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The Tao of Disengaging - PvP Theorycrafting for GWF
kolatmaster
Member Posts: 3,111 Arc User
Greetings my friends and fellow GWF enthusiasts! :cool:
Since hitting 60 on my first GWF build, using the Instigator path I decided to level up a second GWF. This one primarily focused by leveling via PvP. My first GWF was a Dwarf who started out with 18str/17con/13dex/10/10/8. I wanted to be a little bit more 'min/max' with my second incarnation (yes I still have the first one active!), and went Half-Orc with 18str/18dex/12con/10/10/10.
The Half-Orc is currently level 33, and I spent a majority of the levels exclusively in PvP. I am aware that GWF is decent at lower/mid levels then it is later when everyone is 60. Until a few levels ago, I spent a good portion of my PvPing running around haphazardly trying to kill as many people as possible while capping flags whenever I could. I would end up going like... 6-10, 8-8, 6-4, 5-12, etc. Mostly about with more deaths then kills (outside of randomly stellar games) and I'd be middle of the pack points wise. Not bad, not good, but fairly even.
Later in the 20s I noticed people were able to kill me more readily, particularly TR/CW/etc. Mainly based on abilities, and such. So I took a few moments to truly look at the goals of PvPing and theorycraft the GWF strengths/weaknesses in relation to the other classes.
TR - Supreme killers, and annoying stealth.
GF - Hard as hell to kill, but can eventually be worn down.
CW -Surpeme annoyance with long range spells and teleports.
DC - Fairly hard to kill, with enough CC to also be annoying (plus Heals of course!)
GWF - Gap closers w/Sprint and Mighty Leap, fairly hard to kill with armor/HPs, can hit multiple targets, and can be immune to CC for a time with Unstoppable.
So, the commonality I see for the GWF is that we can be immune/annoying to CC, and we can close distances fast, while being tanky enough to be annoying. If we flip the closing distance fast to being able to extract oneself from a dangerous situation in time of need, we get to the heart of the Tao of Disengaging.
What I have begun to do is quite simply really... At the beginning of the queue I suggest that I (if the only GWF in the group) go to Flag 1 while the other four members of the team go to the mid Flag 2. Once I cap the first flag, I run towards the 2nd flag and scout out anyone low on health. If I think I can get in a quick hit w/Flourish/Takedown/etc. I go for it, and then disengage. Or I continue on to the opponents Flag 3, and camp it until one or two members of the opposing team come to interfere. When they do come, I am looking to make the fight last as long as possible while having my opponents use as many of their abilities as they can. Once I am down to 25% or lower hitpoints, I start paying close attention to their level of hitpoints/what they have used/if reinforcements are coming/etc. Once the determination is made that I believe my defeat is inevitable, I disengage w/Sprinting-Charging and/or Mighty Leaping away. Immediately going to the nearest Health Pot, or my teams DC (if we have one).
Disengaging can have people chase you or spend time capping the flag you were already on. Thus taking points away from the opposing team. I then heal and make a determination to return if I feel there is a single opponent I can take out (after previously damaging them), or swing back through Flag 2 to assist my teammates as necessary by 'sniping' out someone low on HPs. Once that is done, I begin to roam around again. Constantly trying to engage someone 1v1 or even 1v2 (if they are cumulatively low on HPs) thereby tying them up as the rest of my team controls the mid Flag and/or engages in battle at another flag.
The ability of the GWF to be able to ignore CC with Unstoppable, Spring/Might Leap away from any fight we want to, and be able to take a healthy amount of damage, is something we must strive (particularly in PvP) to use to our advantage. The goal is to cost the opponent more then it is worth to kill you. If you 1v1 a TR or a CW that is one less TR/CW that is engaging the rest of your team. You CAN survive them, and also put a healthy amount of damage to them, and kite them away from more 'valuable' targets. We are insanely mobile when you look at Unstoppable/Sprint/Mighty Leap. To be a true asset to the team, we must utilize this to our utmost advantage.
