Build Thoughts

Comments

• kweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User

  February 2014 edited February 2014

  godlysoul1 wrote: »

  ...The idea was that it could would be able to handle GWFs solo much better due to the spike damage capability, with the hope that if fighting another stealthed based, perhaps bilthorn rogue, that with proper timing/setup in addition to a bit of luck, would still be able to win if it could land LB a couple times...
  
  ...
  
  Any thoughts?

  
  
  Switch LB to Dazing Strike, would be my recommendation.
  
  With this setup you've mentioned, everything will rely on whether you will be able to successfully land the 'prime-attack' of your arsenal, which would be Lashing Blade with an expectancy of over 20k damage on squishies.
  
  The problem is that LB, while powerful, also leaves you open to immediate retaliation. Inexperienced people usually panic when that big "15000" number fills your screen, but we all know more experienced ones stay calm, and actively seek to retaliate as soon and as hard as possible. Especially GWFs, blessed with a knock-prone that activates almost instantaneously.
  
  Another problem LB has, is that its recharge is pretty slow. Pretty much around two stealth durations until the power is available for use again.
  
  
  ...
  
  Hence, I'd recommend Dazing Strike.
  
  * Recharge takes less than half the time of LB , damage is more than half LB (= higher actual DPS than LB)
  * Activation during stealth is almost as fast as LB
  * Target is dazed -- denies their immediate retaliation, gives you time for follow-up attacks before escaping
  
  
  Works like a charm especially against GWFs -- basic tactic would be to hit DaS and attack while Unstoppable is off, and then immediately escape just before Unstoppable comes on, and rinse and repeat.
  
  From my experience, I'm pretty much convinced now that Dazing Strike, is probably the best single-attack melee power a TR has, and far outweighs LB in efficiency.

  Stop making excuses. Be a man.
  If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
  Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  

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• todesfaelle Member Posts: 1,370 Arc User

  February 2014 edited February 2014

  This will work, that I can tell you for sure. I'm running the same encounter setup for PVP when the opposing team does not have 2 GWF's. When they do have 2 GWF's, I slot BnS in place of LB because there's no playing against 2 IV Sents unless they are equal to my paltry gear score which is highly unlikely. I'll be as underhanded as possible to steal a win against monsters.
  
  Something I would change with your setup would be Tenacious Concealment, maybe change it for something else like Sneak Attack or Skillful Infiltrator. If you want to incorporate a 1 shot playstyle as a perma, you'll most likely have to have an escape mechanic ready. The only time I'd slot Tenacious Concealment would be up against Bilethorn users or PoB users. But it's not something one will need slotted all the time.
  
  What I use are the following.
  
  At-Wills: Gloaming Cut, Duelist's Flurry/Cloud of Steel. (DF if against melee/DC, CoS if against ranged/rogues)
  Encounters: Lashing Blade, Shadow Strike, Impossible to Catch.
  Class Features: Sneak Attack, Skillful Infiltrator/Invisible Infiltrator. (Skillful Infiltrator if AP bar is not full, Invisible Infiltrator once AP bar is full and I'm back-capping)
  Dailies: Lurker's Assault, Shocking Execution.
  
  Lurker's Assault + Invisible Infiltrator and Lashing Blade can be scary. It's a pseudo 1-shot. And Kweassa is right, LB lasts too long in order to be effectively uses like Impact Shot/ITC/SS. But if you have Gloaming Cut feated with Sneaky Stabber, and if you have a full Twilight Adept, you can use both of them as Stealth Extenders in order to have Lashing Blade ready for use before your Stealth ends. I'm currently working to make this build more usable for me. I'll need 33% RSI (20 INT, 3.2k Recovery), and I'll be stacking ArPen until 2535 (24%), and stack as much Power as possible in order to increase the flat damage of the guaranteed crit.
  
  I'll be getting rid of my 2x Seal of the Executioner in order to make more space for Reocvery, ArP and Power, and just get my Regen from Artifacts and the 250 Regen Boon. I have tons of Life Steal as well, and Endless Consumption from Dread Ring. I think that should be more than enough Sustain when I am able to heal 2k in 1 pop with Gloaming Cut.
  
  Such a setup will allow players to contest nodes while having LB in place of Impact Shot or BnS.

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• tricksterknight Member Posts: 74

  February 2014 edited February 2014

  this feels almost like a glass cannon build, where does your defense sit in?, from what i see, if you do this build it would leave you quite vulnerable to well built stealth rogues. the regen ticks would not be as big with lower HP, I could be wrong about the glass cannon perception, but sure seems like it to me.

