before they got their much needed love, and I think they are decently well balanced right now (except for the prone's in PVP, but that's another story, PVP only, and affects GWFs and GFs equally. I don't play much PVP so I don't feel comfortable commenting on PVP). However, GFs still need some more love.
I don't want to see GFs turn into another GWF though, but with a board strapped to one arm, so I've come up with some ideas to help GFs become better at what they are supposed to do - protect their party and take a beating. I feel the two things that need to be addressed are mark and guard.
Mark - the GFs tab still is significantly better now that it doesn't fall off when you are struck, which makes tanking a boss a lot easier. However, I think it is still woefully sub par compared to just about every other classes tab skill. To make it better, I feel like it should be tailored even further for boss tanking. My idea is to give it a 15% damage debuff (non-stacking) on the target. This would help the GF do their job of protecting the party from that one big enemy without being too overpowered, especially considering mark's pretty short up time. The amount is just a rough idea in my head, and could easily be tweaked for balance. This would only apply to the GFs tab skill, not all marks.
Guard - Guard needs some work too, because in upper level content it just gets smashed through in only a few hits from relatively weak enemies. I think guard needs to have the size of its meter increased by 25-50%, as well as about a 25% faster recovery. However, I also think that guard should give a passive bonus to deflection when your guard meter is up. My thought is that this bonus could be a scaling bonus, giving .4% for each level beyond 10. At level 11, you would get a 0.4% bonus to deflection, but at level 60 you would have a 20% bonus to deflection. This number could be tweaked, or even set to drop when the guard meter is broken.
I feel these two changes would make GFs significantly better at their job of mitigating and absorbing damage, without making them overpowered. In their current state I also feel like GFs need a little love in the DPS arena, but I think I would feel differently if I at least felt like a proper walking fortress. :cool:
TLDR version
Mark (the tab skill, not normal marks) would provide a non-stacking reduction to enemy damage.
Guard would get a bonus to guard meter and recharge, as well as provide a passive bonus to deflection change (possibly broken with guard meter).
Let me know what you all think. I'm always open to criticism. But please, do not turn this into a flame war.
- B
P.S. - I chose deflection because I felt like it should not be mitigated by armor penetration, plus I felt it fit better into the theme of blocking with a shield.
Now, I love all three of my characters. I like my fighters a little more than my HR, but I enjoy playing all three of them. My GF is my favorite, but its hard for me to get past the fact that my GWF (a pure sentinel build) is both tougher and deals more damage than my GF. The difference between them is very small and almost imperceptible, except for when my GWF uses unstoppable. The minimum 50% extra damage reduction, plus a heal from feats, and temporary hit points on top is not even comparable to the GF's mark, even with it being enduring now (which was a good step in the right direction).
However, I'm not advocating for a nerf to GWFs. As I said, I've played a GWF since beta (my original main) and went through the stages before they got their much needed love, and I think they are decently well balanced right now (except for the prone's in PVP, but that's another story, PVP only, and affects GWFs and GFs equally. I don't play much PVP so I don't feel comfortable commenting on PVP). However, GFs still need some more love.
I don't want to see GFs turn into another GWF though, but with a board strapped to one arm, so I've come up with some ideas to help GFs become better at what they are supposed to do - protect their party and take a beating. I feel the two things that need to be addressed are mark and guard.
Mark - the GFs tab still is significantly better now that it doesn't fall off when you are struck, which makes tanking a boss a lot easier. However, I think it is still woefully sub par compared to just about every other classes tab skill. To make it better, I feel like it should be tailored even further for boss tanking. My idea is to give it a 15% damage debuff (non-stacking) on the target. This would help the GF do their job of protecting the party from that one big enemy without being too overpowered, especially considering mark's pretty short up time. The amount is just a rough idea in my head, and could easily be tweaked for balance. This would only apply to the GFs tab skill, not all marks.