Since I started consciously doing this for the last 6-7 levels, and focused on the Tao of Disengaging, I have found (in over 20 PvP matches) it to be quite an effective tactic. My Kill/Death ratio has plummeted... Frequently being 0-4 kills with 0-4 deaths, and always close to even. While my points, between capping/assists, putting me in the Top 2 of my team the norm, and 1st place fairly often.
Now, obviously, as I scale up in level I need to test this out as everyone's paragon path makes them better over all. I have just noticed a significant up tick in my overall performance, and I wanted to share it with all of you.
Please feel free to use this tactic, the Tao of Disengaging, as you see fit. Thus far I have been pleasantly surprised, and I feel it is a valid topic of discussion!
Since hitting 60 on my first GWF build, using the Instigator path I decided to level up a second GWF. This one primarily focused by leveling via PvP. My first GWF was a Dwarf who started out with 18str/17con/13dex/10/10/8. I wanted to be a little bit more 'min/max' with my second incarnation (yes I still have the first one active!), and went Half-Orc with 18str/18dex/12con/10/10/10.
The Half-Orc is currently level 33, and I spent a majority of the levels exclusively in PvP. I am aware that GWF is decent at lower/mid levels then it is later when everyone is 60. Until a few levels ago, I spent a good portion of my PvPing running around haphazardly trying to kill as many people as possible while capping flags whenever I could. I would end up going like... 6-10, 8-8, 6-4, 5-12, etc. Mostly about with more deaths then kills (outside of randomly stellar games) and I'd be middle of the pack points wise. Not bad, not good, but fairly even.
Later in the 20s I noticed people were able to kill me more readily, particularly TR/CW/etc. Mainly based on abilities, and such. So I took a few moments to truly look at the goals of PvPing and theorycraft the GWF strengths/weaknesses in relation to the other classes.
TR - Supreme killers, and annoying stealth.
GF - Hard as hell to kill, but can eventually be worn down.
CW -Surpeme annoyance with long range spells and teleports.
DC - Fairly hard to kill, with enough CC to also be annoying (plus Heals of course!)
GWF - Gap closers w/Sprint and Mighty Leap, fairly hard to kill with armor/HPs, can hit multiple targets, and can be immune to CC for a time with Unstoppable.
So, the commonality I see for the GWF is that we can be immune/annoying to CC, and we can close distances fast, while being tanky enough to be annoying. If we flip the closing distance fast to being able to extract oneself from a dangerous situation in time of need, we get to the heart of the Tao of Disengaging.
What I have begun to do is quite simply really... At the beginning of the queue I suggest that I (if the only GWF in the group) go to Flag 1 while the other four members of the team go to the mid Flag 2. Once I cap the first flag, I run towards the 2nd flag and scout out anyone low on health. If I think I can get in a quick hit w/Flourish/Takedown/etc. I go for it, and then disengage. Or I continue on to the opponents Flag 3, and camp it until one or two members of the opposing team come to interfere. When they do come, I am looking to make the fight last as long as possible while having my opponents use as many of their abilities as they can. Once I am down to 25% or lower hitpoints, I start paying close attention to their level of hitpoints/what they have used/if reinforcements are coming/etc. Once the determination is made that I believe my defeat is inevitable, I disengage w/Sprinting-Charging and/or Mighty Leaping away. Immediately going to the nearest Health Pot, or my teams DC (if we have one).
Disengaging can have people chase you or spend time capping the flag you were already on. Thus taking points away from the opposing team. I then heal and make a determination to return if I feel there is a single opponent I can take out (after previously damaging them), or swing back through Flag 2 to assist my teammates as necessary by 'sniping' out someone low on HPs. Once that is done, I begin to roam around again. Constantly trying to engage someone 1v1 or even 1v2 (if they are cumulatively low on HPs) thereby tying them up as the rest of my team controls the mid Flag and/or engages in battle at another flag.
