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Strategy, what is that? The bad of que-ing as a cleric
deahamlet
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 191 Bounty Hunter
I'd love to know what other clerics do because I'm starting to suspect level 60 content is going to be very much of the same craziness.
The last two dungeons I have done, Throne and Gray Wolf, the parties had major issues. Of note, I don't think either parties had a wizard meaning the problems with ads were multiplied many times.
In Thorne I was wearing Sooth because we had a guardian fighter and he couldn't hold even the boss from me most of the time. In most of the dungeon. I noticed he had problems in the beginning so I put Sooth on just because of him. I had my cat out instead of my tank golem because... again... we had a GF in party, don't want to mess with his gameplay. So that was a thing, but I guess that wouldn't have been SO bad if it wasn't for the fact that the party did not understand you cannot ignore ads. It simply does not matter if tank holds boss or not if nobody attacks ads... they will swarm to the cleric without fail because that's the only person on their aggro meter. I had to use the greater stone of health on the last attempt in order to kite the 3 huge boss-like ads and the boss jumping on me. Mind you I didn't even get quest completion, that dungeon hates me. On the last attempt they did at least try to go after the ads some of the time and I had a guildie with me who also went after them.
In Gray Wolf it was... stupidity. They kept wiping and their bright idea was to IGNORE ads. I tried my best to heal but most of the time I could not get any divine power up nor had time to do anything because I was kiting and drinking pots. By the end most of them got better dodging the AOEs (instead of sitting in them, what you think I can heal you through the boss' red circle attacks?!?!) so only a couple of deaths while I was kiting everything in existence. Endless amounts of pots because thank you Cryptic for nerf-ing my self-heal. Other than last boss most encounters went better because I was wiser and had my tank golem out. THAT is what kept most stuff off of me, not the GF. Sad state of affairs.
I could have worn sooth and threat reduction up the wazoo, when they do not touch the ads, they chase me. Period. That simple.
BECAUSE they had no wizard and they made the only other AOE person kite, they also had no AOEs to wipe ads quicker. I think with a wizard or two instead of two GWFs it would have been smoother. Or maybe all they needed was to get their heads out of their behinds and deal with ads and not try to bum-rush the boss.
Fine, rush rush rush the dungeon, but wake the hell up at bosses. I don't think bum-rushing the endgame bosses is going to pan out all that well for you. I had half the mind to kite the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> right back at them. Too bad I've played healers for too long to bring myself to kill someone on purpose.
So clerics... what do you do when your party thinks bum-rushing the boss is strategy? Are we going to be like every other MMO and keep just to friend lists and guildmates? At least in DDO and Tera it got to a point where I was so geared and prepared and built that I could carry in most easy-ish content (not the hard content though)... I don't foresee that happening in this game.
The last two dungeons I have done, Throne and Gray Wolf, the parties had major issues. Of note, I don't think either parties had a wizard meaning the problems with ads were multiplied many times.
In Thorne I was wearing Sooth because we had a guardian fighter and he couldn't hold even the boss from me most of the time. In most of the dungeon. I noticed he had problems in the beginning so I put Sooth on just because of him. I had my cat out instead of my tank golem because... again... we had a GF in party, don't want to mess with his gameplay. So that was a thing, but I guess that wouldn't have been SO bad if it wasn't for the fact that the party did not understand you cannot ignore ads. It simply does not matter if tank holds boss or not if nobody attacks ads... they will swarm to the cleric without fail because that's the only person on their aggro meter. I had to use the greater stone of health on the last attempt in order to kite the 3 huge boss-like ads and the boss jumping on me. Mind you I didn't even get quest completion, that dungeon hates me. On the last attempt they did at least try to go after the ads some of the time and I had a guildie with me who also went after them.
In Gray Wolf it was... stupidity. They kept wiping and their bright idea was to IGNORE ads. I tried my best to heal but most of the time I could not get any divine power up nor had time to do anything because I was kiting and drinking pots. By the end most of them got better dodging the AOEs (instead of sitting in them, what you think I can heal you through the boss' red circle attacks?!?!) so only a couple of deaths while I was kiting everything in existence. Endless amounts of pots because thank you Cryptic for nerf-ing my self-heal. Other than last boss most encounters went better because I was wiser and had my tank golem out. THAT is what kept most stuff off of me, not the GF. Sad state of affairs.
I could have worn sooth and threat reduction up the wazoo, when they do not touch the ads, they chase me. Period. That simple.
BECAUSE they had no wizard and they made the only other AOE person kite, they also had no AOEs to wipe ads quicker. I think with a wizard or two instead of two GWFs it would have been smoother. Or maybe all they needed was to get their heads out of their behinds and deal with ads and not try to bum-rush the boss.