Guard - Guard needs some work too, because in upper level content it just gets smashed through in only a few hits from relatively weak enemies. I think guard needs to have the size of its meter increased by 25-50%, as well as about a 25% faster recovery. However, I also think that guard should give a passive bonus to deflection when your guard meter is up. My thought is that this bonus could be a scaling bonus, giving .4% for each level beyond 10. At level 11, you would get a 0.4% bonus to deflection, but at level 60 you would have a 20% bonus to deflection. This number could be tweaked, or even set to drop when the guard meter is broken.
I feel these two changes would make GFs significantly better at their job of mitigating and absorbing damage, without making them overpowered. In their current state I also feel like GFs need a little love in the DPS arena, but I think I would feel differently if I at least felt like a proper walking fortress. :cool:
TLDR version
Mark (the tab skill, not normal marks) would provide a non-stacking reduction to enemy damage.
Guard would get a bonus to guard meter and recharge, as well as provide a passive bonus to deflection change (possibly broken with guard meter).
Let me know what you all think. I'm always open to criticism. But please, do not turn this into a flame war.
- B
P.S. - I chose deflection because I felt like it should not be mitigated by armor penetration, plus I felt it fit better into the theme of blocking with a shield.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
-improving max number of mobs aggro at max "aggro skill" to achieve 15-20 (like any endgame dungeon)
-scaling +damage with the amount of mobs aggroed (more mobs aggro = +%weap dmg added *each mob)
-scaling +guardmeter (plus a little +guard regen) with the amount of mobs aggroed (more mobs aggro = +%guard meter added *each mob)
Just these three FIXES (not even buffs, imho) would rebalance GF making it really "on par" in dungeons, especially dps wise, while not really breaking pvp (can modify pvp-mark/"aggro" with a max number of 3 players? anyway, can be tested/tweaked EASILY)
And these fixes are just the beginning imho, still they could immediately bring up the GFs from the dust.
I do not want to see the GF become another DPS class. That is not what this class is meant to be, and the game would be boring if we had what essentially boiled down to one class with six different skins. I don't like changes that make the GF more like GWFs, just with a slightly different stat allocation. I'd like to see the GF get more utility to do it's job more effectively, not just a bump to stats.
In my opinion the GF should do roughly the same amount of damage as a devoted cleric, since they are both support type classes. The GFs damage output seems fine to me - they might be able to stand a 10-20% bonus to the damage of their at will powers, but otherwise it seems about spot on. Where they need help is their ability to absorb and mitigate damage.
- B
Really? not what this class is meant for? i have been playing this game since open beta and i can say that this class is meant for absolutely nothing.
No class should be made superfluous by other classes. The role of the Guardian Fighter is as a tank - that has been clearly intentioned by the developers. However, the way the class is designed it is not able to fill that role, and so there is no "tank" in Neverwinter.
I'd like to see changes made to actually allow the GF to fill that intended role, instead of just turning it into another DPS fighter who just happens to use a shield instead of a two-handed weapon.
- B
There are tanks in neverwinter, we call them hunter rangers and great weapon fighters
- B
and kudos for doing MC and VT final boss not an zerg dungeon but the fact still remains (this bosses) doesn't need tanking they need burning HP as fast as possible which still neglect the idea of having a tank in this game.
So before a GF can begin to do their role as a "tank" they need to change how they design their dungeon first.
Also, giving us more damage needs to be done carefully as it could result in nerfs within a few weeks once the PVP QQing starts. People already moan that we can chain prone them, now imagine us chain-proning and hitting harder at the same time?
The two easiest ways to buff our damage without risking PVP QQing - faster AOE Cleave and faster uncapped Enforced Threat.
A few tweaks down the paragon paths could also be made:
Aside from doubling power, the Conqueror cap stone should also give us stacks of Reckless Attacker. Once capped every hit builds 1% bonus damage and let it stack up to 10-times. It shouldn't reset until we stop hitting things. 10% bonus damage coupled with a faster AOE primary at-will = more personal DPS. This will not affect PVP too much as once the GF stops hitting his target his damage will decrease.
