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Lets talk about Trickster Rogues.
unholydragonking
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 147 Arc User
The the usefulness of TR's in squads has, in my opinion, dropped sharply since the game came out of open beta. They're supposed to be a DD class and yet every time I'm in a squad, be it on my own TR or another class with a TR in squad, they're just not able to live up to the 'Dps class' title anymore, and that sucks for me because TR is my favorite class. Again, this is just my opinion, I'm sure there are others who think differently and I'm curious to see what others think. (In a PvE sense.)
Should Rogues be given a boost to help them become a viable DD again? Or Maybe you think the other classes need a nerf? I just wanted to get others thoughts on the matter so if people think that TR's do need to be improved, the Dev team might take notice.
Should Rogues be given a boost to help them become a viable DD again? Or Maybe you think the other classes need a nerf? I just wanted to get others thoughts on the matter so if people think that TR's do need to be improved, the Dev team might take notice.
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CW
GWF
DC
TR
HR
GF
I would say that the TR is the least of the worries at the moment.. And in a fact a good and skilled TR is an amazing asset to a group.. Poorly played TRs are not!
For VT I like a setup like 2 cw, 2 gwf, 1 tr. Or 1 cw, 2 gwf, 1 tr, 1 dc. Not set in stone, I can take a HR/GF too, not really a big difference. I just like having GWF's because of student of the sword.
TRs are very useful, however mostly for... ummm... improved dungeon techniques, instead of damage dealers.
Is this bad?
You can bet it's bad.
TRs need to deal same amount of damage as the top damage dealers, i.e. the GWFs and the CWs.
There are pretty much 2 ways to achieve this:
- bandaid way: give TRs proper AoE abilities, with enough damage
- the proper way, which we discussed SO MANY TIMES before and which would solve SO MANY ISSUES with dungeons:
Change dungeon design. Introduce magic immune shielded mobs. Make adds more dangerous, mechanics more complex, and their numbers fewer, so AoE is no longer so important.
I've seen a TR solo-ing a GG crypt. I still have to see another class doing that. I don't remember either OS-ing a TR in pvp.
I'd say, TRs need to be nerfed, or all the other classes given a boost.
Until that happens (and hopefully the final form of tenacity does it) then trs can be given their single target damage back. Its sad as tr was my first class so i always give them a spot in group but they are pretty useless and they know that i know i am carrying them.
Don't know what to tell you. I've topped the "damage dealt" chart in most skirms or dungeons I've done, & I'm not even an especially good Rogue. If I learned how to REALLY "exploit" our stealth mechanic, I'd be a lot better than I am, but even so I still do pretty good.
/shrug
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
If you think 2-4 cw per group is bad now, Further nerfing of cc in pve will result in 5 cw groups as the norm. 1-2 Gwfs interchangable, until the take away deep gash and then only cws will have a spot in groups.
Cw dps needs to be 1/3 to 1/2 of what it is currently and all of the target cap and cc nerfs need to be reversed. Couple this with a rebalance of deep gash to bring gwf dmg sown a bit as well and 1 cw should be enough to control the controllable adds while other classes actually kill them. Non controllable adds could then be off tanked or burned down and classes other than cw/gwf would find that their role in groups actually exists again.
What I'm thinking of is that the type of CC inflicted to a mob will have a certain number associated with it. Daze/Prone/Stun will have the highest values while Slow/Knockback/Push/Pull/Interrupt will have lower values. Once the mob passes a certain threshold with these numbers within a short span of time, they become immune to CC. And sure, you are right. With this system, people can still bring 4 CW's. But it doesn't mean that having 4 CW's will be an effective way to run dungeons with this system. They can go turtle mode with their CC's and carefully take turns in casting their spells but that will essentially slow things down further.
Changing the DPS of a class because of how the environment is broken is not the way to fix things, though this is just one man's opinion. In the end these are all just mere ideas. It's not like it'll get implemented anyway.
I get what you are saying, i don't think you understand what im saying. Right now meta is 4 aoe dps classes typically 2-3 cw and 1-2gwf. More and more run 5 aoe dps no dc. Mobs currently live 2-3 seconds regardless of hp. You could remove all cc from cw spells and it would not impact the meta at all. Dead mobs do not need to be cc'd.
