TR build comparison LUNA / Metzli

tojolobal2 · May 2013

I usually rotate with Shadow Strike, Lashing strike and Bait and switch. I find as solo PvE I have great survivability.. but my DPS is obviously suffering at my current build now that I've started to do more DD .. So I'm about to respec..

Looking through the forums I see two pretty different builds posted by Luna's and Metzli (if there is yet another option I'd be interested in knowing).

Can I get someone to sound off on DPS comparison of the two builds. Metzli stacks AP/Recovery while Lunda's build doesn't seem to focus on AP. Different rotations mean different stat priorities, but I'm interested to here which is more efficient to date. From the posts Luna and Metzli + Metzli stat distribution recap

Please don't focus on the stat priorities posted below as this is simply how I've read the material (I could easily have misunderstood) .. feel free to correct me without too much attitude! I'm really more interested in the comparison DPS of the two builds.

I've filled in some blanks here .. sorry if my assumptions are poor. Mitzli I didn't have stats for so I've done tried to apply the recomended values from a comparison to LUNAs total points in stats. Following Metzli's stat priorities (which seem to be AP > RECOVERY > CRIT=POWER provided crit is at least 2000 isn't as much a priority as AP and Recovery.

LUNA
Power 4999
Crit 2953
Armor Pen 416
Recovery 1146
Def 838
Deflect 314
10666

VS

Mitzli
Power 2414
Crit 2000
Armor Pen 2200
Recovery 2900
Def 838
Deflect 314
10666

I've been missing out on Blitz (wanted to focus on Melee as a rogue), but I realize now that has to change as I seem to be missing out on signifigant AoE damage.

LA, LS appear to be the meat and potates of both builds however the standard rotations differ a bit.

Lunda rotation Duelist Flurry - Lashing Strike - Dazing Strike - Blitz (only if there are multiple monsters) with LA up as often as possible, taking opportunities of AoE with Whirl Wind.

Mitzli guide has focused more so on BOSS rotation. I might be making a poor assumption here but I've assumed shadow strike is in the standard rotation with Wicked Reminder or Dazing strike I'm not sure (plus similaril to Luna's with blitz as the third Encounter)

I like Mitzli's consideration to Wicked Reminder on Boss as I've been able to turn the tide with a boss fight or two using this strategy I do think this is signifigant. I've also got Shadow Strike as one of my mains and have grown accustom to being in stealth the majority of combat.

So what have others found? Is there a big winner here between the two builds?

kurahavi · May 2013

The higher the bleed on autoattack you get as a rogue the better the rogue build is. Anything else is subpar, encounter damage means nothing compared to how much your autoattack bleeds do, at most you can do like 10-15% of max damage with lashing blade, while this being about 1/5th the damage the bleed does. Altho I would also point out that t2 trolls got around 20% damage migitation from armor, so putting bit on armor pen might not hurt, maybe like 1k armor pen.

tojolobal2 · May 2013

I'm built similar to Luna, but my spec isn't executioner and needs some fixing.

I'm probably about 3Power:2Crit:1AP:1Revovery with recovery being a bit over AP so I can't say my gear is all wrong (with respect to going with the LUNA build). Still I wonder if I've got the split for what Mitzli meant to achieve for their build..

Thanks for the feedback. Would like to hear others too though!

byonah · May 2013

The stat estimation you put there are a bit low. Here is what i got:

Still not finished as i'd rather have ~250 more Ar.P

tojolobal2 · May 2013

I'm sure they could be higher, but the point is HOW to prioritize and which strategy returns superior DPS.

From your stats prioritization I'm assuming you're saying that Luna's build is superior? Have you tried Mitzli build by comparison?

The two builds are really pointing in two different directions from what I can see...
Mitzli's taking care of ArP & Recovery higher than what you've prioritized before dumping into Crit/Power..

You've got great stats though. To be honest I'd be happy to be sitting where you are when I'm done. I'm about 10% lower overall with my mediocre enchantments (except my recovery is a bit over ArP at the moment)

byonah · May 2013

tojolobal2 wrote: »

I'm sure they could be higher, but the point is HOW to prioritize and which strategy returns superior DPS.

