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TRICKSHAW'S Power, Weapon Damage and what it all means.
trickshaw
Member Posts: 497 Arc User
Power, Weapon Damage & what it actually means...
So, as some of you may know I have been bashing Power for quite some time. So allow me to clear the air on what EXACTLY Power does.
First things first. That tooltip you get when you hover over power on your character sheet? The one that says "Damage And Healing Bonus". Yeah... ignore that. Ignore it completely. I don't know what that number is or where they get it from but it most certainly does not add into the equation in any way that I'm seeing. What you SHOULD pay attention to is the tooltip damage listed in your abilities. So far I have not seen them deviate at all. So I'm going out on a limb here and will say it's safe to go off those... for now.
Now, what power does is not even remotely close to being straight forward. My first thought was to find the weakest weapon I could and start from there. It seemed easy enough. And at first I was like... WHOA! Power does some amazing ****! Then I started expanding my testing parameters...
So, first thing I did was take a level 2 weapon (Damage Range 27-34), equip it and check my base damage for IBS (our hardest hitting encounter), Sure Strike and Reaping Strike. I left WMS out because due to it's debuffing nature it just over complicates what's going on. My base damage was as follows:
Baseline
Sure Strike: 48-50
Reaping Strike: 227-239
IBS: 484-510
I attacked a training dummy for a good 10-15 minutes for each attack to verify that these numbers were literal and per my parses they were. Aside from crits the damage done never once deviated from these listed parameters. So that tells us that the tooltip is indeed actually working correctly.
Next I started applying Power in increments of 200. The results are as follows:
[COLOR="#000000"]
Power 0 200 %inc 400 %inc 600 %inc 800 %inc
Ability
SS 48-50 51-53 (6) 54-56 (12) 57-59 (18) 60-62 (24)
RS 227-239 236-248 (4) 245-257 (7.5) 255-267 (11.7) 264-276 (15.5)
IBS 484-510 512-537 (5.4) 539-564 (10.6) 567-593 (16.3) 595-621 (21.8)
[/COLOR]
HOLY COW TRICKSHAW THOSE NUMBERS ARE IMPRESSIVE!!
That's what you're thinking, right? Well, before you run off in-game to start respec'ing and regearing I suggest you read this section in it's entirety. But before you do there are 3 things that are important to note:
1.) The % increased provided in the chart is based off of the MAX damage difference between the baseline and that particular integer.
2.) The weapon itself came with 11 power and I wasn't able to get the increments in EXACT levels of 200 due to the gear at hand. For example, one piece had 197 Power. However, the baseline values provided had a starting power of 11 and then ending values had a total of 812. So the start to end deviance is exactly 1 point of Power.
It's not exact but it's as exact as I could get it with what I had laying around. This may account for some deviance we're seeing in progression but it would be minimal I assure you.
3.) Finally, for those of you clever enough to check these numbers, you'll note there's a percentile difference in damage gain between minimum damage and maximum damage. This is especially predominant in IBS. I can only account for this by some internal modifier Cryptic has set for minimum damage.
2.) The weapon itself came with 11 power and I wasn't able to get the increments in EXACT levels of 200 due to the gear at hand. For example, one piece had 197 Power. However, the baseline values provided had a starting power of 11 and then ending values had a total of 812. So the start to end deviance is exactly 1 point of Power.
It's not exact but it's as exact as I could get it with what I had laying around. This may account for some deviance we're seeing in progression but it would be minimal I assure you.
3.) Finally, for those of you clever enough to check these numbers, you'll note there's a percentile difference in damage gain between minimum damage and maximum damage. This is especially predominant in IBS. I can only account for this by some internal modifier Cryptic has set for minimum damage.
Now, what exactly does all this mean? Three things, 1.) That power is indeed affecting different abilities at different ratios, 2.) That WHILE AT LOW LEVELS Power is your most important stat and you should stack that above any other stat while starting out and, 3.) That this means absolutely bollocks later on and here's why...
So now that I had my baseline pattern it was time for me to look at this in a more realistic view. Thus I checked the AH in order to find a weapon with as close to 1,000 Power as I could find (Since increments of 1k seem to be the "standard" unit of measurement on the forums) and I found myself a level 50 weapon (dmg 405-495) with 968 power, threw on some Superb Pants and I was at a total power of 996. Close enough. This was my baseline:
Baseline
Sure Strike: 218-255
Reaping Strike: 1008-1183
IBS: 2186-2559
Now, before you clever people out there start blowing up allow me to continue so what you're noticing right now will be clear to those who aren't mathematical wizards. Just like before I began adding Power in increments of 200. The results are as follows:
[COLOR="#000000"] Pwr 1000 1200 %inc 1400 %inc 1600 %inc 1800 %inc SS 218-255 221-258 (1.2) 224-261 (2.4) 227-264 (3.5) 230-267 (4.7) RS 1008-1183 1017-1192 (.76) 1026-1201 (1.5) 1035-1211 (2.4) 1045-1220 (3.1) IBS 2186-2559 2213-2587 (1.1) 2240-2614 (2.15) 2268-2642 (3.24) 2297-2670 (4.34) [/COLOR]
Ok, now your heads may explode...
