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The 8 rule of thumb for PvP from a 15 year PvP Vet.
munkey81
Member Posts: 1,322 Arc User
From a 15 year MMO PvP Veteran - This is what is needed to make PvP in ANY MMO Successful.
1. Ranked Arena matches of 2, 3, 4 and 5 players. <--- This right here would quite literally almost completely eliminate Pug stomping, as your geared top players, will generally always be in ranked matches.
2. Diminishing Returns in PvP of all CC abilities; prones, stuns, dazes, immobilizes etc - This brings the level of PvP back to the "skill" factor, and not just the "I smash buttons stuff dies and stays on the ground" style of play that we currently have.
3. Larger, different PvP Maps; Juggernaut, Capture the Flag, King of the Hill, Objective Based PvP, Death match, to name a fiew.
4. PvP brackets like we previously had, that anyone of any skill or gear score can join.
5. A separate PvP Q, where players can create a team of 2, 3, 4 and 5 players, add themselves into this Q. Where other players can see who they are, what there team make up is, and they can challenge, or accept incoming matches. (This is your premade vs premade).
6. 20% REDUCTION to Healing in PvP for EVERY class. Get rid of Righteousness completely(the guy who designed this should be fired imo).
7. Actual PvP gear. When I say "actual" PvP gear. I am talking about gear with resistances towards the games mechanics, i.e: Radiant, necrotic etc resistances. With armor slots, to enchant with PvP stones(earned through PvP). Actual PvP gear is terrible in PvE..because it generally consists of Health/Defense and resistances the player choses to slot. Players with PvP gear have to sacrifice common stats such as;arp, crit, power etc, in order to make themselves stronger against other players.
8. OPEN World PvP zones, with no level requirement. <---Huuuuuuuuge battles, Guild VS Guild, so much fun comes from open world.(Don't like PvP? Don't go here...simple)
So many players have been mentioning things like this for months, and to no avail.
I guarantee you, if they implemented these into the game. Nearly every single person who plays the game would have fun participating in PvP.
Remember..all of this is "optional". No one is forcing anyone to play PvP.
1. Ranked Arena matches of 2, 3, 4 and 5 players. <--- This right here would quite literally almost completely eliminate Pug stomping, as your geared top players, will generally always be in ranked matches.
2. Diminishing Returns in PvP of all CC abilities; prones, stuns, dazes, immobilizes etc - This brings the level of PvP back to the "skill" factor, and not just the "I smash buttons stuff dies and stays on the ground" style of play that we currently have.
3. Larger, different PvP Maps; Juggernaut, Capture the Flag, King of the Hill, Objective Based PvP, Death match, to name a fiew.
4. PvP brackets like we previously had, that anyone of any skill or gear score can join.
5. A separate PvP Q, where players can create a team of 2, 3, 4 and 5 players, add themselves into this Q. Where other players can see who they are, what there team make up is, and they can challenge, or accept incoming matches. (This is your premade vs premade).
6. 20% REDUCTION to Healing in PvP for EVERY class. Get rid of Righteousness completely(the guy who designed this should be fired imo).
7. Actual PvP gear. When I say "actual" PvP gear. I am talking about gear with resistances towards the games mechanics, i.e: Radiant, necrotic etc resistances. With armor slots, to enchant with PvP stones(earned through PvP). Actual PvP gear is terrible in PvE..because it generally consists of Health/Defense and resistances the player choses to slot. Players with PvP gear have to sacrifice common stats such as;arp, crit, power etc, in order to make themselves stronger against other players.
8. OPEN World PvP zones, with no level requirement. <---Huuuuuuuuge battles, Guild VS Guild, so much fun comes from open world.(Don't like PvP? Don't go here...simple)
So many players have been mentioning things like this for months, and to no avail.
I guarantee you, if they implemented these into the game. Nearly every single person who plays the game would have fun participating in PvP.
Remember..all of this is "optional". No one is forcing anyone to play PvP.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
You must be confused as to what DR does.