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• kweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User

  February 2014 edited February 2014

  tricksterknight wrote: »

  this feels almost like a glass cannon build, where does your defense sit in?, from what i see, if you do this build it would leave you quite vulnerable to well built stealth rogues. the regen ticks would not be as big with lower HP, I could be wrong about the glass cannon perception, but sure seems like it to me.

  
  Hence, my suggestion on Dazing Strike. If it hits, that's your defense.

  Stop making excuses. Be a man.
  If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
  Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  

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• iarus87 Member Posts: 62

  February 2014 edited February 2014

  IS deals more damage and if you fail to land it you aren't screwed However, DS suggestion is quite good!
  
  About GC, i'm currently using it but i don't know...damage is good if under 50% and as a single strike is quite good and easy to land even w/o that much skill, but DF's damage is really really good...really don't know!

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• spicen Member Posts: 248 Bounty Hunter

  February 2014 edited February 2014

  kweassa wrote: »

  Hence, my suggestion on Dazing Strike. If it hits, that's your defense.

  
  If it hits the other rogue will just simply use itc to get out of daze or run around until the duration is done. I assume folks here are talking about a 1v1 situation, smoke bomb or dazing won't ever be good in a 1v1 against other TR. In group fights dazes can be valuable but that's still highly situational. The best way would be to use either impact shot or lashing blade and time the use of those encounters really well.

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• copycat818 Member Posts: 62

  February 2014 edited February 2014

  Is this build really that good because once tenacity hits than obviously this kind of build will be meh!! And with this one shot build you are going with wouldn't a half orc race with a 18/18 str/dex Starting roll would be the best. Or may be str/cha not very sure since cha give combat advantage and lb require you to be in stealth and that you already gain combat advantage And when your lb land it will be a big number

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• kweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User

  February 2014 edited February 2014

  spicen wrote: »

  If it hits the other rogue will just simply use itc to get out of daze or run around until the duration is done. I assume folks here are talking about a 1v1 situation, smoke bomb or dazing won't ever be good in a 1v1 against other TR. In group fights dazes can be valuable but that's still highly situational. The best way would be to use either impact shot or lashing blade and time the use of those encounters really well.

  
  So you're saying forcing the opposing rogue to use ITC 'ahead of schedule' prior to his normal ITC rotation timing is useless?
  
  Cool story, bro.

  Stop making excuses. Be a man.
  If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
  Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  

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• godlysoul Member Posts: 12 Arc User

  February 2014 edited February 2014

  tricksterknight wrote: »

  this feels almost like a glass cannon build, where does your defense sit in?, from what i see, if you do this build it would leave you quite vulnerable to well built stealth rogues. the regen ticks would not be as big with lower HP, I could be wrong about the glass cannon perception, but sure seems like it to me.

  
  No, it definitely is, but that doesn't mean it isn't also a survivability build by going with stealth feats. You also have to take into consideration people will be smacking you while you may be immune, like in DF, but not with any damage debuffs. Also, while ITC will block 75% of damage, you can still take reasonable damage while this is up, especially 2v1. This is aside from the fact that sometimes you may get flushed out or proned at just the right time and lose 90% of hp, but can stealth back up and regen. Once you try regen, you don't go back. It's crucial to survivability and why it is getting downgraded in the upcoming patches.
  
  Again though, the defense comes from the stealth rotation capabilities that I wont go into the specifics of.
  

  iarus87 wrote: »

  IS deals more damage and if you fail to land it you aren't screwed However, DS suggestion is quite good!
  
  About GC, i'm currently using it but i don't know...damage is good if under 50% and as a single strike is quite good and easy to land even w/o that much skill, but DF's damage is really really good...really don't know!

  
  This may be true, but I wouldn't be so quick to come to that conclusion. It would also depend on if u had overrun crit up and how often you crit it. You have to consider all of the modifiers such as overrun crit, vorpal, and first strike with the 100% crit chance. The reason I liked this setup though is specifically because LB is 1 move and such high burst damage. The fact that it is 1 move means you can get it out of the way and then continue with your stealth rotation. Impact shot will leave you open while you are using the charges. This becomes a much larger issue in multiple v 1 situations. You could argue that you would just use them all from ITC. However, then you would lose the opportunity to increase your immunity window of ITC by using duelist fury following it. Another thing to note is that landing duelist fury after it gives you a chance to reduce encounter CD by 1 sec every time it hits. For this build that isn't pure stealth, these are things to consider. Also, I thought LB would be better for taking out GWFs rather than giving them another opportunity to go unstoppable if your IS didn't hit for enough damage.
  