It's at this point in time that I immediately figured that the disparity in Power contribution must stem from some sort of Weapon Damage to Power ratio. That would make sense since you wouldn't want someone walking around with a level 60 weapon netting a 22% DPS gain for IBS from a paltry 800 power. So I went straight back to the AH, found me a level 52 weapon (so it would have a little bit more damage) with roughly the same power and then compare the two. I popped in a level 3 Radiant into the level 50 weapon in order to get the power up to par with that of the level 52 so I could minimize that variable. These were the results:
[COLOR="#000000"] [U]Level 52[/U] [U]Level 50[/U] [U]%Difference[/U] Dmg: 426-521 Dmg:405-495 Power: 1023 Power: 1033 SS: 227-266 SS: 218-255 4.31% RS: 1049-1234 RS: 1009-1185 4.13% IBS: 2275-2668 IBS: 2191-2565 4.02% [/COLOR]
So, what does this mean? In short, that point for point weapon damage (as I stated in other threads) is the single most important DPS factor. With a damage difference of 20-25 points you accomplish the same DPS increase as 800 power.
So, if you see two weapons with similar Power bonuses but different Min/Max Damage--like... oh I dunno... a Sharpened Ice Axe vs. Drake's Greatsword of the Avatar of War--now you know which one to pick up. And now you can scratch your head and wonder why exactly people are listing weapons for prices that seem completely backwards.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by trickshaw on
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Comments
Edit:
Ok, that looks better.
The number shown on the power stat I believe is basically bonus weapon damage.
And without a weapon equipped all of your abilities have a base dmg, which is then increased by weapon damage by a certain coefficient per ability, and power then adds even more flat weapon damage by a small amount. So that's why power is giving less overall % increase the higher your weapon damage is and the higher your power is.
You could probably check if this is true by testing the coefficient on power and weapon damage. Also tooltips would be skewed a little by bonus damage stuff like from Str although I don't think it really matters that much for testing here.
Lemme check, I'm still at the comp with Neverwinter loaded. Brb.
Edit:
So, with the level 2 weapon I used in the OP the damage is 27-34. It has 11 power which, per the tooltip, is +0.4 damage. With +800 power (812 in total) the tooltip states +34.5 dmg. So, if it's bonus weapon damage that would bring the damage window 61.5-68.5, which is beyond what the actual damage comes out to be.
I'm sure there's some kind of formula for all of this but I am no where near mathematical enough to sit down and figure it out. I just started working out DPS % increases because 1.) that I can do and, 2.) in the end that's all that really matters.
If there's anyone out there with any answers I'm always willing to hear them!
Granted I'm 35 so the numbers are smaller.
Restoring Strike w/no weapon = 117-117 dmg
Weapon 1 = 242 - 296 dmg / 611 Power = +24.4 dmg = 293.4 average weapon damage
Weapon 2 = 251 - 307 dmg / 564 Power = 22.6 dmg = 301.6 average weapon damage
Took the tooltip of Restoring Strike and the subtracted the 117 base it had w/o a weapon.
Weapon 1 = 620 - 747 = 683.5 average Restoring Strike
Weapon 2 = 637 - 768 = 702.5 average Restoring Strike
Then divided by the average total weapon dmg to get my coefficient.
Instance 1 = 293.4 / 683.5 = 42.93% coefficient
Instance 2 = 301.6 / 702.5 = 42.93% coefficient
edit : I iz stoopids and did it backwards.
Instance 1 = 683.5 / 293.4 = 232.9% coefficient
Instance 2 = 702.5 / 301.6 = 232.9% coefficient
I think I follow what you're doing here. I'll check real quick.
Weapon 1 = Lvl 52; Weapon 2 = Lvl 50
Weapon 1 Average: 466.9-561.9 = 514.4
Weapon 2 Average: 446.3-536.3 = 491.3
Weapon 1 RS Tooltip: 1517-1778
Weapon 2 RS Tooltip: 1460-1710
Restoring Strike Base: 245
Weapon 1 RS w/o RS Base: 1272-1533 - Average = 1402.5
Weapon 2 RS w/o RS Base: 1215-1465 - Average = 1340
514.4/1402.5=36.677
491.3/1340=36.666
Alright, now that I did that... what does that mean?