From your stats prioritization I'm assuming you're saying that Luna's build is superior? Have you tried Mitzli build by comparison?

The two builds are really pointing in two different directions from what I can see...
Mitzli's taking care of ArP & Recovery higher than what you've prioritized before dumping into Crit/Power..

You've got great stats though. To be honest I'd be happy to be sitting where you are when I'm done. I'm about 10% lower overall with my mediocre enchantments (except my recovery is a bit over ArP at the moment)

I believe everyone agrees (including Luna) that around 22% Armor Pen is what you need. Which is probably a bit over 2.1k i'd stop there though.

As for Crit rating, Mitzli covered that topic pretty well and he did the most math for that i believe. I am currently aiming to be at 50% no more. Then put the rest on Power.

I do not care for Recovery as a TR, most of the DPS comes from Duelist Flurry, Encounters are good, but not good enough to focus Recovery, considering that as you can see i have 1710 Recovery without even stacking it, then add 1013 from Swashbuckling 4 piece set, thats more than enough.

So in the end, as long as i have 50% Crit rate, 21-22% Armor Pen, its power all the way for me.

thedeadstar · May 2013

Personally I got similar stats to Luna:
Power: 5779
Crit: 2951
Ar.P.: 835
Rec: 780
Def: 990
Deflect: 518
Life Steal: 712

Don't feel like Recovery is a that great rogue stat PvE wise. Our AP Reg is with tactics high enough (with action advantage even better) - didn't had those a few days ago, now with respec its an "insane" AP rec.
Mostly using for trash:
Smoke Bomb, Leashing, Impossible to Catch (to focus high HP Mobs better while standing in their knockback aoes)
For bosses i switch smoke bomb with wicked reminder, thats all. Doing fine that way.
Class features are
tactics
Tenacious Concealment OR Skillfull/Invisible Infiltrator, completly depending on the dungeon, bosses etc - with aoe dot circles you can't avoid getting hits, so your stealth will drop, otherwise i change it.

in before anyone flames: planning on getting more Ar.P for sure, maybe removing some radiant gems.

tojolobal2 · May 2013

Shame on me for not reading further into Mitzli's further explanation. I must admit I have limited time to dig into the forums. Your comments are well received. I may do as TheDeadstar and switch out some enchants prioritize a bit better.

byonah wrote: »

I believe everyone agrees (including Luna) that around 22% Armor Pen is what you need. Which is probably a bit over 2.1k i'd stop there though.

As for Crit rating, Mitzli covered that topic pretty well and he did the most math for that i believe. I am currently aiming to be at 50% no more. Then put the rest on Power.

I do not care for Recovery as a TR, most of the DPS comes from Duelist Flurry, Encounters are good, but not good enough to focus Recovery, considering that as you can see i have 1710 Recovery without even stacking it, then add 1013 from Swashbuckling 4 piece set, thats more than enough.

So in the end, as long as i have 50% Crit rate, 21-22% Armor Pen, its power all the way for me.

Looks like my biggest problem right now are my feats.. and I've gotta learn to play a rogue.. ha!

e11z · May 2013

Here's a neat tip for rogues. (you probably know this anyways)

But Teamed up with a CW - Use a stealthed Wicked reminder after the mobs land in an arcane singularity for an insane Small AOE mass hit. Coupled with the 3 stacks all the mobs gain and if you have another Rogue in the team doing the same thing, you can get 10 x 10k crits with Wicked reminder x 2 coupled with a fully 5 stacked group of mobs.

It's unlimited amount of targets it seems so far, and it is madness how much damage mobs take after smacking them with a well timed stealthed double Wicked reminder!

