Slow Progression before release

crimsonconcepts · June 2013

Although some people may see this as a bad thing, I look at it as a way to prolong the life of the game.

I have heard from people that in a matter of hours they can max out the level of a character, if the game is nothing more then a way to get to max level as fast as possible, then why not just set the max level to 10 and call it good.

Progression and development is a large part of the life a game. Sure you can keep increasing the level max every so often to keep people going, but then why not just set it higher to start with and then just add new content as you go at the max level.

If you look at the life of games that are out there, there is one that comes to mind that has a LONG progression to max (if that is even possible) and yet I never hear anyone complaining that they aren't maxed out, and that is EVE Online.

Other games like EQ and WoW are all based on being max level and having the highest GearScore (another feature I would say to remove before release), and if you do not have those two things, then you might as well just go grind and not even think about actually playing story lines or doing anything else. This makes the levels from 1-59 feel like work, and you don't start to play until 60, and that is only if you have the good gear since all the elitist out there won't group with you if your score is too low.

Make certain levels points of achievement, rather then just another number. Make the leveling a logarithmic curve, every 10 levels it starts over on the curve. This way Achieving every 10 levels is a big step, and you feel like you work your way through the teens, then the 20s, then the 30s. Rather then just the same scale from 1 to 60 or whatever the max is at that time.

It would be nice to see something that is at level 60 to be someone who actually worked for it and you actually feel like 'That is awesome, I haven't seen anyone else at at that level', and if the mid levels were points of progression then it would be the same with the lower levels as well. 'Level 30, dang that's awesome, I can't wait to get to that level.' Rather then the current which is 'Level 58, go level up, you're useless right now' or even worse 'What's your GS, oh only 6k, sorry we need someone good' without knowing anything about the player or skill it is all just based on GearScore.

crimsonconcepts · June 2013

Bump for review

mhblis1 · June 2013

I suspect they over tuned the rate of growth so more people could reach the end and test more of the content. This would make sense but hopefully they will lower it so as you level you can enjoy more of the game without out leveling the skirmishes and dungeons.

crimsonconcepts · June 2013

I would hope that is the case, but I have not heard anything about that as a change.

kevinf08 · June 2013

I see the leveling grind as merely a tutorial and practice before you play the actual game.

I was pretty pleased that it didn't take long to get to max level in Neverwinter, I"ve never been a fan of grinding levels in mmos.

It's interesting you bring up Eve online though. I do sort of like how the skill system works there, only I find it takes way way to long to be able to use certain things in that game. It would be neat IMO to have a system like eve to be able to use different types of weapons and armor or something in a fantasy based MMO, where mastering the use of them would take a very long time but putting them in your hands would be very quick.

crimsonconcepts · June 2013

Part of what I do like about EvE is that the design of the game is that to enjoy it you don't have to be max level flying a Titan, you can spend a small amount of time and get decent at flying a Frigate and enjoy a lot of the game with PvP, or PvE.

Most MMOs based in fantasy worlds all play as though the max level is where you want to be. The idea of the way the Foundry works and scales is, in my opinion, how most dungeons should work. I do feel that there should be a level range for even the Foundry quests since a level 60 goblin just seems a bit unrealistic (coming from someone who has played D&D for over 20 years).

Most of our games were all within the 6-12 level range. We did play some that started at level 1, and have had others that we played up into the late teens. However max level was never what we played towards. It was the story, the adventure, the characters. With the idea that they don't want to set the max level at 20 (although I know that even in D&D 20 is not the max level) the game should have enough for players to do in the mid 15-30 range.

For Foundry stuff I would like to be able to set a level range for an encounter. If level 1-20 they get goblins, if 21-40 they get orcs, if 40-60, they get demons. Or even creatures that would only spawn if they were at a certain level. In the dungeon of Orcs, only spawn a ogre if the group is level 20+. I know they try and scale stuff, but that only takes you so far before it really is just adding hit points and damage. Might as well just have the players never leave the teens.

xhrit · June 2013

In the first neverwinter nights for PC you could max level a character in about 3 days of play, and yet the population was strong for about 6 years.

Endgame is user created content.

crimsonconcepts · June 2013

NWN is a bit different, I played that as well and made a few modules. Playing in an online MMORPG is different. In NWN the story was everything, it was great to play and I enjoyed every part of it. With Neverwinter my concern is that people will race to 60, ignore all content in the middle and try and get the highest gear score. Why not just give everyone a token that you can use at any time and put yourself at 60 with a GS of whatever you like. Then people wouldn't be annoyed by leveling, they could skip it all together (sarcasm intended).

