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GWF Building - Sentinel Options or Going Destroyer?
nwnghost
Member, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
Hi,
I started off mostly following kolatmaster's Leery Jenkins build ( http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?426811-Sentinel-GWF-Build-PvE-Focus-(PvP-viable)-LEEROY-JENKINS(!!!) )
but after playing my GWF a bit I'm starting to branch out my thinking a bit.
Note that my main focus will be PvE - to be honest I don't really care if I get killed all the time in PvP.
I am currently level 29 with these stats and build:
17/16/15 Mains
10/10/10 Secondary
http://nwcalc.com/gwf?b=imz:4bow0:5m9s,1x03p36:60000:60000:60000&h=0
This is what I am thinking of getting for level 60 at present (Sentinel):
http://nwcalc.com/gwf?b=huj:462m8:5m9s,1x03p36:b0000:b0000:bu551&h=0
I am not sure whether Scale Agility is worth the 5 point investment though or whether those 5 points would be better off in Powerful Challenge, which I'm not sure I will even get to use (considering my current playstyle - but then again I don't even have Mark yet!)
The alternative was going along the Destroyer line:
http://nwcalc.com/gwf?b=huj:462m8:5m9s,1x03p36:b0000:b50z1:b0000&h=0
Where again, I currently don't know whether Focussed Destroyed or Battle Awareness is the better choice. I was tempted to go Battle Awareness and I haven't really invested in the Destroyer Passive at present and was considering staying with Bravery and Weapon Master (and maybe eventually Steely Defense)
Also, In terms of Staying Power, Deep Gash and Disciple of War, I was a bit torn. I was reading an analysis thread about Deep Gash and that in a T2 dungeon run it usually contributes only about 4% of total damage dealt by the player. Disciple of War, a dev was recently saying that it only counts your base Recovery, not bonuses from Augments and buffs. Besides, I would be near the cap with a high STR/CON build anyway? I'm not sure how Staying Power works exactly though. Some were saying that it basically gives you more Armor Penetration, which I suppose I might as well use Disciple of War then if I'm capped or go for Deep Gash.
Of the Sentinel vs Destroyer Build, which one do you feel would have more potential? Note that I don't plan on spending real cash, so I likely won't even end up with a single weapon/armor enchantment or Ioun Stone. I got plenty of higher level rune enchantments though...
I started off mostly following kolatmaster's Leery Jenkins build ( http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?426811-Sentinel-GWF-Build-PvE-Focus-(PvP-viable)-LEEROY-JENKINS(!!!) )
but after playing my GWF a bit I'm starting to branch out my thinking a bit.
Note that my main focus will be PvE - to be honest I don't really care if I get killed all the time in PvP.
I am currently level 29 with these stats and build:
17/16/15 Mains
10/10/10 Secondary
http://nwcalc.com/gwf?b=imz:4bow0:5m9s,1x03p36:60000:60000:60000&h=0
This is what I am thinking of getting for level 60 at present (Sentinel):
http://nwcalc.com/gwf?b=huj:462m8:5m9s,1x03p36:b0000:b0000:bu551&h=0
I am not sure whether Scale Agility is worth the 5 point investment though or whether those 5 points would be better off in Powerful Challenge, which I'm not sure I will even get to use (considering my current playstyle - but then again I don't even have Mark yet!)
The alternative was going along the Destroyer line:
http://nwcalc.com/gwf?b=huj:462m8:5m9s,1x03p36:b0000:b50z1:b0000&h=0
Where again, I currently don't know whether Focussed Destroyed or Battle Awareness is the better choice. I was tempted to go Battle Awareness and I haven't really invested in the Destroyer Passive at present and was considering staying with Bravery and Weapon Master (and maybe eventually Steely Defense)
Also, In terms of Staying Power, Deep Gash and Disciple of War, I was a bit torn. I was reading an analysis thread about Deep Gash and that in a T2 dungeon run it usually contributes only about 4% of total damage dealt by the player. Disciple of War, a dev was recently saying that it only counts your base Recovery, not bonuses from Augments and buffs. Besides, I would be near the cap with a high STR/CON build anyway? I'm not sure how Staying Power works exactly though. Some were saying that it basically gives you more Armor Penetration, which I suppose I might as well use Disciple of War then if I'm capped or go for Deep Gash.