I think with a double rogue setup Wicked reminder is the future (specially when you start getting 50 k crits with lashing blade with my crappy stats)

I got atm,

4k Power
650 AP (1.2k with set bonus stack)

I think the sweet spot for Life steal is 10% as well. Other wise you start diminishing your attack power/Arpen/Crit

I am going to aim for High Pen + High Power with 41% crit rate. Controversial to some, as people like to try and hit 50% but i find 40% just fine for me

so hopefully my stats will be

5k + power
1.5k AP
41-45% crit Rate( not too fussed )
1k Lifesteal
800-1k defense
800 Rec (roughly 10% reduction = 1 second less)

Now one thing in pvp that i am confused about is Deflect.

Do rogues take 25% damage whilst deflecting? or is it 25% damage reduction.

I crit a rogue for 2500k with lashing when it usually does 10k+. It would make sense if this is the case and absurdly OVERPOWERED whilst I mention it.

Does anyone have any info about deflect and its usefulness in pvp?

thedeadstar · May 2013

Deflection Severity is currently bugged OR the Tooltip is just missleading.
You indeed get only 25% with deflect / while impossible to catch (non stealthed). It was reported already like 2 weeks ago, if it would be a bug it would be already fixed though, its just switching numbers to fix this, nothing special.

solsol1337 · May 2013

It seems like my post is a bit misleading, or maybe just hard to understand. I said many times that my recommendations for recovery are based solely off the DR point, not the value of recovery, as I am not sure how to calculate that. But given that recovery is pretty cheap in terms of %'s , having some of it isn't bad (with swashbuckler's + innate recovery on T2 gear and a pet you should be at around 2500 at least). So I was not in any way saying to stack 2900 recovery.

On the crit thing, I did the math to show exactly when power starts being better than crit. My stat priority is exactly what it said in my stat breakdown: ~2200 arp, Crit : ~2000 (+~250 per rank of vorpal), less if you are not an executioner rogue, somewhere less than 2900 recovery (don't enchant it or anything) , then all power.

The difference in my guide and luna's guide is essentially this:

If you are playing rogue well currently, your bleed goes up once and stays up. Its damage is static. Therefore you do not need to consider its damage beyond "Is it critting" and "What buffs can I apply to it" (in terms of more power, debuffs on the boss, etc). So when you are optimizing your dps you are actually optimizing everything except your bleed damage. This comes down to the actual flurry of Duelist's Flurry and Lashing Blade. Shadow strike gives you optimal stealth uptime, which is a 25% crit severity and 20% ap regen buff in my spec. Using Dazing Strike for dps purposes is just an ill-conceived idea.

So basically the idea is that more stealth up time, and more lurker's assault uptime optimizes your non bleed dps, as bleed dps is static (assuming you open right and do not let it drop).

Also, based on what I just said, you may assume that the bleed's functionality devalues crit (since bleed crits are locked). However, the more crit you have , the better the chances you do not need to reset your bleed, and thus the better chances you actually open well (this is worth something in the range of 30-40% of your dps).

tojolobal2 · May 2013

Thanks for the tip. Ive used wicked reminder from time to time but focused on boss useage. Ill try thats now.

So I respecd last night and the results were well worth it. Probably doubled my dps. Prior I was more stealth scoundrel which I still feel had better survivability from stealth, but more like shoveling coal.. Now im tops on dps and I dont feel gimped. Still some tweeking tout all is good.

tojolobal2 · May 2013

solsol1337 wrote: »

It seems like my post is a bit misleading, or maybe just hard to understand. I said many times that my recommendations for recovery are based solely off the DR point, not the value of recovery, as I am not sure how to calculate that. But given that recovery is pretty cheap in terms of %'s , having some of it isn't bad (with swashbuckler's + innate recovery on T2 gear and a pet you should be at around 2500 at least). So I was not in any way saying to stack 2900 recovery.

On the crit thing, I did the math to show exactly when power starts being better than crit. My stat priority is exactly what it said in my stat breakdown: ~2200 arp, Crit : ~2000 (+~250 per rank of vorpal), less if you are not an executioner rogue, somewhere less than 2900 recovery (don't enchant it or anything) , then all power.

