Group tools in dire need of improvement

axer128 · June 2013

Reposting this here since the thread too often gets lost in the massive flood of the general forum, and this is pretty much the best forum for discussing community issues it seems.
Previous Threads (50+ replies)

Played all 3 beta weekends and now about a month of open beta, always grouped and yea the current grouping tools are the most broken part of an otherwise great game, they really need some attention. Sadly didn't see any improvement from beta 1 to 3 or open beta so hopefully they get some attention soon.

Major Issues:

1. Broken Instancing - Very frequently, we were not placed in the same instance as our party members. Even worse - upon attempting to switch to their instance - the # matching theirs most often does not appear in the list. So the only way for us to get together is often going through the list and finding a number that we all can get to, and doing so.. Then running back to wherever we were since it always teleport us to the nearest waypoint/zone-in/camp. Worse yet, with the new 2 minute cooldown on changing instances, we often can't even try, and instead have to jump around zones until we wind up together. (theres also a related bug where my screen always says my timer is 32 mins - tho it's visual only bug)

Further details: It seems like if we all enter a new area together, either with the instance selector option off, or just picking the default, as long as we enter within ~30 seconds of each other, it works ok and we enter the same new instance.. But any other scenario, it just fails and places us into a random instance, with seemingly no rhyme or reason to the # we get into.
EG: Any of the following results in us not being together:
- Crashed/Disconnected - log into a different instance (which happened very often for one party member, tho not others)
- Teleported to zone
- Entered some time later (greater then 30s after someone else)
- Invited after the fact (This should ideally give an option to instantly teleport to the party leaders instance, but does not)

Notably the wrong instances issue seems very slightly better since closed beta tho. We still end up in wrong instances frequently, but disconnects cause it less often.

So yea thats quite frustrating. But to make it worse:

2. Broken party bubble requirement: Most of the time, you cannot zone anywhere until you wait for your party members, even if they are in different instances. This is often not ideal.
Details:
Often, we are in protectors enclave, and want to go to a new zone/quest.. But we're all in different instances due to problem #1.. Yet maybe we just want to go quickly turn in some quests then return to the group going elsewhere. Or simply solo a very short quest while others are selling.. It's not possible without breaking the group.

Or if we do intend to group together and enter the same new instance, but want enter the same new area from different instances to save time - that should be allowed.

So while I do enjoy the aspect of forcing all players to be together for certain events (like zoning into boss fights, as ensures slower players can enjoy the end fight).. For these purposes, its a major flaw, not a useful feature.

While I think it should be left in, there needs to be some override option, at least while in public instances. EG: Party leader can right click himself and say "Allow solo zoning". This would allow the above scenarios. But not be available while the whole party is in a dungeon. (Tho those who may have gotten kicked out for whatever reason should always be able to re-enter, with the exception of perhaps some of the top lvl challenging content intended to be done in 1-go.)

3. Voice chat doesn't work on the "alt" mouse cursor screen or any other non-main combat screen.
Believe your aware of this and the other many issues with the built in voice chat like the multi-stacking party bar on the bottom if you enter multiple parties/voice rooms, or it just failing to work sometimes... Needs a lot of improvement, it should just work, all the time while in a party. Even on loadscreens.

4. Critical: Tools for forming a group, are completely useless
So the game does seemingly have an LFM (Looking for more) type system built in, but it's 100% un-usable in it's current form for a few reasons:

Limited to X groups, and every single group (and even solo players in most cases) is automatically set to advertising and open party, thus it very quickly fills and most groups never show up.
EG: I asked my party members to try to click my party when we need to reform (as we often do, due to bugs).. They can never find it, as it simply doesn't show up due to the limit.
Automatically set to advertised, open, public grouping is not ideal. Just playing with friend sand having some random stranger just join out of the blue screaming obscenities at you..
Or worse, some innocent player just testing the group tools seeing how they work joins.. Who you then kick - which causes that poor bloke to be kicked from the quest he has been working on for 50 min. Yea, should default to off.
Very limited options. Think I saw an option to let only my friends see me online... But no option to only let friends see my lfm.. Or only see friends LFMs.
Very bugged: The various options that are there, don't seem to work.
I tried the require requests with open group option, but people still got into my group without any requests. In addition, after changing that - I could not manually invite anyone either. No error, no message came up, just nothing happened upon invites, had to relog to clear.
Also tried putting a message in to list the dungeon I was setting up a group for.. But yea that never worked. One bug being it only allows 1 word, no spaces or non alphanumeric characters.. And another being it just never shows up for anyone anyways.

5. Group leaders have way too much power, and even worse - are (edit: Brokenly, see later post explaining how) assigned when using the dungeon finder.. This is a major annoyance to me.. As I often have 1-3 friends, but you are required to have 5 players for the finder. So I might have just 1 friend on, and manually invite 2 others, so now we have 4 but no tank. So we queue up to hopefully find one, and after I spent an 20+ mins of aggrevatingly sending manual tells due to broken group system, I suddenly find the group I put in all the work to form, has a new leader in the dungeon.

We proceed, then at the end said new leader kicks everyone from the group right before the final boss dies, taking all the loot for himself.

6. Queue system has severe bugs and issues that make us hate using it, but we are given literally zero alternative for epic dungeons and pvp.
List of issues in queues:

Group leader is ALWAYS assigned to a solo queue, and never given to preformed parties that are far more deserving.
Instances are locked down after ~ 2 minutes, meaning if anyone has to leave for any reason, they are gone for good and cannot be replaced. With some of the T2s epics taking upwards of 2-3 hours, this is unacceptable.
The insane and incredible power to kick players INSTANTLY is given to the leader. In non queues you actually get 60 seconds to stay in, the fact its 5 seconds in queues is terrible and makes no sense. Plus it should only allow a vote kick at best, not an instant.
If you accidently right click and leave - say trying to assign the lead or something - you are ejected and can never return. Some big red text warning when you do that should be injected.
Loot rules cannot be set and default to a fairly annoying system in dungeons with a lot of loot no one wants (random greens are completely worthless to people who frequently run T2s and have made plenty of diamonds/gold from selling our various pulls)
Bosses only drop 1 item (and a shard/seals), and there list of items is insanely massive, resulting in a very frustrating experience unless you run during delves. The difference in delves and regular runs is incredibly massive, and doesn't need to be. 2-3 drops and more specifically assigned loot to other bosses to create less diluted tables would be much more reasonable.

... So yea, not much fun. Two required fixes:
1. If you queue with 3 or more players, and have the star, you should keep that star. 2 players and 3 solo queueing, same deal keep it. 2 vs 2, it should be random, however there should also be an option to opt-in to be a leader.. With it defaulted off, as some just want to play a dungeon with a friend, but not necessarily lead it. Same goes for solo queuers, in 5 solo players queued, the only eligible leader should be one who opts-in. Players who put in the time and effort to form a party, should not be punished for that effort.

2. Group leader should have the power to kick players in public instances, but not dungeons/private ones. In the case of those, it should allow a group vote.

Take a look at Dungeons and Dragons online for a very high quality LFM and built in voice chat system.. If you can replicate it's to some degree, Neverwinter would be a lot more awesome.

Group tools are critical to building a strong community, so this really needs a lot of attention. I've seen great MMOs like TERA flounder and do way worse then they could of, simply because they have utterly garbage group tools (EG the game has a lfm system, that 99% of the playerbase don't know how to use as its so cumbersome, and not unlike neverwinters.. vs DDO, where the LFM system is king and for the vast majority of players, the #1 way they group, if not the only way... Which creates a very strong pick-up-group community where anyone can jump in a play without having to worry about having the time to form/join a guild to get anywhere, and over time can easily be sure the group they are joining will be a fun one - as they can at the bare minimum identify the leader, and his guild before joining (if not the entire group makeup if they just need 1 more).