  Another thing to note is that LB will be used from stealth most if not all of the time. As long as you are not heading into someone head on, it should not be as easy to dodge if you are timing it right, counting their dodges, and anticipating their dodges.

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• spicen Member Posts: 248 Bounty Hunter

  February 2014 edited February 2014

  kweassa wrote: »

  So you're saying forcing the opposing rogue to use ITC 'ahead of schedule' prior to his normal ITC rotation timing is useless?
  
  Cool story, bro.

  
  First of all, you wont even get to force out that itc with dazing, unless you can surprise him which means it's not a 1v1. Second, if you use smoke bomb instead, he wont even bother using itc if hes stealthed and just wait the daze out and now you're vulnerable to his retaliation. So this leaves us with only dazing as viable, and even if it's viable it's so slow to land outside of stealth you wont ever land it, and against a good perma rogue, he wont give you a chance to land it from stealth. Is this explanation cool enough for you now?

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• kweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User

  February 2014 edited February 2014

  spicen wrote: »

  First of all, you wont even get to force out that itc with dazing, unless you can surprise him which means it's not a 1v1. Second, if you use smoke bomb instead, he wont even bother using itc if hes stealthed and just wait the daze out and now you're vulnerable to his retaliation. So this leaves us with only dazing as viable, and even if it's viable it's so slow to land outside of stealth you wont ever land it, and against a good perma rogue, he wont give you a chance to land it from stealth. Is this explanation cool enough for you now?

  
  You make a lot of assumptions that seem to be severely limited to a weird sort of "perfect duel hypothesis", especially in terms of how TRs react, or what works and does not. (A reminder here; the general premise of this build godly has brought up, was never only about TR vs TR 1-vs-1 scenarios in the first place -- you were the first one to (for some reason) bring it up).
  
  First of all, both you and I know things never work out always as expected, and a lot of times a clandestine encounter, a brief visual of stealth TR passing by, an unexpected "blind-hit", or any number of variables may effect a TR vs TR fight -- even if both of them are perma. Under your (implied) theory, if both TRs are perma, then what, an endless merry-go-round of non-combat?
  
  Clearly, this isn't the way it goes in the field. You know this. In the field, unless its a proposed 1-vs-1 where two TRs meet at exact same conditions at a promised location, there's always something that makes anyone enter combat under any variety of non-perfect conditions. Getting chances to hit Dazing Strike against perma, or semi-perma TRs, happens all the time.
  
  Secondly, at this point I'm expecting the infamous hypothetical argument of how a "really pro TR will never allow such a thing to happen so its not viable". In that case, I'll report on the results when I actually see and meet one in PvP. So far, the only time's I've seen those "really pro" guys were when they were larrying along all their goon-squad in a huge pompous premade team, so with all their natural steam-rolling all the PuG teams I've operated with, I never really had a chance to 1-vs-1. (It would be noteworthy to mention that I've landed DaS in all sorts of situations even when the team was simply squashed by all their pompous premade-glory, tho')
  
  Finally, this part; "and against a good perma rogue, he wont give you a chance to land it from stealth", simply a repetition of the "never works against skilled ones", argument.
  
  What can I say? How about this one?
  
  "Then I'm going to suppose the attacker is as much a 'good perma rogue', and will find a way to land one."
  
  Ah, the futility of the mythical "a skilled person" in PvP theory debates, eh?
  
  
  (ps) Need more hypothetical conditions to make it way more cool!

  Stop making excuses. Be a man.
  If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
  Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  

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• todesfaelle Member Posts: 1,370 Arc User

  February 2014 edited February 2014

  kweassa wrote: »

  ...if both TRs are perma, then what, an endless merry-go-round of non-combat?

  
  These sort of matches are actually pretty fun. I honestly have the most fun fighting permastealth rogues compared to others. It's not exactly a merry-go-round of non-combat as you're imagining it to be, though majority of the time, you'll be sizing each other up and getting a feel of how your opponent behaves/moves/reacts. Since both of you are under the cloak of Stealth for prolonged periods of time, the challenge in the 1 v 1 will then be how you'll take the other out of stealth before you do, and to see who has the better understanding of the opponent's behavior and mannerisms. It's a test of craftiness, and knowledge of the opponent. A battle of wits, observational skills and intelligence rather than seeing who stunlocks and bursts the other first, where the one with the least latency wins. It's a fun challenge for melee stealth rogues like me, since I have to be within the vicinity of the unseen opponent and predict correctly if I want to strike him down with all the glory of Gloaming Cut.
  