Fine, rush rush rush the dungeon, but wake the hell up at bosses. I don't think bum-rushing the endgame bosses is going to pan out all that well for you. I had half the mind to kite the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> right back at them. Too bad I've played healers for too long to bring myself to kill someone on purpose.
So clerics... what do you do when your party thinks bum-rushing the boss is strategy? Are we going to be like every other MMO and keep just to friend lists and guildmates? At least in DDO and Tera it got to a point where I was so geared and prepared and built that I could carry in most easy-ish content (not the hard content though)... I don't foresee that happening in this game.
Post edited by deahamlet on
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I've had similar challenges with groups, and I end up spending most fights 'tanking'. I make liberal use of chains, dodge and push-back and make the best of it...
I was trying to be nice and loaded up like Forge and HW... but I guess I should just load up chains and such if I'm going to be dealing with ads and they can just pot their way to victory. It's disappointing to hear you've also experienced the same...
Part of the problem is also that many people have the WoW mentality where healers could just outheal damage, even if people stood in stuff on the floor, in breath, in fumes, etc., at least in the leveling and entry end game content. Neverwinter is very new, so I think people will eventually adapt and learn how the game works. You could start adding people who you notice playing well to your friends list and maybe group with them.
This and trying to run with a good guild will help very much. I have played with a couple of the Older Gamers, and they definitely know what they are doing. So hats off to them, and they get a definite recommendation.
it's the nature of the pug. i'm considering going with gf now to prevent such things from happening but not to clear on what kinds of tools the class has for aoe threat management.
healing threat is so high in this game that even a 20% reduction power and further reductions in feats you will pull all of the adds to you even after a cw or two has aoe'd them as soon as you drop arcane sigil on the boss.
in addition the cleric MUST dps in order to build divinity to use more than arcane sigil and a simple regen. this is even more threat.
1) You need to accept that as a cleric if you aren't ready to deal with off-tanking adds you are going to fail. Adds spawn constantly and there's no way anyone will ever be able to aggro them all and keep you safe if you're squishy.
2) They are called "Encounter Powers" because you can and should change them for some encounters. The final boss of CoK Healing Word was useful. The rest of the dungeon it's useless.
3) Once you get Astral Shield things change, a LOT. It is hands down our best heal/buff... assuming people stand in it.
Now I'm not saying there's no strategy involved. For the run I just did the 2 TRs DPS'ed the boss and I kept Astral Shield on them. The GWF and CW ran around killing adds and I tried to Astral Seal their targets and Healing Word as needed. Otherwise I spammed Sacred Flame on adds and tried not to die. My other ability was Sun Burst which served me well throughout the instance but on the final boss it wasn't so useful. I will probably switch it out for something else in the future. There's too many adds for Break the Spirit to be useful on that encounter (great for aggro management btw), and extra healing wasn't needed so I'd probably run Divine Glow for extra dps on the boss to make it faster.
Also, I didn't run with Sooth at all and had no aggro problems at all except on adds that just spawned and/or no one had hit yet, which unfortunately happens all the time on bosses which is why you NEED to be prepared to off-tank.
Are you trying to convey important info (who will deal with adds? Who will tank?) before the fight starts? or are you expecting the pick-up queue players to be psychic? A little communication can go a long way.
was this a queue'd or pre-form?
lack of guardian fighters?
I do not expect anyone to be psychic, I told them they need to deal with some ads. I can kite 2-3 boss type mobs but I cannot kite 5+ archers plus 4+ boss mobs plus mini-ads... It's just not happening, especially in a group that cannot keep themselves alive without me healing. That many mobs does not leave any time to cast anything but Astral.
I like that you assumed I didn't tell them or try to discuss strategy.
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I ran another dungeon with a guildie and while I was off-tanking ads, ALL party members were helping to reduce the amount of ads.
I found that:
1. Having my tank companion out helps tremendously. He even helps pull some weight off the GF so they take less damage. But mostly he does help keep stuff off of me at least the boss.
2. Having a GF that can at least make it so the boss isn't chasing me also helps tremendously. GF need to learn that their job is to keep on the boss at all times. I did not see any sign that anyone has any ability to PULL mobs off of me.
3. The idea is not to pull ads off of me but to thin out the herds so they are manageable. It helped that either GWF or rogue were busying themselves killing some ads.
4. Loading DPS abilities with my built helped more than me putting down buffs or using heals. Sun burst, heals on crits, Healing Word and Astral on everything helped heal. It also kept me alive. For one, I got rid of the mini-ads and archers (they hurt like a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>). For two, it made the fight faster. For three, it kept my power up. For four, it kept up those crits that heal. Having Daunting Light and Flame Strike helped make it all manageable.
