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When removing gear makes you better
adinosii
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
I have said it before. The current system is fundamentally broken. It is just not right when the best thing to do with your shiny new gear is to remove it.
(edit: note that this only applies to scaled content when you are above the cap).
Here is an example. Those are my stats when I enter the Cloak Tower - out of combat - no buffs. On the left are my stats with all my gear. Then I remove 4 of my 5 mount collars and get the stats on the right.
As you can see, my damage stays the same, but with the exception of Critical Severity, all my percentages go up. (And the reason critical severity went down was that one of the collars gave a bonus to that).
In other words, removing gear made me better. This is just wrong.
WRONG...WRONG...WRONG
I enjoy having a sense of progression. ...nonsense like this takes it away.
It is almost as if you do not understand that many players are motivated by a sense of progression - In fact, I would call that one of the core themes of D&D.....the endless loop of improving your skills and your gear.
This...this is something else, altogether.
(edit: note that this only applies to scaled content when you are above the cap).
Here is an example. Those are my stats when I enter the Cloak Tower - out of combat - no buffs. On the left are my stats with all my gear. Then I remove 4 of my 5 mount collars and get the stats on the right.
As you can see, my damage stays the same, but with the exception of Critical Severity, all my percentages go up. (And the reason critical severity went down was that one of the collars gave a bonus to that).
In other words, removing gear made me better. This is just wrong.
WRONG...WRONG...WRONG
I enjoy having a sense of progression. ...nonsense like this takes it away.
It is almost as if you do not understand that many players are motivated by a sense of progression - In fact, I would call that one of the core themes of D&D.....the endless loop of improving your skills and your gear.
This...this is something else, altogether.
Hoping for improvements...
Post edited by adinosii on
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Now they give common stats and they give too much IL and low combined ratting, so they dont compensate the increment in IL.
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
1. Remove combined ratings from the game. (except for select cases)
2. Set all default starting stats at a flat 25%.
3. Each Item Level adds 5 stats or equivalent value.
4. Scaling upward adds 20% of Item Level differential as combined rating. Scaling downward subtracts 20% of the Item Level difference in combined rating. (50,000 IL scaling to 25,000 IL would lose 5,000 to all ratings)
A 50,000 ilevel character would have an average stat value of about 41.666%, with a lot of allocation control, while a new character's stats will average 25%. You never gain stats by removing stuff. It doesn't matter where your stats come from anymore. You just need one column to show the percentage. The stat percentages barely drop when you scale. There is room to raise the caps to 100%, and room for growth exists up to and exceeding 100,000 IL.
* * * * * E X A M P L E S of G E A R * * * * *
* Unbolstered Mythic Companion (4,500 IL) - 1,500 in every stat, 2,500 for augmented stats
* Bolstered Mythic Companion (9,000 IL) - 3,000 in every stat, 5,000 for augmented stats
* Mythic Staldorf Companion Power (1,500 IL) - plus 7.5% Combat Advantage
* Legendary Barbed Insignia of Dominance (200 IL) - 500 Power, 500 Forte
* Mythic Barbed Insignia of Dominance (400 IL) - 1000 Power, 1000 Forte
* Enchantment, Rank 15 (200 IL) +1000 total added to specified stats
* Practical Collar V (1000 IL) - Effect +200cr
* Other Collar V (1000 IL) - Effect +100cr
* Headwear (1000 IL) - 1250 CritSeverity, 1250 CombatAdvantage, 2500 Defense
* Armor (1000 IL) - 2500 CritSeverity, 2500 Defense
* Handwear (1000 IL) - 1250 CritStrike, 1250 CritAvoid, 2500 Defense
* Weapon (1000 IL) - 2500 Combat Advantage, 1250 Accuracy, 1250 CritStrike
* Offhand (1000 IL) - 2500 Combat Advantage, 1250 Accuracy, 1250 CritStrike
* Footwear (1000 IL) - 1250 Awareness, 1250 CritAvoid, 2500 Defense
* Neck (1000 IL) - 2500 CritStrike, 2500 CritSeverity
* StatRing (1000 IL) - Effects plus 3750 PrimaryStat, 1250 SecondaryStat
* Statless Ring (1000 IL) - Effects plus 100cr
* Waist (1000 IL) - 2500 Defense, 2500 SecondaryStat