It literally does the opposite of what you just said.
DR forces players to chose wisely their CC abilities..instead of an entire team, spamming every single CC ability they have right off the bat.
DR gets rid of button mashers being affective in PvP.
I agree with DR.
I respect your opinion..however
There is no redundancy. Those 8 points, cover the ground for every single play style. As stated, from the elite, to the very beginner. From the competitive, to the casual.
With those fiew types of available Q's, it reduces the times where a veteran player, or players, will be one shotting or crushing new players.(will it happen..yes, but greatly reduced because of the options available).
#6 is necessary to counter the tank type builds, it does MORE for balance.
Unfortunately every class in this game is a button mash style. Because of no DR.
With DR, you could still potentially lock someone up 100% till death, but it requires skill and coordination.
Do this. The next time you are in PvP and you get any form of CC when multiple are fighting you, look at your combat log after the fight is over. You will see multiple CC's used on you, back to back to back. Even while you are proned, or Choked.
Having DR, and this particular situation I mentioned, casting any form of CC on you, while already under the influence of another CC, will start the DR, and will be a wasted encounter(other than the dmg of course).
I really cant explain anymore how necessary DR is in PvP.
If you don't agree, we will just have to agree to disagree. But the vast majority of PvP'rs all want DR.
I meant getting rid of righteousness is silly. With the new pvp, I can hold the ground 2-3 vs 1 for more than one minute, and i'm playing a pve cleric (little def, full power). Get rid of righteousness, and even the most glass cannon cleric is immortal, playing in god mode in pvp.
20% healing reduction, and coordinated use of CC abilities and anyone will go down.
The point of PvP is skill vs skill.. Not, lets all smash buttons and blow all our cool downs right off the bat..like it currently is
I don't agree, not in this game. CC durations are ridiculously short already, without chain prones some classes would never die unless a full team focused on them. Good for them, bad for the game.
+1000000000000
*smile* I'm not pissy at all. Alysin Chains, Murder and Kiara Naughty Pants still crush people just as fast as they did prior to the patch. I'm just expressing my opinion on what would make the game better.
Instead of trying to derail my thread with your bad attitude and negative comments, how about posting something worthwhile? Oooor..theres the door ----> /foot
This is in the PvP section of the forums.
All the talk currently..is about the newest "PvP" patch. Which nearly everyone, is upset about. Which lead me to my own opinions, of what would make PvP better with my past experience in game that had successful PvP.
I think you and idieinpvp should go do some pve together and you can talk about teddy bears and candy
Oh now, don't be hyperbolic. Playing PvP in Neverwinter, there are no consequences to dying other than being out of the game for a few seconds. Unlike PvE, you don't even have to address an inflicted injury. PvP players aren't stupid or self-destructive, or no more so than the average person anyway. :P
Neverwinter might not be ideal as a primarily PvP game, due to balancing reasons, appeal to all kinds of D&D gamers, etc. But the reason why people who like PvP enjoy Neverwinter and really want it to work well for PvP is because it has a great combat system. If it didn't... well, Neverwinter PvP simply wouldn't have taken off at all.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
You say that....but you also say?
Meaning...you realize, like most of the NW community that's been here since the beginning..that the PvP'rs is whats keeping this game alive. So completely ignoring and ruining the lackluster PvP we did have..is a bad move.
Thus..my own opinions on what would make it better.
>And PvP Discussion
Well..thread successfully derailed I guess
Anyways....you two are going way above and beyond.
Its like...just my opinion man
There are reasons people PvP'd in EQ for 10+ years. Many of them I mentioned in my OP.
Of all the reasons, many more than just 8....of why myself, and hundreds of thousands of other players continued to play games like EQ, was largely because of the 8, WoW as well..however Carebear it was, they had hundreds of thousands of players for many many years as well.
I'd especially like to see #3 and #8.