Brawling Warrior in the Protector path can be turned into something like the old Stalwart Bulwark set; taking damage boosts your damage. The 5% DR boost that stems from the current Brawling Warrior feat can be moved into the Shieldmaster feat.
Tactican cap stone seems fine, but I'd maybe rework a feat deep in the tree (possibly Inspiring Leader) that boosts your and your allies' crit chance or crit severity by 1%/2%/3%/4%/5% and 2%/4%/6%/8%/10% respectively. High General armour plus this feat could be quite a party boost.
The above could assist with our personal and group damage output without turning us into the next PVP FOTM and thus the prime nerf target. All 3 paths get a damage boost but none of them can be selected simultaneously, so we avoid the pre-Mod 3 scenario whereby all 3 GWF paths could gain access to 3 significant damage buffs.
TAB and Guard should also be worked on. Guard needs to be stamina based. We also need our survivability increased. We need to gain HP, deflec and DR more readily than any other class. Right now GWFs and HRs gain HP and/or deflec in ways a GF cannot, and if he does, he becomes limp offensively. One idea, and others have mentioned this, would be to tweak our ability scores to maximise these stats, such as increasing the HP, deflec and DR bonuses we get from STR/CON/DEX.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Haha. I'm with you. I played CoX for years, starting in the beta back in March of 2004. Tankers were initially way overpowered (herding, anyone?) but once they fixed that it was one of the most enjoyable archetypes to play.
Of course, from my experience CoX also had far less players trying to "speed run" things. In my opinion the dungeons in this game are not difficult enough. A lot of the Task Forces in CoH felt like you were lucky to even make it through. The epic dungeons in this game don't really feel very "epic" to me.
I'd also like to see Cyptic implement world bosses along the lines of Hamidon. The Remorhaz being taken down by 20 people who just happened to be running through the area isn't nearly the same as spending the better part of an hour fighting a giant boss with 150 players, strategically positioned for tanking, healing, and damaging roles. Maybe one of these dragons coming up?
- B
P.S. - I also think that the problem with dungeon design is more of an issue with DPS than it is with the tanking role. If tanking becomes obsolete because the dps is killing the adds too quickly, than maybe DPS is just killing the adds too quickly. That's an entirely different subject for debate though.
People in MMORPGs today demand any class to be viable both solo/party PVE and PVP. Contrary to popular belief this doesnt lead to balance but imbalance. If you have a light armor caster who is PVP viable then you have the same caster being overpowered in PVE - just the way it is right now in NWV. I recall my first steps in pvp zones with my Dominator ( a control class ) he got crushed lol. Also in PVE a control class needed tanks in order to excel, here control classses need nobody.
Today its like The trend to have every class do everything and when one of them fails in certain area it feels broken and becomes unwanted. By giving all classes the option to fill any role you essentially take out roles altogether.. then you have 1 class that actually can fill only 1 role but nobody needs him to do so cause they can just do it themselves. Honestly with the way NVW is the only GF solution is a DPS buff so they can compete with the rest. You see, as long as a 12kGS CW can clear any IWD mob group with 2 aoe spells nobody will care for the 40 000 HP GF (assuming we get HP buffs) who can tank 10 mobs without dying..
PS: can you imagine 150 players fighting the same boss in NWV ? I see only lag..
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
1. Buff our Constitution HP bonus
2. Give us some Crit, maybe allow Dex to give us Crit, no reason we are the only class in the game that cannot raise Crit value naturally!
3. Make Fighters Recovery have CC immunity, or make it damage taken give HP instead of damage done
4. Increase Weapon damage by a small amount, at least above a DC main hand!
5. Increase Guard virtual HP pool, or make it stamina controlled
6. As the GWf had Armor Pen added to their CON, would be great to have a "Primary" stat that gave natural Deflection, we have shields Deflecting is our job!
There are many more issues with the Guardian Fighter but those little tweaks would help us considerably!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
We are getting off topic here, but I will say in response to this... If they gave GWF healing other players abilities ALL the other classes would be obsolete!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!