* Shirt (1000 IL) - 2500 PrimaryStat, 2500 SecondaryStat
* Leggings (1000 IL) - 2500 PrimaryStat, 2500 SecondaryStat
* Mythic Artifact (900 IL) - 4500 total stats [iLevel doubled for these]
* Campaign Boon ( 0 IL ) - no changes
* Stronghold Offense/Defense Boon (600 IL) - 200cr, plus adds 200 Feature Stat per structure level
* Stronghold Utility/PvP Boon ( 0 IL ) - no change
* Companion Gear (1000 IL) - 200cr, +2000 allocated to specified stats
* Runestone Rank15 (200 IL) - 1000 to SpecificStat
* MountCombatPower Unbolstered (2,000 IL) 200cr plus ability
* MountCombatPower FullBolster (4,000 IL) 400cr plus ability
* MountEquipPower Unbolstered (2,000 IL) 400cr plus 4000 in specified stat
* MountEquipPower FullBolster (4,000 IL) 800cr plus 8000 in specified stat
Since we are scaled back in dungeons the only time that having a high item level will benefit the player is when they are questing or doing content on the open world, like... running influence, doing dailies, generally stuff that isn't all that difficult to begin with.
Basicaly once your character hits 35k Your done. You will never get any more dmg or HP in any of the dungeons that you run because of the scaling>
Its part of the reason why I dont use defensive enchantments on my characters. I dont play a tank so they are basicaly useless, all they do is drop my offensive stats and boost my dmg by 113 when im questing, not a big loss
Yes, I still have that stuff.
Guess what. I lost some HP, but all my other ratings skyrocketed. I went to Avernus and I was kicking butt -- big time.
As for weapons: I'm in the process of transitioning my alts back to the Drowned set. Yup. I might even break out the old Dusk boots.
I concur with the OP -- the system is bass-ackwards.
Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
Using item level as a base for calculations is insane.
When I re-read this from above
"1st - Characters start with 50% in all stats, which becomes reduced slowly as iLvl goes up."
Stats go DOWN as Item Level rises... just wow. Just absolutely unbelievable. You couldnt make this up.
> Well, the same applies to every piece of scaled content, if you are above the limit. Your base damage is unchanged, and your percentages go up. THe net effect is exactly the same in every case.
Which means you do way less damage than someone with lower IL in said scaled content.. what a joke. Nice "progression."
This is why some players are complaining about their "sense of progression" basically disappearing.
A"veteran" with n IL of 54K, and 50% stats would (everything else being equal) get outperformed by a 35K IL player with 60% if they are both at capped base damage.
And that's why my "sense of progression" is desappearing
Simply put, if I get a better weapon, I am stronger. If I put my armor on, I survive better. If I take my armor off, I die more often.
None of this is true anymore, and I can't think of any other instances where this is true in RPG gaming (though I would welcome some examples).
In short, within a genre where players are extremely forgiving (and even accepting) of nonsense like casting fireballs and the existence of beholders, this game has somehow brought about mass disbelief.
That is a notable accomplish in the world of fiction, but perhaps for all the wrong reasons.
I'm not going to beat my head against the wall. I'm just not. My current plans are to sit it out for a few weeks and spend most of my time playing something else. I'm sitting here in the original Sharandar with level-appropriate gear, higher-than-normal ILVL, and I'm getting mauled. And, as a healer build, I can't kill anything. I find myself out of divinity, then rapidly running out healing potions.
I'm sick of this already. The only reason I'm even playing is to try to get the redcap armor before it goes poof. Then I'll work on getting existing Sharandar rewards for my alts. On 2/9, I plan on watching from the sidelines. Just because a designer goes on a sadistic streak doesn't mean I have to play it.
Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
P.S. I'll never forget my first RPG on PC. Gold box Curse of the Azure Bonds. I even read the book! Good times.
Having played Neverwinter Online for less that six months, I would consider myself a newer player. I came in expecting something more along the lines of Neverwinter Nights (played 1 & 2). Both truly amazing games that really captured that D&D feeling with character flexibility and superb downloadable player created content. Being able to do multiplayer with friends was icing on the cake.