Adding enrage to cc, again something that is only a side effect of cw aoe dmg spells and is not the primary motivation for casting them, will only serve to ensure that groups play it safe and add more aoe dps to ensure mobs die before they can enrage. Thus 5cw becomes the norm.
We need a system that will discourage people from stacking too much CC users, and dropping a CW's DPS is a lazy way to do it in my opinion. It's the environment that's broken and not the player class itself IMO.
1)quality over quantity - reduce number of mobs, but make them stronger. make few strong mobs that are surrounded by bunch of trash for blowing up, then you could make the big mobs immune to most cc(though they should be still affected by moving effects like singularity, cagi, shield etc.)
2) remove/reduce cc from mobs. the main reason i wont play GF/TR/Melee HR is that its not fun spending 1/3 of the fight dodging cc, 1/3 being prone/getting knocked back and 1/3 actually fighting the mobs. new dungeons are much better than smth like pk where you get knocked back every 0.1273 seconds
after this they should force CW to chose dps vs cc - change skills so the best cc skills dont do most dmg, there are a lot of spells from lore they could use for either cc or dmg
that would leave cw/gwf/hr for aoe dps, would increase single target portion of dungeon for tr's to be more useful, clerics are nice to have anyway, unless you are overgeared and do speed runs, that only leaves gf, action games dont really need tanks(at the old tank and spank style ones) they should make gf an alternative for gwf, with less aoe but better single target capabilities
Eh we're quickly approaching the point where it's simply better to agree to disagree. That being said I still do not believe you are seeing the big picture. In high AOE DPS groups it has nothing to do with CC. Mobs get to attack already, once, when they are initially aggro'd. After that they are dead. Every single one of them could be CC immune and it would change nothing, other than to further reinforce 4-5 CW groups.
Mobs function exactly like companions in that they do not have at wills. They have typically 1-3 encounters with animations and cooldowns. It does vary by mob but on average they only attack every 2-3 seconds anyway without any CC effects being used. The initial volley of mob attacks is either absorbed by a GWF or is dodge immuned by a CW at which point a collection of bowling balls, oppressive force, lightning bolts, and 2 handed swords reduce the mobs hp to 0 before they can attack again. Nerfing CC is not the way to balance classes in PVE, it's actually the opposite of what needs to be done.
This is often the response cited by CW's of "how to fix the game" who are keen to maintain the status quo of CW dominance in PVE.
You say the environment is broken, and this is I believe where we fundamentally disagree. The CW has maintained 100% PVE dominance without break since open beta began, and in attempt to counteract this, dev's have listened to suggestions like yours to nerf their CC (and subsequently increase their DPS with bug fixes) which has time and time again resulted in improving the CW's dominance of PVE, instead of doing what they should have done initially which is nerfing their damage.
CWs are the highest AOE DPS class and thus the highest overall damage class in the game. As long as that is true then they will always be stacked and 5 CWs will always be more efficient than any other combination of classes. The only place where this is not true is the 2 most recent dungeons end boss only, where a focus shift to single target only (unless you mess up) in which case a combination of GWF/CW becomes overall more efficient than purely CW. And that is only true so long as GWF single target outpaces CW single target enough to make up for their deficiencies in AOE compared to CWs. Any change to deep gash will ensure that 5 CW remains not only the optimal party, but the most common as well.
The CW response to this is to retroactively alter the design of every single dungeon in game, the type and number of every single mob placement, implement gimmicky mechanics such as spell shields that require melee dmg to break through or enrage CC immunity suggestions such as yours, etc.