The difference in my guide and luna's guide is essentially this:

If you are playing rogue well currently, your bleed goes up once and stays up. Its damage is static. Therefore you do not need to consider its damage beyond "Is it critting" and "What buffs can I apply to it" (in terms of more power, debuffs on the boss, etc). So when you are optimizing your dps you are actually optimizing everything except your bleed damage. This comes down to the actual flurry of Duelist's Flurry and Lashing Blade. Shadow strike gives you optimal stealth uptime, which is a 25% crit severity and 20% ap regen buff in my spec. Using Dazing Strike for dps purposes is just an ill-conceived idea.

So basically the idea is that more stealth up time, and more lurker's assault uptime optimizes your non bleed dps, as bleed dps is static (assuming you open right and do not let it drop).

Also, based on what I just said, you may assume that the bleed's functionality devalues crit (since bleed crits are locked). However, the more crit you have , the better the chances you do not need to reset your bleed, and thus the better chances you actually open well (this is worth something in the range of 30-40% of your dps).

Thanks for your comments. I hadn't meant to misrepresent .. I think I just misinterpreted a bit.

I am comforted to realize I don't in fact play the rogue as poorly as I feared prior to respec. The Executioner build you kind gentlmen have outlined works well. With minor changes to my rotation I was actually outperforming other rogues I ran into last night (3 or 4). and nearly doubled my dps.

It's almost sad really how significant a difference Executioner makes. We're in Beta though so it's understandable, but it would be nice to see the other builds be viable for different play styles (ie survival with at least reasonable DPS). I've found my spec under Scoundrel just doesn't compete even with the higher survival rate considered.

I'm after the Captains armor next.. if anyone is interested in Temple. (DC's especially!). I'm finding the auto queue just doesn't work well enough. Would love to get a good group for farming every so often.

Nyx@winterben123
Dragon

noyouwont · May 2013

I think you guys are ignoring path of blades way too much as an encounter to be used, simply because the cast time is relatively low and it can be run concurrently with flurry while in lurker or after lurker to build AP back up very fast. Most boss encounters are going to have you dealing with a lot of AoE targets anyways, the multiple hits of PoB are going to run your AP meter right back up and back into lurker ASAP.

Also, the singlemost neglected stat for melee dps is MOVEMENT SPEED. DPS uptime is more important than numbers on paper. One could argue that 400+ movement speed boots would be better than T2, just because you can get a few more hits in. Meters > Paper.

matrias88 · May 2013

Those stats seem low to me also. I have 5700 AP/ 2600 Crit / 2550 ARP / 2900 Recovery / 1550 life steal myself.

matrias88 · May 2013

Using AoE attacks as a rogue without a wizard in a group is valid but you SHOULD have 1-2 wizards in every dungeon run and the wizards should be tossing the mobs off cliffs while you fight the unmovable ones. My guild and i always have a good laugh on teamspeak when we see a rogue we got to fill a spot for DD and hes using any AoE's because even if he does 20% damage to a group of mobs whats that account for when 2 seconds later my friends toss that HAMSTER off the cliff.
You're better off running with smokebomb over blitz then you can silence a huge group of enemies and don't have to run out of AoE attacks and at the same time your helping the group survive and do more overall damage, this is especially usefull in Castle Never when clearing trash and helpfull in CoK and Spellplague quite a lot too. Stop TRYING to pad your dps charts and be a teamplayer, the last rogue i ran spellplague with using the AoE build upbove did 6.7mill damage i did 13.7mill damage with full single target i would have used smokebomb but the two wizards were chaining the black hole.

thedeadstar · May 2013

Exactly what I trink matrias.
Running with Smoke Bomb as well for that reason, sometimes even at final boss (depends on which one, Temple of Spider e.g.) lashing blade as a kind of finisher and impossible to catch to be able to stick to the most annoying mobs while eating most hits, so it dies in the end faster. DPS at scoreboard isn't all but however, rogues will mostly lead it anyway if done right without trying to "fake" it with useless aoe attacks.