Kept ~2000 Power in both cases
Axe: 2000 Power, 769-941 WD, IBS tooltip ~3969-4698
Sword: 2000 Power, 752-919 WD, IBS tooltip ~3900-4613
Details under Power stat say it adds an additional 80 damage:
Axe: Total WD: 80+(769-941) ~ 849-1021
Sword: Total WD: 80+(752-919) ~ 832-999
Scaled for Str damage bonus. I had 26 str with 3 into the bonus feat. So 16%*1.15 = +16.96%
Axe: 992-1194
Sword: 973-1168
Assuming IBS has a 4x multiplier
Axe IBS: 3968-4776
Sword IBS: 3892-4672
Comparing the predicted values and actual tooltip values in bold, the minimum damage seems pretty accurate within some error in rounding power. But I'm not sure what's going into maximum damage, the top end is getting a little extra beyond the presumed 4x multiplier.
Weird.
Well it could mean that coefficients get worse as you level, I'm actually close to 36 so I'll test the exact same thing then and see.
I've also noticed a pattern with the base of skills' damages with and w/o a weapon. So the base could be an important factor so you probably can't just subtract it.
There, use that. I made it.
Plug in the values for your skills.
I would imagine there has to be some level of difference because before launch they hacksawed GWF base damage in 1/2.
No.
((((Abilitybasemindmg+(MinWepDmg+(Power/25))*Scaling)+(Abilitybasemaxdmg+(MaxWepDmg+(Power/25))*Scaling))/2)*(1+(Feats%+(Strength-10)+CA%)*,01))*(1+(Arp%*,01)
plug that into
((1-Crit%*,01)*Dmg + (Crit%*,01)*((1+(Severity%*,01))*Dmg))
and into
(DMG/(CD*(1-(Feats%+CDR%)*,01)))
and now you got dps
you guys are making it way more complicated that it needs to be:
power/25 = wep dmg
All abilities have a wepdmg coefficient of scaling, for example Knee Break has a 5.0 coefficient which means 1 Wep dmg (25 power) = 5 dmg.
Oh wait, LOL I've been doing it backwards this whole time. I guess I did have the idea right on my first post, I was just calculating backwards and it wasn't matching up.
Thank god, so + dmg from power really is just more weapon dmg then, much simpler.
Do you know if that means it's ACTUALLY giving higher weapon dmg as in, thing's that scale directly from weapon dmg like enchants get boosted with power?
I've had it sitting in the bank for a while now. I liked the ArmPen and Recovery stats, but in my sleep deprived brain fog, I have not wrapped my head around this thread.
Basically armpen/crit/recovery all the way til you hit those caps, then Power actually becomes decent. Speaking in terms of dmg.
Okay, thanks. I like having an Axe to look forward to.
This is awesome and will add it to the OP as soon as you could tell me where I would find the coefficients for each ability. Please? That would be super awesome. This is fantastic stuff.
For both, the lv2 and lvl50 its like that
per 200 power you get:
SS: +3 min/max Dmg
RS: +9 min/max Dmg
IBS: +28 min/max Dmg
Your weapon Dmg doesn't matter for Power at all.
Edit:
which means:
- power didn't got any got cap, its a fixed bonus depending on the skill/base dmg of the skill most likely its sth like
min dmg=base value + (base value * x * power) + (weapon dmg * y)
same for max dmg, while x and y are fixed
For sure, percentage whise its less effective the more power you get, like for first 200 power its +2%, next 1,9%, next 1,81% and so on
just tell me this:
Power is simply adding a flat amount of extra min/max damage to my Skills. correct?
at what ratio? 1 Power = How much Damage?
or even more simply, i am level 33 on my GWF and my tooltip says "Contributes to Damage/Healing Bonus +40.8.
this means that it adds 40.8 points of damage to all my skills? or is it not that simple?
Base Ability dmg + Scaling*Wep Damage = Dmg
Just add power, find the weapon damage that power gave, get the difference between initial ability dmg and final and divide by the amount of weapon damage you got.
I have spent about... probably $120 in respecs checking various builds and then comparing parses. Testing different encounters and just trying to get a hold on the class as a whole. Not just one aspect.
What I can tell you is this, Steely Defense is complete sh*t unless you're going for the Instigator capstone with Deep Gash.
Yeah this.
I was calculating the coefficient backwards before lol.
For instance instead of 0.4 something coefficient on restoring strike it's actually like 2.3.
Just do it before where you added power + wep dmg and subtracted the base.