  And since you're looking for a stealth TR who almost always PUGs, I'd gladly volunteer to be your test dummy. When do you you usually Q up for PVP? I'm honestly curious about your Whisperknife in-and-out play style in PVP. I rarely find good Whisperknives (only found 2 so far) and you really seem like you know what you are talking about. I've seen your combo vids too. They look really polished and interesting. I am not a pro TR, but I believe I can compete with the standards.
  
  And maybe in the future, you should join me, Vasdamas, and other TR's I can pick up in a match I've been planning. An All-TR 5 vs. 5 match. I'd love to get more Whisperknives in there as well, and randomly group up the 10 participants. Then we just have fun while 1 guy from each team records the match.

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• kweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User

  February 2014 edited February 2014

  todesfaelle wrote: »

  These sort of matches are actually pretty fun. I honestly have the most fun fighting permastealth rogues compared to others. It's not exactly a merry-go-round of non-combat as you're imagining it to be, though majority of the time, you'll be sizing each other up and getting a feel of how your opponent behaves/moves/reacts.

  
  I know, tod. It was a cynical rebuttal. When a perma meets a perma it's a wild search and a guessing game, and while things may be quiet for some time if two TRs with comparable stat/gears meet at exactly equal conditions with no interference whatsoever, the thing is, we all know that PvP hardly works out that way. It is a dynamical environment with a lot of other players as well. There's always something going on, and the conditions you enter the fight may not all be at your own choosing. That was the point I was making.
  
  spicen keeps bringing up the "hypothetical 1-vs-1" situation where (for some odd reason) you ALWAYS are up against this, mythical "perfect TR", while (again, for some reason) you are always the underdog, so your attempts never work, your combos never connect, you always run out of stealth first, whereas the other guy always has the impeccable perfect timing, perfect landing combos, perfect power rotation, perfect Duel Flurry guesswork, perfect game-plan.
  
  No ambush works, no surprise works, the other guy don't panic, don't make mistakes, and always evades my every move. So unless you are using the exact same build as the other guy, use exact same power choices and gear settings, exact same perma, exact same regen/INT focus, exact same Bilethorn, exact same everything, nothing's ever "viable". It never works. Period.
  
  That was what I was trying to criticize.
  
  

  Since both of you are under the cloak of Stealth for prolonged periods of time, the challenge in the 1 v 1 will then be how you'll take the other out of stealth before you do, and to see who has the better understanding of the opponent's behavior and mannerisms. It's a test of craftiness, and knowledge of the opponent. A battle of wits, observational skills and intelligence rather than seeing who stunlocks and bursts the other first, where the one with the least latency wins. It's a fun challenge for melee stealth rogues like me, since I have to be within the vicinity of the unseen opponent and predict correctly if I want to strike him down with all the glory of Gloaming Cut.

  
  Always wondered about this; Does Gloaming Cut hit with 'guesswork'? Like, you know sometimes how a TR makes a "guesswork" activation of Lashing Blades if he anticipates the enemy TR will come into melee vicinity at a certain point, and it would connect before the two TRs come into detection range of each other. Can you do that with Gloaming Cut as well?
  
  

  And since you're looking for a stealth TR who almost always PUGs, I'd gladly volunteer to be your test dummy. When do you you usually Q up for PVP? I'm honestly curious about your Whisperknife in-and-out play style in PVP. I rarely find good Whisperknives (only found 2 so far) and you really seem like you know what you are talking about. I've seen your combo vids too. They look really polished and interesting. I am not a pro TR, but I believe I can compete with the standards.
  
  And maybe in the future, you should join me, Vasdamas, and other TR's I can pick up in a match I've been planning. An All-TR 5 vs. 5 match. I'd love to get more Whisperknives in there as well, and randomly group up the 10 participants. Then we just have fun while 1 guy from each team records the match.

  
  You flatter me;;;
  
  I'm not sure if there's time to queue tho', since I reside at the opposite side of the globe, GMT +9:00. The only premades I see in this time zone are guys like Darkness, Seraphim, Turk Ordusu and etc.. (...and half the PuGs are the Pomocy! and Yardim Edin! guys (joke. No offense to Turks and Poles)) and generally my guess is the quality of players are admittedly a lot lower than US/Europe prime time (smaller demographics = smaller proportionate population of good players). The only time I get to play odd hours are like on Friday nights and Saturday morning hours, which usually is prime time for US Pacific time zones.
  