In the end, the fact is that a cleric is not going to be a huge amount of healing while they're kiting everything in existence. The fewer things they are kiting (just kiting 2-3 boss mobs instead of them plus 10 minis is a huge difference), the more they can put back that seal and do a burst or some other ability.
We shall see how things go. I guess I can live with keeping my cleric for friends and guildies just like in every other mmo.
I hate tanking so in the long run I might even give up on the class. If I wanted tanking, I'd have rolled a GF as advertised.
OOhhhhh u are actually healing your group? why? DC's are not healers, they did not make us to be heal bots. So don't play one. Keep your defensive spells up, use your attack spells, and toss some seals around lightly. Everyone has HP pots, let them use them. OR best thing, DON"T PUG AS A CLERIC !!!
<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is different in a good group where people are there to play, and not just loot. Only do dungeons with friends/guildies who wish to learn to play and want to work together. PUGS are for nabs, so play your cleric as a nab.
best advice I have for ya.
PUGS = DON"T HEAL
Friends/guildies = u can heal
As I suspected... just like every other MMO. LOL
My build and usual spells are built so I DPS and my feats are what heal the party aside from a burst and astral seal on things. My crits heal, my heals cleanse, my attacks heal, etc. But I was being NICE and trying to put in healing things like Forge, etc... but turns out that I don't get to use it much while kiting everything anyway and it doesn't help ME either. So away it went! Also the ground buff sounds nice, but having flaming strike to kill mobs and heavily damage a boss-like add is much more useful to me. If I'm going to be kiting anyway, away goes everything but Burst (cause I like it), Astral Seal and healing word (again last one more for me and the tank).
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To everyone reporting your experiences in guild groups... no offense (which means I'm probably going to offend) but it's WAY different. Guildies tend to try to help eachother, even having ONE person with me that I know helps tremendously... so let's not compare, okay?
If I was running with friends, I'd definitely adjust my play to my friends. But I wanted to know about pugs. And from the responses pug versus friends is like night and day.
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When everyone just ignores ads and bum-rushes the boss, it reminds me of GW2 with the pugs dying over and over rushing back in to kill the boss before it resets... It's stupid and boring and I don't get why anyone likes playing this way.
1: I pull a power trip and don't step into the portal until they agree to focus adds down first.
2: I stop letting them waste my time and leave.
Although I haven't had to do either of those yet; most people are reasonable when you explain that you can't heal with adds on you and that they won't live unless the adds die. This will become less of an issue as you get higher in level as well, because players will be more experienced.
How this pertains to this thread is simply that I found a spec that works wonderfully. I keep people alive just fine, I don't have to kite around like a nut job and it's relatively PUG friendly.
The short version is Astral Shield + Hallowed Ground. Go deep in the middle path for paragon points and forget the silly notion of not having aggro. Just think "I R TANK!" and you'll do a lot better. Anyway, video is worth more than anything I could write. Tomorrow I'll do a couple vids, one on powers, one on feats, and another on my build specifically where I will respec and build it up from scratch so people can level that way and not have to respec while still having what they need to level effectively.
Note: All my videos will end up in a new thread I will create later tonight and I will be happy to answer questions here or there (once it's up).
That's nice but I abhor everyone "having to" run the same spec.
I guess this is really just another holy trinity game and as always... why have three different paragon trees if everyone has to pick the healing one? I like the first tree, it's fun, it's complex, it's interesting. You have to get creative to pump out heals but that's what makes it fun. If we get back to "run healbot spec or gtfo" I just have to embrace that I'm sick and tired of the holy trinity and this game has nothing on Tera regarding making a heal-only class fun... and run a different class at end-game.
But to make it clear... when the party focuses on SOME of the ads to keep it manageable AND I use my DPS moves to help with that... much smoother than when I try to just blast healing powers at the party. Yes, this means they have to dodge or block red circles. Yes, this means once in a while you gotta use a pot cause I'm killing 6 archers over there. Yes, this means healing companions might be a good idea regardless. Yes, this means I gotta bring my own tank to the party if I want to save my behind. But whenever I blasted heals at the party, not only did I get EVERYthing on me and could not keep alive very well (due to lacking AOEs to kill anything) but overall resulted in less healing to the party, period.
And to be perfectly honest... parties without a wizard suck. Give me some wizards over a GF any day, LE SIGH.
He ran the heroic dungeons without a tank. He was the tank.
Yeah, either the approach to this MMO with it's action based combat is by design trying to change players way of playing the game OR the threat/aggro mechanics are broken currently.
I personally found that a balanced group tends to do a lot better & if the CW/TR/GWF help to thin down the weaker mobs as the appear instead of just nuking the boss, then the fights go a lot easier.