I don't remember seeing any Dragons in the Foundry, nor any giants. Maybe I am missing something but how is a Orc encounter supposed to be end game? Or a werewolf encounter? From what I see of the monsters available, it is all based on the mid levels.

ganjaman1 · June 2013

xhrit wrote: »

In the first neverwinter nights for PC you could max level a character in about 3 days of play, and yet the population was strong for about 6 years.

Endgame is user created content.

IN this game in particular , everyone is running CN and T2 which is not user created content .

xhrit · June 2013

ganjaman1 wrote: »

IN this game in particular , everyone is running CN and T2 which is not user created content.

Such an arrogant notion to assume you know what everyone is doing.

The majority of a mmo's playerbase are not hardcore raiders and forum warriors, but rather casual players who never read the forums, and will take years if ever to even hit endgame content.

illessen · June 2013

If only leveling had some meaningful content(in every mmo for that matter). Then I can see slowing down the process. Imagine if leveling up was as slow as leveling leadership. Sure it would make leveling more meaningful, but the issue would be to create several forms of leveling up. People that like to quest, so you'd have to create enough content so that people CAN level up just through that, then also adding in other things like leveling through pvp, make rewards from group dungeons meaningful to the point they can actually last several levels(Imagine a dungeon that would drop lvl 10 epics and not be replaced until the next set of dungeons at lvl 20 or something).

If you make leveling really slow, you're going to have to create x amount of tiers of end game content so that people don't get bored leveling to get to the end game content. Then there's the whole issue of influx of people and new characters, the longer a game lasts, it's inevitable that there will be fewer and fewer people leveling up. To the point it's no longer possible to do all the content at x level sometimes.

Sure they could create a scaling system that scales higher levels down so that people leveling up could get assistance, but what about loot? That's the driving force in these games and no loot means no play.

Fact is, end game content is what is consumed most in these types of games, so that's what the devs focus on. And frankly, that's the easiest thing for them to do. Little effort to get the most. Quality doesn't mean much to these people anymore. Just look at WoW, it took ages back in classic to get to 60, dungeon rewards actually lasted several levels and levels took days to get to the next set of dungeons and weeks to get to 60. Now you can go from 1-90 in just a couple days. All the content is at the end because that's what players demanded most out of them.

etherealj · June 2013

I'll believe Foundry is the end game when it allows you to make hard encounters without just filling a room with the hardest mob you can think of at the moment.

crimsonconcepts · June 2013

illessen wrote: »

If only leveling had some meaningful content(in every mmo for that matter). Then I can see slowing down the process. Imagine if leveling up was as slow as leveling leadership. Sure it would make leveling more meaningful, but the issue would be to create several forms of leveling up. People that like to quest, so you'd have to create enough content so that people CAN level up just through that, then also adding in other things like leveling through pvp, make rewards from group dungeons meaningful to the point they can actually last several levels(Imagine a dungeon that would drop lvl 10 epics and not be replaced until the next set of dungeons at lvl 20 or something).

If you make leveling really slow, you're going to have to create x amount of tiers of end game content so that people don't get bored leveling to get to the end game content. Then there's the whole issue of influx of people and new characters, the longer a game lasts, it's inevitable that there will be fewer and fewer people leveling up. To the point it's no longer possible to do all the content at x level sometimes.

This is what I was thinking. Content from PW/Cryptic could be created for each 10 levels, this would make the key levels desireable to work towards, and have new created content for the for the next step of the next level gap.

There is no reason for the devs to make content for every level, that is the beauty of the Foundry. They don't need to. They needs to to make the larger content

Sure they could create a scaling system that scales higher levels down so that people leveling up could get assistance, but what about loot? That's the driving force in these games and no loot means no play.

Fact is, end game content is what is consumed most in these types of games, so that's what the devs focus on. And frankly, that's the easiest thing for them to do. Little effort to get the most. Quality doesn't mean much to these people anymore. Just look at WoW, it took ages back in classic to get to 60, dungeon rewards actually lasted several levels and levels took days to get to the next set of dungeons and weeks to get to 60. Now you can go from 1-90 in just a couple days. All the content is at the end because that's what players demanded most out of them.

The Foundry system can be a good place to have all the progression leveling and content be created. Setting progression levels as every 10 can give the larger story driven ideas to the Devs that want, and let the players use the Foundry to fill in the blanks.

They could also add an option to the Foundry that allows the creator to specify a level range, and not just any level. Or they could leave it open and from level 1 to 60 could all do the same quest.

dominemesis · June 2013

etherealj wrote: »

I'll believe Foundry is the end game when it allows you to make hard encounters without just filling a room with the hardest mob you can think of at the moment.