Given the length of time it's taken for simple bug/exploit fixes of dungeons and the time it takes to release a new one (4 months or so on average) and given that those new dungeons have maintained the status quo of metric #@%ton of CCable adds, one off CC immune ones and only vary at all with the final boss encounter itself, any suggestion to radically alter the way the entire game is designed is either a pipe dream or a stalling tactic to maintain the status quo.
nerfing CW dps, call it lazy if you like, but its not only necessary but actually realistic given the dev time required for any other alternative. Give them back all of their control and then some, but their damage has to go. Then and only then you can bring GWF's damage down with the deep gash rebalance. You'll still need/want 1 CW to control all the controllable adds, but adding more CW doesn't result in mobs dying so fast that tanking, healing, debuffing, CC, single target damage, etc no longer has time to matter.
Consider say VT. Everything is controllable, but even if everything were immune, you'd still want to stack CW instead of other classes primarily because CWs are the only class where you have a large number of powers with no target cap, allowing you to herd enemies across several rooms before blasting them.
Try 5 CW vs 5 GWF equally geared to complete VT or MC up until (but not including) first boss to see that you can do it much faster than with 5 GWFs or a mix other other classes not including a CW. Similarly Frozen Heart from end of first boss to before start of 2nd boss.
The problem is that CWs not only bring a fair amount of control, but also a huge amount of damage. I'm all for relaxing target caps on control spells (Shield, Repel M, Entangling Force, Ice Storm, Conduit) if the base damage of certain other spells (Singularity, Shard, Sudden Storm, Chilling Cloud) was decreased by 33-38% from their current values.
Doing so would make stacking CWs result in a smoother and easier, but also much slower dungeon, hence making people welcome other classes to join the group to actually kill the enemies that have been controlled.
Do this, and fix Deep Gash damage, and every class will have a space in the group (especially with the upcoming buffs to GF in regards to aggro control)
This, I guess, is certainly a problem. The new PvP patch in works, seemingly, will make it even easier for perma/semi-perma folk, since they could now probably relocate some of the investments in feats/powers/points to other traits to up the damage, and still retain the same stealth duration. 30% bonus is simply huge.
In my case, I'm not even a really dedicated PvE build, but at the worst, still retain maybe around 3rd place in Paingiver/Executioner rank. The Whisperknife/Scoundrel build, at least with my recent experimentation, are definately more oriented with AoE type of damage and general wide-area suppression, rather than the single-target pattern MI builds have -- meaning: AoE oriented builds do tend to show higher overall damage than single-target.
Whatever it still lacks in pure damage, it makes up with the frequency of daily powers activation, since it can full-charge APs and use dailies at around every 1.5 fights frequency.
In my case, truthfully speaking, I don't see the chained/ranged-knocks as the main problem with GWFs.
Yes, I think it is bullshi*, and I hate the way its ranged + AoE, that they can just point at any direction they've seen the TR stealth away and swing blindly, and still register a hit.
But no, the real problem is, with the goddarn regen-focused builds, its practically near impossible to bring one down once they are geared. (That goes the same for some TR builds, for that matter).
Everything involved with GWFs are simply too easy and dumbed down, that any skill-less fool, just so long as they have enough gear, can become a raging bull that takes at least two or three very skilled players to bring down -- and it takes a lot of effort, massive concentration, and zero mistakes, to do so.
The future of the TR, IMO, lies with how much people can see through the new meta, and boldy attempt different builds, all from scratch, right from the bottom. IMO there are still a lot of possible builds and powers that need experimenting, and probably those who can shake off the addiction to the easy-mode perma/ITC-rotation/ranged TR builds, could be the fore-runners to discover new things and ideas for everyone.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I really don't understand why the devs refuse to introduce fights that take literally minutes with high hp opponents, but with few enemies. This would fix the CW problem completely.
In some of the dungeons it seems like it is the goal of the devs to put as many mobs on screen as possible. OF COURSE CWS WILL BE OP IF YOU CONTINUE TO DO THIS
A big issue with this game is that you don't need any tanking which is plain stupid since they have a tank class. The problem is with the mechanics.. even if you buffed enemy damage significantly a tank would still be unneeded. The mechanics would need to be altered.