Post open beta update:
It's as I feared really.. No good way to form a group outside of auto-queuing is resulting in a really terrible community.

Last 6 dungeons/skirmishes I queued for - not a single person typed or spoke a single word (cept for the 1 friend I was running them with sometimes). Almost feels like I'm playing with bots the devs just set up to fool me into thinking i'm playing an mmo. They have no emotion, no human feelings, no desire to interact, and importantly, no remorse as they constantly need on every item, regardless of what class it is for.

Plus these bot-players, always get the crown (leader) even when I form part of the party manually, preventing any action on my part to try to take control and encourage more sociable play.

Really don't get it either, a lot of them have direwolves/panthers, thus they obviously paid 60-200 dollars on an mmo, yet they make no attempt to make friends or even communicate with others. It's quite strange to me.

I think the sad state of the games grouping tools encourages this kind of behavior tho. Really need some attention.

1 Month update:
99% of players: Voice disabled, never type in party chat, will kick for petty reasons, demand all players use exploits to get loot faster..

the other 1%? Awesome people I've formed friendships with that make me love the game more. I only wish I had the tools that let me find more of these people. I believe they are out there, I just can't find them without huge unnecessary struggle atm with the tools presented to me now.

The game has to care before the players will start to care. Please start to care soon NW devs.

jacki3chan1 · June 2013

Read the new devs post, with all their fixs and changes

axer128 · June 2013

jacki3chan1 wrote: »

Read the new devs post, with all their fixs and changes

I have, it has zero fixes for the lfg tool. A couple for the queue system, which is good.

and this from other thread:
PM'd the thread to the community manage (sominator)

First reply seemed like he didn't review the entire thread, hes probably very busy, no big deal.

2nd reply i think he did.. Just replied thanks for the feedback.

So yea, hopefully that means he forwarded it for the devs to review, and the devs have reviewed the thread..

Thanks for the reply sominator. Hope to see progress on the lfg tool soon.

kabeeker · June 2013

I definitely agree. The group tool need a great deal of improvement.

axer128 · June 2013

More bugs:
If you queue for a new dungeon, after completing your current one - with the exact same group..

The queue system will often decide it's allowed to randomly kick any member and replace them, like thats acceptable or something.

Horrible, and forces us to reform every dungeon. (reforming is a mostly functional workaround)

And worse - even pvp match too.

Another bug:
If you all relog (say to get delves quest working). and all relog at the same time - The queue system detects everyones offline and decides that instances is available for play - thus randomly kicks players and replaces them...

Yup, we literally had a full preform, relog a few mins in - and bam, someone's gone and a new guy (whos completely rude, unqualified and doesn't belong there) has his place. Also it gives them the lead of our group.

In short:
EVERYONE HATES THE QUEUE SYSTEM - all caps.
Please let us group another way.

osadamask · June 2013

The queue system does seem a bit better now, still far from perfect. I am noticing it attempts to refill vacancies as you go into the dungeon. However, it gives no message saying its working on it. So what happened to me is my CW left, then the cleric left. then everyone but me left. THEN it started filling in the same class types that left. But after the GF position was filled, that GF left the party and it never refilled his position.

axer128 · June 2013

osadamask wrote: »

The queue system does seem a bit better now, still far from perfect. I am noticing it attempts to refill vacancies as you go into the dungeon. However, it gives no message saying its working on it. So what happened to me is my CW left, then the cleric left. then everyone but me left. THEN it started filling in the same class types that left. But after the GF position was filled, that GF left the party and it never refilled his position.

Seems no better to me.

We lost our only cleric in CN, the system replaced him with a GWF. We kindly asked if the GWF could heal us through there.. Seemed he could not.