This differs from Cryptic "official" end game content in what way?

knoteskad · June 2013

I'd agree but it's already too late.

Although I'd like it if they did that but then made it so grouping (dungeons/skirmishes) were by FAR the best rate of EXP.

LF Leveling Group ala CoH, good times.

hann1bal13 · June 2013

I would really like to see this game model similar to eve. Perhaps this could be how they implement skills since it is a huge component of DND that is missing. I hate how 1-59 feels like work and it will be worse as they expand the game. Wow was a real chore to level up to 70 when I started and then still had to grind gear to do anything with my friends.

crimsonconcepts · June 2013

hann1bal13 wrote: »

I would really like to see this game model similar to eve. Perhaps this could be how they implement skills since it is a huge component of DND that is missing. I hate how 1-59 feels like work and it will be worse as they expand the game. Wow was a real chore to level up to 70 when I started and then still had to grind gear to do anything with my friends.

I agree, leveling is a more work then enjoyment, and even when you do get to that magic level, you still are the red headed step child until you get your Gearscore (REALLY bad idea) up to be good enough for the cool kids.

I think that Skill progression in games need to be considered more then just lets add points to X, Y, and Z. As much as it could be annoying I did like the idea of, if you use it you skill up in it.

For those that don't know much about Eve Online, this is an MMO that has been around for just over 10 years with a slowing growing player base every year. Their skill system is all based on Real Time training. This is something that many new players do not like because they think they can never be as good at something as other players that have played for years. In reality it only makes them slightly better and even then someone that it good at their class can do better then someone with more 'skills'. There is also no real 'level' in Eve.

With the game based on D&D it does already have a basis for leveling and skills. However I did notice that there are no real skills in Neverwinter, other then the ability trees. This means that one character can be just as good as any other if they are the same level and put their ability points into the same slots.

I have other issues with the classes, but this is not about that.

ordensmarschall · June 2013

I would guess I am a very different type of player then. I don't see the attraction in the End Game content. How often can you run Castle Never, before it gets repetitive? How many times can you whack the same people over the head in PvP before being bored? The Foundry is a great idea, always something new to try without needing to be max level. I never understood why people who don't like to level don't just play games where there is no leveling and everybody has great gear from the start. If leveling is such a grind then why bother playing a game where leveling is a core part of the game. Why not just take CoD put a medieval skin on it and call it good. Personally, I like making different characters and taking them through the game. Especially since different races and classes can get different quests. After playing a character at max level for a little then I retire them, because there is no more challenge or goals to make.

crimsonconcepts · June 2013

For some other games I played to be max level, but maybe with age or just interest, I enjoy playing my mid level characters better then anything max level.

I have done PvP a bit, but to be honest I am a bit disappointed that there is only one map of PvP.

ganjaman1 · June 2013

xhrit wrote: »

Such an arrogant notion to assume you know what everyone is doing.

The majority of a mmo's playerbase are not hardcore raiders and forum warriors, but rather casual players who never read the forums, and will take years if ever to even hit endgame content.

The majority of the population is doing T2 content which includes CN , I assume the zone chat is something brand new for you and people like you so my advise is take a look at it whenever you have the chance and you'll see what I am talking about .

lostmarbleshere · June 2013

I think leveling could go slower. BUt that is never going to happen. They would also have to create more quests otherwise people are then reduced to even more grinding. Although the foundry could be a source for more quests.

This game was rushed to the market way to fast. They needed to get cash flow from the zen store. Now this june 20th release date. I think it should be pushed back a month or two or even 3 if that means they can get this game to a condition for it to succeed and compete with the other MMO's

llfritzll · June 2013

crimsonconcepts wrote: »

Make the leveling a logarithmic curve, every 10 levels it starts over on the curve.

base 10 logarithms are only one type of logarithm.

crimsonconcepts · June 2013

llfritzll wrote: »

base 10 logarithms are only one type of logarithm.

Thanks for the basic math tip, but not quite what was trying to say. Leveling should take more exp the closer you get to every 10 levels. This makes the 10, 20, 30, etc levels actual achievements since level X9 takes so much more work to do. It would slow progression but still give people the lower X1 levels would go pretty fast.

I think leveling could go slower. BUt that is never going to happen. They would also have to create more quests otherwise people are then reduced to even more grinding. Although the foundry could be a source for more quests.

In some ways you are right, but the Foundry is EXACTLY what would fill that gap. There are so many foundry quests that people have never touched. I keep trying to test out other stuff from the forums since without help from the forums, they would never even make it into the search.

Slow Progression before release

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