Best secondary Ability Score: STR or CHA?

jhozam · March 2013

Hi all,
From the caracter sheet panel, listed below the decriptons of the two secondary Ability Scores for the Rogue (for every point above 10):
Strenght -> Damage bonus (+1%), Stamina regen (+1%), DoT damage resistance (+1%)
Charisma -> Combat advantage damage (+1%), Deflection Chance (+1%), Companion stats bonus (+1%)
What do you think is better to increase for the best Rogue build?
In my opinion More STR = more damage always yes (even if you are not in stealth stance), but more CHA = more damage during Combat Advantage = more action points generation = more daylies = more DPS. Is this right?

tsurueldul · March 2013

jhozam wrote: »

Hi all,
From the caracter sheet panel, listed below the decriptons of the two secondary Ability Scores for the Rogue (for every point above 10):
Strenght -> Damage bonus (+1%), Stamina regen (+1%), DoT damage resistance (+1%)
Charisma -> Combat advantage damage (+1%), Deflection Chance (+1%), Companion stats bonus (+1%)
What do you think is better to increase for the best Rogue build?
In my opinion More STR = more damage always yes (even if you are not in stealth stance), but more CHA = more damage during Combat Advantage = more action points generation = more daylies = more DPS. Is this right?

CHA for PVE. STR for PVP

sneakycheeses · March 2013

tsurueldul wrote: »

CHA for PVE. STR for PVP

Seems about right. It's more difficult to get a combat advantage in PvP and you can't use your companions either, so Charisma issort of useless in PvP. But strength gives bonus damage, tankiness, and more regen on your rolls which you'll be using a lot in PvP.

fifix92 · March 2013

I would even say that STR is the unofficial main ability score. 1% Damage > 1% Crit, as a Scoundrel specced rogue is less crit-dependent (don't know yet for the other specs).

So roll a 16 DEX, 16 STR, 12 CHA!

jhozam · March 2013

sneakycheeses wrote: »

Seems about right. It's more difficult to get a combat advantage in PvP and you can't use your companions either, so Charisma issort of useless in PvP. But strength gives bonus damage, tankiness, and more regen on your rolls which you'll be using a lot in PvP.

I didn't test the PVP, but why is so difficult to get combat advantage? Cant we use it during the stealth stance? I don't know the stealth mechanics in PVP...

warbr · March 2013

Ya I also dont know, I was thinkng in make a Drow rogue cuz of the Dex and Cha bonus, but I also like STR cuz I love to pvp.

Do you guys really think that CHA will be that useless for PvP?

themangroth · March 2013

if you had to choose between str and cha, I'd say str is superior. +1% damage is always applicable, vs +1% combat advantage which is situatonal.

As for action point generation, it seems more like you generate a certain amount of points per strike rather than per damage dealt. And each class gets rewarded more action points for playing a certain way. For instance, guardian fighters get lots of action points for blocking, and clerics get lots for healing or using divinity, and rogues get lots for attacking from stealth or with combat advantage(and even moreso if you select the appropriate feats)

If you're in stealth (which automatically grants combat advantage) and hit something with a full deulist's flurry, you can get like 35-50% action points from one attack. If you chain your abilities just right, you can start a fight with almost zero action points, go through 3 stealth cycles, and have full action points before the 3rd cycle ends, hit lurker's assault and maintain it for a decent amount of time, and by the time it ends, your encounter cooldowns are ready again, and have another 3 stealth cycles, and straight back into lurker's assault.

I only managed to pull that off a couple times with all the dodging out of splat zones and such, but the dungeon I was in when it all kinda clicked, I did like 850K damage, and the nearest dps did like 530K

warbr · March 2013

What about make it balanced, like u get a race that have STR bonus and when u get lv 10 u put in CHA, or get a race that have CHA bonus and put in STR when u get lv 10, something like that?

fifix92 · March 2013

warbr wrote: »

What about make it balanced, like u get a race that have STR bonus and when u get lv 10 u put in CHA, or get a race that have CHA bonus and put in STR when u get lv 10, something like that?

Nah, like themangroth said, it's better to play STR, as 1% dmg is applicable in every situation.

koje · March 2013

I agree on Str > Cha and maybe even better than Dex (which is part of the problem with the way they changed ability scores from 4E).

However, since the character creator forces you to make your primary ability the hightest, I plan to roll the 16, 16, 12 array and go with a Half-Orc for +2 in Dex & Str to start with 18 in each and add to those as I level. My CHA will be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> but I'd rather have the flat damage boost all the time over the CA only boost even in PVE. Besides, low CHA for a Half-Orc just seems right

prunetracy · March 2013

We'd need someone to research how combat advantage damage is calculated to know for sure which is better for damage.

