Question to guild leaders re: your policy toward kill-stealing

hustin1 · July 2022

Tonight I had some rogue jump into my fight, pop a daily, and steal my kills for perhaps the hundredth time since I started playing. As a guild leader it got me thinking about an appropriate policy toward players who are toxic in this manner. My policy is the first time you get a warning, and the next time you're terminated. I'd like to hear from other guild leaders about what you all think, though. How do you handle players who do this to other players? More broadly, how do you deal with toxic players?

masteryoda · July 2022

I don't understand the issue, you don't loose anything from someone else coming along and getting the last hit on something, so why does it matter, why is it toxic? is it really worth getting confrontational over not getting the last hit on a mob in a game where it doesn't really matter

hustin1 · July 2022

I'm talking about getting in a fight with quest mobs and someone pops a daily to one-shot several of them before you can do significant damage to them. You wind up not getting credit. It's happened to me dozens of times.

Since I posted this, twice more people rushed in to try to steal kill credit from fights that I had only just started. It's very easy to lose kill credit to such a person when you're playing a healer. I decided to switch alts and just do some influence runs. I'm so mad that if someone even looks at me cross-eyed I'll bite his head off.

orangenee · July 2022

This is isn't Call of Duty, just move on to the next mob. Or change instance if it really bothers you.

It's an MMO, people are doing the same things you're doing......just quicker in this case it seems.

Have you tried talking to them about it?

plasticbat · July 2022

This is not toxic enough to lead most people to bother with it. And you expect Guild leader will take any stranger's words for it, and then spend time to communicate with the 'toxic' player even if somehow he/she want to bother with it.

Of course, that assumes you find out who the guild leader is and this guild leader is actually still active.

By the way, Cleric has a DPS setting. My cleric cleans up mobs faster than few other classes.

If you are talking about your own guild, why not just talk to your guild leader directly?

hustin1 · July 2022

I ran six alts through Sharandar weeklies last night. At no time was there more than one instance. I always switch to a lightly-populated instance as soon as I can. There was no option last night.

I'll spell out the scenario from last night that really got my blood boiling. I'm running 17 alts through Sharandar and this *exact* scenario has happened at least four times in the past two weeks.

- You engage a group of enemies that you need for your quest and you've got opening hits on a couple of them.
- A rogue runs up on his mount, pops a daily, one-shots *everything*, jumps on his mount, and rides off.
- You get zero kill credit, even for the enemies you managed to hit.

Now when you need six or even eight of an enemy and the little **** just one-shot three of them, do you think that pisses me off? You'd better believe it does. This happens *repeatedly*. I'm having to pop dailies as opening shots not because I remotely need them to kill enemies, but *solely* to make sure that other players can't sneak up and prevent me from getting kill credit.

As for my guild, I'm the guild leader. If I find out that a rogue in my guild is consistently doing this to other players, the selfish little **** is *gone*. Everyone gets a warning at first because mistakes do happen, but when it becomes a pattern, I'm calling it as a toxic, callous player. There's no place for someone like that in my guild. My primary concern as guild leader is how members treat other people, regardless of whether or not they're in the guild or in the alliance. ALL other concerns are secondary.

greywynd · July 2022

Jumping in to attack a mob someone else has already engaged is inherently bad form. Right up there with dragging mobs you can't handle into someone else's fight to lose the mob.

hadestemplar · July 2022

hustin1 said:
Tonight I had some rogue jump into my fight, pop a daily, and steal my kills for perhaps the hundredth time since I started playing. As a guild leader it got me thinking about an appropriate policy toward players who are toxic in this manner. My policy is the first time you get a warning, and the next time you're terminated. I'd like to hear from other guild leaders about what you all think, though. How do you handle players who do this to other players? More broadly, how do you deal with toxic players?

From very start, is this player( rogue) part of your guild or not? Cuz from comment I understand it is.

Now as far I know, guild internal issues are their own internal matters to solve them.
You are guild lead, so you decide what kind internal policies you have.
What's tolerateed, what is encournaged or demanded and what is forbiden. Guild is your, and you run as how you like.

Either you want friendly guild or toxic ones. As example in eve online where one guild: Goonswarm Federation, which moto where: We did not come to ruin game, we come to ruin your game...
Toxicity where not only allowed, it was encouraged.

The lead decide, so you have to choose.