So yea, seems as broken as ever.

sominator · June 2013

Hey there,

We're taking a look at these issues. Thanks for the feedback!

naughtypain · June 2013

I completely agree with alot of the things being said here. I have on more then one occasion filled a group taking atleast 30 mins to find a decent tank only for the lead to be given to someone else who kicks me at the end so that they get the ancient loot. The voice system is in need of dire repair due to noone uses it because of the bug. I think having in game voice is extremely useful but when its so broken that noone uses it, it cannot be that hard to fix. This game has made lots of money and still has some of the same bugs it had during closed beta first weekend. I hope that they take alot of this into consideration for fixing the game before everyone gets tired of it and quits.

axer128 · June 2013

Found our what's probably one of the most major issues destroying the community that seems like such a minor thing and easy fix:

The ingame voice chat causes stacking team windows over and over every time you enter a new dungeon (or queue rather, but since thats ENFORCED at endgame, its quite frequent).

Leaving it on will eventually cause it so players cannot see any party chat at all.

As a work around, it seems many if not most players disable voice chat..

So yea we end up with player who either cant communicate with text, or complete ignore you on voice since they cant hear you (and there is no indicator if a player has it disabled which is also a huge issue).

So yea please fix this. Stacking team windows cant be that hard to fix, and would go a long ways towards building a stronger community.

Adding an indicator if someone has to disabled (like DDO perhaps - eg: The speaker icon by there name doesn't show or has an X on it if its off) would be nice too, but lower priority.

Just patch the stacking windows and forcibly re enable everyones ingame voice chat - they wont disable it again if the bug is fixed.

hyphenjay · June 2013

grouping tool definitely needs rework, how do you expect the game to thrive when one of the fundamental basics is broken as hell??

vhlader · June 2013

Improvements to group tools would be nice. For example, the option to bypass the queue system for epic content (like you can with regular content - by walking into the dungeon instance) would significantly improve the gameplay experience for some players. This can be accomplished very simply: add the option to enter on epic when walking into a dungeon entrance (and add entrances for dungeons that currently lack them, like castle never).

Once such a mechanism is in place, additional improvements to the Find Party tab can be made. The queue system is good for some players, but more options help make the game better for everyone.

kyllroy2 · June 2013

Thx Axer for keeping the process going.

There are people claiming that they never queue up any more due to bad surprises, namely trolls endlessly unhappy with whatever combination of heroes that randomly drop. I would like to see a cool down timer that allows a party to return to the queue if someone decides to leave before the beginning of hostilities or an over-padding of players available so that the picky can leave or be booted and still allow a continuation without delay.

ganjaman1 · June 2013

Don't you use TS or Vent ? If so just invite your party members to your vent / ts , if not just do guild runs . I rarely hear people that use the ingame VoiP .

axer128 · June 2013

ganjaman1 wrote: »

Don't you use TS or Vent ? If so just invite your party members to your vent / ts , if not just do guild runs . I rarely hear people that use the ingame VoiP .

oh yes because all players in the game are always on our mumble server.

The purpose of the ingame voice chat is to get to know people you pick-up group with more quickly, be able to communicate important directions more quickly, and mostly importantly form bonds and create friendships at a faster rate.

Such things are not nearly as smooth or fun when you have to tell someone who may have no idea how to install applications at all, to download, install and configure mumble. A process that for some may only take 2-3 minutes, but others can take upwards of 30 minutes. Having built in eliminates this huge downtime that process creates.

And yea players cant do guild runs if they cant meet the right players to form/join a guild. Having strong group tools vastly improves that process.

The reason players rarely use it is PURELY because it is very buggy.