Here's some possible formula with implications for each: (these all assume you're getting CA, as not having CA means str is clearly better)

If the STR bonus is determined before CA is taken into account:
ca_damage = (base + str_bonus) + (ca_bonus + cha_bonus): CHA bonus is additive, STR and CHA are equal
ca_damage = (base + str_bonus) + (ca_bonus * cha_bonus): CHA bonus is multiplicative on CA bonus only, STR is stronger (unlikely)
ca_damage = [(base + str_bonus) + (ca_bonus)] * cha_bonus : CHA bonus is multiplicative on all damage during CA, CHA is stronger

If the STR bonus is determined after CA is taken into account:
ca_damage = str_bonus * [base + (ca_bonus + cha_bonus)] : CHA is additive with CA, STR is stronger
ca_damage = str_bonus * [base + (ca_bonus * cha_bonus)] : CHA is multiplicative on CA bonus only, STR is stronger (unlikely)
ca_damage = str_bonus * [base + ca_bonus] * cha_bonus : CHA is multiplicative on all CA damage, STR = CHA.

It's also possible that the bonus from STR isn't applied at all during CA (if the game checks whether you're in CA or not, and uses STR vs. CHA as your damage bonus accordingly), in which case CHA is obviously better.

If CHA is better than STR during CA, then you'd have to weigh how often you're getting CA into which stat you prefer. If CHA isn't better than STR during CA, STR is always better for damage, and you should focus on that if that's what you care about.

If you care about the other effects of CHA and STR, you'll have to weigh those benefits accordingly.

warbr · March 2013

Ya I wanted to make my drow, but everyting is telling me that Half-orc will be better =/

prunetracy · March 2013

warbr wrote: »

Ya I wanted to make my drow, but everyting is telling me that Half-orc will be better =/

Only very slightly, if at all. We haven't seen the actual numbers for the Drow racials yet (not talking about ability mods). Whatever the difference might be between 2 STR and 2 CHA, it isn't a lot. It's a small enough number to be absorbed in the RNG, and is greatly eclipsed by the player's skill in maximizing damage and combat uptime.

So if you want a Drow, make a Drow.

themangroth · March 2013

prunetracy wrote: »

Only very slightly, if at all. We haven't seen the actual numbers for the Drow racials yet (not talking about ability mods). Whatever the difference might be between 2 STR and 2 CHA, it isn't a lot. It's a small enough number to be absorbed in the RNG, and is greatly eclipsed by the player's skill in maximizing damage and combat uptime.

So if you want a Drow, make a Drow.

This. The stat bonus difference between Drow having +Cha, and Half-Orcs having +Str won't be game changing. It comes down to flavor. I detest elves, and especially drow because of all the legolas/drizzt fanboys out there, so half-orc was a no brainer.

Besides, the way the trickster rogue plays reminds me almost of a swashbuckler or melee swift hunter (I still play pre-Bo9S 3.5e), so half-orc isn't all that blasphemous when you look at it that way.

warbr · March 2013

prunetracy wrote: »

Only very slightly, if at all. We haven't seen the actual numbers for the Drow racials yet (not talking about ability mods). Whatever the difference might be between 2 STR and 2 CHA, it isn't a lot. It's a small enough number to be absorbed in the RNG, and is greatly eclipsed by the player's skill in maximizing damage and combat uptime.

So if you want a Drow, make a Drow.

Ya I will think better about that for sure when I can actually check the Drow.

jhozam · March 2013

prunetracy wrote: »

We'd need someone to research how combat advantage damage is calculated to know for sure which is better for damage.

Here's some possible formula with implications for each: (these all assume you're getting CA, as not having CA means str is clearly better)

If the STR bonus is determined before CA is taken into account:
ca_damage = (base + str_bonus) + (ca_bonus + cha_bonus): CHA bonus is additive, STR and CHA are equal
ca_damage = (base + str_bonus) + (ca_bonus * cha_bonus): CHA bonus is multiplicative on CA bonus only, STR is stronger (unlikely)
ca_damage = [(base + str_bonus) + (ca_bonus)] : CHA bonus is multiplicative on all damage during CA, CHA is stronger

If the STR bonus is determined after CA is taken into account:
ca_damage = str_bonus * [base + (ca_bonus + cha_bonus)] : CHA is additive with CA, STR is stronger
ca_damage = str_bonus * [base + (ca_bonus * cha_bonus)] : CHA is multiplicative on CA bonus only, STR is stronger (unlikely)
ca_damage = str_bonus * [base + ca_bonus] * cha_bonus : CHA is multiplicative on all CA damage, STR = CHA.