Of the Sentinel vs Destroyer Build, which one do you feel would have more potential? Note that I don't plan on spending real cash, so I likely won't even end up with a single weapon/armor enchantment or Ioun Stone. I got plenty of higher level rune enchantments though...
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Now that the rogue is getting nerfed, I'm looking for an alternative class, just for solo PvE play.
But, like you, I have absolutely no intentions of spending real cash on it (especially as I think the GWF is next in line for the nerfbat!). So I'll be using whatever gear I can buy off the AH and a pitiful white cleric companion.
So I'm very curious to see if a GWF is viable at higher levels if you don't spend real cash on it.
Disciple of War is good, since you want to load your gear up with recovery. At 3k recovery, you get around 12% armor pen. This is easily finished up with 22 Con, allowing you to invest in Dex or Str for more damage.
I have 4,391 power without a single Radiant enchantment, meaning Deep Gash does 658.65 damage over 5 seconds(131.73 damage per second).
Staying Power isn't bad, but you have to remember how often you're using Encounters. Even with 3k Recovery, you'll still have most Encounters on a 10s cooldown.
Would you say that in that case for Destroyer, I would be best off with Deep Gash then?
That thread here on Deep Gash said that the counter is reset (not stacked) on each crit, so it usually runs for 1 tick only:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?249942-GWF-deep-gash/page2
If I were to go for Destroyer, would you pick Student of the Sword or Scale Agility?
About Focussed Destroyer vs Battle Awareness do you have experience using either and a suggestion for me?
Do you feel the Destroyer build would be superior to the Sentinel build in terms or PvE?
The way Destroyer works is by letting you spam Slam and Unstoppable as long as there is multiple targets around. Your worth is in being resistant to most CC and weakening mobs for your TR to gib. The problem with this is you're pretty useless against low amounts of targets, providing very little damage on them. At that point, you're basically just there to put the Student of the Sword debuff on enemies.
Sentinel, on the other hand, can give a nice bonus to damage through use of Steely Defense and Sentinel's Aegis. It's a good balance of damage and survivability.
Deep Gash may not stack, but the debuff time will reset every time you crit. This means you can an additional 100+ damage per second. This becomes very good when burning down high health targets.
Focused Destroyer just means that you can get the buff from hitting single targets, instead of absolutely needing mobs to hit. You'll only really pick up Battle Awareness for the buff to Slam. I forget the exact duration, but it's too bad the power buff doesn't last as long as Slam does.
My problem with deciding between the two trees is that I really like the Destroyer Ultimate and Master at Arms for the Sentinel Tree (though the Sentinel Tree Ultimate seems rather meh to me)
From your experience, which of the 2 trees below would be best for PvE?
Destroyer reworked:
http://nwcalc.com/gwf?b=imz:4bp38:5m9s,1x03p36:b0000:bu0z1:b0000&h=0
Sentinel:
http://nwcalc.com/gwf?b=imz:4bp38:5m9s,1x03p36:b0000:bu0z1:b0000&h=0
In terms of end game PvE, which Powers are worthwhile getting?
At Will, I think I'll end up with Sure Strike + Weapon Master's Strike
Features, I will pick Weapon Mastery + Destroyer (if Destroyer Tree) or + Bravery (if Sentinel Tree)
Dailies, Slam and Savage Advance (or Avalanche of Steel)
Encounters is the tough one. I'm thinking Roar, Indomitable Battle Strike and one of Punishing Charge, Takedown or Restoring Strike
1) Threat from abilities
2) More survivalability.
Problem is #1 is moot when the extra damage you get from Destroyer tree usually gives you around the same if not more threat than the Sentinel feats, simply by doing more damage.
And #2 can be nice but it can also be overkill. A Destroyer GWF with a decent amount of Lifesteal can survive pretty well already. Trading away damage for more survivalbility might be overkill because in most situations, more defense is overkill and you're not helping your group out more. However more damage from Destroyer is never overkill, it always helps out the group.