Try playing DDO, 99% of players ALWAYS have it enable and use it - the 1% that don't quickly learn that they should. Around 70% will speak to you on the mic too, and most are very friendly. The reason isn't because DDO has more outgoing/friendly players, it's because its group tools and built in voice chat is just plain better.

kyllroy2 · June 2013

I joined in a dungeon fight today and had a really good team. Our healer kept the group healthy in all but the worst of it.
Despite the way it was going, one member decided to bail at around the 3/4 marker. The remaining team were down in firepower but never let up. At one point I was worried when the healer crashed a couple of times and sent the crew to the last campfire. Laugh a little ok...
At this point we started acting as a team, focusing on one large enemy at a time and moving together. The loser who quit probably soiled his diaper, but the stouthearted that stayed on were IMO great to play with and I'll be looking for more of these as time goes by. I learned a bunch from the experience. Number one is the team and the leader. Give the person making the most sense the leadership role and hopefully one of the supporting team from the backfield that can see more of the picture and make the calls.

If people aren't talking, or are massively whining, leave at the beginning. Please don't wait until you have cost the group a ton of time and effort to poo poo out.

Having all the good tools doesn't replace good teammates.

kattefjaes · June 2013

axer128 wrote: »

The purpose of the ingame voice chat is to get to know people you pick-up group with more quickly, be able to communicate important directions more quickly, and mostly importantly form bonds and create friendships at a faster rate.

However, no-one in their right mind uses VoIP with strangers. When you've had a whiney tween munching Doritos into a permanently open mic for a few minutes, right in your ear, you start to consider genocide a valid option.

People are loud, stupid and disgusting. Text is a barrier contraceptive for MMOs. The fights are simple enough that you can do a half arsed job with a few works of instruction before they start, and even a new player will be fine, if they don't stand in the red stuff.

axer128 · July 2013

kattefjaes wrote: »

However, no-one in their right mind uses VoIP with strangers. When you've had a whiney tween munching Doritos into a permanently open mic for a few minutes, right in your ear, you start to consider genocide a valid option.

People are loud, stupid and disgusting. Text is a barrier contraceptive for MMOs. The fights are simple enough that you can do a half arsed job with a few works of instruction before they start, and even a new player will be fine, if they don't stand in the red stuff.

This is blatantly false and you have a poor view of the human race. Plus the endgame dungeons (t2s) are indeed difficult enough to warrant good voice communication.

You can easily find the truth if you play DDO. 95% of players that use voice chat are very smart, friendly and appreciate new players. And the vast majority of players worth grouping with do use it, and 100% of players have it enable as it causes no bugs and its easy to mute people n a person to person basis.

The tools create the community. The horrible people automatically get filtered out when a good system is in place.
When everything is random and encourages ninja looting - the community fills with bad people.

DDO does not simply have better and nicer players, it simply has tools that allow those players to get to the forefront, and filter the others.

And dumb people also don't change options, this game defaults to push to talk last I checked, so no open mic dorito eater is possible unless they are actually a smart person blatantly trolling you.

I've spoken to thousands of strangers over voice chat in mmos. 100% of them are better people then those who don't use it. 95% are good natured people worth playing with.

axer128 · July 2013

More queue issue fun:
Gauntlgrym:
Queue for pvp with 2 full guild groups:
1 gets a pop, other does not
One that does gets spawn camped before they can even react by another guild lucky enough to get 2-3 groups in the one match (gauntlgrym so fun and well designed......)
Other group (mine) - waiting in queue for 30 mins, never get a match. Heard others in zone chat did. Seems the queue system doesnt care how long you wait or what guild your in, or much of anything. Just entirely random, and entirely fail since I've never gotten to pvp the last 3 gauntlgryms i've tried.

Then the dungeons - more stpid nonsense queue system only. Makes ZERO sense since they have physical entrances. WHY CAN WE NOT JUST GO IN?!?!?!?!??!

So yea, we wait in queue 10 mins to do one run. Next run we have 10min left, we wait in queu (in a full 5man party...) and after 10min nothing pops and it shuts us down.