Now I assume this player(rogue) who keep stealing kills, if he is part of your guild, perhaps he wanted to assit you? Help to kill, or etc. For next time offer to make party before killing. Same thing explain to all guild members.
If this player is not part of your guild, well. Welcome to mmo, some players are toxic and love it. As I wrote above about Goonswarm Federation. Some just like to ruin someone's game.

arazith07 · July 2022

As a guild leader, I would only jump in if it was a guildy doing this to another guildy or alliance member. Otherwise often times the player "stealing" kills likely had it done to them and they are just trying to get the quest done instead trying to be toxic.

greywynd · July 2022

Being a victim does not legitimatize victimizing others.

hustin1 · August 2022

hadestemplar#9918 said:

hustin1 said:
Tonight I had some rogue jump into my fight, pop a daily, and steal my kills for perhaps the hundredth time since I started playing. As a guild leader it got me thinking about an appropriate policy toward players who are toxic in this manner. My policy is the first time you get a warning, and the next time you're terminated. I'd like to hear from other guild leaders about what you all think, though. How do you handle players who do this to other players? More broadly, how do you deal with toxic players?
From very start, is this player( rogue) part of your guild or not? Cuz from comment I understand it is.

Now as far I know, guild internal issues are their own internal matters to solve them.
You are guild lead, so you decide what kind internal policies you have.
What's tolerateed, what is encournaged or demanded and what is forbiden. Guild is your, and you run as how you like.

Either you want friendly guild or toxic ones. As example in eve online where one guild: Goonswarm Federation, which moto where: We did not come to ruin game, we come to ruin your game...
Toxicity where not only allowed, it was encouraged.

The lead decide, so you have to choose.

Now I assume this player(rogue) who keep stealing kills, if he is part of your guild, perhaps he wanted to assit you? Help to kill, or etc. For next time offer to make party before killing. Same thing explain to all guild members.
If this player is not part of your guild, well. Welcome to mmo, some players are toxic and love it. As I wrote above about Goonswarm Federation. Some just like to ruin someone's game.

No, he wasn't in my guild. We can't name and shame here so I won't name him or his guild.

theelusiveone · August 2022

This is not a clear cut, either or thing.

First of all, it's clearly bad game design in the first place. This is a MMO and if the game is designed so that multiple people can't get credit at the same time, it should be changed. I recall that being an issue in some module, where something was clearly designed to need multiple people, yet only the kill hit got credit or chance at drops or whatever it was. There Cryptic actually changed it so just having hit the mob was enough. Players should never be penalized for helping other players out.

But if I got just a single complaint about one of my members doing kill "stealing" I would probably ignore it, especially if outside of my alliance.
But if I got several complaints from multiple people I would look into it and have a chat with my member about it. Might be they were not even aware of it being a problem and so I would just inform them to think more about it.
If they were doing it on purpose as in being actually toxic, I would suspect their attitude would shine through in chat, giving me reason to kick them out.
I have had complaints before where I thought it was a minor thing, but after a chat with the member where I was then verbally abused and insulted, it became very clear this was a toxic player, so was immediately booted out. Then entire alliance was informed never to invite this player again.

As with most things involving human beings, it's not always easy to figure out.

hadestemplar · August 2022

hustin1 said:

No, he wasn't in my guild. We can't name and shame here so I won't name him or his guild.

Well then there is nothing you can do.

Some players are more friendly, some as I wrote before are more toxic, some selfish and unaware that are other players.
You can pm him and offer to hunt together.

powerpuff · August 2022

This is just one reason why I never did that stupid fetch question in Well Of Dragons - until forced to do so when it became an adventure and I needed it for completion.

aslan3775 · August 2022

The original Sharandar was worse until they addressed (kind of) this issue. Not saying Fetch is good or the current Sharandar is good. But trying to save the Druids from the Powries in the original Sharandar was a pain in the (insert favorite Hamster here).

In the past they have addressed this by writing the quests a bit differently so that multiple people could get credit for the same mob or that the respawn rate was improved. But it isn't consistent. Barovia has issues with this problem (re: Curious Barovians for Shadow of Strahd weekly), Chult has this issue, but is much better with the Batiri Quest from Rygolt (ie: if you stand next to the scout who was released, you will get credit). WoD was a mixed bag--Fetch was stupid (for multiple reasons) and you didn't get credit if someone got there first, but you could get credit for the black dragon mobs for the Interception quest (sometimes).

That doesn't fix the current issue that the OP is stating, but it does mean that they can address rude behavior like this by changing the way the quest is rewarded.

Imho, kicking someone out of a guild won't fix bad behavior. I think it is great that a guild would set behavior expectations, but a toxic player will just find another guild.

rikitaki · August 2022

hustin1 said:
I ran six alts through Sharandar weeklies last night. At no time was there more than one instance. I always switch to a lightly-populated instance as soon as I can. There was no option last night.

I'll spell out the scenario from last night that really got my blood boiling. I'm running 17 alts through Sharandar and this *exact* scenario has happened at least four times in the past two weeks.