Also just wanted to comment on the user saying Destroyer lacks when there aren't a large number of enemies. First of all, going Sentinel is not gonna fix that problem. You're trading away damage to be a tankier spec that does less damage period, so I don't see the point in bringing that up. Secondly, while it's true Destroyer shines when there are high number of mobs, it's also the best single/low target spec of the 3 trees, so again it's moot. Instigator is even worse at single target damage and Sentinel is just worse at damage period, so again, kinda a moot point.
LOL, I didnt want to sound like a broken record, because I already put my 2cents a few times before on the same subject. You summed it up pretty well.
1) Destroyer threat is not equal, but better than Sentinel.
2) Destroyer with 10% Lifesteal has more survivability than Sentinel without Lifesteal, while still doing more dps.
3) Destroyer is the best tree for Single target, without lacking in AoE.
If and when there is better threat mechanics in the Sentinel tree, and I mean alot better, then I would consider it once again by gearing a Sent in full offensive gear.
What do you think about the suggested Powers/Feats setup?
No. What I meant is if you want to tank with a Destroyer and have high survivability, Lifesteal helps alot. 10% is roughtly 1500.
A Sentinel with Lifesteal would of course have more survivability, but you would be sacrificing even more dps leading to less threat which is already a problem with the tree.
I would remove the 5 points in Unstoppable Recovery, and either put it in Disciple of War to free up slots/stats in favor of Power, or go for Powerful Challenge.
Would I not be close or at the ArPen cap with 23 CON and 1 point in CON focus and the rest of the setup, so that I wouldn't need a lot of ArPen on items though?
I noticed ArPen from CON focus doesn't show on the character sheet but factors when hitting dummies.
It is not efficient, unless you are running a Sentinel+HP+Tenebrous PvP Spec. Dex, IMO, is a better investment. Especially since it will be very difficult to increase your crit past the soft cap. Dex is a flat % increase to Crit Chance no matter how many points you have in Critical Strike, not to mention that it also gives you AoE mitigation and Deflection.
I think you need to work backwards. Start by choosing what 4pc set you will use and if it has any ArP. Then main/offhand and any other piece you definitely want to use. Feat into Disciple of War, which at 3k Recovery (which is where you would want to be) will yield 750 ArP. After all that, see how short you are from the 24% ArP and adjust your CON accordingly. You may not need to put any points in CON. Any remaining points should go in STR/DEX.
I've also gone backwards a bit and thought about the Destroyer Tree some more. If I take Great Weapon Focus whichever Tree I go, wouldn't going Sentinel for the rest actually work out to be very close in the overall DPS?
My reasoning would be that Grudge Style in particular (together with Student of the Sword) would add a fair bit of DPS from crits? That and potentially Powerful Challenge (though I'm not sure whether the Powers that grant Marking are worth it)
On the Destroyer Tree, the other DPS feats are Deep Gash and Focussed Destroyer (not counting Disciple of War because I won't be able to spare more than 2 points there)
While Destroyer would give more Deterination I suppose, would that outweigh the benefit of very high defense ratings from Sentinel?
24% for bosses.
lol, we're turning this thread into a two-way conversation that could drag indefinitely.
No you wouldnt be close to Destroyer dps with just Great Weapon Focus. Every feat in the Destroyer tree is a direct or indirect dps boost, even the recovery reduction feats are to be considered dps boost.
Student of the Sword is a must for ANY spec. So even as a Destroyer you are taking. Grudge Style is extremely situational since 90% of the time you're using WMS. Even then, slotting Destroyer passive + having Focused Destroyer feat still ends up being better.
If you intend to tank on a Destroyer, you will be using Daring Shout alot, not only is it a great Determination boost and great mitigation, but will mark your target. The marks do make a difference. You will have 2-8seconds of 15% damage boost per marked target. If all the marks are falling quickly, then it is even better, since it is an indication that you have aggro on everything. Another advantage is when running with a GF, who constantly mark their targets, giving you that extra 15% alot of the time.