Who am I kidding? there is a reason wow is the most successful mmo ever. They do things the right way. For this game to be better they would need to make it more like wow
This game doesn't have mana pools... there is no punishment for taking your time to kill enemies which ultimately makes TRs irrelevant. Bursting down a Boss is of mere convenience. If this was a good game, which its not, systems would be in place to ensure the value of other classes
Aka mana pools
Aka you cant totally avoid damage because you can dodge, and bosses actually attack you instead of simply attacking the air making it so you can dance around them. (allowing squishy classes to tank the toughest mobs in the game)
When I first got to level 60 and started doing PK my friend told me that I would be soloing the bosses. I was like lol wut? ME? a TR?
Lets face it, this game will always be fun because of its mechanics, but for that same reason it will never be a good MMO
Would you ever efficiently farm something with no CWs? Of course not, it is very annoying to run down mobs, people spend a lot of time kiting, AOEs don't work properly and team DPS is horrible. The very few no CW runs i have been on are very long painful experiences i have no desire to repeat.
How about 1CW? sure, i think that works fine if the CW is actually good, is overgeared, and has the control pets. I can solo CW every instance in this game, but I am overgeared, have the correct bonus, have a great spec, and I've run every one 100+ times. That's not a fair judge to say, a 10k party trying to clear spellplague. While you can get it done with 1CW, it is not practical, it takes long, and it's unpleasant.
Then let's try efficiently farming something, say we want to clear CN, kill draco, and average a clear time of 30-35 minutes for all that? The fastest kill i had was 4CW/GWF, but have had very efficent clears with a TR, or a DC or two, even a GF can do decently, though GF hurts team DPS significantly. That said most compositions could probably kill in around 5 minutes with gear and skills.
Now, ask yourself, would you WANT to do that fight with less than 2CW? I know pandapaul posted a vid here where it was 1CW/3GWF/DC, but they were all probably 16K+ with perfect enchants, so with that much AOE DPS, it doesn't matter that much.
Once i did draco with 1CW/2TR/GWF/DC, and while we got it done, i wouldn't call that efficient, especially on the clear.
So, it basically requires 2CWs (if the CWs and team are very good) and lends itself to 3 CWs for reliability. Most PuGs I've seen don't have the coordination to do it 2CW, so it basically necessitates 3.
Today i had a 3CW/DC party, and I wanted to play my GF in that group, i wanted to change class for fun, then i thought about it and i said, well, i could switch to GF, the run would take longer, the fight would be harder, and my teammates have to work harder. I thought about TR and thought the same thing, so I went CW, the run was fast, the kill was fast, and we were in and out in about 35 minutes.
So why? throw 30 adds in a fight and expect teams to not overstack AOE CC and DPS? it is a response to the environment. No one needs to stack CW and GWF in MC, because there are big target mobs and big target bosses and single target DPS was useful there.
So, make more dungeons like MC and we will bring less CWs, but make more fights like the dracolich, and we will bring more. It is a player response to the enviornment.
I would bring another class to CN other than CW, but if I switched I would hurt my team. I don't want to hurt my team.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Balance.... they way it should be balanced would be the exact ,, purpose for each class but as i see the game mechanics now, that is just not going to happen.
so to be honest TRs getting some sorta incentive, yeah I would like to see it, but since I missed the whole bandwagon of Trs being opera , Im stuck seeing it as ,, until the Devs actually get on here and have indepth play time in dungeons and pvp for that matter, aint a **** bit of this gonna do any good to bother saying it, come to think of it why the hell am i saying anything , i just wasted my time! ,,, <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>!
~Vladimar Zul - Fury build SW ~
~Takadump onzcrapper - Iron vangaurd GF~
my boss rotation includes LB, DF ( constantly), WR every time its lit Lurkers and stealth as available. and no DPSer pulls a boss off me unless they initiate a kite before I attack, then im chasing and cant do much DPS ...
and I am an executioner build.
When did efficiently farming the same content over and over start to become fun? I have a lot more fun just taking guildies on whatever they want to play on, and running with that. I couldn't care less if I see the top content in this game, it's just more of the same.
The dungeons in this game are a joke. I like the combat system which is the only reason I still play, but there is no reason I can see to farm anything in this game. This is a game where once you have played through T1 on whatever classes you want to play it on, it's game over. The price to pay to see the other content is just not worth it.