The ability of the GWF to be able to ignore CC with Unstoppable, Spring/Might Leap away from any fight we want to, and be able to take a healthy amount of damage, is something we must strive (particularly in PvP) to use to our advantage. The goal is to cost the opponent more then it is worth to kill you. If you 1v1 a TR or a CW that is one less TR/CW that is engaging the rest of your team. You CAN survive them, and also put a healthy amount of damage to them, and kite them away from more 'valuable' targets. We are insanely mobile when you look at Unstoppable/Sprint/Mighty Leap. To be a true asset to the team, we must utilize this to our utmost advantage.
Since I started consciously doing this for the last 6-7 levels, and focused on the Tao of Disengaging, I have found (in over 20 PvP matches) it to be quite an effective tactic. My Kill/Death ratio has plummeted... Frequently being 0-4 kills with 0-4 deaths, and always close to even. While my points, between capping/assists, putting me in the Top 2 of my team the norm, and 1st place fairly often.
Now, obviously, as I scale up in level I need to test this out as everyone's paragon path makes them better over all. I have just noticed a significant up tick in my overall performance, and I wanted to share it with all of you.
Please feel free to use this tactic, the Tao of Disengaging, as you see fit. Thus far I have been pleasantly surprised, and I feel it is a valid topic of discussion!
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
And yes L5R for LIFE good sir! (Dan Dineen here!)
I've played, over my 2 GWFs over 100 matches of PvP thus I have had time to review my statement above. Mostly with Random Q's of course. However, I'd suggest (and really would like for people to!) try this out... Instead of simply writing it off. The Tao of Disengaging isn't flawless, hardly so, but it does give GWF's a legit way to run their character in PvP scenarios. The roll of the 'Floater' capable of causing more havoc, and thus scoring my points or stealing away point accumulation from the opposing team.
Some scenarios for you?
You Leap(Which by even having this encounter on your bar is a hindrance) away only to still be TR/CW daily'd to your death.
You Sprint away only to still be caught by X/Y/Z CC mechanic.
You pop your determination in an attempt to flee only to be chased by someone who's already mounted at the sight of your fleeing.
If you truly want to escape a fight, make sure to land a lasting memorable blow with IBS/Flourish so that they dodge/blink/slide away from you, then flee.
Statistically speaking, 'over 100 matches' is a very small sample.
Not always the case, as when you Sprint away while Unstoppable the CC is a mute point. Which is part of what I try and line up whenever available. And if they have used their CC on you, eg. Choke hold already, in reference to CW of course, you can time it correctly if you are aware of the clock ticking. Again though, you do your best to disengage on your own terms as much as possible, eg. while Unstoppable.
That isn't necessarily common at all, particularly if you are 1v1. Can and does it happen? Of course. But it isn't something that is always done, since as soon as you are out of range (which Sprint should do) you can put your own mount to effect.
Most definitely, but again I am still leveling up with the Half-Orc build, and IBS isn't available as yet. Though in testing with the Dwarf GWF, IBS/Flourish are superb for that last oomph...
It is a solid baseline though, which is important. Though of course 'statistics' would be hard t postulate in the PvP arena considering it's hectic ebb and low nature. It was stated to give a sense that I have not simply played 10 matches and claim this to be the Holy Grail, that's all mi amigo!
Of course smart opponents will be better then inattentive opponents. However I believe, thus far, this to be a valid tactic and one GWF's should be aware of to intentionally implement. In PvP we will not lead the game in Kills like CW/TR, nor are we uber hard to kill like DCs can be. However, we have the ability to ignore CC completely at times, and if a fight is going against us we need to use that advantage. One should not, as a GWF, run into a group of people and hack away until your dead. Dying doesn't help your team. However, being a highly mobile off tank/off DPS platform is of great use when you are the only GWF on a team.
Then I head to 2. Opportunity target if one presents itself, otherwise slink towards 3.
Never be afraid to run away.
Know where the potions are. Know where they can be.
Use your tools! Portable Altars and Glory Potions. They will NOT save your life. Don't expect them to. Glory potions have a 2-minute cooldown and only last 5 seconds. But they can patch you up while you wait for the opposition to send someone to deal with you.