After all this back and forth you boiled it down to just extra Determination vs Defense? lol If that was the case, then go Sentinel.
All I can say is to quote the well known gaming maxim: you do zero dps if you're dead.
Yea, unfortunately it doesn't apply to GWFs no matter what spec they are in.
http://nwcalc.com/gwf?b=ip6:4zj7b:b1hb,13clu1i:60000:60000:boub1&h=0
I put ONE point into intimidation so it gives me a chance to crit (Apply stacks of deep gash and Student of the Sword. I enjoy using Daring Shout)
FYI Daring Shout already procs Steel Blitz on its own.
Correct me if I'm wrong in either case.
If you go destroyer, I would say take disciple of war over staying power... It really is a value feat just like Steely Defense. Getting more for your money in a stat investment is the way to go IMO.
If you're going PVE, have you not considered a Instigator build?
At the moment, I'm still undecided but I'm tending towards Destroyer, because Grudge Style is actually not that great and I prefer Roar over Intimidation's Daring Shout (due to the interrupt). Maybe I am not using Daring Shout properly though...
This is how I've skilled so far:
http://nwcalc.com/gwf?b=inv:4d3o4:ac5c,1x03p36:90000:b0000:b0000&h=0
1 Feat unassigned
22 21 17 12 12 12 on stats
I notice a lot of people going for Steel Blitz but I don't seem to see the use in it. 1 extra attack that essentially roots you and only that 1 attack benefits from +24% damage?
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?358391-Con-(GWF)-and-Dex-(GF)-are-now-addative-to-Armor-Penetration
Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 23, between 0 and 1126 for 12.8% to 24%
My CON at the end will be 23. I also have 1 in CON focus making it 5% more effective. So really I will only need roughly 1000 ArP from gear to hit 24% without further ArP boosting feats. Hence any ArP boosting feats are pretty much completely useless to me given that T2 gear tends to give at least 1k ArP from somewhere.
Or did I misunderstand something?
Only the PvP set gear has some ArP, around 500. The point is to use as little as you can from CON so you can stack STR and DEX. The crit% chance + deflect + AoE mitigation you get from DEX is better than the ArP you get from CON, especially that you will definitely be hitting the critical rating soft cap with any T2 gear setup.
Honestly you are spending way too much time planing your final spec. Your first and only focus right now shouldn't be where to spend your points, but rather getting to 60. I guarantee you, despite of all the answers you will get here and your best attempt to spend your points the "right" way, you WILL respec at least once if not 5 more times when you hit 60.
Get to 60 with whatever spec and experiment with as many Powers as you can then. Then respec.
Or just make more than one GWF in different specs. It really doesn't take long to level in this game. I'm on my 3rd one.
I've bought rings/amulets/belts with 100-154 lifesteal each, but none of the weapons/armor sets give lifesteal unless its a tank set which doesn't give you any power/crit.
So that leaves me with roughly 540 odd lifesteal in total with gear. Does the rest have to come from Dark Enchantments?
Won't I need like 5 level 10 Darks for that?
If you get necromancer rings of the undeath and slot all the deffence slots you get with them with RAnk 7 of higher darks thats 925 Life steal get a greater lifedrinker enchantment that enchantment also pulls off alot of threat you can also just allocate the last of the life steal you need with Stone pet if were talking PvE thats shuld get you the 1500 easy also using 2 pieces of titan gear will get you a nice amount of life steal also even if its tank stats the necromancer rings and stone can make up for the lack of offensive stats i believe.
I assume you don't have a Cat or Ion Stone. I am only using rank6/7s Dark. Also look for rings with Defensive slots. With my Ion stone, I have over 1500 LS.
Amulet I got an ancient necromancer and rings I got 2xAncient Berserker
I don't think I'll ever manage to afford a stone.
This is my final build at lvl60 btw
http://nwcalc.com/gwf?b=inv:4zks7:acvw,1x03p36:b0000:bois1:b0000&h=0
Get a stone before you spend AD on Ancient weapon, or avatar. In fact save all your AD for the stone. Nothing else you will buy would boost your effectiveness more than the stat companion.