@magenubbie - you make some valid points, but I disagree that we need to expect a disappointing PVP experience simply because this is a D&D game. Why not do both PVP and PVE very well with the license they have? They have everything they need here to make PVP great, versus the afterthought that it currently is.
I think that this patch forces players to play a balanced build and that the classes now work how they were suppose to in the first place. I don't really think that your ideas would make this game any better, I think it would make it like every other game. This game currently has an extremely unique style and I would rather see more built upon that than see it torn down and turned into everything else.
Happy?
I also have 15years + experience of different pvp games and what munkey81 said is more or less on the spot.
Now you can argue for that a game is pve or pvp oriented but that is beside the point entirely when it comes to what are good and bad in the pvp part of a game.
Pvp as a form has been tested by players in different mmos for decades now and it usually comes down to that certain things work and others don’t.
This is a game as such what makes players want to play is the how much *fun* is it to play. This goes to pve as well as pvp there is no difference in that aspect.
If you are to make changes in a game one could argue that it a good idea to look how other games have solved problems before and what has been succesfull and what has failed.
What is mind boggling is that they devs are trying to invent the wheel again in this game when it comes to pvp instead of looking at other pvp games.
Let’s take leaving penalty as an example. Now you can either go with carrot or whip and we all know what works best when it comes to the *fun* factor.
They decide to go with the whip to punish players who already think pvp is boring enough to leave in mid fights. Do you honestly think this will lead to more players that will pvp more??
I for sure don’t, in fact there has been polls made for this throughout the years in many games before and they show one-sided that this is the totally opposite way to go if you want more players to enjoy pvp.
To implement something like 5-10 min delay for pvp queue is pretty common, just to make people hesitate and leave to take another immediately after they left.
BUT to focus on what would increase the *fun* factor is a far more productive if you want to make people stay in matches or pvp more.
Making rewards that actually matters if you pvp a lot or stay throughout the game can be done in several ways....
Glory can be used to buy special items or services.
You can implement special steeds in pvp, more titles, make people get different titles or even reward them with the ability to reroll the basic stats (as we all know would make a reward that a lot of people would work their butts off for).
It can be long time rewards like if you win 100 matches you get x 500 next x 1000 next x.
If you make reward like this it’s also easy to make staying in pvp worthwhile.
If you leave you lose a won game and some glory, if you don’t fight and stand afk you don’t get anything but enough kills/dam taken you get more glory etc.
Build in rewards that players are willing to earn though hard work and make it fun doing so and the result will be more players for the simple reason of *fun* factor is higher.
The *fun* factor is ofc decided by several factors such as game balance and making teams somewhat even so that its less likely to get facerolled by other teams.
But the better the reward the less the balance in the game has to be for people to stay in matches.
Your conclusion that Neverwinter is not about pvp and therefore the solutions that concerns pvp are expected to be less *fun* then the pve part of the game is based on your perception of the game and not a *truth* or some other persons reality.
I don't know if that's what his point was, really. It's more that this game was designed as a PvE game, with added PvP content, but the devs created such an intrinsically fun combat system that PvP-ers enjoy playing it. However, the supporting "strategic" structure around PvP just isn't there yet - the devs were caught on the hop, as it were, and are scrambling to try and capitalize on the fact that PvP-ers enjoy the fun combat they've designed.
The trouble is, the way these games are developed, most of the dev time is front-loaded, once the game is basically built, it's more a question of building on top of what exists, with a smaller team. For this game, that would normally have been the PvE side, and the PvE side is still what's going to get the lion's share of development time, even though they've probably had to adjust as much as they can to the popularity of the PvP.
So I'm sure the PvP will develop, it's just that it's a race between the devs available and the boredom threshold of PvP-ers dealing with the waiting as the supporting side of the PvP (types of matches, ways of making it "fun" and rewarding as a competitive PvP game overall, etc.) gradually gets done. And from the devs point of view, they have to make a calculation as to how quickly they can do stuff vs. how quickly PvP-ers will get bored and move to another game if stuff isn't done fast enough.