Saving smoke bomb for black hole can help a lot as well if you put it there so the wizard can knock off the mobs easier.

noyouwont · May 2013

matrias88 wrote: »

Using AoE attacks as a rogue without a wizard in a group is valid but you SHOULD have 1-2 wizards in every dungeon run and the wizards should be tossing the mobs off cliffs while you fight the unmovable ones. My guild and i always have a good laugh on teamspeak when we see a rogue we got to fill a spot for DD and hes using any AoE's because even if he does 20% damage to a group of mobs whats that account for when 2 seconds later my friends toss that HAMSTER off the cliff.
You're better off running with smokebomb over blitz then you can silence a huge group of enemies and don't have to run out of AoE attacks and at the same time your helping the group survive and do more overall damage, this is especially usefull in Castle Never when clearing trash and helpfull in CoK and Spellplague quite a lot too. Stop TRYING to pad your dps charts and be a teamplayer, the last rogue i ran spellplague with using the AoE build upbove did 6.7mill damage i did 13.7mill damage with full single target i would have used smokebomb but the two wizards were chaining the black hole.

I could care less about the numbers during trash. I'm talking about DPS during boss encounters. I'm also talking about PoB proccing my AP, rather than using it for damage. But w/e. Spout off.

solsol1337 · May 2013

Comparing yourself to an obviously terrible rogue (rogue that you beat by 2x damage in any dungeon, ever) does not support him doing it wrong though. There are quite a few places that you do not just toss things off ledges. In those cases not using dazing/blitz/wicked reminder for aoe damage is just gimping your group. Wizards using repel in those situations is also gimping your group, as the rogue doing things correctly will do more aoe damage than a CW any day of the week (assuming the wizard actually groups the mobs). And you should easily be able to cast one black hole per group of mobs, without repel, unless you are doing something terribly wrong.

All this is not to mention that an AoE wicked reminder adds a damage buff to every mob. And an aoe dazing strike will stun every mob.

tojolobal2 · May 2013

matrias88 wrote: »

Using AoE attacks as a rogue without a wizard in a group is valid but you SHOULD have 1-2 wizards in every dungeon run and the wizards should be tossing the mobs off cliffs while you fight the unmovable ones. My guild and i always have a good laugh on teamspeak when we see a rogue we got to fill a spot for DD and hes using any AoE's because even if he does 20% damage to a group of mobs whats that account for when 2 seconds later my friends toss that HAMSTER off the cliff.
You're better off running with smokebomb over blitz then you can silence a huge group of enemies and don't have to run out of AoE attacks and at the same time your helping the group survive and do more overall damage, this is especially usefull in Castle Never when clearing trash and helpfull in CoK and Spellplague quite a lot too. Stop TRYING to pad your dps charts and be a teamplayer, the last rogue i ran spellplague with using the AoE build upbove did 6.7mill damage i did 13.7mill damage with full single target i would have used smokebomb but the two wizards were chaining the black hole.

I full agree with the sentiment top DPS isn't primary order, but synergy with your team is. First and foremost though, i need to fix my build before I can perform AS EXPECTED by teammates.

My only real change to my rotation was to include Blitz or Wicked reminder situationally.. I personally feel Blitz is a worth contribution since (as a rogue) it's not efficient to run from weak mob to weak mob pecking away if there's not heavy in the group.

Throwing mobs over the cliff side is probably something I'll enjoy as well when I level a CW. I wonder though how useful a rogue is while mobs are catapulted if they are expected not to resort to any AoE? If there's no Tough Guy mob should we feel link a jerky and stand behind the CW and shouted words of encouragement? Usually I help pull the beasties as best I can to position, but yes.. I've been attacking mobs while a CW blasts them over the cliff.. but c'man.. pshh.. what ya gonna do eh?

I don't focus on AoE, but it is useful and as Sol pointed out there's utility there that contributes to the group over and above whatever DPS is dished out.

batuba · May 2013

Hello all, this is Luna. As for my stats I've recently been running these stats per the suggestion of many TR's. Though I should show it since the OP didnt have my current stats (nor could he since I hadn't posted it yet!)

solsol1337 · May 2013

Those stats mirror pretty closely what I've come to with my math also. Maybe about 200 too much crit rating.

TR build comparison LUNA / Metzli

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