  
  ... it's times like this I dearly wish NW had a sort of a 'free-fighting' arena type of area, where people can gather, chat, and test out skills and tactics without having to rely on a clandestine meet-up in the PvP queues.

  Stop making excuses. Be a man.
  If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
  Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  

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• todesfaelle Member Posts: 1,370 Arc User

  February 2014 edited February 2014

  kweassa wrote: »

  I know, tod. It was a cynical rebuttal. When a perma meets a perma it's a wild search and a guessing game, and while things may be quiet for some time if two TRs with comparable stat/gears meet at exactly equal conditions with no interference whatsoever, the thing is, we all know that PvP hardly works out that way. It is a dynamical environment with a lot of other players as well. There's always something going on, and the conditions you enter the fight may not all be at your own choosing. That was the point I was making.
  
  spicen keeps bringing up the "hypothetical 1-vs-1" situation where (for some odd reason) you ALWAYS are up against this, mythical "perfect TR", while (again, for some reason) you are always the underdog, so your attempts never work, your combos never connect, you always run out of stealth first, whereas the other guy always has the impeccable perfect timing, perfect landing combos, perfect power rotation, perfect Duel Flurry guesswork, perfect game-plan.
  
  No ambush works, no surprise works, the other guy don't panic, don't make mistakes, and always evades my every move. So unless you are using the exact same build as the other guy, use exact same power choices and gear settings, exact same perma, exact same regen/INT focus, exact same Bilethorn, exact same everything, nothing's ever "viable". It never works. Period.
  
  That was what I was trying to criticize.

  
  I see, I get what you mean. As a player who has PUG-ed during most of his stay in NW PVP, the factors you mentioned do appear consistently in PUG PVP scenarios.
  

  Always wondered about this; Does Gloaming Cut hit with 'guesswork'? Like, you know sometimes how a TR makes a "guesswork" activation of Lashing Blades if he anticipates the enemy TR will come into melee vicinity at a certain point, and it would connect before the two TRs come into detection range of each other. Can you do that with Gloaming Cut as well?

  
  Guesswork? Hmmm... I don't think so. I'm not sure if this counts as guesswork, but I have to be within 10' of my enemy and see his silhouette before Gloaming Cut auto-targets on him. So the slower he moves, the easier I can hit him, because he'll get out of my line of sight less faster. But most permas will have Sneak Attack slotted so I need to find out my opponent's manners of movement and position myself where he has a high chance of showing his silhouette. But there are some who have unusual choices in Class Features which makes them really easy to hit with Gloaming Cut. So I guess the short answer will be no, it doesn't seem to hit with guesswork. The silhouette has to be seen before the attack is activated and it can't be done vice versa where you press Gloaming Cut first and then it homes in on the opponent. You'll just end up hitting air, and if you do not have a dodge ready when that happens, you'll be prone to CoS or DF because you will be within the proximity of the opponent's 10' field of vision.
  
  People will sometimes talk smack at you for using Gloaming Cut in PVP. Can't blame them though, it's an often misunderstood skill, that is until it starts dealing 8 - 11k crits on them when their HP is below 50%, which is pretty decent for a non-DF melee At-Will. Only us Rogues get At-Wills that hit this hard (with the exception of an HR's Aimed Shot) and it's a waste not to use them when you have them.
  

  You flatter me;;;
  
  I'm not sure if there's time to queue tho', since I reside at the opposite side of the globe, GMT +9:00. The only premades I see in this time zone are guys like Darkness, Seraphim, Turk Ordusu and etc.. (...and half the PuGs are the Pomocy! and Yardim Edin! guys (joke. No offense to Turks and Poles)) and generally my guess is the quality of players are admittedly a lot lower than US/Europe prime time (smaller demographics = smaller proportionate population of good players). The only time I get to play odd hours are like on Friday nights and Saturday morning hours, which usually is prime time for US Pacific time zones.
  
  ... it's times like this I dearly wish NW had a sort of a 'free-fighting' arena type of area, where people can gather, chat, and test out skills and tactics without having to rely on a clandestine meet-up in the PvP queues.

  
  Oh nice. I'm in GMT +8:00. We live pretty close it seems. I'm also from the other side of the globe (hence explaining my bad command over the English language). Let's catch each other one of these days if we can, man. I always play around 7 or 8 PM your time. And I agree with you a WHOLE lot. I'm dying for some sort of dueling system where I don't have to go to a PVP match just to be able to play against friends. Mod 3 should have some significant PVP revamps ready.
  
  Let's hope for the best.

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