Interestingly, something similar happened with CoH, Cryptic's first game. Cryptic have always been pretty good at developing fun combat, it's definitely one of their house strengths. CoH's superhero combat was incredible at the time - very fast, involving flight and super-speed. No other game could match it at the time (this was just before WoW became such a huge thing - actually for a very brief moment before WoW, CoH was the second biggest MMO at the time, after EQ). At first CoH had no PvP at all, but they developed some sketchy superhero-vs.-superhero arena thing, but it became very popular with some hardcore PvP-ers at the time, mainly because of the speed of the action (for an MMO). Again, Cryptic were sort of caught on the hop, they'd created better than they knew, but they just weren't able to capitalize on it; they also made some bad mistakes in developing the PvP, so the fun factor changed (they made some unpopular changes to the PvE at the time too). Fairly quickly, people got bored and moved on. I think, as a company, having had that experience in their genetic memory, they'll probably do better this time round, but it's amusing that it's somewhat similar of a situation.
In an ideal PVP game, gear would be just a tool used to achieve a goal but as you can see from the last patch obtaining gear in this game is a long and painful grind process. The gear is the reward here which satisfies the player's need of acquisition.
This wasn't created to promote a balanced PVP environment but to keep you playing as long as they can, chasing the juicy carrot at the end of the stick, no offense but this is how the devs see the players.
I cropped your post George but I agree with all of it, your first paragraph pretty much sums it up I think.
It makes a lot of sense how you broke it all down George. How a new game, goes from a large Development team from the beginning, to a bare bones minimal team after the game is released. This makes sense to me. As they are a large company, making games constantly and not focusing all their eggs in one basket so to speak.
What doesn't make sense to me is this. They created an absolutely beautiful, amazing(for the most part), completely fluid game, with excellent, fast paced combat, PvP and PvE. This is the first D&D game I have actually played so I really have no frame of reference to base any opinion on except from Neverwinter. Everyone says D&D games are "supposed" to JUST be PvE. But...with such an excellent palate, its a no brainer why people like myself, who thrive on PvP, were drawn to this game, and are desperately seeking more from Cryptic as far as the PvP is concerned.
Someone had made a comment that. Say they actually did all these 8 changes I have mentioned, that it would turn this PvE game, into a PvP one. I just am not seeing that. I keep going back to the point that, PvP is an Optional feature. I am not asking for a purely open world PvP environment(althought I would love it)its not what we, as a PvP community are asking for. We are consumers just like the pure PvE players. They made an amazing combat system, its Cryptics fault we are asking for more
Its obvious they see how much people have enjoyed this game and the PvP aspect. I commend them, I truly do, on the hard work they put into "trying" to accommodate us PvP'rs by this latest patch. Now I am not saying this patch is a total flop, but my own personal opinion, is they should have waited..and done much more testing, and actually listened to the player base more, on the hundreds of posts made about PvP, and all the knowledge that was being thrown at them on how to improve the playstyle of PvP, and keep people playing. But they have continually proven to quite literally do the opposite of what almost the entire player base has been telling them.
From day 1 I have loved this game, and have encouraged all of my RL friends, and gamer buddies I have been playing games with for years, some since EQ 1. If a couple months ago they would just given us even ONE more map to play in, I can bet you thousands of people that quit, would still be playing.
Cryptic is at a crucial moment right now whether they realize it or not. With a new MMO less than a month from a live release, and another highly anticipated MMO also right around the corner, the attention span of players constantly being disappointed by unfixed bugs, and patches that "feel" thrown together, are easily going to make a transition to a new game, with hopes of finding something better.
This was never an "I quit" thread, or some flame towards Cryptic. Like I said, I've always loved this game and been on Cryptics side. I just want to see it succeed. So I made this thread, in hopes that hopefully they atleast read it, and maybe consider some of the things I have mentioned. Because those things, have kept players in games for 10+ years.
Sorry for the long windedness, thx for reading if you've gotten this far
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'