So as CW I do what I can and use the CC that is useless on the boss on the adds to get them off peoples backs and hopefully get the tank to pick them up. I imagine this trend will continue later on, but makes me glad that I play my cleric with two friends of mine who both have a history in MMOs and some raiding experience too.
CC or DPSing the weaker mobs is just easier. I don't think the GF has any ability to pull entire mobs off of a cleric or DPS wizard... we have either high healing aggro or huge aggro from AOE. I have played raids before where the tank holds the main boss, and others deal with the ads. In one raid DPS goes and kills ads, in another the casters either insta-kill or CC the ads... I've even played a dungeon where I kite ads in the first section but that game makes that POSSIBLE. I pull the mobs as they appear, jump on my horse, and run around with the mobs... and get off just to pull again. But this part is 5 minutes tops and I am RARELY in danger if DPS is high and knows to burn the last percentage. In Neverwinter I have stamina, I cannot get on horse, so I am in permanent danger running around with that many ads on. Also note, that in the dungeons and raids that had kiting in the past (either by healer or casters) we are kiting or CCing melee combatants. You cannot "kite" when it's 6+ archers. Those things unkilled will just take so much damage out of the person they are focusing on that they need to be tank spec like and eventually even they have to kill some of the archers as only a greater health stone can keep up with 6+ archers plinking away at your health.
I found that groups with no GF I was actually kiting and tanking a lot less than with a GF.
So you're telling me that he's just a cleric tank instead of a GF tank? I have zero interest in being a tank, period. And I can also tank on my priest in Tera in the lower dungeons that we farm (level 58), that doesn't make it all that special. We also run with no tank, people even run top endgame with zipo tank at the main boss... we also do shortmans and all sorts of odd things. It does not make Tera different than every other MMO.
DDO has been doing dungeons with no tank and mucho whining from everyone that they are useless in dungeons as tanks for many years. Only thing we use tanks in is some raids and even the latest raids have been... odd to say the least with their disregard for tanking. Who is really tanking Lolth? All the melee dps really. And all the casters CC, kite or kill ads in that raid... But mind you DDO doesn't insult you with horrid self-healing so you can actually kite if that's your job. But most times you're kiting through your DPS spells to thin them down.
Does that make DDO a not holy trinity game?
Neverwinter isn't that different so far, just some weird DnD mixture with GW2 insanity bosses (still better than GW2, I will give them that).
I 100% agree... if the dps help to thin out, kill the minis (though to be honest Daunting Light does a fast job of those) and definitely kill the archers... WAY WAY WAY smoother. Still some kiting but I actually get to sneak in some heals there, keep Astral Seal on boss, etc. When they ignore ads completely... I kite, they die, and eventually I have to die too so we can restart. I can't even help get anyone up cause I'd just die from sitting still with all those ads.
I guess we shall see how things pan out... I don't mind new ways of thinking, but I mind people not using their little grey cells to think and I also don't like tanking :P.
the game is set, the monsters know what they're doing and when.
A VAST MAJORITY OF THE TIME a pug is basically a bunch of fat guys from an apartment complex, going play against the miami heat.
you can't "point out" that "oh, looks like it's going to be holy trinity all over again and we're stuck with it" later in the thread, when you start the thread out talking about how you're, essentially, trying to be a "pure healer".
Wait, what?
I'm a DPS spec counting on debuffs and crits to heal people alongside some buffs. I usually carry one healing encounter and Astral Seal. I tried having mostly healing encounters and that was a complete flop, but even that I still had one DPS encounter and my at-wills and I was DPS-ing like a son-of-a...
I don't want to be a pure healer, but I don't want to be a TANK. I hate tanking. It's not my calling. I have played pure healers, I live with it if a game is great enough. What I LIKE is Favorite Soul kind of healer that is a damage dealer as well as a strong healer. I like damage and healing casting classes. Another example would be casters in the PSO universe, same idea, you cannot live off of their heals if you suck at dodging and evading, but they will help out and the caster class reaches the highest heals in game as every class can take healing spells but cannot max them out to top level unlike caster.
I just don't want to tank. I'm fine putting out DPS, I like it, ALONGSIDE healing. That's thrill right there. Running around kiting does not allow either healing nor DPS. So I gave up and basically did minimal healing and mostly AOE damage cause most people just did not grasp that you cannot completely ignore ads. Kiting sucks nonetheless when 4-5 elites are on you and tanking is just not my cup of tea.
Hope that made things clear for you.
Also, don't insult people you don't even know.
the action combat part of the game is held back by animation rooting. it's hard to heal and move as a cleric when every ability you cast roots you in place for a second or even longer. tanking in this game is basically sitting in astral shield and any class can do it atm.