And now the perspective of all the other players on the map: There is a psycho that for hours forces multiple quests to halt by killing all the relevant mobs on one alt after another.
...
New Sharandar was a peak of forced PvP in Neverwinter. It is not a bad design, it is a malicious design. They knew everyone ends up annoyed and angry - but it keeps the players occupied for a significantly longer period of time, so it is a win anyway.
That area was designed to make you fed up with other players and here you are = mission accomplished. There is a happy, overjoyed dev somewhere out there.

plasticbat · August 2022

rikitaki said:

hustin1 said:
I ran six alts through Sharandar weeklies last night. At no time was there more than one instance. I always switch to a lightly-populated instance as soon as I can. There was no option last night.

I'll spell out the scenario from last night that really got my blood boiling. I'm running 17 alts through Sharandar and this *exact* scenario has happened at least four times in the past two weeks.
And now the perspective of all the other players on the map: There is a psycho that for hours forces multiple quests to halt by killing all the relevant mobs on one alt after another.

Once upon of time, I was that psycho that cleaned up every bounty of all 3 regions of selected instance as soon as it pops when I cycled through my characters. I did not camp on the spot. If someone was camping or engaging, I would not bother with that bounty and just moved to the next one. I wrote down the time they would spawn and went there at the right time. I killed them fast and most of the time, there were nobody else.

bigman99 · August 2022

Speaking as a guild leader, a long time mmo player and as a guy who likes to fish(it becomes relevant) @greywynd is right on the mark of jumping on an already engaged mob: very bad form, just rude. It is equivalent to another person coming to the exact spot I am currently fishing, dropping their line right next to mine, tangling my line, and trying to run off. There would be harsh words, at the very least. That being said, also as a guild leader, I'm not into policing these activities of my members. I would not bring it up with the offending member unless it was a fellow alliance member that they wronged, a friend or fellow guild leader asked.

silente07 · August 2022

It’s like chain farming, last hit gets the chain. Players do it on purpose.

Hard to call folks out because they don’t care and their leaders may not either.

In ANY game dispute, I asked for screenshots or vids. That way with proof it prevents the he said she said.
Unfortunately the game has its healthy share of jerks and now with instances reduced, you can’t get away from them.
But never did I call a buddy with a killer dps, to follow such a jerk all over the instance kill stealing till he got the message.
Because that would be wrong.

pitshade · August 2022

Multiple players can get chains from the same manes.

silente07 · August 2022

> @pitshade said:
> Multiple players can get chains from the same manes.

I can tell you on console I made 11 Nightspie lures without buying parts and not once during farming did two chains ever drop.
In fact we put striker companions away so they wouldn’t get the kill to not lose a chain.

pitshade · August 2022

We use to farm them in groups. As long as the players aren't in the same party, they get drops independent of each other. We would be in queue group for its chat and I know many times multiple players got chains from the same manes.

grogthemagnif · August 2022

hustin1 said:
Tonight I had some rogue jump into my fight, pop a daily, and steal my kills for perhaps the hundredth time since I started playing. As a guild leader it got me thinking about an appropriate policy toward players who are toxic in this manner. My policy is the first time you get a warning, and the next time you're terminated. I'd like to hear from other guild leaders about what you all think, though. How do you handle players who do this to other players? More broadly, how do you deal with toxic players?

As a Guild leader, you get 1 point for the killing blow (and any bragging rights for last blow) and whoever did the most damage to the enemy gets the kill. The party shares the xp equally.

mithrosnomore · August 2022

It wouldn't be so bad if every class was given a DPS option.
You want to run around as a solo healer or tank? That's your choice.

But not every class has that. And as someone that plays a paladin main I feel it every time I play. In the open world as I am trying to beat down a big enemy (with any actual threat to my character being very rare) someone comes up and *poof*! Their HP bar disappears.

If it is enough to deny me credit it is very irritating.

Not world-shattering, but irritating. Yeah, I can go find another group, but you know who else could have found another group? The person that jumped into mine and made me their unwilling tank.

But to the original question? I am not in a guild, but how do you even prove this? Do you expect people to screenshot such an event, track down the guild leader (and they may have to have a screenshot to read the offender's name/guild name depending upon how quickly this happens), and then get your e-mail address to send you the evidence?

Because why should I believe a stranger if they accuse one of my guildies of doing this (and why might the accuser even think that the guild would care enough about it to go through all of those steps to begin with)? They would have to have evidence, and it doesn't seem that anyone would go through the trouble of collecting that and bringing their case to a guild leader because they wouldn't expect results.

If you see any guildies being jerks, and you can lay that out in some guild rules posted somewhere, then punish them as you see fit, but I wouldn't expect strangers to be reporting people or believe that all such people making these reports were being completely honest about things.

dietzgen · August 2022

Tbh I dont understand the terms of KS on this game. Since the system wont allow that. as long yo tag it somehow you will get the quest done. The problem maybe you dint even have the chance sometimes to tag, since some naughty player decide to TV/Toad/Golden Touch or using dailies to kill a mob that have low rate or long spawn rate/timer. But that cant be called KS either, since the definition came from a game with last hit kill got the credit system, unlike Neverwinter.