I like this game, more so in the beginning of January, but to the OP - the D&D feeling is on life support with this scaling and IL calculation. Getting better equipment is no longer useful until the endgame and then only if you do nothing but endgame. Scaling is a problem, and in addition to the counter intuitive scaling calculations, there is what seems like more numerous mob adds that appear on top of you. Then in open zones the re-spawn timer goes off and new mobs appear as you are still fighting the original group. Plus - what is going on with the aggro radius?
The flexibilty of characters and classes in NWN 2 was mentioned. This is an important part of D&D. I played D&D back when Elf was a class, so I remember when D&D introduced multiclassing, and then feats, opening the door to true character design. I understand in MMORPG's it may present game balance challenges by allowing too much flexibility, but there needs to be more character design based on the character and less on the items you get. I was surprised when reading through my first few NWO character build guides it was mostly based on "get this BiS item here and this specific companion there." There wasn't much about what the character did. The same items even showed up in other guides. The class seemed secondary to the gear. And can't forget about race. I can't tell you how many times that I read that race doesn't matter...unless you can get a Dragonborn unlock.
I will continue to play when I can. The game is still fun, if not a bit more unnecessarily challenging at times, but I have come to stop expecting D&D, but instead started thinking that this is just a video game with some D&D references, If there is another online game out there that can replicate that D&D feeling better, I may find myself migrate there.
> MMO game is about grinding. To have less grinding (you still need to grind), you spend money. If you cannot deal with grinding, this game is not for you.
Grinding for what, now? There's literally no reason to grind for anything as equipment doesn't actually make your character any better. Every piece of equipment in this game gives it's item level x 15 in stats (except for the underdark rings, which are underpowered) and we're scaled even in the new dungeon. Yes, our item levels will go up, but in reality our characters never progress because this whole system is based on percents and (almost) every piece of gear gives the same percent of stats based on it's item level (100%).
* Ribcage Armor and other gear that have a superior effect, since effects don't scale
* Boons - altogether these add about 10% extra damage and some defense, and are immune to scaling
* Chain of Scales and/or Forger's Box - if you don't have them yet, are immune to scaling
* Liiras Bell and/or Alliance Battle Horn - If you don't have them, might add damage, and are immune to scaling
* Storyteller's Journal Artifacts - still very good equipment, even when scaled
* Weapon and Armor Enchantments - These are worth more than their IL level, so they do not scale badly
* Primary Companion - whether augment or battle, is worth more than IL level, so it does not scale down badly.
* Tenebrous Enchantment - for it's IL level, is worth more than other enchantments
* Main Weapon & Offhand - the set bonus does not scale.
Lionheart, Celestial, Elemental, Stronghold, Sunset, Alabaster, and some Chult versions are decent
* Other - AD & Upgrade Tokens
If scaling is applied -- and I am OK with it if done right -- it should never cause these things to happen. Maybe some sort of diminishing returns (but still positive) for higher gear in lower zones could work; in low level zones better gear would make you better, even if the gains were, say, only 40% after scaling (that is, a 10K gain in TIL gives you an effective 4K addition to scaled item level. Then, if you are a 40K IL player in a 25K zone, the overage -- 15K -- only gets 40% applied, so you scale to a 31K IL player. At least you would be somewhat better than a 25K player, instead of essentially the same (or worse in some cases).
I do like how the changes mean individuals can't just run ahead of tanks and healers in dungeons and expect to survive. I like that it restores a certain amount of tactics instead of just one-shotting, where everyone just tries to maximize damage, tanks don't have to tank and healers don't need to heal. But level 20 players should not be doing close to equal damage to level 80s in Cloak Tower or Cragmire. Maybe the 80s could be scaled down somewhat but they should still be a fair bit stronger than a 20 in lower zones. The current system, as implemented, does not. It's broken even if there are some aspects of it I want to like (such as the end of lone wolf DPS charging ahead of tanks and healers on dungeons, and a returned need for tactics and teamwork).
there was me and 4 lvl 80s
top damage dealer was my rogue but to be fair i did die twice