Bravery 3 might help with this as well. 7.5% damage reduction and 15% movespeed. I could think of worse ways to spend a Feature slot for tanking.
I can see Bravery and Steel Grace being used... SG is just stupid good. I'll test out Bravery once I have the extra points to fill it out, good suggestion. Let me know how it goes if you start using it mi amigo!
In addition to the disengage, it is very easy for GWF to sprint behind pillars, or leap around corners. I do this to get a reset of skills-- as with GWF, we are useless without encounters. Once I get my takedown back up after cooldown, I hop back on to the CW. Often times I can hold 3 at a point by just running around and having them chase me.
With a capping system like this for pvp, I believe a GWF's main gift to their team is to distract as many enemy players as possible (similar to the GF)-- but differs from GF in that we have to give up on caps more quickly to move to the next place. If i see two incoming when I am alone, and I know they are going to burn me down and I have no where to hide, I will simply run past them and loop back around and try again after they leave, or move on to the next point. Basically, playing GWF requires backdooring.
Bravery has lended itself amazingly to the Tao of Disengagement strategy outlined above. My current spec is:
At Wills: WMS, Wicked Strike (Both at Rank 3)
Encounter Powers: Takedown, Flourish, IBS (All at Rank 3)
Daily's: Slam, Cresendo (Both Rank 3)
Seems to be working out extremely well, and I find myself in the top scorers in almost every game I have played. Never been ranked lower then 2nd on my own team in the past 10 PvP matches also.
So I run around distracting 2 people the entire match, and when one would give up and go fight at a point I'd chase them and end up killing them.
One super fun trick is you can juke with Might Leap, jump off a ledge and leap back onto it mid air and make the other person jump off.
With all the little tricks you can do and sprint it actually make GWF feel really skillful in PvP. Rather than running around facerolling with my CW. I wish all the classes felt this way TBH. =/
That can happen, though I've found it more likely that you draw aggro as much as possible from the opposing team. The more time spent (futiliy) chasing/focusing on you, the better your team will do overall.
That was so fun to do at the early levels, oh man I had people going "WTF!?!? A GWF just went invisible!"... Obviously they didn't see the Leap, and I laughed for a few minutes when I saw that in Zone chat!
I am using the Flourish->Takedown->Indomitable strategy to great effect with a Recovery-focused build. With 2 pieces of Vigilant Warlord set and 2 pieces of Bladestorm set (with a couple lvl 6 Silver Enchants) I am up to about 3.5k Recovery, giving me about 25% Cooldown Reduction. We also get that delicious feat that converts 25% of Recovery to Armor Penetration in the Destroyer path, which is fantastic for PVP.
I think Steel Grace would be phenomenal on any other class, but I have found that I generally have Unstoppable up anyhow within 1 second of wanting it, so I don't think it is worth the passive slot. Instead, I use Steel Defense (the invulnerability one) which lends itself to this strategy of stalling/disrupting/escaping very well.
One thing I would like to stress though is the choice most players make between our two stunlock daily powers: Crescendo and Savage Advance. While yes Crescendo is a bit harder-hitting than Savage Advance, I have tried both out via respec and personally found Advance to be FAR more useful for this type of strategy. Not only does it splash a bit of the CC onto any surrounding enemies that happened to be in the area, but that displacement of the primary target has a pretty good distance which I've found invaluable. Savage Advance -> Takedown -> Crescendo -> Indomitable Battle Strike makes Clerics especially cry, but it is good for simply taking the fight away from a point you've already captured, getting the team some more points. I also have yet to be interrupted while using Savage Advance without the cooldown being reset, yet have found myself having to activate Unstoppable before Crescendo sometimes to avoid it being canceled by a nearby Control Wizard.
I'm glad to see others enjoying this strategy in PVP though. Not only is it fun to pull off, but it really is quite effective even if your point total and kill/death ratio doesn't always reflect this. I am finding I hate high-level PVE content as a GWF, but I honestly feel slightly overpowered in PVP with our incredible mobility, durability, frequent immunity to CC, and stunlock potential.