For example because there is Neverwinter Recruitment event I decided to recycle some of my alts, and do the leveling adventure. Do you remember the quest on Whispering Cavern that you need to kill some Drow Warrior, Priest and some Druegar? As far I know there are only 3 spawn spot dor the Warrior and Priest, so someone that probably got a same quest with me kill a pack, and because of that I just go to the other pack, and suddenly that person PM me and said that I am KS his mobs. Well i just block that dude, as simple as that, go on killing another packs.

I think this example is another form of what this thread about, you got a quest to kill certain mob, somoene else is ahead of you and you need to wait again, and thats it. That is not KS.

KS is about you already hit the mobs and need the last hit, but someone take the last hit from you and you got nothing after all the effort you do to the mobs, all gone with the winds, and the troll got this wicked LoL on their face. But this game doesnt count the quest completion like that, as long you participate, you can get the credit.

Ok, there are some cases like Sharandar Bounties that got 5 minutes spawn timer and it not always the Bounties that spawn. My suggestion is just try to communicate to the ppl that camping on the spot.

crow · August 2022

Blamers and framers are plenty, as are their misconceptions.

Something you do not own cannot be stolen from you. You think you can own mobs because of [fill in here your reason]? No. You don't. There is no discussion. And yet, some players keep accusing other players of stealing something some players have never owned in the first place. The audacity and stupidity in this behavior is remarkable.

If somebody wants to sh*t on you because he feels entitled to something he does not own, fell free to tell him to FO, as you are not the villain here

.

grogthemagnif · August 2022

hustin1 said:
Tonight I had some rogue jump into my fight, pop a daily, and steal my kills for perhaps the hundredth time since I started playing. As a guild leader it got me thinking about an appropriate policy toward players who are toxic in this manner. My policy is the first time you get a warning, and the next time you're terminated. I'd like to hear from other guild leaders about what you all think, though. How do you handle players who do this to other players? More broadly, how do you deal with toxic players?

Where was the fight? I need the answer for context.

grogthemagnif · August 2022

crow#2304 said:
Blamers and framers are plenty, as are their misconceptions.

Something you do not own cannot be stolen from you. You think you can own mobs because of [fill in here your reason]? No. You don't. There is no discussion. And yet, some players keep accusing other players of stealing something some players have never owned in the first place. The audacity and stupidity in this behavior is remarkable.

If somebody wants to sh*t on you because he feels entitled to something he does not own, fell free to tell him to FO, as you are not the villain here .

Crow thinks everyone should 'tolerate ' bad behavior, I don't think so.

hustin1 · September 2022

grogthemagnif said:

hustin1 said:
Tonight I had some rogue jump into my fight, pop a daily, and steal my kills for perhaps the hundredth time since I started playing. As a guild leader it got me thinking about an appropriate policy toward players who are toxic in this manner. My policy is the first time you get a warning, and the next time you're terminated. I'd like to hear from other guild leaders about what you all think, though. How do you handle players who do this to other players? More broadly, how do you deal with toxic players?
Where was the fight? I need the answer for context.

I was in the third Sharandar area, doing the quest where you have to get three twig blights and six dryads. I had just engaged a group when out of nowhere a certain TR rode up, popped his daily, remounted, and rode off, all in the space of two seconds.

I agree with you about crow. Apparently there's no one else on the server but him, and if someone else has already engaged enemies, apparently he thinks nothing of jumping in and stealing kill credit -- because we didn't write the Neverwinter code or buy the server hardware, or something equally absurd.

crow · September 2022

grogthemagnif said:

crow#2304 said:
Blamers and framers are plenty, as are their misconceptions.

Something you do not own cannot be stolen from you. You think you can own mobs because of [fill in here your reason]? No. You don't. There is no discussion. And yet, some players keep accusing other players of stealing something some players have never owned in the first place. The audacity and stupidity in this behavior is remarkable.

If somebody wants to sh*t on you because he feels entitled to something he does not own, fell free to tell him to FO, as you are not the villain here .
Crow thinks everyone should 'tolerate ' bad behavior, I don't think so.

Something isn't bad just because you think it is.

The topic of this thread should actually be:
"I am entitled to judge people because they don't play by the rules I've made up"

or even simpler:
"A Karen's complaint"

greywynd · September 2022

So, people shouldn't have manners, common decency, etc. so long as they get their own stuff taken care of? Selfish attitude. Which is what we've been discussing.

Question to guild leaders re: your policy toward kill-stealing

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