Thanks cryptic. Thanks for continuing to use this horrible queue system for all content. Makes everything so fun. And by fun and i mean *!@)#!*)!*@#@*!#!).

antovaras · July 2013

Fully support any improvements to the, rather aggravating, team finder and queue system. Weird that Cryptic's first MMO had, seemingly, much better teaming system.

cyberdox · July 2013

what i find the worse is when there is a party of 5 in GG, and the game decides to kick the good TR in our party and replace them with some shty GWF that doesn't do what we say and it turns a 7min run into something that takes 15mins+ or all of us just ditching and having to reform. (not always the TR but it tends to be, and not always replaced with a GWF, but tends to be ><")(and nothing against GWF, but we get stuck with the ones that are trying to go from nothing to T2 GG stuff)

axer128 · July 2013

cyberdox wrote: »

what i find the worse is when there is a party of 5 in GG, and the game decides to kick the good TR in our party and replace them with some shty GWF that doesn't do what we say and it turns a 7min run into something that takes 15mins+ or all of us just ditching and having to reform. (not always the TR but it tends to be, and not always replaced with a GWF, but tends to be ><")(and nothing against GWF, but we get stuck with the ones that are trying to go from nothing to T2 GG stuff)

The worst is the fact you HAVE TO use that horrible queue system, even in a full 5man pre form. If you could simply click on the ALREADY IMPLEMENTED entrances and go in with your group as you should be able to, it would eliminate hundreds of issues.

And yea c'mon guys, I know these major issues affect EVERYONE. So please reply with a quick yes i agree or your experiences as this thread needs more attention.

I mean everyones met at least one negative person in our community or had one bad queue experience. And the reason isn't because only negative people player neverwinter.. It's that tool they give literally encourage us to hate each other.

I mean even the recent changes to the loot system only made the community hate each other even more:
Now - Everyone still needs on every item. Only now select classes get to screw over other players of other classes because there items are far more valuable.. And the loot system distribution is NOT even. (EG: some bosses only drop GF/GWF items, some only clr/cw.. etc - so other classes coming on those dungeons automatically get screwed over by other puggers).

It's a system that forces players to hate each other. Because if there are say 2 TRs, both that already have an item that drops - neither trusts each other, thus they need - the other 3 in the group? SCREWED OVER BY THE SYSTEM.

-- and 90 times outa 100 people aren't horrible people. If the rogues had the choice to say "Need so other rogue doesn't screw me over, but let others roll too cuz I already have the item" - the vast majority would select that choice. The system is creating the mist trust and lack of respect, not the players.

Previously, at the very least, everyone had a 1 in 5 chance at getting an item, and no one class could screw another over. Sure the Rogue could need on the CW item, but at the very least the CW still had his chance.

And given TR items are always far more valuable since that class seems to be more popular - It was far more fair and more even for each class to advance. Because yea sure likewise the TR items cost more for the TRs to buy on the AH - but all the other upgrades are far more important far more expensive, and even across all characters, so theres no reason they should be unfairly rewarded (EG: Perfect enchantments, rank7+ enchants, ioun stones - all cost eveyrone the same).

The new system screw over the nicest kind of players - the ones who care about others enough to greed on items they intend to sell.

Horrible.

Not gonna be able to stay with this game much longer if the devs continue to ignore this NUMBER ONE PRIORITY issue.

Bad community + good game with 2 million players = High turnover = unstable community = uncertain future. vs:
Good community + good game + tons of players = PW/Cryptic is rich forever.

Make the right choice devs.

kyllroy2 · August 2013

It's that tool they give literally encourage us to hate each other.

And its working.....People not spamming political or racist are spamming items for sale and the chat... if you can call it that anymore, is near impossible. If it wasn't for guild chat, there wouldn't be any.
Grouping tools aren't the only revision that is needed. As much as I hate vocal moderators, a hefty hand of "pause and rethink what you just spewed" is needed... no warning either... just boom- mute for 24 hours.

A decent conversation and a realistic button to enter your assembled and qualified group should be enough to get you in a dungeon or foundry mission.

Group tools in dire need of improvement

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