It's also possible that the bonus from STR isn't applied at all during CA (if the game checks whether you're in CA or not, and uses STR vs. CHA as your damage bonus accordingly), in which case CHA is obviously better.

If CHA is better than STR during CA, then you'd have to weigh how often you're getting CA into which stat you prefer. If CHA isn't better than STR during CA, STR is always better for damage, and you should focus on that if that's what you care about.

If you care about the other effects of CHA and STR, you'll have to weigh those benefits accordingly.

Nice math! I hope we can soon know how the damage will be calculated to do the precise considerations

kimoy8520 · March 2013

Wait, how do you know that you are on combat advantage?

quorforged · March 2013

kimoy8520 wrote: »

Wait, how do you know that you are on combat advantage?

Orange damage numbers.

Also, if you look at your target, the circle under their feat indicates combat advantage:

It shows what angle you should be attacking from to gain combat advantage from flanking, and that area glows purple if you are positioned correctly.

Or, if you inherently get combat advantage from something like Dazing strike, the whole circle turns purple.

kimoy8520 · March 2013

How about the critical damage? And those sword icon beside the number?

quorforged · March 2013

kimoy8520 wrote: »

How about the critical damage? And those sword icon beside the number?

Crits are the lightning bolts. I don't know what the sword is.

jendryn · March 2013

I was under the impression that the sword indicated combat advantage, not orange text. I played around with this mostly on the GWF I leveled by moving in and out of flanking positioning.

As to race selection, keep in mind the relative strength of the human racial; namely, the 3 additional heroic feat points, which will be spent most effectively in the fourth tier of heroic feats. With it, you can gain 12% additional stealth duration if you opt for the 9% additional at-will damage by default, or vice versa. Essentially, you will be able to have the full 20% additional duration on stealth as well as +9% at-will damage on enemies not targeting you.

Of course, you can distribute those 3 feat points elsewhere if you so desire, but I am quite certain the above option is the most viable strictly in terms of DPS.

As has been stated previously, this only matters if you care to min-max over picking whichever race suits you best. At the end of the day, racials will play a small role, and you should go with your first choice!

kotli · March 2013

Orange is not CA unless you think a GWF attacking from the front has CA. Dunno what what symbol or colour is CA really need a manual or guide with this info.

sephere · March 2013

jendryn wrote: »

I was under the impression that the sword indicated combat advantage, not orange text. I played around with this mostly on the GWF I leveled by moving in and out of flanking positioning.

As to race selection, keep in mind the relative strength of the human racial; namely, the 3 additional heroic feat points, which will be spent most effectively in the fourth tier of heroic feats. With it, you can gain 12% additional stealth duration if you opt for the 9% additional at-will damage by default, or vice versa. Essentially, you will be able to have the full 20% additional duration on stealth as well as +9% at-will damage on enemies not targeting you.

Of course, you can distribute those 3 feat points elsewhere if you so desire, but I am quite certain the above option is the most viable strictly in terms of DPS.

As has been stated previously, this only matters if you care to min-max over picking whichever race suits you best. At the end of the day, racials will play a small role, and you should go with your first choice!

I kinda thought it was strange that human feats seemed so much more useful than the others, because of extra feats,
but maybe they make up for it by looking almost boring/normal in comparison?

_____
In reference to the op's secondary stat STR/CHA and which is better,
it's simple,
choose STR if you're not going to focus on stealth and want to melee more normally (but rogue style normal),
and choose CHA if you want the deflection and stealth/backstabbing style focus (the more sneaky style)

That's how I specced in the game anyway (I chose sneaky CHA style) and it seemed to work well,
but that's cause sneak is what I focused on feat/skill-wise,
if you choose more melee durable feat-skill-wise, STR should work equally well for it
Just depends on what you want to focus on with skills and feats

---
if you're not sure about what gives your class combat advantage, I'm pretty sure that hovering over the dice-looking symbol (the one that fills up in order to use your two special abilities),
gives a tooltip that tells you,
allthough it's not very detailed, though
(could be wrong about that though)

valadil · March 2013

I would think that Str is better than CHR unless you are spending more than half of your time in combat advantage (eg behind the mob or in stealth). Not only does STR increase your overall dmg, it also makes you take a little less dmg and allows you to dodge more often, thus helping avoid those pesky red circles of death.

Best secondary Ability Score: STR or CHA?

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